Guest guest Report post Posted April 14, 2004 Dear Sri mahavishNu sharman: Namaste. There was a deviation from the main thread from yajur-vedic legends to sanskrit grammatical syntax. Rest assured that I have no intentions to re-write samskrta vyAkaraNam and I very well know the differences between tenuis, tenuis aspirata, media, media aspirata and nasalis forms of labial phonemes, despite the large gap (more than a decade) between now and my formal sanskrit education. Having said this, "trishtuB" (or its variants trStuB, triStubh etc.) are what I encountered in my madhyandina as well as kaNva shatapatha brAhmaNa texts. Moreover, this is the term that I consistently saw in Max Mueller's translation of upanishads & portions of Rg mandalas, Buhler's translation of dharma sUtras, A.B. Keith's translation of black-yajus samhita and various European indoligists' books & articles. I am willing to agree that I am wrong along with all the European indologists. I also forwarded my doubt to my acquaintance who is a trivedi, vedic scholar and sanskrit scholar (recently participated in a sOma yAga in Maharashtra). I am reproducing portion of his reply. Inferences can be drawn at one's conveniences. "...Correct nominative singular form that you will find in any dictionary or vedic text is triShTubh. You may find the form triSTup only in sandhi as triSTupchandas- this is the form in the vedic anukramaNikas. You may encounter a variant sandhi in AV chandas tarpaNaM mantra eg: triShTubgAyatryuShNikanuShtubjagati ... So your guy is wrong..." Best wishes & regards, KK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 15, 2004 WIth atmost respect, how are these discussions anyway related to Ramanuja's or Manavala Mamuni's message?? I guess this forum is to encourage each other on Bagavathvishayam, prapatti to Lord Sriman Narayana and glorifying the leelas of the Lord and his devotees. Adi ShankarA's words spring to my mind: "samprApte sannihite kAle nahi nahi rakShati dukrunjkaraNe" Nothing personal. Dasan, Kidambi Soundararajan. AzhwAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE Saranam. amshuman_k <amshuman_k wrote: Dear Sri mahavishNu sharman: Namaste. There was a deviation from the main thread from yajur-vedic legends to sanskrit grammatical syntax. Rest assured that I have no intentions to re-write samskrta vyAkaraNam and I very well know the differences between tenuis, tenuis aspirata, media, media aspirata and nasalis forms of labial phonemes, despite the large gap (more than a decade) between now and my formal sanskrit education. Having said this, "trishtuB" (or its variants trStuB, triStubh etc.) are what I encountered in my madhyandina as well as kaNva shatapatha brAhmaNa texts. Moreover, this is the term that I consistently saw in Max Mueller's translation of upanishads & portions of Rg mandalas, Buhler's translation of dharma sUtras, A.B. Keith's translation of black-yajus samhita and various European indoligists' books & articles. I am willing to agree that I am wrong along with all the European indologists. I also forwarded my doubt to my acquaintance who is a trivedi, vedic scholar and sanskrit scholar (recently participated in a sOma yAga in Maharashtra). I am reproducing portion of his reply. Inferences can be drawn at one's conveniences. "...Correct nominative singular form that you will find in any dictionary or vedic text is triShTubh. You may find the form triSTup only in sandhi as triSTupchandas- this is the form in the vedic anukramaNikas. You may encounter a variant sandhi in AV chandas tarpaNaM mantra eg: triShTubgAyatryuShNikanuShtubjagati ... So your guy is wrong..." Best wishes & regards, KK azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam ramanuja/ ramanuja Tax Center - File online by April 15th Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 16, 2004 ramanuja, "amshuman_k" <amshuman_k> wrote: > Dear Sri mahavishNu sharman: > > Namaste. There was a deviation from the main thread from yajur- vedic > legends to sanskrit grammatical syntax. Rest assured that I have no > intentions to re-write samskrta vyAkaraNam and I very well know the > differences between