Guest guest Posted June 27, 2000 Report Share Posted June 27, 2000 All, This is a really interesting Q, something that I have encouraged all the time, but some people in some quarters have tried to stamp it out, for varying reasons....but, like the old saying goes, Truth crushed to Earth, Shall raise Again....and so, it begins... I think that the whole question of one system being better than another, is flawed to begin with; it's NOT about what amounts to an Astrological urinating contest; it's about trying to help people with the knowledge that we have, be it Tropical, Sidereal, Indian or Western, or anywhere in-between. As someone who has, and continues to be, deeply immersed in what I call a Comparitve Study of both Western and Indian Astrological Systems, I can honestly say, that they BOTH have great merit, and, in all fairness, either systme, in the hnads of a skilled practicioner, could do well, both on the analysis AND the predictive sides. I think, when we consider the Western System, we have forgotten about WA's past - it has only been about a Century since WA has turned away from its more Old World Approach, and had taken on a more modern, Humanized Approach. Of course, this can be attributed to Dane Rudhyar, who, or course, was a student of many Eastern Schools of thought. It was his ,"The Astrology of Personality", that took WA from just predicting of what seemed to fated events, and re-formulated it to match the Western World, wherein which new opportunities sprang up nearly everywhere. I think that his work has been perhaps the greatest thing to ever happen to WA. But this does not negate the time-honored approaches in WA as well - indeed, thanks to people like Rob Hand, we are discovering that there are a wealth of info, that can be brought to bear in Astrology, in the Western Tradition, that bears a striking resemblence, to Jyotish. It is a fertile field fro research. I think that Western Astrologer summed-up all of these points beautifully in his the Creative Astrologer, and I would urge those so inclined to check out that book, and it doesn;t matter WHAT system you use; it's something that you can learn from. Yes, it is true, that WA tendds to focus on Signs, and in fact, Modern Astrology tends to focus on the description of the Personality in general; this to reflect the current attitude of our Society, and while I would agree with Chris Kevill when he talks about things going Spiritually Backward in some ways, we cannot deny the great strides that the Western World has taken to improve the Human Condition all over the Planet...there is many more miles to go before we sleep, but there has been great progress. So, the reason why WA doesn't tend to deal with prediction so much is due to the afore-mentioned items, already laid out, and I don;t have a problem with that, because I do not live in turn-of-the-Century England, when Life was extremely limited for nearly everyone; or, 19th Century America, when Slavery was stil the Law of Land, because, back then, irrespective of what kind of chart I had, the reality, would have been, that I would have had a difficult life. WA deals mainly with POTENTIALS that the person has at their disposal, and I think that, as India gets more and more into the Global Mainstream, its Astrological view will have to reflect this view, in order to keep pace with the times, and to continue to be of service to the public. Such scholars as KN Rao, and BV Raman, would agree with this. In fact, Bepin Behari's entire series of books, are written along these lines of thought; they're kind of like an Indian AStrological version of Dane Rudhyar's The Astrology of Personality, and those are books that I would recommened reading. But, while that;s said, we cannot deny the impressive history and tradition of Jyotish, its sophistication, its granduer, its scholarship; from Parasara, to Varahimira, to Mantreshwara, and others, down to Hart deFouw and KS Charak today. If we here in the West can learn nothing else from the Indians, we could learn the importance of maintaining an unbroken line of Astrological Disciplic Succession, wherein which all of our knowledge is passed down to following generations, and those generations use that knowledge to further their own researches, and so on. This is what I hope will indeed happen, in the years to come. Being a praticing AStrologer for some time now, and having had a good grounding in Jyotish for over 2 years, I have been rigorously experimenting with both styles, with many of my clients, as well as being keenly observant of my own Life, and I have to say, that both systems, comes shinig thru, in their own distinct ways. Often, themes will shine thru in both types of charts, and then, sometimes, it will only come out in one of them. If nothing else then, using both systems becomes an excellent way to double-check one's analytical and predictive accuracy. Many of my writings on this subject, along with the analyses