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Dear Sri mahavishNu sharman:

 

Namaste. There was a deviation from the main thread from yajur-vedic

legends to sanskrit grammatical syntax. Rest assured that I have no

intentions to re-write samskrta vyAkaraNam and I very well know the

differences between tenuis, tenuis aspirata, media, media aspirata

and nasalis forms of labial phonemes, despite the large gap (more

than a decade) between now and my formal sanskrit education.

 

Having said this, "trishtuB" (or its variants trStuB, triStubh etc.)

are what I encountered in my madhyandina as well as kaNva shatapatha

brAhmaNa texts. Moreover, this is the term that I consistently saw in

Max Mueller's translation of upanishads & portions of Rg mandalas,

Buhler's translation of dharma sUtras, A.B. Keith's translation of

black-yajus samhita and various European indoligists' books &

articles. I am willing to agree that I am wrong along with all the

European indologists.

 

I also forwarded my doubt to my acquaintance who is a trivedi, vedic

scholar and sanskrit scholar (recently participated in a sOma yAga in

Maharashtra). I am reproducing portion of his reply. Inferences can

be drawn at one's conveniences.

 

"...Correct nominative singular form that you will find in any

dictionary or vedic text is triShTubh. You may find the form triSTup

only in sandhi as triSTupchandas- this is the form in the vedic

anukramaNikas.

You may encounter a variant sandhi in AV chandas tarpaNaM mantra eg:

triShTubgAyatryuShNikanuShtubjagati ...

 

So your guy is wrong..."

 

Best wishes & regards,

KK

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WIth atmost respect, how are these discussions anyway related to Ramanuja's or

Manavala Mamuni's message?? I guess this forum is to encourage each other on

Bagavathvishayam, prapatti to Lord Sriman Narayana and glorifying the leelas of

the Lord and his devotees.

 

Adi ShankarA's words spring to my mind:

 

"samprApte sannihite kAle

nahi nahi rakShati dukrunjkaraNe"

 

Nothing personal.

 

Dasan,

 

Kidambi Soundararajan.

 

AzhwAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE Saranam.

 

 

 

amshuman_k <amshuman_k wrote:

Dear Sri mahavishNu sharman:

 

Namaste. There was a deviation from the main thread from yajur-vedic

legends to sanskrit grammatical syntax. Rest assured that I have no

intentions to re-write samskrta vyAkaraNam and I very well know the

differences between tenuis, tenuis aspirata, media, media aspirata

and nasalis forms of labial phonemes, despite the large gap (more

than a decade) between now and my formal sanskrit education.

 

Having said this, "trishtuB" (or its variants trStuB, triStubh etc.)

are what I encountered in my madhyandina as well as kaNva shatapatha

brAhmaNa texts. Moreover, this is the term that I consistently saw in

Max Mueller's translation of upanishads & portions of Rg mandalas,

Buhler's translation of dharma sUtras, A.B. Keith's translation of

black-yajus samhita and various European indoligists' books &

articles. I am willing to agree that I am wrong along with all the

European indologists.

 

I also forwarded my doubt to my acquaintance who is a trivedi, vedic

scholar and sanskrit scholar (recently participated in a sOma yAga in

Maharashtra). I am reproducing portion of his reply. Inferences can

be drawn at one's conveniences.

 

"...Correct nominative singular form that you will find in any

dictionary or vedic text is triShTubh. You may find the form triSTup

only in sandhi as triSTupchandas- this is the form in the vedic

anukramaNikas.

You may encounter a variant sandhi in AV chandas tarpaNaM mantra eg:

triShTubgAyatryuShNikanuShtubjagati ...

 

So your guy is wrong..."

 

Best wishes & regards,

KK

 

 

 

 

 

 

azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

 

 

 

 

ramanuja/

 

ramanuja

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tax Center - File online by April 15th

 

 

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ramanuja, "amshuman_k" <amshuman_k> wrote:

> Dear Sri mahavishNu sharman:

>

> Namaste. There was a deviation from the main thread from yajur-

vedic

> legends to sanskrit grammatical syntax. Rest assured that I have no

> intentions to re-write samskrta vyAkaraNam and I very well know the

> differences between tenuis, tenuis aspirata, media, media aspirata

> and nasalis forms of labial phonemes, despite the large gap (more

> than a decade) between now and my formal sanskrit education.