tenuis, tenuis aspirata, media, media aspirata > and nasalis forms of labial phonemes, despite the large gap (more > than a decade) between now and my formal sanskrit education. Namaste Please read my previous mail carefully alongwith what you have quoted below. Then you will understand how you are wrong. Kindly be magnanimous enough to admit your mistake and do not bring Max Mueller et al. into picture. Such a state of mind can be attained only when you consider yourself to be a "dAsa". upanishad(h) is also wrong and upanishat(h) is right unless there is a sandhi. As my brother pANardAsan has rightly said "samprAptE sannihita kAlE nahi nahi rakShati dukrunjkaraNE" -- Adi Sankara > "...Correct nominative singular form that you will find in any > dictionary or vedic text is triShTubh. You may find the form triSTup > only in sandhi as triSTupchandas- this is the form in the vedic > anukramaNikas. > You may encounter a variant sandhi in AV chandas tarpaNaM mantra eg: > triShTubgAyatryuShNikanuShtubjagati ... The last line is not fool-proof. It has to be triShTubgAyatryuShNiganuShtubjagati.... Regards Vishnu > > So your guy is wrong..." > > Best wishes & regards, > KK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 16, 2004 Dear Bhagavataas, Added to this I would also quote a verse from Kulashekaralvar's Mukunda mala: "prANa prayANa samayE kapha vAta pittaihi kanThavarodhana Vidhou smaranam kutaste" Regards Mohan.R On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 vimalkumar ranganathan wrote : >WIth atmost respect, how are these discussions anyway related to Ramanuja's or Manavala Mamuni's message?? I guess this forum is to encourage each other on Bagavathvishayam, prapatti to Lord Sriman Narayana and glorifying the leelas of the Lord and his devotees. > >Adi ShankarA's words spring to my mind: > >"samprApte sannihite kAle >nahi nahi rakShati dukrunjkaraNe" > >Nothing personal. > >Dasan, > >Kidambi Soundararajan. > >AzhwAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE Saranam. > > > >amshuman_k <amshuman_k wrote: >Dear Sri mahavishNu sharman: > >Namaste. There was a deviation from the main thread from yajur-vedic >legends to sanskrit grammatical syntax. Rest assured that I have no >intentions to re-write samskrta vyAkaraNam and I very well know the >differences between tenuis, tenuis aspirata, media, media aspirata >and nasalis forms of labial phonemes, despite the large gap (more >than a decade) between now and my formal sanskrit education. > >Having said this, "trishtuB" (or its variants trStuB, triStubh etc.) >are what I encountered in my madhyandina as well as kaNva shatapatha >brAhmaNa texts. Moreover, this is the term that I consistently saw in >Max Mueller's translation of upanishads & portions of Rg mandalas, >Buhler's translation of dharma sUtras, A.B. Keith's translation of >black-yajus samhita and various European indoligists' books & >articles. I am willing to agree that I am wrong along with all the >European indologists. > >I also forwarded my doubt to my acquaintance who is a trivedi, vedic >scholar and sanskrit scholar (recently participated in a sOma yAga in >Maharashtra). I am reproducing portion of his reply. Inferences can >be drawn at one's conveniences. > >"...Correct nominative singular form that you will find in any >dictionary or vedic text is triShTubh. You may find the form triSTup >only in sandhi as triSTupchandas- this is the form in the vedic >anukramaNikas. >You may encounter a variant sandhi in AV chandas tarpaNaM mantra eg: >triShTubgAyatryuShNikanuShtubjagati ... > >So your guy is wrong..." > >Best wishes & regards, >KK > > > > > > >azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam > > > > > > Links > > >ramanuja/ > > >ramanuja > > > > > > > > Tax Center - File online by April 15th > > > > > > > >azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam > > Links > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 16, 2004 Dear Shri VishNu sharman, I would without hesitation accept if I am wrong. OTOH, I do not have to simply accept a variant suggestion from an internet forum, when all my sanskrit originals and english translations say otherwise. I checked chanda sUtra of Pingala as well as Monier-williams. I consulted two scholars - a vedic scholar and a sanskrit professor of Hindu university who were kind enough to explain things. Seems your sanskrit teacher owes you a refund. eg: > > triShTubgAyatryuShNikanuShtubjagati ... > > The last line is not fool-proof. It has to be > triShTubgAyatryuShNiganuShtubjagati.... Well, now you want to re-write tarpaNa mantras of atharva-vedins? The vedic scholar gave the exception to the sandhi-rule. <Disclaimer: For those still interested...