Seshatvam and paratantriyam

September 27, 2004

Dear all

There has been some a good discussion on the concepts of seshaatvam and

pararatantriyam dear to the heart of our acharyas. Some thoughts arose in my

mind after reading Jayshree Saranathan's letter on the above topic.

According to the commentaries by Periavachan Pillai , Sehatvam is what Lakshmana

showed when obeying his brother Sri Rama. Paratantriyam is the quality that we

see in Bharata's attitude to Sri Rama. Our achryas have admired more the quality

of paratantriyam. Shatrugana's paratantryam to Bharatha is even considered

superior

Parantriyam means loss of swatantriyam or lack of independence. Does this mean

our swatantriyam is lost.

As chetanas, human beings are endowed with knowledge. I think that our knowldge

should be used to discriminate what is good and what is bad.Our acharya's

srisukthis help to know these.

Laakshmana was doing all service to the Lord as desired by the Lord. Bharata

was performing the duties as ordained by the Lord. I think the qualities of

Seshatvam and Paratantriyam is is what is expected from Vaishnavas.

There is also an analogy of father and son. I am not able to understand hoe this

helps to understand these concepts.

Similar cocepts are found when the jiva attains paramapada for divine service

after his moksha. The concepts of Samipya,Sarupya and Sayujya come to the

picture.

Though the liberated souls attain the nearness of the Lord and also the

divyadeham like the Lord, they do not have all the powers of the Lord. For ex.,

they do not have the power to create anything.

Further clarifications on the topic from the the learned group is welcome.

Adiyen Ramanujadasan

Soundararajan

Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar thiruvadigale saranam

September 29, 2004

ramanuja, rajan s <rajan_ramaswamy> wrote:

> Dear all

>

Dear Sriman Rajan,

Do we have swAtantryam?

Dasan

Vishnu

>

> Parantriyam means loss of swatantriyam or lack of independence.

Does this mean our swatantriyam is lost.

>

> As chetanas, human beings are endowed with knowledge. I think that

our knowldge should be used to discriminate what is good and what is

bad.Our acharya's srisukthis help to know these.

>

September 30, 2004

Dear Vishnu

It is with humbleness. I give below what I have understood.

Parantriyam is making oneself ready so as to deserve the krupai of the Lord.

In case of paratantriyam. Swatantriyam is lost.Our actions have to be

conditioned by whatever has been prescribed in the sastras.

There are enough references to this in our sampradayic literature. A great vedic

scholar came across a small insect moving around happily without any concern.

When the scholar asked about it, the insect replied that it has no severe

austerities to be perfomed or great things to follow.But the human beings have

lot of restraints.

Then my earlier submission follows:

Our knowldge should be used to discriminate what is good and what is

bad.

> As chetanas, human beings are endowed with knowledge. I think that

our acharya's srisukthis help to know these.

Adiyen Ramanujadasan

Soundararajan

Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar thiruvadigale sharanam

Vishnu <vsmvishnu wrote:

ramanuja, rajan s <rajan_ramaswamy> wrote:

> Dear all

>

Dear Sriman Rajan,

Do we have swAtantryam?

Dasan

Vishnu

>

> Parantriyam means loss of swatantriyam or lack of independence.

Does this mean our swatantriyam is lost.

> knowldge should be used to discriminate what is good and what is

bad.Ou

> As chetanas, human beings are endowed with knowledge. I think that

our r acharya's srisukthis help to know these.

>

azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

ramanuja/

ramanuja

October 1, 2004

ramanuja, rajan s <rajan_ramaswamy> wrote:

> Dear Vishnu

>

> >

> Parantriyam is making oneself ready so as to deserve the krupai of

the Lord.

Dear Sriman Rajan,

If Parantriyam is making oneself ready so as to deserve the krupai of

the Lord, what is swAtantryam?

Dasan

Vishnu

> In case of paratantriyam

>Swatantriyam is lost.Our actions have to be conditioned by whatever

>has been prescribed in the sastras.

> There are enough references to this in our sampradayic literature.

