sidereal vs. tropical, Vedic vs. non-vedic

[Guest guest]

Respected Dasji,

Thank you for your frank revelations. And thank you for unabashedly sharing

truth. Without truth, although it may make us uncomfortable occasionally, there

is no progress. If there is no spiritual progress then what's the point?

Please continue to challenge our conceptions of what is real and what is not,

what is true and what is not, and what is valuable and what is not.

 

Sarva

 

 

 

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

[Guest guest]

Hello Sarva,

 

Thanks for the encouraging words.

 

And this is to others also, especially Natabara, regarding his comments

on the Pyramids in South America, and the relevence of the Tropical Sun.

 

Two parts: Tropical Sun relevence to life on earth, and my personal quandry.

 

Tropical Sun: I understand the relevence of the Tropical Sun to life on

Earth. I agree therefore that the seasons are a big part of our lives.

I'm not sure that that makes it a good foundation for astrology

however. The point being, "Do the signs in the Zodiac have power or not.

Are they the signs, or were they just convenient 2000 years ago as

markers. This is the point. How much do the real signs in the Zodiac

matter or not?"

 

If we use the Tropical Sun's relationship to our planet to establish the

signs begin points, and then apply those to the other much more distant

planets, are we doing the right thing? From experience personally, I

find the Tropical positions for the other planets incorrect.

 

 

 

Personal Quandry: I am not a "pure" person fully in Vedic terms.

Meaning, I have not mastered control over my senses. Only one who is

above the sway of the senses is eligible to be considered pure. One who

is still under the sway of their senses and material thinking mind, such

as myself, must struggle with duality in their own person. I am in this

struggle too.

 

I have been given alot of training in Vedic matters, and it makes total

sense to me, but my materially conditioned mind still laments for what I

think I don't have. This causes me to suffer the pain and frustration

suffered by all of us, who are materially conditioned.

 

When I stand up so clearly for the Vedic conception, I do so therefore

with some trepidation and fear. I have, through my Vedic path,

essentially cut off most of my ties to the society in which I live, and

I move therefore like a covert operator through life. It's not at all

easy, to still be desiring fulfillment here, yet knowing that it is

ultimately fruitless or unsatisfying.

 

So I have the "troubled mind" that comes to one who tries to do what I'm

doing.

 

Seeing this, some persons on the various "Vedic" paths, put me down,

saying "if you're not happy perfectly, then why preach your views". This

makes sense, but not really as we have to try to enter that space

through actions, words and thoughts, and true, for awhile, a good while,

we're imperfect in our attempts.

 

Entering Veda land must be done largely on faith, as realization is not

there at first. This takes support, hence the Sadhu Sanga, or

association of devoted souls on the path, is all important for the

required support to keep going.

 

As the movement I come from (Hare Krishna) is falling apart all over the

West rapidly, and since I live in a city where it doesn't exist anyway,

I have few to no friends here. I'm also unmarried, and raise two

teenagers who attend public schools, so on all sides and in all ways I'm

quite alone. This list is my largest, only, or main association.

 

So when I get resistence here, it is, like the grocery store, like

everywhere, a challenging place for me to be. It's not easy. I feel very alone.

 

But I can't turn back because only Vedic thought makes sense to me

fully. Everything else makes me feel like I'm ignoring our spiritual

birthright and true eternal heritage.

 

So all in all, I feel alone. When I receive positive and supporting

comments, it helps me.

 

I hope I can become stronger, more firm, more realized, in all these

Vedic matters. That alone it seems will end my personal internal pains.

 

Thanks for listening,

 

Das Goravani

 

 

 

 

 

 

2852 Willamette St # 353

Eugene OR USA 97405

 

or

Fax: 541-343-0344

 

"Goravani Jyotish"

Vedic/Hindu Astrology Software

[Guest guest]

Das As someone who very much enjoys your sharing,I hope you will continue to

share your wisdom and experience.Perhaps in our sharing we shall be able to

help some other cyberspace star gazers.I will repeat a suggestion I made a

while ago,I think it would be of interest for list participants to say how

they specifically used their knowledge of astrology to grow and serve others

using their own charts as application examples.Das you have perhaps modeled

this sharing the most of anyone on the list.Love Dave Birr

[Guest guest]

Hello Das and Glist,

 

Our life here is to merge with The Ancient One, the original form of God,

Deity, Krishna.

 

In creation there are patterns. These patterns reflect wisdom. If we were

in another galaxy couldn't we still practice astrology? Would there not be a

moving zodiac and also a sidereal way of looking at things?

 

Vedic teachings are holy.

 

Good things have come from the study of western astrology.

 

If one is finding a closer life to God via Vedic, God bless.

 

If one is finding a closer life to God via Tropical, God Bless.

