Thirumaalai-2

May 15, 2002

Sri Parthasarathi thunai,

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha

“ Mattrondrum Venda Maname Madhilarangar

Kattrinum meitha kazhalinai keezh- uttra

Thirumaalai paadum seer Thondaradipodi Emperumaanai

Eppozhudum peesu”

“Srimat Krishna samahvaya Namo yaamuna soonave

yetkadakshai kalakshyanam sulabha: Sridara: sadaa”

Pranams,

“Manisarukkai Padadana Pattu” - Emperuman undergoes

number of hardships for the sake of we Jeevatmas. Let

us now see what all hardships the emperuman undergoes.

In the last posting we said that PVP starts the

avadharikai with a question. Who a samsari is? Sri

Periya vaachan pillai asks such a question because he

doesn’t belong to that category and wants to keep

himself away from them. But all of us know who a

samsari is. “Asaare Samsare Vishaya visha

sangaakudiya:”. The samsaris are always at the back

of some vishayam(matter). Whenever we call them to

bhagavat vishayam they have some way to say no. They

consider many more things important and highly urgent

to be done when it comes to bhagavat vishayam. But

saddhus like PVP considered the samsaaric pleasures to

be equal to a poison which kills us little by little.

Samsaaric pleasures are like a disease and only

medicine to this disease is Emperuman and bhagavat

vishayam. But leaving this medicine the samsaris

prefer to drink the poison. But can the Emperuman who

is the father of all simply see his children drink

poison? So he by his apaara Kaarunyam tries to pull

us out of this.

But if he says don’t go at the back of samsaaric

pleasures instead fall under my feet I will protect

you then there is not even a single person to listen

to him. When a child eats mud though we condemn its

act it tends to eat but now without our knowledge. So

the mother now lets it to eat and also keeps the

medicine necessary handy. When the child suffers she

gives the medicine and teaches the child a lesson.

Similarly we jeevatmas will never listen to advices so

the emperuman lets us in our own way and then teaches

us a lesson. But unfortunately even after a lot of

miseries the vaasana of the jeevatmas still pulls him

only towards the worldly pleasures and never turns his

attention towards the bhagavan.

So as Nammazhvar says “Maari Maari pala pirappum

pirandhu” and Sri Adisankarar says “ Punarappi Maranam

Punarappi Jananam” the cycle of life and death

continues. The jeevatma does papam or punyam in this

world and undergoes the svarga vaasam or Naraga vaasam

and then comes back to the world with the vaasanas of

the previous birth. In Vedanta such a jeevatma is

called Anusayi. Vedantha also says “Gatha Gatham Kaama

kaama labhanthe” . Thus the jeevatmas do punyam or

papam in this world, both of which will ultimately

bring them back to this world only. You may all

wonder why PVP is telling all these things in the

avatharikai to this Prabhandam! It is to increase our

Vairakhyam. Only when we get little detached from

this world we can think about the other

world(Bhagavan and Bhagavat vishayam). Even when we

have to sit in a upanyasam for 2 hours we have to

leave other activities in this world, right? That

again needs some vairakhyam. Only to build this

vairakhyam Sri PVP starts his vyakhyanam with such an

avadharikai. As our acharyas say when we see the world

we cannot see bhagavan and when we see bhagavan the

world never enters our vision.

The jeevan which has nullified its punyams in the

Svargam and papams in the naragam then returns back to

the Mega mandalam from where he reaches the bhoomi

through the rain water and then he combines with the

annam (grains) which is grown in the soil and then

from the Annam he reaches the purusha sareeram, from

the purusha sareeram (man) he reaches the Stree

Sareeram(women) and then he undergoes Karbha vaasam.

The child develops in the womb of the mother which is

supposed to be the Jail sentence for the Jeevan. It

has to be inside the womb for 10 months and undergo a

lot of suffering. Even after undergoing so much

suffering inside the womb only a very few are born as

jnani’s rest start enjoying life and get involved in

worldly pleasures. The child starts crying for milk,

then for food and toys, then for so many other things

and then the crying continues till his end. When a

child is born his mother feeds it with milk and at the

last people put rice in the mouth of the dead so the

improvement in a man’s life is only from milk to rice.