A great vedic scholar came across a small insect moving around

happily without any concern. When the scholar asked about it, the

insect replied that it has no severe austerities to be perfomed or

great things to follow.But the human beings have lot of restraints.

>

> Then my earlier submission follows:

>

> Our knowldge should be used to discriminate what is good and what

is

> bad.

> > As chetanas, human beings are endowed with knowledge. I think

that

> our acharya's srisukthis help to know these.

>

> Adiyen Ramanujadasan

>

> Soundararajan

>

> Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar thiruvadigale sharanam

October 1, 2004

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear Sriman Soundararajan,

Humble praNAms to you. If I follow your english(and on

the assumption that my English is neither Shakespearean nor Bacon)

closely, I figure out from "pAratantryam is making 'oneself' ready"

that jIvAtma has independence!!! Correct me if I'm wrong/misread

your post. I may think that I deserve the krpa of the Lord but the

Lord may think differently. How can I act in such a way that it only

gives pleasure to the Lord? Even if I give displeasure(according to

my eyes) He may lick it as a pleasure(according to His eyes). In

effect, my act shouldn't become a cause for Him to react(that's why

His grace is called "causeless/nirhEtuka grace/mercy/krpa")! This is

a very subtle point which can not be translated into any language

properly except in the heart,mind and in practice. I'm an infant in

my sampradAyam so please pardon all errors.

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

dAsAnu dAsI

NC Nappinnai

> It is with humbleness. I give below what I have understood.

> Parantriyam is making oneself ready so as to deserve the krupai of

the Lord.

> In case of paratantriyam. Swatantriyam is lost.

October 5, 2004

Dear Srimathi Vaidhehi

The point raised in your mail was as follows.

I figure out from "pAratantryam is making 'oneself' ready"

that jIvAtma has independence!!! Correct me if I'm wrong/misread

your post. I may think that I deserve the krpa of the Lord but the

Lord may think differently. How can I act in such a way that it only

gives pleasure to the Lord? Even if I give displeasure(according to

my eyes) He may lick it as a pleasure(according to His eyes). In

effect, my act shouldn't become a cause for Him to react(that's why

His grace is called "causeless/nirhEtuka grace/mercy/krpa")!

You have raised important questions of Sahetuka krupai and Nirhetuka krupai of

the Lord. It will merit a serious discussion from the learned disciples of the

Sampradayam.It is one of the doctrinairre differences between vadagalai and

thengalai sampradayams.

Ofcourse the differnces are only 'varthabetham' and not 'yojanabhedham'.

Nodoubt, the Lord is a swatantran and Krupai of the Lord cannot be taken as

granted.

It is his prerogative

In one of the earlier mails, it has been mentioned that paratantriyam is not

beining like 'achit'.

Bhagavat Ramanuja prays to the Lord in his Sharanagathi Gadyaam that he be

endowed with parabhakthi,paragnanam and paramabhakti which entails the grace of

the Lord.

He prays to the Lord in his mangala sloka of Sribhashyam that his knowledge take

the form of Bhakti .

It has been said In the commemtaries to Divya Prabhantam that the Lord has given

the vedas and Upanishads and then Bhagavat Gita so that people can follow

them.When He saw that only a few understood them and followed,He has sent

Azhwars and Acharyas so that people can easily emulate them being of their own

kind.

It is incumbent therefore that the prapannas follow the teaching of Purvacharyas

which pleses the Lord.

The Lord emphasises the importance of everyone performing his duties when he

says "Karmanyeva adhikaraste, ma paleshu kathachana' .

Any inadequacies in my language be excused.

Adiyen Ramanujadasan

Soundararajan.

AzwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

ramanuja/

ramanuja

October 5, 2004

Dear Vaidehi,

If 'sEshatvam' is realized by 'letting go' of

one's wrong belief in svAtantrayam, then is that

letting go indicative of the jIvAtma's independence

in action?