of many horoscope subjects, have appeared on this List, at one point or another; all of them will appear on my upcoming website, due for lauch this Fall. My most recent thoughts on this subject, are called, The Humanism of Western Astrology and Jyotish, and is meant as an on-going series of articles, outlining many of the points that need clarification, as well as to applaud the instances where both systems clearly work hand-in-hand. More to come on this - stay tuned. In closing, please let me say, that to continue the debate as to which system, or zodiac, etc. is absolutely pointless and only serves to seperate us all - we need to check each other out, understand the other side of the fence, and see what it is that we can learn from each other. Ours, is a Global World, now - our AStrology should reflect this. Comments, Please.......... Peace, Mu'Min M. Bey Mu Get Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2000 Report Share Posted June 27, 2000 MUMin I enjoyed your comments.Are you familiar with the work of Robert Powell,Hermetic Astrology.He is an ardent Siderealist,but one of his colleagues William Bento,who studied with Dane Rudhyar has a view closer to my own.The different systems reflect different levels of our being.The sidereal chart does deal more with the soul and karma from life to life,and one's dharma.It also shows your place in the world,caste or social destiny.The tropical zodiac,geocentric chart shows more about the personality at a more superficial level of identity.The draconic zodiac which uses the position of the north node as 0 degrees aries shows some specifics of your karma.The heliocentric sidereal chart shows a very deep level of your spiritual identity.Hard helio aspects are very significant in terms of spiritual challenges,altho the aspects must be very tight orbs to function.You have the most freedom "apparent" at the tropical geocentric level.The deeper you go into the depths of spiritual identity,the harder your patterns are to alter.Their is a doctrine in the esoteric traditions that a part of our being never leaves the sun sphere even while our soul incarnates on earth,hence the relevance of the heliocentric perspective to that level of our identity. Dave Birr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2000 Report Share Posted June 27, 2000 Dear Mu'Min Bey, thank you for your thoughts. i have learned valuable lessons from w.a., but i have also found its not based on cosmic reality.[the precession of the planets;therefore the signs]. respectfully , karen townsend again...this is no disrespect to your oponions thanks for listening. Mu'Min Bey wrote: > All, > > This is a really interesting Q, something that I have > encouraged all the time, but some people in some > quarters have tried to stamp it out, for varying > reasons....but, like the old saying goes, Truth > crushed to Earth, Shall raise Again....and so, it > begins... > > I think that the whole question of one system being > better than another, is flawed to begin with; it's NOT > about what amounts to an Astrological urinating > contest; it's about trying to help people with the > knowledge that we have, be it Tropical, Sidereal, > Indian or Western, or anywhere in-between. As someone > who has, and continues to be, deeply immersed in what > I call a Comparitve Study of both Western and Indian > Astrological Systems, I can honestly say, that they > BOTH have great merit, and, in all fairness, either > systme, in the hnads of a skilled practicioner, could > do well, both on the analysis AND the predictive > sides. > > I think, when we consider the Western System, we have > forgotten about WA's past - it has only been about a > Century since WA has turned away from its more Old > World Approach, and had taken on a more modern, > Humanized Approach. Of course, this can be attributed > to Dane Rudhyar, who, or course, was a student of many > Eastern Schools of thought. It was his ,"The Astrology > of Personality", that took WA from just predicting of > what seemed to fated events, and re-formulated it to > match the Western World, wherein which new > opportunities sprang up nearly everywhere. I think > that his work has been perhaps the greatest thing to > ever happen to WA. > > But this does not negate the time-honored approaches > in WA as well - indeed, thanks to people like Rob > Hand, we are discovering that there are a wealth of > info, that can be brought to bear in Astrology, in the > Western Tradition, that bears a striking resemblence, > to Jyotish. It is a fertile field fro research. > > I think that Western Astrologer summed-up all of these > points beautifully in his the Creative Astrologer, and > I would urge those so inclined to check out that book, > and it doesn;t matter WHAT system you use; it's > something that you can learn from. > > Yes, it is true, that WA tendds to focus on Signs, and > in fact, Modern Astrology tends to focus on the > description of the Personality