Question regardiing Ramanuja Nootrandadhi

[Guest guest]

BR Parthasarathi Swamin

Adiyen pranam. In your eagerness to pointout the number for Divaprabandam, you

have omitted to include Thirumangai Azhwar's Siriya Thirumadal, Periya

Thirumadal, Thiruvezhukkutrikai.

Also Nammazar; sThiruvoimozhi itself is 1102 pasurams besides Thiruvirutham--

Thiruasiriam Peria Thiruanthathi.

Ramanuja Noortrandhadhi has been given the status equivalent to Nalaya

Divyaprabandamas well as Manavala Mamunigal's Upadesa Rathnamalai.

Adiyen Narasimhan

[Guest guest]

SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA.

 

Dear all,

I just reproduce here the account given in the introduction by the publisher,

Sri Mayilai Madhava dasan to Nalaayira divya Prabhandam, published in the year

1950, on how the 4000 are calculated. I leave it to the fellow bhagavathas to

decide about the acceptability of it or not.

 

 

As per Tamil grammar, Siriya Thirumadal and Peria thirumadal are considered as

single Kali veNbha each and as such the total pasuams are 3774 + 2 = 3776. This

is what is followed in most of the publications.

 

But there 3 ways by which the 4000 is arrived at.

 

 

By one method, each ‘kaNNi’ of the 2 Thiru madal are taken as each pasuram,

thereby arriving at 77-1/2 + 148-1/2 = 226.

Then the total will be 3774 + 226 = 4000

To substantiate this, the Vaazhi –th- naama cheyyuL is quoted which says,

“Elangezhu kootrirukkai iru madal eendhaan vaazhiyE;

im-moondril iru-nootru-irupatthEzhu eendhaan vaazhiyE”

 

By another method, the pasurams in Siriya Thirumadal are calculated as 40 and in Peria Thirumadal as

78 and by adding Iramanusa Nootrandhaadhi, it is calculated 3774 + 40+ 78+ 108 = 4000

 

This is based on Sri Vedantha Desikar’s verses,

“siriya madal paatu muppatthu ettu irandum (38+2)

sir peria madalaranil yezhupatthettum (78)”

 

and

 

“mutthi tharum yadiraasar ponnadikkE, mozhinda amutha nal paadal noorum ettum”

 

By yet another method, it is said that since it is customary to consider the 947

of the mudalaayiram as

a 1000,

and 1137 as 2000 (irandaayiram),

it is also acceptable to say 3776 as 4000.

 

---------------------------

Regards,

Jayasree saranathan

[Guest guest]

I received many replies,

Thanks to sri Parthasarathi re: the 4000 count,

but it seems to be only about 3700.

 

Still there is no answer yet as to why Ramanuja

Nootrandadhi is considered as a part of 4000.

 

Q2: was If Amudhanar's work can be added, then why not Desika

prabhandam in order to make it a complete 4000.

 

Since some one asked this question,

Here is a list of Desika Prabhandams

(http://www.malolan.org/trkmain.htm) Thanks for the time to explain the 4000 count,

[Guest guest]

Nalayira Divya Prabhana nool in my possession is is in Telugu lipi whih I

follow.I am extremly thank ful for bhagavathas who are giving out meanings and

purports as pronounced by poorvacharyas.Comming to 4000 count given in the nool

in my possession is AS follows.May be this IS not pramanam because it is in

Telugu lipi.Please enlighten me as to accuracy of this.Iramanusa nootrandathi

is not cited in the list, but covered in the nool.Also covered in the nool

areUPADESARATHNAMALAI, THIRUVAIMOZHI NOOTRANDATHI.

LIST

Mudal ayiram

Thirupallandu 12

Periazwar thiru mozhi 461

T

Thiruppavai 30

nachiyar thiru mohi 143

perual thiruozhi 105

thiruchandavirutham 120

thirualai 45

thirupalliezhichi 10

amalanathiphiran 10

kannanunchiruthambu 11

-------------

947

-----------

Iranda ayiram

Peria thirumozhi 1084

thirkurandhandaka 20

thirunedundhandakam 30

-----------

1134

----------

Moonram Ayiram Iyarpa

mudhal thiruvandadi 100

Irandam thiruvadadi 100

Moonram thiruandadi 100

Nanmugan thiruvandadi 96

Thiruvirutham 100

Thiruvashiram 7

Peria thiruvandadi 87

Thiruvezhukootrirukkai 1

Siria thirumadal 77&1/2

Peria thirumadal 148 &1/2

-------------------

817

----------------

Nalavayiram

Thiruvaimozhi 1102

-------------------

GRAND TOTAL 4000

---------------------

 

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan

Krishnamachary

[Guest guest]