If you perform actions for the pleasure of the Lord,

then are you acting with independence?

adiyEn

--- vaidhehi_nc <nappinnai_nc wrote:

> Sri:

> Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

> Dear Sriman Soundararajan,

> Humble praNAms to you. If I follow your

> english(and on

> the assumption that my English is neither Shakespearean

> nor Bacon)

> closely, I figure out from "pAratantryam is making

> 'oneself' ready"

> that jIvAtma has independence!!! Correct me if I'm

> wrong/misread

> your post. I may think that I deserve the krpa of the

> Lord but the

> Lord may think differently. How can I act in such a way

> that it only

> gives pleasure to the Lord? Even if I give

> displeasure(according to

> my eyes) He may lick it as a pleasure(according to His

> eyes). In

> effect, my act shouldn't become a cause for Him to

> react(that's why

> His grace is called "causeless/nirhEtuka

> grace/mercy/krpa")! This is

> a very subtle point which can not be translated into any

> language

> properly except in the heart,mind and in practice. I'm an

> infant in

> my sampradAyam so please pardon all errors.

>

> AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

> dAsAnu dAsI

> NC Nappinnai

>

October 6, 2004

ramanuja, TCA Venkatesan <vtca> wrote:

> Dear Vaidehi,

>

Dear Sriman Venkatesan,

Do we have to do something for His pleasure? Is not our very

existence for Him? Is our liberation also not for Him as it is

said "chEtana lAbham bhagavat prIti"?

dAsan

Vishnu

> >

> If you perform actions for the pleasure of the Lord,

> then are you acting with independence?

>

> adiyEn

>

October 6, 2004

Dear Sri Vishnu,

I was quoting Nappinnai's note on doing things for

His pleasure (or displeasure as she mentioned :-))

and wondering how it fit into her line of questioning

on the 'action' of the jIvatma.

Nevertheless, to your answer your question, it is

my understanding that a true sEsha bhUta has to do

everything for His pleasure - including the giving

up of the sEsha bhAvam is He desires it. If mere

existence is all that is required, then how do you

stop actions such as killing, destructing a temple,

etc. Surely, you'd agree that such actions are not

meant for His pleasure and as such are to be

avoided.

If that is the case, then does the jIva have

independence in action? Please see Smt Jayasree

Saranathan's excellent post recently on this.

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

--- Vishnu <vsmvishnu wrote:

>

> ramanuja, TCA Venkatesan

> <vtca> wrote:

> > Dear Vaidehi,

> >

>

> Dear Sriman Venkatesan,

>

> Do we have to do something for His pleasure? Is not our

> very

> existence for Him? Is our liberation also not for Him as

> it is

> said "chEtana lAbham bhagavat prIti"?

>

> dAsan

> Vishnu

>

> > >

> > If you perform actions for the pleasure of the Lord,

> > then are you acting with independence?

> >

> > adiyEn

> >

>

October 10, 2004

ramanuja, TCA Venkatesan <vtca> wrote:

>

> Dear Sri Vishnu,

>

Dear Sriman Venkatesan,

Whatever a pesron does in krshNa consciousness (recogintion of

SEshatvam) is for His pleasure.

> Nevertheless, to your answer your question, it is

> my understanding that a true sEsha bhUta has to do

> everything for His pleasure - including the giving

> up of the sEsha bhAvam is He desires it. If mere

> existence is all that is required, then how do you

> stop actions such as killing, destructing a temple,

> etc. Surely, you'd agree that such actions are not

> meant for His pleasure and as such are to be

> avoided.

>

> If that is the case, then does the jIva have

> independence in action? Please see Smt Jayasree

> Saranathan's excellent post recently on this.

Same question I asked Sriman Vijay Triplicane in the list long back.

He kindly replied "Yes, there is not any kind of independence, but

this is how it works out".

Dasan

Vishnu

October 10, 2004

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear Sriman TCA Venkatesan,

You have misunderstood my standpoint. So, let me make it

clear(atleast from my side).

> I was quoting Nappinnai's note on doing things for

> His pleasure (or displeasure as she mentioned :-))

> and wondering how it fit into her line of questioning

> on the 'action' of the jIvatma.