 

There will continue to be fools that practice Vedic and western astrology

 

Thanks for your attention,

Michael Baruch

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>Das <>

>gjlist

>gjlist

>Re: [gjlist] sidereal vs. tropical, Vedic vs. non-vedic

>Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:47:53 -0700

>

>

>Hello Sarva,

>

>Thanks for the encouraging words.

>

>And this is to others also, especially Natabara, regarding his comments

>on the Pyramids in South America, and the relevence of the Tropical Sun.

>

>Two parts: Tropical Sun relevence to life on earth, and my personal

>quandry.

>

>Tropical Sun: I understand the relevence of the Tropical Sun to life on

>Earth. I agree therefore that the seasons are a big part of our lives.

>I'm not sure that that makes it a good foundation for astrology

>however. The point being, "Do the signs in the Zodiac have power or not.

>Are they the signs, or were they just convenient 2000 years ago as

>markers. This is the point. How much do the real signs in the Zodiac

>matter or not?"

>

>If we use the Tropical Sun's relationship to our planet to establish the

>signs begin points, and then apply those to the other much more distant

>planets, are we doing the right thing? From experience personally, I

>find the Tropical positions for the other planets incorrect.

>

>

>

>Personal Quandry: I am not a "pure" person fully in Vedic terms.

>Meaning, I have not mastered control over my senses. Only one who is

>above the sway of the senses is eligible to be considered pure. One who

>is still under the sway of their senses and material thinking mind, such

>as myself, must struggle with duality in their own person. I am in this

>struggle too.

>

>I have been given alot of training in Vedic matters, and it makes total

>sense to me, but my materially conditioned mind still laments for what I

>think I don't have. This causes me to suffer the pain and frustration

>suffered by all of us, who are materially conditioned.

>

>When I stand up so clearly for the Vedic conception, I do so therefore

>with some trepidation and fear. I have, through my Vedic path,

>essentially cut off most of my ties to the society in which I live, and

>I move therefore like a covert operator through life. It's not at all

>easy, to still be desiring fulfillment here, yet knowing that it is

>ultimately fruitless or unsatisfying.

>

>So I have the "troubled mind" that comes to one who tries to do what I'm

>doing.

>

>Seeing this, some persons on the various "Vedic" paths, put me down,

>saying "if you're not happy perfectly, then why preach your views". This

>makes sense, but not really as we have to try to enter that space

>through actions, words and thoughts, and true, for awhile, a good while,

>we're imperfect in our attempts.

>

>Entering Veda land must be done largely on faith, as realization is not

>there at first. This takes support, hence the Sadhu Sanga, or

>association of devoted souls on the path, is all important for the

>required support to keep going.

>

>As the movement I come from (Hare Krishna) is falling apart all over the

>West rapidly, and since I live in a city where it doesn't exist anyway,

>I have few to no friends here. I'm also unmarried, and raise two

>teenagers who attend public schools, so on all sides and in all ways I'm

>quite alone. This list is my largest, only, or main association.

>

>So when I get resistence here, it is, like the grocery store, like

>everywhere, a challenging place for me to be. It's not easy. I feel very

>alone.

>

>But I can't turn back because only Vedic thought makes sense to me

>fully. Everything else makes me feel like I'm ignoring our spiritual

>birthright and true eternal heritage.

>

>So all in all, I feel alone. When I receive positive and supporting

>comments, it helps me.

>

>I hope I can become stronger, more firm, more realized, in all these

>Vedic matters. That alone it seems will end my personal internal pains.

>

>Thanks for listening,

>

>Das Goravani

>

>

>

>

>

>

>2852 Willamette St # 353

>Eugene OR USA 97405

>

> or

>Fax: 541-343-0344

>

>"Goravani Jyotish"

>Vedic/Hindu Astrology Software

>

>

 

______________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

Hello!

 

Please, dissipate my doubts.

 

In Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.21.4 we can read:

 

yadA meSa-tulayor vartate tadAho-rAtrANi samAnAni

 

When [the sun] passes through MeSa and TulA, the

durations of day and night are equal.

 

How do you interpret this information in favor of

siderial zodiac?

 

Ignat.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 06/29/2000 2:50:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

writes:

 

<<

Seeing this, some persons on the various "Vedic" paths, put me down,

saying "if you're not happy perfectly, then why preach your views". This

makes sense, but not really as we have to try to enter that space

through actions, words and thoughts, and true, for awhile, a good while,

we're imperfect in our attempts.

>>

 

. I've been thinking about this post for a day now, and just as I was

driving around and getting my son packed off for the weekend, I started

writing you to you in my head, which means everything I'm about to say has

been gathering energy for some time. Please excuse me if it's brazenly long.

 

Das, weeks ago, as I was reading you, it occurred to me what a difficult

position you are in. You left American society and found a place that showed

you Truth, a place that was entrenched and accepted in its indiginous

society...and then you had to come back.