For this In between he undergoes such a lot of

sufferings. Still people do not realize the truth

they do no get vairakhyam, they don’t realize that

everything in this world is temperory and emperuman is

only permanent. This is the sad state of a samsari.

But does Emperuman enjoy seeing us suffer? No not at

all. He is so much pained by seeing our hardships

that he keeps on doing many things to release us from

this samsaram. What does Bhagavan do? He first does

the creation to wake up the jeevatmas who where

sleeping in the pralayam. It is like a mother waking

up a child to feed if the child sleeps without eating.

The child doesn’t know about its hunger but the

mother knows. Similarly emperuman wakes us all up

after pralayam. After creating, emperuman gives the

jeevatmas two options to choose. The jeevans can

either enjoy the pleasures of the leela vibhuthi as

per their wish or they can shed the miseries of the

leela vibhuthi and fall under the feet of the

emperuman to grant them the divine moksha where there

is only ‘aanandam aanandam”, from where the jeevan

never returns to the miseries of this world(‘Na cha

Punaraavarthathe’). If we choose the

sittrinbum(worldly pleasures) he grants us them with

stained mind and if we prefer the perinbam (moksha)

then he grants us that with lot of joy. The shrusti,

stiti and samharam what ever the emperuman does is

only for the welfare of the jeevatmas.

After the creation he then gave us the sastras to show

us the right path. “Tene Brahmahrudhaya Adikavaye”

says Bhagavatham and Nammazhvar says “peedhagavaadai

peraanaar parama guru vaagi vandu” that emperuman

delivered the sastras to the world as the first guru.

A man should have two types of knowledge. He should

be capable of differentiating between Dharma and

Adharma and Nityam and Anityam(nature of objects). If

a man is not able to differentiate which object will

stay permanently and which will not and which is

dharma and which is adharma then he can be equated to

an animal. Only this knowledge differentiates a man

and an animal. So a man has to act according to the

sastras. “Tasmat Sastram Pramanam te karya karyau

Vyavastitow” (only the sastras are the pramanas to

tell the do’s and don’t’s). Still the jeevatmas

refused to accept the sastras and act accordingly.

Then what did bhagavan do did he get angry with them?

Let’s see in the next posting.

Adiyen Ramanuja dasyai

Sumithra Varadarajan.

LAUNCH - Your Music Experience

http://launch.

May 16, 2002

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

Dear Members,

Please read through this avathArikai of Sri PVP very nicely essayed by Smt

Sumitra. Thanks a lot Smt Sumitra for this.

Please read every line with open mind and it will clearly tell you how

emberumAn's krupa is nirhEtuka and not sahEtuka.

---Quote------

Whenever we call them to

bhagavat vishayam they have some way to say no. They

consider many more things important and highly urgent

to be done when it comes to bhagavat vishayam.

---Unquote---

This is exactly what, Sri nammAzhwAr says in his Thiruviruttham. He calls

this attitude of the samsaaris as "yAdhAnum paRRi neengum viradham". See

how sarcastically he calls this attitude as "viradham" of the samsaaris to

get away from reaching emberumAn. So these samsaaris are the gone case. But

if they come back to emberumAn, what did they do to earn His grace. Think

of it ! Nothing. It is only emberumAn's wish that they come back to the

fold of emberumAnadiyAr. This is what Sri nammAzhwAr develops as " yAdhAnum

paRRi neegum viradhatthai 'nal veeDu seiyyum mAdhAvinaip pidhuvai'

thirumAlai vaNanguvanE ". As you all know, when the child goes astray, it

is the duty of its parents to bring it back to the right path. Does the

child beg to them to bring to the right path? No. That is why Sri

nammAzhwAr calls emberumAn as both mother and father who corrects that

wrong viradham of the jeevAthmA and bring him to His fold. Please note

here, the AzhwAr says that he prays to emberumAn. But if the lines are

followed clearly, he is only praying to emberumAn after He brought AzhwAr

back to the fold. Once in the fold, the true swaroopam of the AzhwAr, which

is nothing but "sEshitvam" gets prominence and hence he prays. This prayer

of course, has nothing to do with earning the grace of emberumAn, as it is

being made after receiving His grace. So again it is proved clearly that,

no act on the part of the jeevAthmA earns His grace, but only His nirhEtuka

krupA.