My response was to Sriman Krishnaswamy's(with rajan_s id) post

wrt "paratantram is making oneself ready so as to deserve His

krpa...". I didn't pose a question wrt sEshatvam and pAratantryam in

the first place. I only asked wrt "making oneself ready". This

addresses the issue of sahEtukam/nirhEtukam and

freewill!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here ends my question.

I am neither good in thamizh nor english but Smt Jayasree

Saranathan's post says,"It is He who gives buddhi to those whom He

wants to lift...". Sri piLLai lOkAcAryAr makes it very clear

that "pApa and puNya are weighed in His eyes and not ours". I don't

know(What I heard could be wrong or may not be authentic!!!)but

duryOdhana tells srIkrshNa that "you're the one who instigates me to

do such acts...". Those who are experts in mahAbhAratam can correct

me.

You mentioned in one of your post that sEshatvam gets destroyed

(please generously forgive me if I misunderstood your writings). But

it is not so. One devotee's reply confirmed that which coincided

with Sri Sridhar Srinivasan's post as sEshatvam is the essential

attribute of the soul. He also said that "that's why Sri

KuraththAzhvAn was sent to Sri ThirukkOtiyUr nambi for

verification". SEshatvam is always there in the background. This

topic is so subtle that no matter how many mails we exchange we

would further introduce non-clarity. So, I am going to stop with

this as I am having personal interactions with Sri Chinna Jeeyar

swamiji and some devotees along these lines. If I added some more

confusion thro' this post or misread your post, pardon me.

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

dAsAnu dAsI

NC Nappinnai

October 12, 2004

Samin,

Independence is there and free will is there for all of us. That is the sensual

reality part of our lives.

Go deeper, you find that all is by his will. Someone asked a villager where is

your GOD.

He said he will help me in despair. He is with me always.

To that extent he was right. Then one day there was heavy floods. Every one was

leaving

the village. They called him. He said GOD WILL TAKE CARE OF ME.

They left. He was on a tree top. The floods dint stop. First help given by god

were the

people themselves who called him again and again. He dint see gOOD or GOD in

that.

Then GOD sent LOGS one after other each stopping in front of him for good time

before

being lashed away. HE DINT SEE GOD THERE.

He was washed away bythe flood. He went to yama. But for his belief in GOD he

had to

reach swarga. He was sent to hell. He asked YAMA what is my sin? Why am I

banished? First you have to send GOD there as he dint save his devotee.

Yama told him patiently, your sin is only one, YOU WANTED HIM TO COME IN PERSON

TO SAVE YOU FROM FLOOD. Did he not make each villager ask you?

Did he not send those numerous tree trunks?

So free will should no to surrender fully with senses. Paratantryam should be

sought with self will.

Dasan/raghavan

Vishnu <vsmvishnu wrote:

ramanuja, TCA Venkatesan <vtca> wrote:

>

> Dear Sri Vishnu,

>

Dear Sriman Venkatesan,

Whatever a pesron does in krshNa consciousness (recogintion of

SEshatvam) is for His pleasure.

> Nevertheless, to your answer your question, it is

> my understanding that a true sEsha bhUta has to do

> everything for His pleasure - including the giving

> up of the sEsha bhAvam is He desires it. If mere

> existence is all that is required, then how do you

> stop actions such as killing, destructing a temple,

> etc. Surely, you'd agree that such actions are not

> meant for His pleasure and as such are to be

> avoided.

>

> If that is the case, then does the jIva have

> independence in action? Please see Smt Jayasree

> Saranathan's excellent post recently on this.

Same question I asked Sriman Vijay Triplicane in the list long back.

He kindly replied "Yes, there is not any kind of independence, but

this is how it works out".

Dasan

Vishnu

azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

ramanuja/

ramanuja

vote. - Register online to vote today!

October 12, 2004

Dear Ms Nappinnai,

I think this is descending quickly into "my response is

to this statement which was in response to ..." - I think

it is best we drop this :-).