 

The culture shock, after growing to maturity in another culture altogether,

must have been horrendous. Here's Mom and sister Sue and girls you used to

date all running their personality programs around you and waiting for you to

click right in as if you were never gone. The temptation to do this, to click

in and be your old self, is also horrendous, and some of it is unavoidable.

The fact that, generally, the folks in Eugene Oregon are probably about as

close to you philosophically as the third ring of Saturn probably makes it

that much worse.

 

I really feel for you, especially since I know that your heart and mind are

inspired with complete devotion; I can hear it in your voice, a person knows

love when they hear it. It makes my heart open to hear it, actually, because

the love of the mundane is vastly common, and the love of the divine is

incredibly rare. I'm sure other people who hear or read you feel the very

same way.

 

But isolation, like any other state of suffering, is karma, yes? I have been

thinking about this a lot lately, because I'm like you. I live in a tiny

Methodist town that grows corn and Jesus and spaghetti potlucks, and to me it

is literally a type of imprisonment. A few years ago I took up yoga and

meditation because in some sense I *knew * it was, and if I set my mind and

heart dead on enduring it I knew I could make it through with an even

temperament. More or less, anyway.

 

My success in this has been only mediocre, by the way.

 

I am here because of my son, and I would not be here if not for him. I have

to stick out the next five or six or ten years with him, because that's *my*

duty, to try to adjust to a cultural deadzone because it's the best and

safest place for him. I have to hide my non-Christian thinking from the rest

of the town, because I am afraid my utter incongruity is going to mess up his

chances for a normal childhood. My husband is gone most of the time because

he works in another state, and the people aroundhere, the other moms,

especially, are...well, it's really weird, because it seems no matter how I

frame my behavior or speech I run into this great chasm of hostility or

emnity or competitiveness. I'm just not...connecting, somehow. This is

especially painful for me since I have always been close to other women,

living in a sort of...sisterhood mode, where every woman I met was my sister

in some way.

 

Sigh. So. These women don't want to be my sisters. What can you do?

 

Anyway, here are these themes -- devotion, the search for wisdom and

understanding, imprisonment, and persecution. It's *gotta* be karma. In this

scenario, the freedom of the mind becomes an ultimate priority, because it's

the only thing left. You *must* find a place to speak. And when you say that

your Vedic brothers and sisters want to criticize you for "preaching",

because you are not "happy", this is another imprisonment, and a veiled

persecution. It's almost laughable. Of course you're not happy. You are

walking through your karma in mortal flesh and only the highest of the high

was able to dispense with this necessity altogether.

 

On the other hand, karma, being the way in which we suffer, is also the place

that teaches us to open our hearts. It shows where the innate personality

clashes with the world. My inability to solve these problems for myself in

the external world shows my strongest attachment; it reveals my flaws and the

ways in which I just *cannot* adjust, or refuse to the very bottom of my ego,

to adjust or surrender.

 

I just will not get up tomorrow morning, put on an apron, bake some cookies

and go get baptized. I just won't do that. So, it's not just the way I am

suffering, it's the way I am *choosing* to.

 

Every sign has a fatal flaw that puts it on the path, through individuation,

to divine union. Sagittarius strongly indicates that a maverick temperament,

coupled with the stubborn fixation on philosophy-as-reality, is going to land

the native in the emotional slammer one day, because his stubbornness put him

there. You know, some people aren't sensitive at all about what they are or

what they believe, they just take on the attitudes of their environment and

chug right along. They're not doing Sagittarius, the freedom-fighter, in

this life, they're doing something else that will end up being just as hard.

Every sign feels the inspiration of its archetype, and so every sign has to

know its modes of suffering, too. We can try to make internal compromises to

negotiate with our situation, or we can wait for the dashas to change and the

sentence to lift.

 

In the meantime, here in this place, you should be fully confident that you

can say what you want. *I* want to hear it, that's why I'm here. And with

the terrible tragedy winding its way through ISKON right now, it might just

be the most positive thing to supply a calm and peaceful voice that

demonstrates the pure, loving devotion of your faith.

 

Much love,

 

Vox

[Guest guest]

In India, both the nirayana and sayana zodiacs were in use. Sayana was used

for things such as ayana and season nirnaya because that was the convenient

way while the nirayana was used for astrological purposes. It is a

misconception that either of them are mutually exclusive. Like salt and

sugar, each had a place in the enjoyment of the celestial feast known as the

human experience.

 

 

 

 

>"Ignat Skoryh" <iskoryh

>gjlist

><gjlist >

>Re: [gjlist] sidereal vs. tropical, Vedic vs. non-vedic

>Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:17:37 +0300

>

>Hello!

>

>Please, dissipate my doubts.

>

>In Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.21.4 we can read:

>

> yadA meSa-tulayor vartate tadAho-rAtrANi samAnAni

>

> When [the sun] passes through MeSa and TulA, the

> durations of day and night are equal.