> Excerpt from the reply from the sanskrit professor: "..The declension of words ending in the 'Halant vyanjanas' is not a common love topic of general sanskrit readers. However, the grammar rules provide the rules for processing every halant vyanjana ending, in all the three geneders. In this specific case, the word 'TrishtuBh' is Halant 'Bh' ending word. A similar word 'kakuBh' meaning 'Directions' is a 'Bh' ending in feminine gender. Due to the laxity in pronunciation, the 'Bh' is pronounced as 'soft 'bh'; Onece this laxity takes place, the next phase of this is further laxity which causes the Jashtva sandhi shift of 'bh' to 'p'. Incidentally the Prathama vibhakti - ekavachana declension form of TrishtuBh (base word-pratipadika) - is 'Trishtup' ( with a 'p' ending). Following the rule that the processed words only should be used in sanskrit sentence, the usage form of 'Trishtup' as seen in 'antyaa trishtup chandah'is justified. Similarly for 'Anushtup chandah'. 'AnushtuBh' is the base word; Anushtup is the prathama vibhakti-ekavachana form. Thanks for asking a good question which made me look in to the remote sections of the grammar rule book...." Regards, KK P.S. Well, my humble suggestion - any further issues should be taken off- line, as it has already deviated far from the central scope of the list - SV dharma. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 16, 2004 Shriman Vimal, The home page of our group starts with "... the way of life as taught by vedic rishis and Azhwars...", which IMHO is broader than Ramanuja's and mAmuni's messages. I apologize for the deviation and excursions into samskrita-vyAkaraNa. If our moderator wishes, I will desist from making posts on vedic literature. Thanks & regards, KK ramanuja, vimalkumar ranganathan <panardasan> wrote: > WIth atmost respect, how are these discussions anyway related to Ramanuja's or Manavala Mamuni's message?? I guess this forum is to encourage each other on Bagavathvishayam, prapatti to Lord Sriman Narayana and glorifying the leelas of the Lord and his devotees. > > Adi ShankarA's words spring to my mind: > > "samprApte sannihite kAle > nahi nahi rakShati dukrunjkaraNe" > > Nothing personal. > > Dasan, > > Kidambi Soundararajan. > > AzhwAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE Saranam. > > > > amshuman_k <amshuman_k> wrote: > Dear Sri mahavishNu sharman: > > Namaste. There was a deviation from the main thread from yajur- vedic > legends to sanskrit grammatical syntax. Rest assured that I have no > intentions to re-write samskrta vyAkaraNam and I very well know the > differences between tenuis, tenuis aspirata, media, media aspirata > and nasalis forms of labial phonemes, despite the large gap (more > than a decade) between now and my formal sanskrit education. > > Having said this, "trishtuB" (or its variants trStuB, triStubh etc.) > are what I encountered in my madhyandina as well as kaNva shatapatha > brAhmaNa texts. Moreover, this is the term that I consistently saw in > Max Mueller's translation of upanishads & portions of Rg mandalas, > Buhler's translation of dharma sUtras, A.B. Keith's translation of > black-yajus samhita and various European indoligists' books & > articles. I am willing to agree that I am wrong along with all the > European indologists. > > I also forwarded my doubt to my acquaintance who is a trivedi, vedic > scholar and sanskrit scholar (recently participated in a sOma yAga in > Maharashtra). I am reproducing portion of his reply. Inferences can > be drawn at one's conveniences. > > "...Correct nominative singular form that you will find in any > dictionary or vedic text is triShTubh. You may find the form triSTup > only in sandhi as triSTupchandas- this is the form in the vedic > anukramaNikas. > You may encounter a variant sandhi in AV chandas tarpaNaM mantra eg: > triShTubgAyatryuShNikanuShtubjagati ... > > So your guy is wrong..." > > Best wishes & regards, > KK azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam > > > > > > Links > > > ramanuja/ > > > ramanuja > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > Tax Center - File online by April 15th > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 17, 2004 Dear bhAgavatas: This subject seems to be personal attack and each one wants to prove that he is more knowledgeable than the other. Adiyen feel that the moderator should stop this discussion any further. It is always difficult to write sanskrit texts in other scripts. This subject is nothing to do with great acharayas. Dasan Srinivasan amshuman_k wrote: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 18, 2004 Dear Mr Kasturi Rangan, Anyone who has a knowledge of Telugu/Kannada/Hindi will let you know that your stand on this issue is incorrect. > > > > The last line is not fool-proof. It has to be > > triShTubgAyatryuShNiganuShtubjagati.... > > Well, now you want to re-write tarpaNa mantras of atharva-vedins? >The > vedic scholar gave the exception to the sandhi-rule. Good. What are the sandhis allowed in the above mantra and what are the sandhis that are disallowed? > In this specific case, the word 'TrishtuBh' is Halant 'Bh' ending > word. A similar word 'kakuBh' meaning 'Directions' is a 'Bh' ending > in feminine gender. > > Due to the laxity in pronunciation, the 'Bh' is pronounced as 'soft > 'bh'; There is no such laxity for brahmins in major part of India. >Onece this laxity takes place, the next phase of this is > further laxity which causes the Jashtva sandhi shift > of 'bh' .to 'p'. You are re-writing jaStva sandhi, to justify one simple mistake committed by you. That is not neither sanskrit nor samskAram, my dear friend! Can you explian what is jaStva sandhi according to you, and with a few more exmaples? Ramanuja Dasan Vishnu Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 19, 2004 I am late into the discussion but a small not. k K g G jn p P b B m There is a sandhi called jashthva sandhi in Sanskit, it goes likes this. whenever the first vyanjanam is succeeded by the 3rd vyanjanam of different row, then the first vyanjanam is replaced by its corresponding 3rd vyanjanam. Like in this example. triShTubgAyatryuShNiganuShtubjagati, triShTup + gAyatryuShNiganuShtubjagati = triShTubgAyatryuShNiganuShtubjagati Sandhis are made in mantras or shlokams to achieve the alankaram, (Meter/Length). Like we have anushtup, trishtup, mAlini, ShArdUla VikrIditham Regards Vijay Vishnu [vsmvishnu] Sunday, April 18, 2004 9:45 PM ramanuja [ramanuja] Re: trishtubh vs trishtup Dear Mr Kasturi Rangan, Anyone who has a knowledge of Telugu/Kannada/Hindi will let you know that your stand on this issue is incorrect. > > > > The last line is not fool-proof. It has to be > > triShTubgAyatryuShNiganuShtubjagati.... > > Well, now you want to re-write tarpaNa mantras of atharva-vedins? >The > vedic scholar gave the exception to the sandhi-rule. Good. What are the sandhis allowed in the above mantra and what are the sandhis that are disallowed? > In this specific case, the word 'TrishtuBh' is Halant 'Bh' ending > word. A similar word 'kakuBh' meaning 'Directions' is a 'Bh' ending > in feminine gender. > > Due to the laxity in pronunciation, the 'Bh' is pronounced as 'soft > 'bh'; There is no such laxity for brahmins in major part of India. >Onece this laxity takes place, the next phase of this is > further laxity which causes the Jashtva sandhi shift > of 'bh' .to 'p'. You are re-writing jaStva sandhi, to justify one simple mistake committed by you. That is not neither sanskrit nor samskAram, my dear friend! Can you explian what is jaStva sandhi according to you, and with a few more exmaples? Ramanuja Dasan Vishnu azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam Links Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