> My response was to Sriman Krishnaswamy's(with rajan_s id) post

adiyEn was not stating on my own that sEshatvam is

("might be") destroyed. I was only quoting what pUrvAcharyas

have said and what latter day acharyas have coommented on

them. Mumukshuppadi says clearly "azhikkum pOdhu" and all

commentaries that I have seen and heard on this state that

this refers to sEshatvam. One member in this forum said that

this means that simply the bhAvam is destroyed. I do not buy

that argument, as it sounds like the jIva is trying to fool

the Lord. All examples used for this - such as Azhvar

asking the Lord to massage his other feet, etc - indicate

that the role reversal is complete.

If sEshatvam alone is destroyed, then it is against the

nature of the jIva. However, if that brings out

pAratantriyam, then it only means that the "ellai nilam"

of sEshatvam has been brought out. That means, the jIva

shines at its brightest in being a sEsha to the Lord. I

think this has been discussed plenty in this forum. So,

I am not sure I am adding anything new here.

I would be interested to hear what your interactions with

other acharyas and scholars indicate. So, please do keep

us posted if you can.

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

> You mentioned in one of your post that sEshatvam gets destroyed

> (please generously forgive me if I misunderstood your writings).

But

> it is not so. One devotee's reply confirmed that which coincided

> with Sri Sridhar Srinivasan's post as sEshatvam is the essential

> attribute of the soul. He also said that "that's why Sri

> KuraththAzhvAn was sent to Sri ThirukkOtiyUr nambi for

> verification". SEshatvam is always there in the background. This

> topic is so subtle that no matter how many mails we exchange we

> would further introduce non-clarity. So, I am going to stop with

> this as I am having personal interactions with Sri Chinna Jeeyar

> swamiji and some devotees along these lines. If I added some more

> confusion thro' this post or misread your post, pardon me.

>

October 13, 2004

vtca <vtca wrote:

adiyEn was not stating on my own that sEshatvam is

("might be") destroyed. I was only quoting what pUrvAcharyas

have said and what latter day acharyas have coommented on

them. Mumukshuppadi says clearly "azhikkum pOdhu" and all

commentaries that I have seen and heard on this state that

this refers to sEshatvam. One member in this forum said that

this means that simply the bhAvam is destroyed. I do not buy

that argument, as it sounds like the jIva is trying to fool

the Lord.

--\

------------

Dear Sriman Venkatesan,

By SEshatva bhAvam, I meant any ahankAram associated with it, i.e. we are SEsham

on our own. As I have been saying, we remain for Him in a way He wishes.

Take the case of BG 14-6. No commentary explains how sattva guNa binds us.

Someone thought and analyzed. According to her, it is not on its own but because

of our associated ahankAram. Otherwise it looks as if BG 14-6 supports advaitam.

Vishnu

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October 13, 2004

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

Dear Sriman TCA Venkatesan,

Humble praNAms to you. I know you didn't say anything on

your own(pAmbin kAl pambaRiyum:-)). I will surely share with the

rest of the group the moment I hear from Sri Chinna Jeeyar

swamiji,my AcAryA. Swamiji replied to some other questions of mine.

One devotee told me that sEshatvam is a broad term which includes

pAratantryam. That's why(the devotee said),sri piLLai lokAcAryAr

chose lakshmaNa for upEyam and he quoted nampiLLai referred

this "udanAy manni,vazhuvilA adimai" only to lakshmaNa. So,

obviously sEshatvam can not get destroyed. It gets shrunken and it

becomes pAratantryam(basically sEshatvam merges with pAratantryam if

my understanding is correct!). I am still interacting with the

devotees for further clarifications. I will post the updates.

I personally felt sEshatvam is hard to develop. It's all

the attitude. I don't know how many devotees would agree with me or

felt the same way as I do. When I look at my rangubai

(sriranganAtha),He gives me joy taht I chant sriranganAtha gadyam

and enjoy instead of thinking that I'm doing service to Him!!! It is

the thought that matters and I feel it's He who has to bless that

manOpakkuvam/manObhAvam also when we do that kaimkaryam to Him

(servitude attitude)/or His devotees. I have realized that I can not

develop that servitude attitude by free/self will/independence.