>

>How do you interpret this information in favor of

>siderial zodiac?

>

>Ignat.

>

>

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Ignat,

 

You wrote

"Hello!

 

Please, dissipate my doubts.

 

In Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.21.4 we can read:

 

yadA meSa-tulayor vartate tadAho-rAtrANi samAnAni

 

When [the sun] passes through MeSa and TulA, the

durations of day and night are equal.

 

How do you interpret this information in favor of

siderial zodiac?"

 

Dear Ignat

 

According to the tables given in the Nautical Almanac for the duration of day

and night, I only find 6 cases in which the days are equal in length.

 

At Latitude 10°N on the 8, 9 & 10 of March between 6:11 & 18:11

56°N 17, 18 & 19 March 6:09 &

18:09

36°S 23,24 & 25 March 6:06 &

18:06

20° N 28,29 & 30 Sep 5:50 &

17:50

25° N 1,2,& 3 Oct

5:50 & 17:50

10°N 4,5 & 6 Oct

5:48 & 17:48

 

As I do not have a computer program to calculate more precise timing, the

above table is close enough to give us an idea. If we apply those dates to

the tropical sky, we could say that when the Sun is in Tropical Aries on the

24, 24 and 25 of March, the duration of the day is equal at latitude 36°

south. And on the 28,29 & 30 Sep, the duration of the day is equal at

latitude 20° north. The rest of the dates do not correspond to either

tropical or sidereal. Therefore, the Srimad Bhagavatam, must be referring to

the sidereal zodiac, for the dimension of the demigods. Otherwise, why

Sukadeva Goswami took the trouble to give that sloka?

 

Furthermore, in SB 5.21.7 Sukadeva Goswami tell Pariksit Maharaja "My dear

King, as stated before, the learned say that the sun travels over all sides

of Manasottara Mountain in a circle whose length is 95,100,100 yojanas

[760,800,000] miles. On Manasottara mountain, due east of Mount Sumeru, is a

place known as Devadhani, possessed by king Indra. Similarly, in the south

is a place known as Samyamani, possessed by Yamaraja, in the west there is

place known as Nimlocani, possessed by Varuna, and in the north is a place

named Vibhavari, possessed by the moon-god. Sunrise, midday, sunset and

midnight occur in all those places according to specific times, thus engaging

all living entities in their various occupational duties and also making them

cease such duties"

 

Here we read of a mountain (Manasottara) due east of Mount Sumeru that has

four important residences of demigods placed at the four cardinal points. To

the east there is Devadhani, the city (purim) of Indra (Uranus?); to the

south there is Samyamani, the residence of Yamaraj; to the west there is

Nimlocani, the city of Varuna (Neptune?) and to the north there is Vibhavari,

the city of Chandra (the Moon?). If I do understand properly, Uranus is

opposite to Neptune, and Pluto is opposite to the Moon. They seem to be

situated on Manasottara mountain, which is somewhere in outer space as

described in Canto 5.21.2 "The sky between the earthly sphere and heavenly

sphere is called antariksa or outer space. It adjoins the top of the sphere

of earth and the bottom of that of heaven" And Canto 5.21.7 indicates

"Sunrise, midday, sunset and midnight occur in all those places according to

specific times", therefore, the measure of time is given for the sidereal

zodiac.

 

In SB 5.21.10 we read that the sun travels from residence to residence in 6

hours or taking 24 hours to travel from Uranus to Uranus. Our present frame

of mind has been conditioned to an specific description of the universe,

which may or may not be the real one. We can not say that present science

has been giving us the whole description of the universe. Although in

astronomy we have seen great advances and now modern telescopes are sending

amazing pictures of the universe, we can think that in 50 years from now, we

will see the present modern view of the universe as primitive. We followers

of the Vedic system accept the instructions given by the Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

In the book Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson page 90,

we see that Richard tried a computer program to calculate the annual

variation in the length of the day at various latitudes, using modern

astronomy. He found that at the latitude of Delhi the Bhagavatam rule works

fine, as long as the date is about 20 days away from the solstices. He says

" The rule's average error in the length of the day, over a full year period,

is about 6.6 minutes at Delhi. In contrast, the average error at Babylon is

about 9.1 minutes, and the rule doesn't work well during any time of the

year. One can argue that the rule is a practical approximation intended for

use in northern India. Certainly it is simpler to apply than the modern

calculations". Richard ends the next chapter by saying 'however, Srila

Prabhupada has said, "Whether the vedic calculations or the modern ones are

better may remain a mystery for others, but as far as we are concerned, we

accept the Vedic calculations to be correct" (SB 5.22.8p)"

 

Is my present interpretation of the sidereal zodiac positive? I would like

to hear further suggestions.

 

Yours in the search for the Vedic truth

 

Natabara das