Guest guest Posted April 18, 2001 Report Share Posted April 18, 2001 Dear Blueraybird,<br><br>The Srimad Bhagavatam lists nine processes of devotional service by which the soul is freed from anarthas (impediments to devotion). The first two are Sravanam and Kirtanam - hearing and chanting about the Lord and his pastimes. The third process mentioned is Smaranam or remembrance. This is meditation on the Lord and his pastimes.<br><br>My real point is that if we really want to be effective at being a warrior on the front lines in Armegeddon, we will have to purify ourselves first. How will a prisoner be able to free his or her fellow prisoners?<br><br>Too many take up the banner of spiritual warrior when they themselves are not shining examples. Hypocricy is easy to spot and is one of the reasons why so many walk away from 'religion' - because they see that many of those who are 'shouting from the roof tops' are often times not even decent human beings, let alone spiritually emancipated.<br><br>I am not accusing you or saying that you fit this description, but what is needed are Acharya's - those whose actions are in complete accordance with their speech. They have taken the medicine themselves and have transcended the pushings of the mind and senses. Guadiya Vaishnava sanyasis are sometimes referred to as Maharaja which means great king. One learned scholar took exception to this saying, 'I refuse to address a renunciate as a king.' The answer to this critcism is that the real rulers of the world are unbridled minds and senses. One who has gained control over his/her mind and senses is a true king in the sense that they have gained control over that which controls the entire world. The Isopanisad states that one who can control the pushings of the tongue, genitals and belly as well as anger, lust and greed is qualified to make disciples all over the world.<br><br>So, I personally wouldn't say that this forum accomplishes little. If even one person is inspired to improve their inner life, it is immeasurably successful. As the saying goes - if you want to save the world, first you have to save yourself.<br><br>The yuga Avatara - Sri Krsna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has given the process of spiritual emancipation for this age - chanting of the holy names of God. It is said:<br>Hari nama Hari nama Hari nama eva kevalam<br>Kalaua nasteva nasteva nasteva gatir anya ta<br>(please excuse any misspelling)<br>In this age of kali chant the holy names of Hari, chant the holy names of Hari, chant the holy names of Hari. For spiritual emancipation there is no other way, no other way, no other way.<br><br>So, if you have Krsna in your heart and on your lips - then you can give him to others and it will be effective - otherwise not.<br><br>your servant<br>Audarya lila dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2001 Report Share Posted April 18, 2001 So Bluebird dear, do you really believe that discourse in the market place accomplishes little? You could never be more wrong. It is discourse that brings nations together to discuss their 'perception' of what is wrong which we may not see. You see, each of us has our 'world view' and each of us truly believes that view is the only correct one. Without dialogue the only recourse left is to fight to the death with the victor's view as the winning view. That is how it use to be many years ago. This view is based upon the idea that God fights along side the truth sayer alone. Frankly, i believe that God does not get involved in our petty squabbles and leaves the law of karma to alone judge. This is my view as a retired soldier.<br><br>Siva and Kali do not incite us to fight but instead to love. "I AM a warrior on the front lines in Armageddon. Who dares to take up his sword and join me?" A warrior is not keen to fight unless absolutely necessary. When we do fight we fight with disciplined minds though our bodies are active; our minds are trained to be still and aware of all around us. This training takes YEARS to get us to a point were we do not kill ourselves with our own impulsiveness. <br><br>i was just remembering coming home one year from Germany with my son. We flew by United and as i belted him in the flight attendant was demonstrating what to do if there was a loss of cabin pressure. You must first put the mask on YOURSELF and only then do you assist placing the mask on small children. In order to help those around you you must first help yourself. If we try to mask a squirming child before we place the mask on us we may both perish from lack of oxygen. If there was no dialogue from the attendant i would have masked him first. Do you see how this analogy is also true in spiritual warfare? Can you say that you fully understand the instructions and that your spiritual mask is on correctly so that you may really help others? That is the object of this forum.<br><br>from sarge's point of view...