BTW,does not the Lord say He is the manas among the eleven senses

(BG10.22)? KaNNan vanjagan:-)

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

dAsAnu dAsI

NC Nappinnai

ramanuja, "vtca" <vtca> wrote:

>

> Dear Ms Nappinnai,

>

> adiyEn was not stating on my own that sEshatvam is

> ("might be") destroyed. I was only quoting what pUrvAcharyas

> have said and what latter day acharyas have coommented on

> them. Mumukshuppadi says clearly "azhikkum pOdhu" and all

> commentaries that I have seen and heard on this state that

> this refers to sEshatvam. One member in this forum said that

> this means that simply the bhAvam is destroyed. I do not buy

> that argument, as it sounds like the jIva is trying to fool

> the Lord. All examples used for this - such as Azhvar

> asking the Lord to massage his other feet, etc - indicate

> that the role reversal is complete.

>

> If sEshatvam alone is destroyed, then it is against the

> nature of the jIva. However, if that brings out

> pAratantriyam, then it only means that the "ellai nilam"

> of sEshatvam has been brought out. That means, the jIva

> shines at its brightest in being a sEsha to the Lord. I

> think this has been discussed plenty in this forum. So,

> I am not sure I am adding anything new here.

>

> I would be interested to hear what your interactions with

> other acharyas and scholars indicate. So, please do keep

> us posted if you can.

>

> adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

October 13, 2004

ramanuja, Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan> wrote:

>

> Samin,

>

> Independence is there and free will is there for all of us. That is

the sensual

> reality part of our lives.

>

> Go deeper, you find that all is by his will.

Then where is independence?

>

>>

> So free will should no to surrender fully with senses. Paratantryam

should be sought with self will.

If we seek pAratantryam out of our will, how is it pAratantryam?

Dasan

Vishnu

October 14, 2004

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

> > So free will should no to surrender fully with senses.

> > Paratantryam should be sought with self will.

> If we seek pAratantryam out of our will, how is it pAratantryam?

Dear Vishnu,probably there exist(!)two pAratantryams,for those who

believe in freewill and those who don't believe:-) We can atleast

improve our english vocabulary(if not knowledge in our sampradAyam)

by playing with words like this!

> Dasan

> Vishnu

October 15, 2004

Well,

We have independence(swa). Using that independence(swa), if we give

up that very independence then that is pAratantryam(dependencde).

adiyen,

rAmAnuja dAsan

ramanuja, "Vishnu" <vsmvishnu> wrote:

>

> ramanuja, Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan>

wrote:

> >

> > Samin,

> >

> > Independence is there and free will is there for all of us. That

is

> the sensual

> > reality part of our lives.

> >

> > Go deeper, you find that all is by his will.

>

> Then where is independence?

>

> >

> >>

> > So free will should no to surrender fully with senses.

Paratantryam

> should be sought with self will.

>

> If we seek pAratantryam out of our will, how is it pAratantryam?

>

> Dasan

> Vishnu

October 15, 2004

Vishnu,

There is a small story that my grandpa used to tell me. There was a believer and

a non-believer.

The believer used to say all is due to god only. They had a bet on one petty

issue and the non-believer said now logically this should happen this way and

that is god's will

no. believer dint open his mouth. the issue happened the other way. Now the non

guy

told the believer said see now tell me where is your god.

BELIEVER QUITELY SAID, NOW SEE HE WILLED IT THE OTHER WAY, WHICH WAS NOT LOGICAL

ACCORDING TO YOU. HE USED YOU AS A TOOL TO DO IT THE WAY HE WANTS.

You should understand this swatantriyam is nothing but ignorance.

Dasan/raghavan

vaidhehi_nc <nappinnai_nc wrote:

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

> > So free will should no to surrender fully with senses.

> > Paratantryam should be sought with self will.

> If we seek pAratantryam out of our will, how is it pAratantryam?

Dear Vishnu,probably there exist(!)two pAratantryams,for those who

believe in freewill and those who don't believe:-) We can atleast

improve our english vocabulary(if not knowledge in our sampradAyam)

by playing with words like this!