However, Smt Sumitra you have written :

-----Quote -------

After creating, emperuman gives the

jeevatmas two options to choose. The jeevans can

either enjoy the pleasures of the leela vibhuthi as

per their wish or they can shed the miseries of the

leela vibhuthi and fall under the feet of the

emperuman to grant them the divine moksha where there

is only 'aanandam aanandam", from where the jeevan

never returns to the miseries of this world('Na cha

Punaraavarthathe').

----Unquote----

Can you please clarify this. Is there an independence attributed on the

part of the jeevAthmAs, who are originally slaves in nature. I don't think

our AzhwArs have, in any place, spoken about this jeevaswAthanthryam. What

I understood from these lines of yours is that the jeevAthmA is given a

choice to select. This means that there is some swAthanthriyam on the part

of jeevAthmA. How is that possible? Remember, Sri nammAzhwAr says, "en

uNarvinuLLE irutthinEn". This looks like AzhwAr did something to bring Him

in his thoughts. But immediately he says, "adhuvum avanadhinnaruLE". So

every action of jeevAthmA is only because of emberumAn's sankalpam. So how

is it that the jeevAthmA gets a choice and hence freedom?. Please clarify

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

sumithra

varadarajan oppiliappan,

<sumivaradan@y ramanuja

ahoo.com> cc:

[ramanuja] Thirumaalai-2

15-05-02 09:32

PM

Please respond

to ramanuja

Sri Parthasarathi thunai,

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha

" Mattrondrum Venda Maname Madhilarangar

Kattrinum meitha kazhalinai keezh- uttra

Thirumaalai paadum seer Thondaradipodi Emperumaanai

Eppozhudum peesu"

"Srimat Krishna samahvaya Namo yaamuna soonave

yetkadakshai kalakshyanam sulabha: Sridara: sadaa"

Pranams,

"Manisarukkai Padadana Pattu" - Emperuman undergoes

number of hardships for the sake of we Jeevatmas. Let

us now see what all hardships the emperuman undergoes.

In the last posting we said that PVP starts the

avadharikai with a question. Who a samsari is? Sri

Periya vaachan pillai asks such a question because he

doesn't belong to that category and wants to keep

himself away from them. But all of us know who a

samsari is. "Asaare Samsare Vishaya visha

sangaakudiya:". The samsaris are always at the back

of some vishayam(matter). Whenever we call them to

bhagavat vishayam they have some way to say no. They

consider many more things important and highly urgent

to be done when it comes to bhagavat vishayam. But

saddhus like PVP considered the samsaaric pleasures to

be equal to a poison which kills us little by little.

Samsaaric pleasures are like a disease and only

medicine to this disease is Emperuman and bhagavat

vishayam. But leaving this medicine the samsaris

prefer to drink the poison. But can the Emperuman who

is the father of all simply see his children drink

poison? So he by his apaara Kaarunyam tries to pull

us out of this.

But if he says don't go at the back of samsaaric

pleasures instead fall under my feet I will protect

you then there is not even a single person to listen

to him. When a child eats mud though we condemn its

act it tends to eat but now without our knowledge. So

the mother now lets it to eat and also keeps the

medicine necessary handy. When the child suffers she

gives the medicine and teaches the child a lesson.

Similarly we jeevatmas will never listen to advices so

the emperuman lets us in our own way and then teaches

us a lesson. But unfortunately even after a lot of

miseries the vaasana of the jeevatmas still pulls him

only towards the worldly pleasures and never turns his

attention towards the bhagavan.

So as Nammazhvar says "Maari Maari pala pirappum

pirandhu" and Sri Adisankarar says " Punarappi Maranam

Punarappi Jananam" the cycle of life and death

continues. The jeevatma does papam or punyam in this

world and undergoes the svarga vaasam or Naraga vaasam

and then comes back to the world with the vaasanas of

the previous birth. In Vedanta such a jeevatma is

called Anusayi. Vedantha also says "Gatha Gatham Kaama

kaama labhanthe" . Thus the jeevatmas do punyam or

papam in this world, both of which will ultimately

bring them back to this world only. You may all

wonder why PVP is telling all these things in the

avatharikai to this Prabhandam! It is to increase our

Vairakhyam. Only when we get little detached from

this world we can think about the other

world(Bhagavan and Bhagavat vishayam). Even when we

have to sit in a upanyasam for 2 hours we have to

leave other activities in this world, right? That

again needs some vairakhyam. Only to build this

vairakhyam Sri PVP starts his vyakhyanam with such an

avadharikai. As our acharyas say when we see the world

we cannot see bhagavan and when we see bhagavan the

world never enters our vision.

