TCM and Ayurveda

[Guest guest]

Dear

 

Your explanations of the role of mushrooms in TCM and

Ayurveda helped quite a bit and made a lot of sense.

 

Would you please explain the relationship of the

elements inboth TCM and Ayurveda a little more? In

Ayurveda, the elements are earth, water, fire, air and

ether. In Chinese medicine, they are wood, fire,

earth, metal, and water. I presume that water and

fire would be exactly the same in both. Does wood

correspond to something else? And the rest of them?

 

Thanks

GB Khalsa

[Guest guest]

ayurveda, Guru Khalsa <greatyoga> wrote:

> Dear

>

> Your explanations of the role of mushrooms in TCM and

> Ayurveda helped quite a bit and made a lot of sense.

>

> Would you please explain the relationship of the

> elements inboth TCM and Ayurveda a little more? In

> Ayurveda, the elements are earth, water, fire, air and

> ether. In Chinese medicine, they are wood, fire,

> earth, metal, and water. I presume that water and

> fire would be exactly the same in both. Does wood

> correspond to something else? And the rest of them?

>

> Thanks

> GB Khalsa

 

HI GB

 

check out Frank Ros's Lost Secrets of Ayurvedic Acupunture

he gets into this in detail

 

while these systems obviously have a common mother, over time the concepts have

taken on slightly different meanings, and cover territories that don't always

overlap

 

to understand the correspondences its important to understand each system

independently, and then draw the links between them

 

to simply know Ayurveda and draw correspondences without really understanding

TCM would be a mistake

 

theoretical structures are fairly rigid entities, and thus to see the kind of

synthesis

that you suggest would call for some degree of flexibility in both, something

probably

won't happen given that belief structures often have nothing to do with actual

experience, but rather, the conditioned interpretation of experience

 

when people learn something in one way they are unlikely to do a reassessment

until

such time it becomes obvious - some might call this the "elusive obvious," to

borrow

a title from Moshe Feldenkrais

 

nonetheless, in terms of practice, there are obvious correspondences between

concepts like vata, pitta and kapha, and qi, yang and yin, respectively

e.g. Tian Men Dong (Asparagus cochinchinensis), classified as a yin restorative,

and

Shatavari (Asparagus racemosa) for female reproductive disorders

 

here an understanding of TCM concepts like yin, yang and qi restorative actually

adds

a whole new level of sophistication in choosing vajikarana and rasayana herbs

 

best... Todd Caldecott

[Guest guest]

GB and

Robert Svoboda and Arnie Lade also wrote a book called "Tao and Dharma"

which compares TCM and Ayurveda in diagnostics, 5 Elements, Yin Yang Theory,

herbal treatments etc.

 

best wishes, Claudia.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Todd:

 

I am not sure what you mean by "having a common mother"; I think

there are some similarities but both originated and evovled

separately.

 

> while these systems obviously have a common mother, over time the

concepts have

> taken on slightly different meanings, and cover territories that

don't always overlap

 

There are also similarities between the elements in

Ayurveda and the description of doshas in medieval Western herbology

books (I think there is one by Paracelsus). That Ayurveda could be a

source for western medicine is not that far-fetched because a lot of

western knowledge in medicine,astrology came from the Arabs who in

turn got them from India.

 

The source for the tattwas IMO is yoga and tantra. To any occultist,

the elements are very real though not of the same nature as implied

by the names. One of the most balancing things for the doshas is the

tantric ritual of Bhutashuddhi (cleansing of the elements)- this is a

very powerful meditation and the effects are almost as if one were on

an ayurvedic diet.

 

The tattwas and their corresponding sense organs can be

constructively used to balance out any dosha. For instance a vata

individual needs to have more of the earth element; for this he has

to engage in deep breathing, while "smelling" the breath; this is

many times more effective than just plain deepbreathing. When plagued

by running thoughs and restlessness, "smelling" the breath has an

instantenous calming effect.

 

So in the case of ayurveda, the theoretical structure is itself

devovled from experiential and intuitive knowledge of the sages.