<br><br>om tat sat<br>>:*) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2001 Report Share Posted April 18, 2001 Dear maataa blueraybird,<br><br>you must have read the responses by now and i am sure you must be smiling quite wide.<br><br>Quite direct is your approach..<br><Meditation is simply meditation. Talk is simply talk.><br><br>Nothing can be truer.<br>I can only advise your 'advisors' that if they trust god so much, why forget that he is totally inscrutable in his ways . What sort of music he plays from what instrument can only be a revelation to us and it is our ego that sits on the judge's chair and tells somebody to 'purify oneself first'. It is we who are always deciding what is right and not right, not God. He has time and again displayed unconventional(ie.wrong) means of salvation in his limitless compassion but still people insist on their 'rightness'. Why this violence by preachers of non-violence ?<br><br>I see the beginning of a spark in you which has the potential of becoming the 'davanala' (great fire), the destroyer of great evils.<br>Strange that, though the spark is in its infancy, dousing attempts have already begun.<br><br>Listen all,<br>there is no greater sin than to divert anybody from his/her inspiration which as always is god-given.<br><br><br>I am all ears and loving every minute of it, please do continue with your veera-rasa (fighter-class) posts.<br><br>shankar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 <<Either you know how to meditate or you don't; either you practice it or you don't. I have tried and I don't. There is a barrier that I don't seem to be able to cross....it's called an active mind willing a body to be active and not sit still in idle thought. Yes...I know the benefits of meditation. When the time is right, I shall practice it.>><br><br>Dive deep into your own words. They contain one very important message - everything happens at the right time. Meditation is a great thing, but it has to happen by itself. You cannot decide and meditate, just as you cannot decide and be innocent, decide and go to sleep, decide and believe in God. These things happen automatically, at their predestined time. <br><br>You cannot try and bring about meditation. But if the attempts happen, you cannot stop them either. Everything happens automatically, according to God's will.<br><br>Regards,<br>Rajeev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 dear rajeev your answer has the same hidden question. Do we have free will ?<br><br> Is it God who decides that we should start meditation now....then is it useless to discuss and read books and go to guru ?<br><br> Are My old Karma more powerful than Krishna ? <br><br>who is deciding my fate, My Old Karma, my will power or Krishna (or God by any name)??<br><br> Is there a concerete reply ?<br><br>Hari Om Tat Sat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 <<dear rajeev your answer has the same hidden question. Do we have free will ?>><br><br>Yes, that is right. If this question is answered, everything will fall in place automatically.<br><br><<Is it God who decides that we should start meditation now....then is it useless to discuss and read books and go to guru ?>><br><br>Yes, it *is* useless to read books and go to a guru, if it is not God's will that enlightenment should happen in a particular body-mind mechanism. Krishna testifies to this when he says that among a thousand persons there is one who seeks Me, and among many such seekers, there is rarely a one who knows Me in principle.<br><br>Sometimes, by God's will, enlightenment happens without a Guru (in the form of a person) too. Such was the case with Ramana Maharshi, and also in case of Mata Amritanandamayi.<br><br>However, so helpless is a seeker that he can't help reading books, going to a supposed Guru, etc. It happens like that because God wants it to happen that way.<br><br><<Are My old Karma more powerful than Krishna ?>><br><br>Whose karma? Who is this 'me'? By investigation, sages have realised that the 'me' is imaginary. Events happen; deeds are done; there is no doer thereof. So said the Buddha.<br><br>The Geeta too emphasises this point through verses such as 'naaham karteti manyate (The sage doesn't think he is the doer of the actions that happen through his body-mind mechanism)', 'naadatte kasyachit paapam na caiva sukrtam vibhuh (the Lord bestows neither merit nor sin on the jeevas). etc.<br><br>In fact, nothing can be more powerful than Krishna since all the power and glory belongs to Him only. Vasudeva is all there is, but such understanding is rare.<br><br><<who is deciding my fate, My Old Karma, my will power or Krishna (or God by any name)??>><br><br>Nobody is deciding your fate (rather the fate of the body-mind organism in which a fictitious 'you' has appeared by accident.) The fate has already been decided. The law of causation is the basis of the theory of Karma, but it is itself based on the false notion of time and space. Krishna is beyond time and space. ('I am before time ever was' said Jesus.) It is Krishna alone (or, as you say, God by any other name. I prefer the name 'Consciousness') who knows about the fate of every body-mind organism. We cannot hope to know His mind.