The jeevan which has nullified its punyams in the

Svargam and papams in the naragam then returns back to

the Mega mandalam from where he reaches the bhoomi

through the rain water and then he combines with the

annam (grains) which is grown in the soil and then

from the Annam he reaches the purusha sareeram, from

the purusha sareeram (man) he reaches the Stree

Sareeram(women) and then he undergoes Karbha vaasam.

The child develops in the womb of the mother which is

supposed to be the Jail sentence for the Jeevan. It

has to be inside the womb for 10 months and undergo a

lot of suffering. Even after undergoing so much

suffering inside the womb only a very few are born as

jnani's rest start enjoying life and get involved in

worldly pleasures. The child starts crying for milk,

then for food and toys, then for so many other things

and then the crying continues till his end. When a

child is born his mother feeds it with milk and at the

last people put rice in the mouth of the dead so the

improvement in a man's life is only from milk to rice.

For this In between he undergoes such a lot of

sufferings. Still people do not realize the truth

they do no get vairakhyam, they don't realize that

everything in this world is temperory and emperuman is

only permanent. This is the sad state of a samsari.

But does Emperuman enjoy seeing us suffer? No not at

all. He is so much pained by seeing our hardships

that he keeps on doing many things to release us from

this samsaram. What does Bhagavan do? He first does

the creation to wake up the jeevatmas who where

sleeping in the pralayam. It is like a mother waking

up a child to feed if the child sleeps without eating.

The child doesn't know about its hunger but the

mother knows. Similarly emperuman wakes us all up

after pralayam. After creating, emperuman gives the

jeevatmas two options to choose. The jeevans can

either enjoy the pleasures of the leela vibhuthi as

per their wish or they can shed the miseries of the

leela vibhuthi and fall under the feet of the

emperuman to grant them the divine moksha where there

is only 'aanandam aanandam", from where the jeevan

never returns to the miseries of this world('Na cha

Punaraavarthathe'). If we choose the

sittrinbum(worldly pleasures) he grants us them with

stained mind and if we prefer the perinbam (moksha)

then he grants us that with lot of joy. The shrusti,

stiti and samharam what ever the emperuman does is

only for the welfare of the jeevatmas.

After the creation he then gave us the sastras to show

us the right path. "Tene Brahmahrudhaya Adikavaye"

says Bhagavatham and Nammazhvar says "peedhagavaadai

peraanaar parama guru vaagi vandu" that emperuman

delivered the sastras to the world as the first guru.

A man should have two types of knowledge. He should

be capable of differentiating between Dharma and

Adharma and Nityam and Anityam(nature of objects). If

a man is not able to differentiate which object will

stay permanently and which will not and which is

dharma and which is adharma then he can be equated to

an animal. Only this knowledge differentiates a man

and an animal. So a man has to act according to the

sastras. "Tasmat Sastram Pramanam te karya karyau

Vyavastitow" (only the sastras are the pramanas to

tell the do's and don't's). Still the jeevatmas

refused to accept the sastras and act accordingly.

Then what did bhagavan do did he get angry with them?

Let's see in the next posting.

Adiyen Ramanuja dasyai

Sumithra Varadarajan.

LAUNCH - Your Music Experience

http://launch.

azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

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May 16, 2002

Sri Parthasarathi thunai

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha

Dear Sri Venkatesh,

> Can you please clarify this. Is there an

> independence attributed on the

> part of the jeevAthmAs, who are originally slaves in

> nature. I don't think

> our AzhwArs have, in any place, spoken about this

> jeevaswAthanthryam. What

> I understood from these lines of yours is that the

> jeevAthmA is given a

> choice to select. This means that there is some

> swAthanthriyam on the part

> of jeevAthmA. How is that possible? Remember, Sri

> nammAzhwAr says, "en

> uNarvinuLLE irutthinEn". This looks like AzhwAr did

> something to bring Him

> in his thoughts. But immediately he says, "adhuvum

> avanadhinnaruLE". So

> every action of jeevAthmA is only because of

> emberumAn's sankalpam. So how

> is it that the jeevAthmA gets a choice and hence

> freedom?. Please clarify

Let me explain this to the best of my knowledge. If

there are errors the learned members may please

correct me.