Dear bhagavathas

Kindly accept my humble pranams. i have been keenly

looking at the posts regarding the "irAmAnuja

nUttranthAthi" and the calculations rounding up to

4000 etc. it would be really helpful (its a humble

request) if some one can make a detailed postings, not

only regarding the number of pasurams each, but also

regading the names given to the prabandhams and

typical meters which are used.

i also have some specific doubts

1. What is a "maDal" means

2. what is "Thandakam" in thirukkurunthANDakam and

thirunEdumthANDakam

3. similarly the meanings of the titles

"thiruviruthamthiruvAsiriyam"

4. What is "anthAthi" type prabandham means

5. some prabandhams are named after the begining word,

like "amalanAdipirAn", kaNNInuNchirutthAmpU etc, but

then what is the speicality of "thiruvEzhukUTTirukkai"

6. what are the specialities of meters like

kalivirutham, venpa etc...

 

i hope the learned memebers can help me with this. i

am not at all familier with Tamil litrature. i beg

your pardon for the mistakes in the mail

with humble pranams

Sreekanth

 

 

 

Dr. A. Sreekanth

Laboratorium für Physikalische Chemie

Wolfgang Pauli strasse, 10

ETH -Hönggerberg, HCI- F227

CH-8093 Zürich, Switzerland

Tel: +41-44-6325702 (off)

+41-44-435400915 (home)

+41-792474952 (handy)

E-mail: sran

URL: http:/www.esr.ethz.ch

 

 

 

 

 

Start your day with - Make it your home page!

http://www./r/hs

[Guest guest]

Sri:

 

adiyEn is not sure why there is still a confusion in

this regard.

 

Q1 is already answered. Ramanuja Nutrandadhi is not

considered a part of the 4000. The count to 4000

does not include it. There is also no need to worry

about the the fact that it is only 3700 verses and

not an exact 4000. It is not a requirement to have

an exact 4000 to say 4000. Ramanuja Nutrandadhi

itself has 108 verses and yet is called Nutrandadhi

(not Nutrettandadhi); Thiruvaymozhi has 1112 verses,

yet Nammazhvar routinely says "AyiraththuL"; etc.

 

To answer Q2. Ramanuja Nutrandadhi is given an

unique position in that it is treated on par with

the 4000. This is because Ramanuja occupies an

unique position in our sampradhayam that no other

acharya - before or after him - shares. Not for

nothing is our sampradhayam called Emberumanar

Darshanam - which was told by none other than

Namperumal Himself. Notice also that he has the

unique name of Ilaiyazhvar.

 

It is not appropriate for us to ask why verses on

other acharyas are not given the same position as

verses on Ramanujar. Much as we might adore other

acharyas, we cannot treat them the same as Ramanuja.

 

Also, if we say why not Desika Prabandham, then

another would say, why not Upadesa Raththinamalai

and Thiruvaymozhi Nutrandadhi. And so on. Pretty

soon, we will have to call it the aiyAyira divya

prabhandam .

 

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Satakpopan Svami,

 

Adiyens pranam. This second email in same tread, will fix the

confusion i guess.

 

> Still there is no answer yet as to why Ramanuja

> Nootrandadhi is considered as a part of 4000.

 

In the first email adiyen have given various reasons as to why IN

(Iramanusa Nootranthathi) is not a part of 4000.

 

Regarding the sankyai of 4000 dhivya prabhandam, counting Madals and

Thiruvezhukootrarikkai as one paasuram is the correct way to count,

(Tamil grammar). This leads to paasurams less than 4000. However even

if it is more or less equal to 4000, it is ok call it 4000 (sort of

round total). Why? round total is correct(please refer to

explainations of purusha sooktham, shathamanam bhavathi.. etc where it

is said 100/1000 but really means many). In this context adiyen would

like to quote Mukoor Sri Lakshmi Narasimhachar svami, from his book

"kurai onrum illai". In Aasirvaadham when they chant "sathamanam

bhavathi.. sathayu:...." svami gives clear explaination as they dont

mean that the person who is receiving aseervadham must live just 100

years and go to perumal's kainkaryam in paramapadham on 101st

birthday, what they mean is that the person should live long, etc

(note long = +/-).

 

> Q2: was If Amudhanar's work can be added, then why not Desika

> prabhandam in order to make it a complete 4000.

 

Please note that none of the Acharya's prabhandam is included inside

Dhivya prabhandam. Only amuthanars prabhandam about Ramanuja is given

status (still not included) that of dhivya prabhandam. adiyen will

give the reason why, according to poorvacharyas.

 

There is a difference between Dhivya Prabhandam and other Prabhandams.