 

Namaste

 

Please read my previous mail carefully alongwith what you have quoted

below. Then you will understand how you are wrong.

 

Kindly be magnanimous enough to admit your mistake and do not bring

Max Mueller et al. into picture. Such a state of mind can be attained

only when you consider yourself to be a "dAsa".

 

upanishad(h) is also wrong and upanishat(h) is right unless there is

a sandhi.

 

As my brother pANardAsan has rightly said

 

"samprAptE sannihita kAlE

nahi nahi rakShati dukrunjkaraNE" -- Adi Sankara

 

> "...Correct nominative singular form that you will find in any

> dictionary or vedic text is triShTubh. You may find the form

triSTup

> only in sandhi as triSTupchandas- this is the form in the vedic

> anukramaNikas.

> You may encounter a variant sandhi in AV chandas tarpaNaM mantra eg:

> triShTubgAyatryuShNikanuShtubjagati ...

 

The last line is not fool-proof. It has to be

triShTubgAyatryuShNiganuShtubjagati....

 

Regards

Vishnu

>

> So your guy is wrong..."

>

> Best wishes & regards,

> KK

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Dear Bhagavataas,

 

Added to this I would also quote a verse from Kulashekaralvar's Mukunda mala:

 

"prANa prayANa samayE kapha vAta pittaihi

kanThavarodhana Vidhou smaranam kutaste"

 

Regards

Mohan.R

 

 

On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 vimalkumar ranganathan wrote :

>WIth atmost respect, how are these discussions anyway related to Ramanuja's or

Manavala Mamuni's message?? I guess this forum is to encourage each other on

Bagavathvishayam, prapatti to Lord Sriman Narayana and glorifying the leelas of

the Lord and his devotees.

>

>Adi ShankarA's words spring to my mind:

>

>"samprApte sannihite kAle

>nahi nahi rakShati dukrunjkaraNe"

>

>Nothing personal.

>

>Dasan,

>

>Kidambi Soundararajan.

>

>AzhwAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE Saranam.

>

>

>

>amshuman_k <amshuman_k wrote:

>Dear Sri mahavishNu sharman:

>

>Namaste. There was a deviation from the main thread from yajur-vedic

>legends to sanskrit grammatical syntax. Rest assured that I have no

>intentions to re-write samskrta vyAkaraNam and I very well know the

>differences between tenuis, tenuis aspirata, media, media aspirata

>and nasalis forms of labial phonemes, despite the large gap (more

>than a decade) between now and my formal sanskrit education.

>

>Having said this, "trishtuB" (or its variants trStuB, triStubh etc.)

>are what I encountered in my madhyandina as well as kaNva shatapatha

>brAhmaNa texts. Moreover, this is the term that I consistently saw in

>Max Mueller's translation of upanishads & portions of Rg mandalas,

>Buhler's translation of dharma sUtras, A.B. Keith's translation of

>black-yajus samhita and various European indoligists' books &

>articles. I am willing to agree that I am wrong along with all the

>European indologists.

>

>I also forwarded my doubt to my acquaintance who is a trivedi, vedic

>scholar and sanskrit scholar (recently participated in a sOma yAga in

>Maharashtra). I am reproducing portion of his reply. Inferences can

>be drawn at one's conveniences.

>

>"...Correct nominative singular form that you will find in any

>dictionary or vedic text is triShTubh. You may find the form triSTup

>only in sandhi as triSTupchandas- this is the form in the vedic

>anukramaNikas.

>You may encounter a variant sandhi in AV chandas tarpaNaM mantra eg:

>triShTubgAyatryuShNikanuShtubjagati ...

>

>So your guy is wrong..."

>

>Best wishes & regards,

>KK

>

>

>

>

>

>

>azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

>

>

>

>

>

> Links

>

>

>ramanuja/

>

>

>ramanuja

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Tax Center - File online by April 15th

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

>

> Links

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

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Dear Shri VishNu sharman,

 

I would without hesitation accept if I am wrong. OTOH, I do not have

to simply accept a variant suggestion from an internet forum, when

all my sanskrit originals and english translations say otherwise. I

checked chanda sUtra of Pingala as well as Monier-williams. I

consulted two scholars - a vedic scholar and a sanskrit professor of

Hindu university who were kind enough to explain things. Seems your

sanskrit teacher owes you a refund.