Emperuman has two vibhutis the leela vibhuti and the

Nitya Vibhuthi. Both belongs to emperuman and he has

kept the leela vibhuti for his leelas. So now he

created the jeevatmas to play their roles in the leela

vibhuthi. He very well knows there are miseries in

this world. So if he has to decide then the problem of

the parent putting the child to difficulty will arise.

Then the divine quality of the emperuman will be

questioned. Let us explain it in this manner.

A father gets for his kid 2 toys one an attractive

game and other a knowledge kit. If the father says you

should not play with the game but improve your

knowledge with the other kit then the child will never

listen. And when the father keeps in front of the

child to choose anyone of it, it will naturally choose

only the game. But does the child know the advantages

and disadvantages of both? Absolutely no, it is

totally ignorant. But just by attraction it selects

the attractive game(the child may not even know to

play the game). So now the father leaves it in its own

way as it is a kid and preserves the knowledge kit for

future. So when the child becomes a little big it

realises the importance of knowledge.

That is what even Emperuman does. Initially we are all

kids without any knowledge. So we donot realise the

importance of bhagavan or bhagavat kainkaryam. So he

allows us to play in this world. Slowly as the father

imparts knowledge to his child he teaches us the

miseries of the world and pulls us towards him. Though

a father is educated he sends his child to a school

and a different teacher. Similarly emperuman teaches

us through the acharyas and satsangams. When our

acharyas show us the right path we trive for

liberation and hence reach the lotus feet of

emperuman.

Nammazhvar was a born gyani. He was sent to this world

by emperuman to change us. So he was not like the

other jeevatmas. So he realised that everything is

done only by the paramatma without any difficulty but

that was not the case even with Arjuna who was so

closed to Sri Krishna. He thought that he fought the

war. In the above example both the game and the kit

was got only by the father and the father is the

person who he going to teach the child how to play the

game and how to use the kit. But still he gives the

child the time to get tuned to use the kit. Similarly

though emperuman does everything he just gives us the

time to become matured. Again he can grant us the

knowledge in a second but then the leela vibhuti will

not be interesting and it will be same as the Nitya

Vibhuthi.

Hope my clarification is convincing

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasyai

Sumithra Varadarajan

>

> sumithra

>

> varadarajan To:

> oppiliappan,

> <sumivaradan@y

> ramanuja

> ahoo.com> cc:

>

> Subject:

> [ramanuja] Thirumaalai-2

> 15-05-02 09:32

>

> PM

>

> Please respond

>

> to ramanuja

>

Sri Parthasarathi thunai,

> Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha

>

> " Mattrondrum Venda Maname Madhilarangar

> Kattrinum meitha kazhalinai keezh- uttra

> Thirumaalai paadum seer Thondaradipodi

> Emperumaanai

> Eppozhudum peesu"

>

> "Srimat Krishna samahvaya Namo yaamuna soonave

> yetkadakshai kalakshyanam sulabha: Sridara: sadaa"

>

> Pranams,

>

> "Manisarukkai Padadana Pattu" - Emperuman undergoes

> number of hardships for the sake of we Jeevatmas.

> Let

> us now see what all hardships the emperuman

> undergoes.

> In the last posting we said that PVP starts the

> avadharikai with a question. Who a samsari is? Sri

> Periya vaachan pillai asks such a question because

> he

> doesn't belong to that category and wants to keep

> himself away from them. But all of us know who a

> samsari is. "Asaare Samsare Vishaya visha

> sangaakudiya:". The samsaris are always at the back

> of some vishayam(matter). Whenever we call them to

> bhagavat vishayam they have some way to say no.

> They

> consider many more things important and highly

> urgent

> to be done when it comes to bhagavat vishayam. But

> saddhus like PVP considered the samsaaric pleasures

> to

> be equal to a poison which kills us little by

> little.