> Dasan

> Vishnu

azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

ramanuja/

ramanuja

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October 16, 2004

Dear All

The concept of paratantriam is expalined by Thondar adipodi Azhwar in his

Thirumalai, 38th pasuram which is as follows.This is the core pasuram of

Thirumalai.

mEmporuL pOha vittu * meymmaiyai mika uNarndhu,*

aamparisaRindhu koNdu * aimpulan ahaththadakki,*

kaampaRath thalai siraiththu* un kadaiththalai irundhu,vaazhum*

sOmbarai uhaththi pOlum * soozhpunal araNGgath thaanE! (2) (38)

Memporul pogavittu--Keeping aside concept of moksha and all that(

Memporul-moksham)

Meymaiyai migavunarndhu---understanding the nature of Sriman Narayana(meymai-

The Lord)

Ambarisu arindhukondu---knowing the real aim of life (ambarisu-kainkaryam)

Aimbulan agathatakki---controlling the five senses

Kambara Thalai siraithu---giving up all ego

Un kadaitalai irunthu ---residing in your vicinity

Vazum sombarai--- the real paratantrins( sombar- people of such nature)

Ugathi polum----you seem to like these people

Soozh punal arangathane---- God Ranganatha

The free will or the swatantriam of the soul is thus surrendered as sung by the

Azhwar.

The paratantriam is a state of mind.

Adiyen Ramanujadasan

Soundararajan

Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar thiruvadigale sharanam.

Lakshmi Narasimhan <nrusimhann wrote:

Well,

We have independence(swa). Using that independence(swa), if we give

up that very independence then that is pAratantryam(dependencde).

adiyen,

rAmAnuja dAsan

ramanuja/

ramanuja

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October 18, 2004

ramanuja, rajan s <rajan_ramaswamy> wrote:

>

> Dear All

>

> The free will or the swatantriam of the soul is thus surrendered as

sung by the Azhwar.

Dear Sriman Soundararajan,

To be very frank, I do not know whether we have swAtantryam or

pAratantryam except for going by some concepts.

Now I will ask you one question. The free will or swAtantyram is shed

out of our free will or not?

Dasan

Vishnu

> The paratantriam is a state of mind.

>

Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar thiruvadigale sharanam.

>

> Lakshmi Narasimhan <nrusimhann> wrote:

>

> Well,

> We have independence(swa). Using that independence(swa), if we give

> up that very independence then that is pAratantryam(dependencde).

> adiyen,

> rAmAnuja dAsan

>

> Sponsor

>

> Links

>

> ramanuja/

>

> ramanuja

>

> Terms of

Service.

>

> vote. - Register online to vote today!

>

October 18, 2004

Swamin,

Swtantryam will aim for paratantryam only if emperuman's swatantryam decides so.

Dasan/raghvan

Vishnu <vsmvishnu wrote:

ramanuja, rajan s <rajan_ramaswamy> wrote:

>

> Dear All

>

> The free will or the swatantriam of the soul is thus surrendered as

sung by the Azhwar.

Dear Sriman Soundararajan,

To be very frank, I do not know whether we have swAtantryam or

pAratantryam except for going by some concepts.

Now I will ask you one question. The free will or swAtantyram is shed

out of our free will or not?

Dasan

Vishnu

> The paratantriam is a state of mind.

>

Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar thiruvadigale sharanam.

>

> Lakshmi Narasimhan <nrusimhann> wrote:

>

> Well,

> We have independence(swa). Using that independence(swa), if we give

> up that very independence then that is pAratantryam(dependencde).

> adiyen,

> rAmAnuja dAsan

>

> Sponsor

>

> Links

>

> ramanuja/

>

> ramanuja

>

> Terms of

Service.

>

> vote. - Register online to vote today!

>

azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

ramanuja/

ramanuja

October 19, 2004

Dear Sriman Vishnu,

I get the feeling that you are driving toward the idea

that shedding free will or accepting sEshatvam is also

His act and not ours.