in general; this to > reflect the current attitude of our Society, and while > I would agree with Chris Kevill when he talks about > things going Spiritually Backward in some ways, we > cannot deny the great strides that the Western World > has taken to improve the Human Condition all over the > Planet...there is many more miles to go before we > sleep, but there has been great progress. > > So, the reason why WA doesn't tend to deal with > prediction so much is due to the afore-mentioned > items, already laid out, and I don;t have a problem > with that, because I do not live in > turn-of-the-Century England, when Life was extremely > limited for nearly everyone; or, 19th Century America, > when Slavery was stil the Law of Land, because, back > then, irrespective of what kind of chart I had, the > reality, would have been, that I would have had a > difficult life. WA deals mainly with POTENTIALS that > the person has at their disposal, and I think that, as > India gets more and more into the Global Mainstream, > its Astrological view will have to reflect this view, > in order to keep pace with the times, and to continue > to be of service to the public. Such scholars as KN > Rao, and BV Raman, would agree with this. > > In fact, Bepin Behari's entire series of books, are > written along these lines of thought; they're kind of > like an Indian AStrological version of Dane Rudhyar's > The Astrology of Personality, and those are books that > I would recommened reading. > > But, while that;s said, we cannot deny the impressive > history and tradition of Jyotish, its sophistication, > its granduer, its scholarship; from Parasara, to > Varahimira, to Mantreshwara, and others, down to Hart > deFouw and KS Charak today. If we here in the West can > learn nothing else from the Indians, we could learn > the importance of maintaining an unbroken line of > Astrological Disciplic Succession, wherein which all > of our knowledge is passed down to following > generations, and those generations use that knowledge > to further their own researches, and so on. This is > what I hope will indeed happen, in the years to come. > > Being a praticing AStrologer for some time now, and > having had a good grounding in Jyotish for over 2 > years, I have been rigorously experimenting with both > styles, with many of my clients, as well as being > keenly observant of my own Life, and I have to say, > that both systems, comes shinig thru, in their own > distinct ways. Often, themes will shine thru in both > types of charts, and then, sometimes, it will only > come out in one of them. If nothing else then, using > both systems becomes an excellent way to double-check > one's analytical and predictive accuracy. > > Many of my writings on this subject, along with the > analyses of many horoscope subjects, have appeared on > this List, at one point or another; all of them will > appear on my upcoming website, due for lauch this > Fall. My most recent thoughts on this subject, are > called, The Humanism of Western Astrology and Jyotish, > and is meant as an on-going series of articles, > outlining many of the points that need clarification, > as well as to applaud the instances where both systems > clearly work hand-in-hand. More to come on this - stay > tuned. > > In closing, please let me say, that to continue the > debate as to which system, or zodiac, etc. is > absolutely pointless and only serves to seperate us > all - we need to check each other out, understand the > other side of the fence, and see what it is that we > can learn from each other. Ours, is a Global World, > now - our AStrology should reflect this. > > Comments, Please.......... > > Peace, > Mu'Min M. Bey > Mu > > > > Get Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > / > > ------ > 0% Introductory APR! > Instant Approval! > Aria Visa - get yours today. > http://click./1/6035/1/_/913692/_/962157125/ > ------ > > > gjlist- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2000 Report Share Posted June 28, 2000 Chris A friend of mine John van Auken is one of the few people I know who conducted side by side personality profiles of over a hundred people letting them compare their planetary sign placements in both tropical and sidereal and choosing which described them more accurately.the majority by a wide margin chose the tropical placements.Those who did choose the sidereal placements were ecstatic about the accuracy of their descriptions even tho they were a small percentage of the total.What level of their identity were they in touch with may be the key question.Dave Birr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2000 Report Share Posted June 28, 2000 Mu: A pleasure to read your posts, as always. My strong anti-WA/psychology views notwithstanding, I really am or two minds when it comes to using both systems and how to integrate them in a reasonable way. The difficulty lies in reconciling two zodiacs: how can both be "correct"? It's