> Samsaaric pleasures are like a disease and only

> medicine to this disease is Emperuman and bhagavat

> vishayam. But leaving this medicine the samsaris

> prefer to drink the poison. But can the Emperuman

> who

> is the father of all simply see his children drink

> poison? So he by his apaara Kaarunyam tries to pull

> us out of this.

>

> But if he says don't go at the back of samsaaric

> pleasures instead fall under my feet I will protect

> you then there is not even a single person to listen

> to him. When a child eats mud though we condemn its

> act it tends to eat but now without our knowledge.

> So

> the mother now lets it to eat and also keeps the

> medicine necessary handy. When the child suffers

> she

> gives the medicine and teaches the child a lesson.

> Similarly we jeevatmas will never listen to advices

> so

> the emperuman lets us in our own way and then

> teaches

> us a lesson. But unfortunately even after a lot of

> miseries the vaasana of the jeevatmas still pulls

> him

> only towards the worldly pleasures and never turns

> his

> attention towards the bhagavan.

> So as Nammazhvar says "Maari Maari pala pirappum

>

=== message truncated ===

LAUNCH - Your Music Experience

http://launch.

May 16, 2002

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

Dear Smt Sumitra,

The worldly analogies cannot always be used to describe emberumAn's

activities. He is "otthAr mikkArai ilayAya mAmAyan" and "eedum

eduppum ilAdha eesan". There is a limit to which the worldly

analogies and logic can be used to describe emberumAn's activities.

The analogy provided by you is convincing though, to prove that there

is a freedom to the jeevAthma. But, what I wanted to know was, is

there any pAsuram by our AzhwArs', where this jeeva swAthanthryam is

spoken of. Not to my knowledge. Well, I know only 2000 pAsuram. What

I understood was that, this swAthanthryam is accepted only by the

vadakalais, in order to get rid emberumAn of the "sarva mukthi

prasanga" dOsham. If at all this is acceptable to us, surely this

might have been emphasized by any AzhwAr or AchArya. Can learned

members please throw light on this.

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

May 16, 2002

Sri Parthasarathi thunai

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha

Dear Sri Venkatesh,

> The worldly analogies cannot always be used to describe emberumAn's

> activities. He is "otthAr mikkArai ilayAya mAmAyan" and "eedum

> eduppum ilAdha eesan". There is a limit to which the worldly

> analogies and logic can be used to describe emberumAn's activities.

I do accept that Emperuman's leelas cannot be fully explained with

the analogies of the world but our acharyas used the worldy analogies

to make even the lay man understand the high arthas of the sastras.

So the worldly analogies do provide us a lot of insight into the

Bhagavat visayam and to tell you more all is created by bhagavan and

everything has a link.

> The analogy provided by you is convincing though, to prove that

there

> is a freedom to the jeevAthma. But, what I wanted to know was, is

> there any pAsuram by our AzhwArs', where this jeeva swAthanthryam

is

> spoken of. Not to my knowledge. Well, I know only 2000 pAsuram.

What

> I understood was that, this swAthanthryam is accepted only by the

> vadakalais, in order to get rid emberumAn of the "sarva mukthi

> prasanga" dOsham. If at all this is acceptable to us, surely this

> might have been emphasized by any AzhwAr or AchArya. Can learned

> members please throw light on this.

Again my point never proved that the jeevatma had free will. The

bhagavan can always restrict us. What if bhagavan showed us only the

Nitya vibhuti we will have no other option to choose. If in the

example the father got the child only the knowledge kit the child is

left with no other option but since the father wanted to entertain

the child and build his maturity he got the game. Similarly bhagavan

who wanted to develop the maturity of the jeevatmas and also wanted

to keep up his leelas in this world showed the jeevatma both his

vibhuti's knowing well that the jeevatmas will get attracted only to

the leela vibhuti(vaasana bhalam) . Again Bhagavan has a hand behind

it. He is only playing with us and we are not capable of doing

anything with svathantriyam. Actually there is only a airline

difference in these understandings of the vadagalais and tengalais.

When we look in a neutral view adiyen feels we can understand better.

Again adiyen is not capable of providing you the appropriate

paasurams. Hope some learned scholars can do the same.