<br><br>Finally, <<Is there a concerete reply ?>><br><br>Consciousness (Vasudeva) is all there is. All there is, is Vasudeva (Consciousness).<br><br>Hare Krishna.<br><br>Rajeev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 <<(rather the fate of the body-mind organism in which a fictitious 'you' has appeared by accident.) >>><br><br>Nothing in this Universe is by Accident ! Everything is well planned and well thought of.<br><br>Moreover your reply is confusing, Is Krishna different from "I", if no then I have free will because i am krishna.<br><br>If not then why Krishna is so illogical giving riches to one, and poverty to one, health to one and cancer to other, life for one and death for other, marriage for one, rapes for other<br><br>Pls dont hide behind the word "Leela" as i know there is nothing called Leela. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 Beloved Shankar:<br><br>Ah! One who understood my posting!<br><br>To the dear souls who replied to it......yes, I do shout from the rooftops the word "Victory!"<br>(In the Light.)<br><br>When I mentioned discourse in the marketplace...what I was saying is that it is time to take action, rather than sit and ponder<br>the meaning of Life. Life is Love. That Love is being challenged in this decade by the forces of darkness. I can no longer sit idly by and do nothing...thereby adding to my karma this life.<br>I am a Lightbearer and my Knight Commander (An<br>Ascended Master) would frown if I did not try to<br>save souls in the name of God/Allah/I AM/Brahma...<br><br>I do not advocate violence....only fighting the good fight. The world is unaware that we are<br>in Armageddon..now! These are the last days.<br>What I say is merely to stir the fires of the<br>heart...awaken the soul.<br><br>Thank you, saraswati_chandra for seeing where I'm coming from.<br><br>Yes....I am smiling! *<)<br><br>blueray<br><br>P.S. Meditation is very important. I hope to<br>be successful at it soon.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 Audarya lila dasa:<br><br>I don't recall saying that "this forum accomplishes little". I believe it accomplishes much.<br><br>Keep on accomplishing, dear heart.<br><br>blueray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 O gosh,<br>i just realised that i have put my hand in the hornet's nest.<br>By criticising one krishna-bhakta, now i have the whole lot of them "non-violent" beings on my back trying to discredit me.<br>Strangely, one ego in the body was trouble enough but should i invest this login id(saraswati_chandra) and begin to feel hurt ?<br><br>O krishna-bhaktas,<br>krishna sits in me as much as you,<br>and he has fought many battles in his life<br>killed many<br>even advised bheema how to kill jarasandha<br>by splitting him into two by pulling out both the legs,<br>is that gory enough?<br>Do you know your innermost well enough?<br>That you try to typecast him in a mould<br>of your own making.<br>If you knew of his 'other' exploits<br>i wonder how you hoity-toities would react?<br>May be that is why,<br>krishna's starightforward and deep love<br>with the gopis has been decorated and coloured<br>by so many 'explanations'<br>why?<br>just because we feel uncomfortable with some things, god may have done?<br><br>He smiles and we the naked lovers smile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 Dear Blueraybird,<br><br>Sorry if I misinterpreted your words:<br><br>"Discourse in the market place<br>accomplishes little."<br><br>and <br><br>"Talk is simply talk"<br><br>Who has life can give life, that is the principle of divine transmission. Talk that flows from the heart of realization inspires all of us. My own experience in this world is that those individuals who are deeply involved in their internal life have had a profound impact on me when I meet them because they speak to my heart from their heart. Those who have not developed internally as much and are speaking more from their head, even if they are speaking the same words, have not had the same impact on me in terms of inspiring me.<br><br>I see this club as a place to share our own internal growth, encourage others and be encouraged by others.<br><br>Your servant,<br>Audarya lila<br><br>Again, sorry if I misunderstood your post and offended you in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 ""what I was saying is that it is time to take action, rather than sit and ponder the meaning of Life. ..... That Love is being challenged in this decade by the forces of darkness. I can no longer sit idly by and do nothing...thereby adding to my karma this life.<br>I am a Lightbearer and my Knight Commander (An Ascended Master) would frown if I did not try to<br>save souls in the name of God/Allah/I AM/Brahma..""".