In which case, here's my question: if a soul does not

accept its sEshatva nature or claims it is a swatantra

(and most of us qualify for this) - is that act one of

free will of the jIvAtma or not? I am sure you see my

concern here. Everyone will then justify every act of

their's as that of the paramAtma's.

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

ramanuja, "Vishnu" <vsmvishnu> wrote:

> Now I will ask you one question. The free will or swAtantyram is

shed

> out of our free will or not?

>

> Dasan

> Vishnu

>

October 20, 2004

Dear Sriman Raghavan,

Then I go by your other mails. It is not swAtantryam in its real sense but

ignorance or thinking that we are swatantram. This kind of thought that we are

indepenent is called ahankAram in pUrvAchArya texts. Lord will allow our acts to

be accordingly, with full control on them. He will give us bhakti whenever He

wishes and not by mechanically browsing vEdas etc., as explained by krshNa and

interpreted by rAmAnuja.

Nice to see your analysis.

Dasan

Vishnu

Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan wrote:

Swamin,

Swtantryam will aim for paratantryam only if emperuman's swatantryam decides so.

Dasan/raghvan

Vishnu wrote:

ramanuja, rajan s wrote:

>

> Dear All

>

> The free will or the swatantriam of the soul is thus surrendered as

sung by the Azhwar.

Dear Sriman Soundararajan,

To be very frank, I do not know whether we have swAtantryam or

pAratantryam except for going by some concepts.

Now I will ask you one question. The free will or swAtantyram is shed

out of our free will or not?

Dasan

Vishnu

> The paratantriam is a state of mind.

>

Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar thiruvadigale sharanam.

>

> Lakshmi Narasimhan wrote:

>

> Well,

> We have independence(swa). Using that independence(swa), if we give

> up that very independence then that is pAratantryam(dependencde).

> adiyen,

> rAmAnuja dAsan

>

> Sponsor

>

> Links

>

> ramanuja/

>

> ramanuja

>

> Terms of

Service.

>

> vote. - Register online to vote today!

>

azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

ramanuja/

ramanuja

azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

vote. - Register online to vote today!

October 20, 2004

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

This post reminded me of the Physicist Einstein's quote:

Either you consider everything as God's miracle or human effort(One

can't have both as it sounds ridiculous). Which category an

individual belongs to is upto the the individual's mental

status/growth!

> TCA writes:Everyone will then justify every act of their's as that

> of the paramAtma's.

Dear TCA,How do you explain AzhvArs stance,that is, attributing

everything to emperumAn?

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam

dAsAnu dAsI

NC Nappinnai

ramanuja, Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan> wrote:

>

> Swamin,

>

> We need not worry, what the lesser developed souls will do. We

cannot be thinking

> what will happen if they will take advantage of this arguement.

>

> See it is very clear that Paramatma is everything. We are born as

willed by him. We donot have the choice of parents. It is only the

subtle soul that controls this entire

> drama called life.

>

> By sadana the jivatma, gets the knowledge. Now people may ask, I

want to be Ramanuja

> why am i not able to be? Why is it that I go behind women and wine

though I want to

> lead a pious life? Now where is SWATANTRYAM? The swatantryam of

the Jiva is also

> able to act only with the will of GOD and paratantryam.

>

> Hope this clarifies.

>

> Dasan/raghavan

>

> vtca <vtca> wrote:

>

> Dear Sriman Vishnu,

>

> I get the feeling that you are driving toward the idea

> that shedding free will or accepting sEshatvam is also

> His act and not ours.

>

> In which case, here's my question: if a soul does not

> accept its sEshatva nature or claims it is a swatantra

> (and most of us qualify for this) - is that act one of

> free will of the jIvAtma or not? I am sure you see my

> concern here. Everyone will then justify every act of

> their's as that of the paramAtma's.

>

> adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

>

> ramanuja, "Vishnu" <vsmvishnu> wrote:

> > Now I will ask you one question. The free will or swAtantyram is

> shed

> > out of our free will or not?

> >

> > Dasan

> > Vishnu

> >

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