There is a reason why the Dhivya Prabhandam has a prefix "Dhivya" and

other Prabhandams by Aacharyas don't. Our elders have considered the

status of the word "Dhivya" according to "pramaanaprameya" and

"pramaatha". Of all the Prabhandams which extol about supreme or

Bhagavaan only these Prabhandams (a set known as "Sriyappathi

Emperumaanaal myarvara mathinalam arulapettra Aazvargal arulichitha

Naalayira Dhivya Prabhandam" in full) are the best and they also got

name as "Dravida Vedam" or "Tamiz Vedam" used interchangeably. The

people who made those are called "Dhivya Sooris" or "Azwars" meaning

"who are immersed in Bhagavaan and Bhagavath Kalyana Gunas all the

time". The kshetrams which are sung by the Dhivya sooris are called

Dhivya Desams. What a "Dhivya" construction of network by the

poorvacharyas. Dhivya can be closely translated to "Divine".

 

Now why Iramanusa Nootranthathi is given Status. It was because of

Namperumals divine order. refer to Upadesa-ratna-malai of Svami

Manavalamamunikal "Emperumanar Darisanam" is the name given to

Srivaishnava Sampradayam by "Sri Namperumal" Himself. Sri Namperumal

did the arulappadu to Amuthanar and later gave this status to this

Prabhandam (recorded in kovil ozugu). Also No other acharyas

prabhandams are included (this list includes Amuthanar also). However

amuthanar's prabhandam is given status, that is the only

difference(please note that inclusion and given status are two

different things). please see the list below

 

Rest of Dhivya prabhandam: goes without saying

 

Kanninun chiruththambu: included and given status by poorvacharyas

(Nathamuni, uyyakondar,.....).

 

Iramanusa Nootranthathi: given status of dhivya prabhandam by Sri

Namperumal but not included in the set.

 

Other Acharyas prabhandams: Neither included nor given status to that

of Dhivya Prabhandam.

 

For the same reason above any Acharya prabhandam is chanted after

pallandu pallandu in sattrumurai, except Iramanusa Nootranthathi which

is given status. Hope this email clears the other questions

 

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan,

N.C.Narashiman.

 

PS: Please note that what adiyen is writing here solely based on

poorvacharyas commentaries and explainations.

[Guest guest]

Its Very Very TRUE ---WE should all ENJOY the Pasurams & get DEEPER & DEEPER

into BHAGAVANS THIRU KALYANA GUNANGAL as so Graciously given to us RATHER

than putting some QNS & WHYS---- We shd know these WHYs only DISTRACT us from

the TRUE spirit!!

 

SO Lets leave the numbers and & start gaining insite of the DIVYA Prabhandamams

 

Wishing ALL ASTHIKAs A very colorful & Happy DEEPAVALI round the corner

 

AZHWAR EMBERUMANAR JEER THIRUVADIGALE CHARANAM

 

SRI AANDAL THIRUVADIGALE CHARANAM ADIYEN DASAN

 

B>R>Parthasarathi

On 10/24/05, TCA Venkatesan <vtca > wrote:

Sri:adiyEn is not sure why there is still a confusion in this regard.Q1 is

already answered. Ramanuja Nutrandadhi is not

considered a part of the 4000. The count to 4000 does not include it. There is

also no need to worryabout the the fact that it is only 3700 verses andnot an

exact 4000. It is not a requirement to havean exact 4000 to say 4000. Ramanuja

Nutrandadhi

itself has 108 verses and yet is called Nutrandadhi(not Nutrettandadhi);

Thiruvaymozhi has 1112 verses,yet Nammazhvar routinely says "AyiraththuL";

etc.To answer Q2. Ramanuja Nutrandadhi is given an

unique position in that it is treated on par withthe 4000. This is because

Ramanuja occupies anunique position in our sampradhayam that no otheracharya -

before or after him - shares. Not for nothing is our sampradhayam called

Emberumanar Darshanam - which was told by none other than Namperumal Himself.

Notice also that he has the unique name of Ilaiyazhvar.It is not appropriate

for us to ask why verses onother acharyas are not given the same position as

verses on Ramanujar. Much as we might adore otheracharyas, we cannot treat them

the same as Ramanuja.Also, if we say why not Desika Prabandham, thenanother

would say, why not Upadesa Raththinamalai

and Thiruvaymozhi Nutrandadhi. And so on. Pretty soon, we will have to call it

the aiyAyira divya prabhandam .adiyEn madhurakavi dAsanazhwAr emberumAnAr

jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

 

U s bank home mortgage

U s patent search

Corporate culture

Business culture of china

Illinois

 

Visit your group "ramanuja" on the web.

ramanuja

-- Regards B.R.Parthasarathi

[Guest guest]

Thank you all for the answers, it has been useful.

 

Mr. Narashiman:

 

First qs i am clear that its not in the 4000 count as per your explanation.

 

Could some one give counting for 4000 based on Desika Sampradayam

 

2nd Qs: Because only Alwars are included in 4000

Desika Prabhandam is not in the 4000.

 

I have many more qs, I hope it is ok to ask such questions in this forum.

 

Satakopan Vasudevan