quite possible that they are "measuring" two different things or levels of reality. Therefore, apparent logical flaws such as someone having Aries rising sidereally has Taurus rising tropically needn't concern us. Or should it? How can it NOT concern us since even jyotish, which puts fall more emphasis on outcomes and events, ascribes some basic personality traits to rising signs and subsequent house placement of lagnesh, etc.? These two signs seem so different, can they both be right? My guess is still no, but others may have another view. I'd love to hear how both can be "right". > >I think that the whole question of one system being >better than another, is flawed to begin with; it's NOT >about what amounts to an Astrological urinating >contest; it's about trying to help people with the >knowledge that we have, be it Tropical, Sidereal, >Indian or Western, or anywhere in-between. As someone >who has, and continues to be, deeply immersed in what >I call a Comparitve Study of both Western and Indian >Astrological Systems, I can honestly say, that they >BOTH have great merit, and, in all fairness, either >systme, in the hnads of a skilled practicioner, could >do well, both on the analysis AND the predictive >sides. Well, OK, but can you name any study of WA (or jyotish for that matter) that fares better than chance in predicting events? To me, this is crux of the problem. Even if we lower the bar, and allow for correct assessment of a person's basic psychological disposition -- and this is a very tricky area as far as testing and measuring goes -- can you cite any WA study/demonstration that beat the odds of randomness? I'm still looking for that one too. Sure, at this point, some of us may beg off and wonder aloud: who cares what "science" and all those mainstream people think? I more or less agree with that view. I don't really care about astrology's acceptance by the mainstream. What I DO care about very much is making astrology as useful and accurate as possible. That is the role of research and testing. Not to offer olive branches to the media and science, but to raise our own abilities and discover which postulates work and which don't. Once we stop discriminating between systems, we stop being able to make good predictions. Without an ability to even see which system is more correct, what possible service are we giving to clients? To my mind, correct prediction is the only valid quality control for doing good astrology. That's because it's far too easy for clients to say "yes, that's me exactly" when describing their personality. Getting past events is another matter entirely, and I think is perfectly valid as a means to decide which system is more accurate. But if you're interested in personality traits, that won't wash, will it? > >I think, when we consider the Western System, we have >forgotten about WA's past - it has only been about a >Century since WA has turned away from its more Old >World Approach, and had taken on a more modern, >Humanized Approach. Of course, this can be attributed >to Dane Rudhyar, who, or course, was a student of many >Eastern Schools of thought. It was his ,"The Astrology >of Personality", that took WA from just predicting of >what seemed to fated events, and re-formulated it to >match the Western World, wherein which new >opportunities sprang up nearly everywhere. A good astrologer should be able to predict these opportunties. (I'm not saying that *I* can all the time, either, I just think one should be able to) It's got nothing to do with the alleged differences between eastern and western societies. > >So, the reason why WA doesn't tend to deal with >prediction so much is due to the afore-mentioned >items, already laid out, and I don;t have a problem >with that, because I do not live in >turn-of-the-Century England, when Life was extremely >limited for nearly everyone; or, 19th Century America, >when Slavery was stil the Law of Land, because, back >then, irrespective of what kind of chart I had, the >reality, would have been, that I would have had a >difficult life. WA deals mainly with POTENTIALS that >the person has at their disposal, A career breakthrough is a career breakthrough, no matter where or when you are. I think this line of argument doesn't stand up to scruntiny. As if the West is somehow outside of the karmic effects in the universe and therefore, the horoscope itself! It may sound crass, but a strong 10th house for an English peasant in the middle ages must have brought some improvement, no matter how apparently small in our view, in his status/"career" during its dasha just as it would now for an American entrepreneur. The only difference is one of degree, which is the product of social context. Aren't we, as humans, all subject to the same forces? > >In closing, please let me say, that to continue the >debate as to which system, or zodiac, etc. is >absolutely pointless and only serves to seperate us >all - we need to check each other out, understand the >other side of the fence, and see what it is that we >can learn from each other. Ours, is a Global World, >now - our AStrology should reflect this. I think inquiry and skepticism is healthy and necessary to avoid the pitfalls of a religious-like insularity. When we stop asking questions about what works and finding good standards for predictions, then astrology is doomed to become another Flat Earth Society. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2000 Report Share Posted June 28, 2000 John van Auken was a long time student of the Edgar Cayce readings who worked with Ry Redd who was a student of B. V. Raman,as well as with western astrologers.His research conducted in 1994-95 involved several hundred people,they used the timecycles software for macs as a source for keywords for planetary placements and the ascendant.People were asked to circle the keywords that accurately described their personality.They were not given the planetary placements ,just the keywords to evaluate keyed to their tropical and sidereal placements.Most found the tropical keywords more accurate,but some did find sidereal keywords fit better.Some did not find that either seemed to fit better than the other.This data has not been published yet,but I hope that it is someday.Dave Birr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2000 Report Share Posted June 28, 2000 Chris Those are good points.How much people internalize others descriptions of them,or categorize themselves as introvert or extrovert,thinker or feeler,practical or imaginative,etc. can certainly affect self report data,as can their genuine level of self knowledge which is not exactly a priority in our uncontemplative culture.On the other hand if we assume that people have no ability for accurate self knowledge it would make almost any astrology research on personality,impossible.Feedback from clients as to the value of our astrological input presumes some inteligence exists in our clients.I certainly have recieved western astrology readings which were off the mark,especially because of cultural filters of the astrologer and level of identity issues. dave Birr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2000 Report Share Posted June 28, 2000 Chris A friend of mine John van Auken is one of the few people I know who conducted side by side personality profiles of over a hundred people letting them compare their planetary sign placements in both tropical and sidereal and choosing which described them more accurately.the majority by a wide margin chose the tropical placements.Those who did choose the sidereal placements were ecstatic about the accuracy of their descriptions even tho they were a small percentage of the total.What level of their identity were they in touch with may be the key question.Dave Birr ---------------- Is John van Auken primarily a Tropicalist before doing this? Would that affect his ability to present Sidereal meaning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2000 Report Share Posted June 28, 2000 Dave: That's interesting for sure but a couple of cautions. First, we must be wary about letting people self-select who have in all likelihood grown up knowing and internalizing their tropical Sun sign. They identify with it, possibly at the expense of acknowledging other facets of their personality. So someone who reads "Taurus" in the newspaper every day, it likely more or less familiar with Taurus-like characteristics and may have decided that they fit them adequately. This may be a surface level of reality that you mention. And do you mean all the planets sign positions? This is where things get muddled since there are an array of planets to choose from. Taurus Sun, you say, but you're a go-getter? No problem, you have Mars in Aries or some such. It's really very difficult to nail these traits down using signs. Because of this problem of self-reporting, it would be better to administer some sort of general psychological profile test and then link the characteristics revealed with accepted characteristics of each sign. Chris At 02:46 PM 6/28/00 EDT, you wrote: >Chris A friend of mine John van Auken is one of the few people I know who >conducted side by side personality profiles of over a hundred people letting >them compare their planetary sign placements in both tropical and sidereal >and choosing which described them more accurately.the majority by a wide >margin chose the tropical placements.Those who did choose the sidereal >placements were ecstatic about the accuracy of their descriptions even tho >they were a small percentage of the total.What level of their identity were >they in touch with may be the key question.Dave Birr > >------ >Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws. >http://click./1/4634/1/_/913692/_/962217994/ >------ > > >gjlist- > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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