 

I am not competant enough to comment on TCM, though I have some

doubts on some of their practices (eg- falling hair and greying hair

is a consequency of poor circulation according to TCM, so the remedy

could be ginko biloba, ginseng etc both which aggravate pitta and

possible cause more hair loss)

 

-yogaman

[Guest guest]

Todd:

 

Rhodiola is one of latest popular adaptogens. According to TCM it is

balancing to both yang and yin; can this be intrepreted to mean that

this is tridoshic as well?

 

-yogaman

[Guest guest]

On Thursday, June 24, 2004, at 06:00 AM,

ayurveda wrote:

 

> Message: 2

> Wed, 23 Jun 2004 17:38:46 -0000

> "childofdevi" <childofdevi

> Re: TCM and Ayurveda

>

> Namaste Todd:

>

> I am not sure what you mean by "having a common mother"; I think

> there are some similarities but both originated and evovled

> separately.

 

Bon medicine contains elements that are very similar to both TCM and

Ayurveda, and claims a lineage of teachings that extends back over

17,000 years, which predates both. Interesting that Bon originated in

the Tibetan plateau, which exists between both India and China. But

apart from this specific link, i am not alone in speculating that

Ayurveda, TCM, ancient Egyptian medicine, and Unani medicine evolved

from a common system. Historians like to present a version of history

that is very much more isolationist than it perhaps was. For eg., few

people are aware that there was a Greek (Unani) school of medicine in

Beijing in the 11th cent. In the 6th cent CE vedic physicians lectured

on medicine in Jundishapur, in Iran. Some claim that vedic astrology

evolved from Hellenistic astrology brought by the Macedonians.

Extending back even further, Sumerian seals have been found on Indian

soil, indicating a significant trade in both commodities and ideas,

dated circa Sarasvati civilization. Even if you do a cursory study of

ancient India and Sumerian culture, there are many similarities,

primarily in their division of different classes of healers: the

brahmin/ashipu and the bhishaj/asu, the latter concerned with

magico-religious rites, and the latter with herbal medicine and bone

setting. There are also other similarities between ancient Indian and

ancient Mesopotamian cultures, but i digress... the information is

there for those that seek it

 

>

> I am not competant enough to comment on TCM, though I have some

> doubts on some of their practices (eg- falling hair and greying hair

> is a consequency of poor circulation according to TCM, so the remedy

> could be ginko biloba, ginseng etc both which aggravate pitta and

> possible cause more hair loss)

 

alopecia is not a diagnostic classification in TCM, but is indicative

of certain energetic patterns when other symptoms are present, e.g.

alopecia could be a jjing, yin, yang or blood deficiency etc.,

depending on the symptomology

 

besides which, if you knew anything of TCM you would know that the

chinese don't use Ginkgo biloba except as the fruit, primarily in the

treatment of asthma

the use of the high-potency standardized flavonoid Ginkgo extract for

cerebral ischemia and atherosclerosis is based on German studies that

began in the early 1950's

but this product doesn't bear anything close to the way the chinese use

the nut, nor is it actually a "herbal" product

 

further, i'm not sure where you come up with the idea that Ginkgo

extract (or nut?) aggravates pitta

did you find this in some traditional nighantu (impossible) or recent

text on Ayurveda, or have you actually seen Ginkgo aggravate pitta in

practice? i personally have never seen this, with both the

standardized extract or a simple leaf (tincture) extract - just saying

something is so doesn't make it as such

 

lastly, some Ginsengs are excellent restoratives for paittika

conditions, e,g. Panax quinquefolium (American Ginseng), which is

clearly established as a yin restorative; look at the activities of San

qi (Panax notoginseng) as a hemostatic in rakta pitta. etc etc.