 

eg:

> > triShTubgAyatryuShNikanuShtubjagati ...

>

> The last line is not fool-proof. It has to be

> triShTubgAyatryuShNiganuShtubjagati....

 

Well, now you want to re-write tarpaNa mantras of atharva-vedins? The

vedic scholar gave the exception to the sandhi-rule.

 

<Disclaimer: For those still interested...>

Excerpt from the reply from the sanskrit professor:

"..The declension of words ending in the 'Halant vyanjanas' is not a

common love topic of general sanskrit readers. However, the

grammar rules provide the rules for processing every halant vyanjana

ending, in all the three geneders.

 

In this specific case, the word 'TrishtuBh' is Halant 'Bh' ending

word. A similar word 'kakuBh' meaning 'Directions' is a 'Bh' ending

in feminine gender.

 

Due to the laxity in pronunciation, the 'Bh' is pronounced as 'soft

'bh'; Onece this laxity takes place, the next phase of this is

further laxity which causes the Jashtva sandhi shift of 'bh' to 'p'.

 

Incidentally the Prathama vibhakti - ekavachana declension form of

TrishtuBh (base word-pratipadika) - is 'Trishtup' ( with a 'p'

ending).

 

Following the rule that the processed words only should be used in

sanskrit sentence, the usage form of 'Trishtup' as seen in 'antyaa

trishtup chandah'is justified.

 

Similarly for 'Anushtup chandah'. 'AnushtuBh' is the base word;

Anushtup is the prathama vibhakti-ekavachana form.

 

Thanks for asking a good question which made me look in to the remote

sections of the grammar rule book...."

 

Regards,

KK

 

P.S.

Well, my humble suggestion - any further issues should be taken off-

line, as it has already deviated far from the central scope of the

list - SV dharma.

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Shriman Vimal,

The home page of our group starts with "... the way of life as taught

by vedic rishis and Azhwars...", which IMHO is broader than

Ramanuja's and mAmuni's messages. I apologize for the deviation and

excursions into samskrita-vyAkaraNa.

If our moderator wishes, I will desist from making posts on vedic

literature.

 

Thanks & regards,

KK

 

ramanuja, vimalkumar ranganathan

<panardasan> wrote:

> WIth atmost respect, how are these discussions anyway related to

Ramanuja's or Manavala Mamuni's message?? I guess this forum is to

encourage each other on Bagavathvishayam, prapatti to Lord Sriman

Narayana and glorifying the leelas of the Lord and his devotees.

>

> Adi ShankarA's words spring to my mind:

>

> "samprApte sannihite kAle

> nahi nahi rakShati dukrunjkaraNe"

>

> Nothing personal.

>

> Dasan,

>

> Kidambi Soundararajan.

>

> AzhwAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE Saranam.

>

>

>

> amshuman_k <amshuman_k> wrote:

> Dear Sri mahavishNu sharman:

>

> Namaste. There was a deviation from the main thread from yajur-

vedic

> legends to sanskrit grammatical syntax. Rest assured that I have no

> intentions to re-write samskrta vyAkaraNam and I very well know the

> differences between tenuis, tenuis aspirata, media, media aspirata

> and nasalis forms of labial phonemes, despite the large gap (more

> than a decade) between now and my formal sanskrit education.

>

> Having said this, "trishtuB" (or its variants trStuB, triStubh

etc.)

> are what I encountered in my madhyandina as well as kaNva

shatapatha

> brAhmaNa texts. Moreover, this is the term that I consistently saw

in

> Max Mueller's translation of upanishads & portions of Rg mandalas,

> Buhler's translation of dharma sUtras, A.B. Keith's translation of

> black-yajus samhita and various European indoligists' books &

> articles. I am willing to agree that I am wrong along with all the

> European indologists.

>

> I also forwarded my doubt to my acquaintance who is a trivedi,

vedic

> scholar and sanskrit scholar (recently participated in a sOma yAga

in

> Maharashtra). I am reproducing portion of his reply. Inferences can

> be drawn at one's conveniences.

>

> "...Correct nominative singular form that you will find in any

> dictionary or vedic text is triShTubh. You may find the form

triSTup

> only in sandhi as triSTupchandas- this is the form in the vedic

> anukramaNikas.