Adiyen Ramanuja dasyai

Sumithra Varadarajan

> AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

> adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

> Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

May 16, 2002

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha.

Appan Thiruvdigale Saranam

"Posting of Sri Vinjamoor Venkatesh dated 16th May,

2002."

Dear Baghavathas, Accept my pranam.

The information required in this posting is " Is there any

pasuram by Azhvar where the Jeeva swathantharyam is spoken of"

Adiyen is furnishing informations as understood by me to the

best of my knowledge. If it is erroneous Adiyen may be

corrected.

Sutras 381 onwards of "SREEVACHANA BHOOSHNAM' will be of

help. PRDHAMAPRAVARTHI SWATHANTHARYAM to jeevan is to be inferred

; otherwise, Emperuman will have to be blamed for all the

acts(asat acts) of the Jeeva. Also, Emperuman is granting

'moksham' to those only who are mature enough and would want

nothing short of Emperuman Emperuman ONLY.They cannot remain a

single second away from him. Emperuman is desireous of salvaging

these jeevans to whom he has given body and 'karanas for acting'

to worship HIM like Nityasuris.Unfortunately the jeevans are

attracted by earthly pleasures and has fallen in 'Asatkarmas'.

Emperuman remain silent at this time of first action. Thereafter,

they have to undergo the results of their action . From here only,

Emperuman is waiting for an oppurtunity to bestow some benifits to

the jeeva. At the same time he should not be blamed as partial to

some body. So, on some pretexts, the jeevan would have expressed

his name without intention; like that some of the actions., say

sheltering Adiyars under his roof without intention etc., Such

trifile acts will be counted as 'sukrutham' and the jeevan will be

bestowed by the Lord's grace. If the jeevan does not protest to

this sort help, the Grace of Emperuman continues and the Atmayatra

of the Jeevan has started.Slowly he gets promotion till 'moksha is

attained.

----Azhvar Pasurangals:

"INRU ENNAI P PORULAKKI THANNAI ENNUL VAITHAN '( Thiruvaimozhi.

10-8-9)

'ENNANRISEITHONO ENNENCHIL THIKAZHVATHUVE' (

THIRUVAIMOZHI 10-6-8)

'NADUVE VANTHU UYYAKOLKINRA NATHAN' (Thiruvaimozhi1-7-5)

'ARIYATHANARIVITTHA ATTHA NEE SEITHANA ADIYENARIYENE'

(Thiruvaimozhi 2-3-2)

'PORULALLATHA ENNAI PORULAKKI ADIMAIKONDAI' (Thiruvaimozhi.

5-3-3)

'ENNAI THEEMANAM KEDUTHTHAI' (Thiruvaimozhi 2-7-8)

'MARUVITHOZHUME MANAME THANTHAI' (Thiruvaimozhi-2-7-7)

From these Pasurams, it can be inferred that jeevan has fallen

under bad days or (ways) and Emperuman has helped him immensely

without asking ( the cumulative effect of trifle acts done without

intention) ie., NIRHETHUKA KRUPAI.

'VERITHE ARUL SEIVAR SEIVARKATKKU' (Thiruvaimozhi 8-7-8)

Emperuman will bestow his grace for whom he wants decide to

give; for He has created a desire in the mind of the jeevan to

turn towards Him; the jeevan has also responded favourably.

'ETHIRSOOZHAL PUKKU ENAITHORU PIRAPPUM ENAKKE ARULKAL SEYYA

VIDHI SOOZHNTHAL ENEKELAMMAN THIRUVIKRAMANAIYE' (Thirvaimozhi

2.7.6) Emperuman THIRUVIKRAMN has determined to bestow his grace

in every janma to me.. Such is my fate ' Azhvar express his joy

gratitude and wonder for this NIRHETHUKA KRUPAI'

'VIDHIVAYKKU INRU KAPPAR YAR ?' (Thiruvaimozhi5-1-1) Here

the Sutra 403 of Srivachanabooshanam is given...'KRUBAI

PERUKAPUKKAL IRUVAR SWATHANTHARYATHHALUM TKHAYA ONNATHAPADI

IRUKARAI YAZHIYA PERUGUM'. I hope the above explain the JEEVAN'S

PRADHAMAPRVARTHI SWATHANTHARYM AND EMPERUMAN'S NIRHETHUKA KRUPAI.