 

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Anna

 

i think this has been discussed before- you can search the archives

for "TCM"

basically, nobody really knows for sure - its clear that TCM and

Ayurveda are similar and also different, in a number of different

ways, and thus there are no easy answers

 

you need to look at the history of the cultures and their interaction

with each other to discover the answer to your question, but much of

this remains uncovered even still

 

basically, you have an ancient people of india, some centered around

the (now dry) ghaggar river system in northwest india, called the

sarasvati civilization dating back to the 3rd millennium BCE or

earlier - not much is known about this culture as we are still trying

to decipher the script they used

 

it is clear they had a very sophisticated society, similar to what

has been found in harappa and moenjodaro (with sewers, flushing

toilets and garbage collection) and certainly maintained a class of

professional healers, but we don't really know if they practiced

ayurveda per se - there is a debate among scholars about the whole

"aryan" invasion - the same aryans ("noble ones") that brought the

vedas with them - if the sarasvati people were dravidian, as some

suspect, then they may have practiced something closer to siddha,

although siddha now at least certainly seems very similar to ayurveda

 

around the same time, China had the Yangshao and Lungshan peoples

evolving an agrarian neolithic civilization, whose medicine was in

large part shamanistic, with lots of ancestral appeasement and use of

oracles

 

the invention of medicine in China is attributed to the legendary

Shen Nung, who is thought to have lived around this time, also

inventing agriculture and somewhat accidently, black tea...

 

when the sarasvati declined the apex of indian culture shifted to the

northwest, in present day northern pakistan/afghanistan, which became

great centers of medical learning in ancient india (e.g. takshashila

university), as early as 800 BCE (pre-alexander/iskander)

 

we also know that during this time there was a very large empire to

north called zhang zhung, which stretched from modern day tibet into

afghanistan and iran in the west, to mongolia in the north, and into

some parts of china in the east

 

interestingly enough, much of the zhang zhung culture is very similar

with hinduism, and today both tibetans and indians revere the same

gods/goddesses and sacred sites, e.g. mount kailash (what the bonpos

call the mountain of the 9 svastikas), deep in tibetan territory

north of the himalayas is the abode of lord shiva and and from where

Lord Bharadvaja rec'd the divine knowledge of ayurveda - this and

other features suggest that there was a lot of cultural intermingling

between the two peoples, and that perhaps large parts of hindu

culture were derived from the "aryans" of the zhang zhung (who also

use this term, to refer to themselves...)

 

besides sharing between india and zhang zhung, there was also some

sharing between zhang zhung and china, but the relationship was more

antagonistic (hence China's traditional resentment of tibet and

subsequent invasion last century) - but there was some intermingling

nonetheless, for e.g., pulse diagnosis is similar, and may have

originated in zhang zhung culture (interestingly enough there was a

greek/persian school of pulse diagnosis in beijing in the 11th cent AD)

 

later, with the spread of buddhism into china, features of indian

culture including medicine were brought into china, but if they were

assimilated, they were given discrete characteristics so that they

don't resemble the former - e.g. both TCM and Ayurveda have 5

elements, but they are different and have different qualities; TCM

uses yin-yang, ayurveda speaks of soma-agni, etc etc.

 

with ALL of this background you can see that it is difficult to say

with certainty _who_ are the progenitors of ayurveda and related

vedic sciences - factor into this the extensive colonization of SE

asia (e.g. bali being one last example of this) by south indian

mariners, meant there was also some mixing going on down south too,

with some chinese herbs incorporated in the ayurvedic materia medica,

e.g. chinese date, sarsaparilla etc.

 

my own belief? i think that ayurveda as we know it today was

inherited from the zhang zhung peoples, and comingled with pre-

existing dravidian/indian practices

 

as far as TCM and ayurveda, i also believe that the similarities

exist between them because these were mediated through the zhang

zhung culture, and later with the spread of buddhism into china

 

sorry for the rush and typos but i had limited time to write this

 

best... todd caldecott

 

> Message: 11

> Tue, 10 Jan 2006 05:59:09 -0000

> "radjfarkas" <radjfarkas

 

> I am new to this group and this is my first question:

> Did TCM (Traditional ) evolve from Ayurvedic medicine?

>

> Anna