> You may encounter a variant sandhi in AV chandas tarpaNaM mantra eg:

> triShTubgAyatryuShNikanuShtubjagati ...

>

> So your guy is wrong..."

>

> Best wishes & regards,

> KK

azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

>

>

>

>

>

> Links

>

>

> ramanuja/

>

>

> ramanuja

>

> Terms of

Service.

>

>

>

>

>

> Tax Center - File online by April 15th

>

>

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Dear bhAgavatas:

 

This subject seems to be personal attack and each one wants to prove

that he is more knowledgeable than the other. Adiyen feel that the

moderator should stop this discussion any further. It is always

difficult to write sanskrit texts in other scripts. This subject is

nothing to do with great acharayas.

 

Dasan Srinivasan

 

amshuman_k wrote:

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Dear Mr Kasturi Rangan,

 

 

Anyone who has a knowledge of Telugu/Kannada/Hindi will let you know that your

stand on this issue is incorrect.

 

> >

> > The last line is not fool-proof. It has to be

> > triShTubgAyatryuShNiganuShtubjagati....

>

> Well, now you want to re-write tarpaNa mantras of atharva-vedins?

>The

> vedic scholar gave the exception to the sandhi-rule.

 

Good. What are the sandhis allowed in the above mantra and what are

the sandhis that are disallowed?

 

> In this specific case, the word 'TrishtuBh' is Halant 'Bh' ending

> word. A similar word 'kakuBh' meaning 'Directions' is a 'Bh' ending

> in feminine gender.

>

> Due to the laxity in pronunciation, the 'Bh' is pronounced as 'soft

> 'bh';

 

There is no such laxity for brahmins in major part of India.

 

>Onece this laxity takes place, the next phase of this is

> further laxity which causes the Jashtva sandhi shift

> of 'bh' .to 'p'.

 

You are re-writing jaStva sandhi, to justify one simple mistake

committed by you. That is not neither sanskrit nor samskAram, my dear

friend!

 

Can you explian what is jaStva sandhi according to you, and with a

few more exmaples?

 

 

Ramanuja Dasan

Vishnu

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I am late into the discussion but a small not.

 

k K g G jn

p P b B m

 

There is a sandhi called jashthva sandhi in Sanskit,

it goes likes this.

 

whenever the first vyanjanam is succeeded by the 3rd vyanjanam of different row,

then the first vyanjanam is replaced by its corresponding 3rd vyanjanam.

 

Like in this example.

 

triShTubgAyatryuShNiganuShtubjagati,

 

triShTup + gAyatryuShNiganuShtubjagati = triShTubgAyatryuShNiganuShtubjagati

 

 

Sandhis are made in mantras or shlokams to achieve the alankaram,

(Meter/Length).

 

Like we have anushtup, trishtup, mAlini, ShArdUla VikrIditham

 

Regards

Vijay

 

 

 

Vishnu [vsmvishnu]

Sunday, April 18, 2004 9:45 PM

ramanuja

[ramanuja] Re: trishtubh vs trishtup

 

 

 

 

Dear Mr Kasturi Rangan,

 

 

Anyone who has a knowledge of Telugu/Kannada/Hindi will let you know that your

stand on this issue is incorrect.

 

> >

> > The last line is not fool-proof. It has to be

> > triShTubgAyatryuShNiganuShtubjagati....

>

> Well, now you want to re-write tarpaNa mantras of atharva-vedins?

>The

> vedic scholar gave the exception to the sandhi-rule.

 

Good. What are the sandhis allowed in the above mantra and what are

the sandhis that are disallowed?

 

> In this specific case, the word 'TrishtuBh' is Halant 'Bh' ending

> word. A similar word 'kakuBh' meaning 'Directions' is a 'Bh' ending

> in feminine gender.

>

> Due to the laxity in pronunciation, the 'Bh' is pronounced as 'soft

> 'bh';

 

There is no such laxity for brahmins in major part of India.

 

>Onece this laxity takes place, the next phase of this is

> further laxity which causes the Jashtva sandhi shift

> of 'bh' .to 'p'.

 

You are re-writing jaStva sandhi, to justify one simple mistake

committed by you. That is not neither sanskrit nor samskAram, my dear

friend!

 

Can you explian what is jaStva sandhi according to you, and with a

few more exmaples?

 

 

Ramanuja Dasan

Vishnu

 

 

 

 

azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

 

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