Yours Adiyan Parthasarathy Dasan.

On Thu, 16 May 2002 vinjamoor_venkatesh wrote :

>srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

>srImadh varavara munayE namaha

>

>Dear Smt Sumitra,

>

>The worldly analogies cannot always be used to describe

>emberumAn's

>activities. He is "otthAr mikkArai ilayAya mAmAyan" and "eedum

>eduppum ilAdha eesan". There is a limit to which the worldly

>analogies and logic can be used to describe emberumAn's

>activities.

>

>The analogy provided by you is convincing though, to prove that

>there

>is a freedom to the jeevAthma. But, what I wanted to know was,

>is

>there any pAsuram by our AzhwArs', where this jeeva swAthanthryam

>is

>spoken of. Not to my knowledge. Well, I know only 2000 pAsuram.

>What

>I understood was that, this swAthanthryam is accepted only by

>the

>vadakalais, in order to get rid emberumAn of the "sarva mukthi

>prasanga" dOsham. If at all this is acceptable to us, surely

>this

>might have been emphasized by any AzhwAr or AchArya. Can

>learned

>members please throw light on this.

>

>AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

>adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

>Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

>

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>

>azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam

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May 17, 2002

Dear BhAgavatas,

One of the key things that adiyEn has noticed in this

issue is a tendency to stop at the level where a

chEtanan performs Sarangati and discuss it there.

I think we need to look at what happens beyond that.

Once a chEtanan reaches the Lord's abode our

pUrvacharyas have indicated that he/she is still not

guaranteed a place in the nithya vibhUti. It is said

that He might still reject the chEtanan and send

him back. This is attributed to His svAtantraya

kalyANa guNa. This guNa not only means that He is

not held answerable to anyone for His actions; it

also means that His actions are not tied to the

actions of anyone else. Hence, to say that

performance of Saranagati guarantees mOksha would

be incorrect.

It is here that our pirAtti's role becomes

important. The Sri sabdham itself indicates that She

is ever present with Him just so She does not miss

an opportunity to intercede on behalf of a jIvan.

She would intercede asking Him not to look at the

jIvan's errors - Sri Pillai Lokacharyar says

"maNal sORRil kal ArAyvAraip pOlE". He further goes

to say that in the dvayam mantram the nArAyaNa

sabdham represents the kalyANa guNas that arise

after pirAtti intercedes - "svAtantryam thalai

sAynthAl thalai edukkum guNankaLai sollukiRathu

nArAyaNa padam".

Svami Nammazhvar did Sarangati to Thiruvenkadamudaiyan

through the agalakillEn pAsuram. This pasuram is the

complete synthesis of the Saranagati thathvam held

in the Dvayam. What follows in the next pasuram is

critical. The first line of the following pasuram

begins as "adikkIzh amarnthu pukunthu vAzhumin adiyiR!

enRu aruL kodukkum". The steps are clear here.

adi - His lotus feet are the upAyam and upEyam.

amarnthu - The act of complete surrender.

pukunthu - Reaching His thiruvadi.

vAzhumin - Obtaining the kainkarya phalan in

nithya vibhUti.

adiyIr - All bhAgavatas.

aruL - His grace is the cause for all of the above.

kodukkum - All of the above made possible only by

His action.

By using adiyIr and kodukkum, Azvar has made this

clear: irrespective of who they are (Azhvar, Acharya,

Sishya, Bhakta) it is His action that gives the

phalan of kainkaryam. Nothing else does.

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

TCA Venkatesan

http://www.acharya.org

LAUNCH - Your Music Experience

http://launch.

May 17, 2002

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

Dear Smt Sumitra,

I am convinced somewhat, but for my better understanding, I have a

question?

Do you agree that eventhough He places a choice before the jeevAthmA, He

influences the decision of the jeevAthmA?

If your answer is yes to the above, then I have understood your posting

clearly and also, the point that the jeevAthmA does not have any

swAthanthryam is proved.

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

"sumivaradan"

<sumivaradan@y ramanuja

ahoo.com> cc:

[ramanuja] Re:

Thirumaalai-2

17-05-02 05:03

AM