<br><br>I raised some important questions of all sadhaks in posts no. 758 and 778; Perhaps you missed it bluraybird. Or perhaps I missed your reply. <br><br>Can you share with us the suggestions made by your Master's teachings about how to go about "fighting the good fight"? What would you consider a "good fight"? Who would decide which fight is good and which one is not? Where does love and compassion fit into the picture? Or does it?<br><br>Love and light to you ...<br><br>Tat Twam Asi<br><br>UMA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 Audarya lila:<br><br>You didn't...offend me, that is. Thanks for your posting.<br><br>I try not to speak from the head, but from the heart. Sometimes it's not "me" speaking......<br><br>Peace & Harmony,<br><br>blueray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 Saraswati:<br><br>Indeed......the hornet's nest! <br><br>But, it's taught that one should not be offended by anything another says or does.<br><br>blueraybird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 Uma, my dear.<br><br>Yes, I missed your other posts but will try to read them tomorrow.<br><br>How does one "fight the good fight"? With Love...boundless love. (I also refer to the battle being waged in other realms by angels against the fallen ones.)<br><br>A "good fight" is one in which a soul is saved from darkness; a fallen angel or laggard is bound and taken for judgement;the 'bad guys' don't<br>succeed in a nefarious endeavour....etc.<br><br>The Ascended Masters (Krishna, Shiva, et al) decide what course we should take on behalf of God. The words "good and bad" are really not relevent.<br><br>Love and compassion fit in perfectly. That is what it's all about.....the 'good' fight!<br><br>Hope I've answered to your satisfaction.<br><br>Peace,<br><br>blueraybird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 Blessed Self<br><br>If I could make two related comments on your post:<br><br>First, yoga/vedanta tells us that there are four main paths that will bring one to Self-Realization. Meditation is part of one of those paths-the path of Raja Yoga. It is clear that you are not inclined to the Raja Yoga path.<br><br>Another path is Jnana Yoga, the intellectual path to Self-Realization. This method consists of always asking, "Is this Real? Is this unchanging?" It is called "Neti. Neti." or "Not this. Not this." The aim is to eliminate the layers of unreality, the illusions of maya, to finally arrive at Self-Realization, Brahman. But this path doesn't seem to be the path for you either. <br><br>Then, there is Bhakti Yoga, the way of devotion. Here, one establishes a personal relationship with their Ishta Devata and offers all of their love and attention to God. The Bhakti strives to maintain pure, unselfish love and total devotion toward the Universal Spirit as it is manifested in every person and every situation encountered. The most essential step for a Bhakti is the constant repetition of the name of God. This, too, does not seem to describe you very well.<br><br>Finally, there is Karma Yoga, the path of action and work for those whose mind is busy, not peaceful and who are not inclined to withdraw. This seems to accord with your description of your self. Karma Yoga is characterized by selfless service and detachment and is an effort to overcome the ego by renouncing the emotional ties to one's actions. One seeks to work for the benefit of others without expectation of reward and without attachment to the results of the labour. The Karma Yogi tries to see the Divine everywhere, in every person and situation, and all actions are offered to God. God is served and worshipped in each person with whom the Karma Yogi comes in contact. The Karma Yogi thanks God for the opportunity to serve Him through actions directed toward others.<br><br>It seems clear that you are a Karma Yogi. The second point concerns how you approach your karma yoga. You need to develop viveka, discrimination between the Real and the unreal, between the transcendental Self and the lower self of the senses and ego. You also need to develop vairagya or dispassion, the self-discipline of abandoning passion and renouncing the fruits of your labour. <br><br>Vairagya and abhyasa are the two fundamental traits of a spiritual life. Abhyasa is the practical application of the various sadhana techniques for attaining to Self-Realiztion. You have the desire for practical application. Now all you have to do is channel that energy into Love for the Divine and project that onto whatever actions you take. See God in all. Please don't see others as obstacles. They are not. They are you. They and you are Brahman. The right approach to interacting with them, will reveal your Divinity and their Divinity. By changing your approach a bit, you will be more likely to accomplish what you want to accomplish.<br><br>In referring to work, Mother Teresa, one of the great Karma Yogis of the 20th Century said, "This opens the heart, purifies the mind." Amrit Desai says, "Work is Love made visible."<br><br> By the way, discussion and studying together are swadhyaya, an important part of the Raja Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, and Jnana Yoga paths. Swadhyaya also informs the Karma Yogi, helping him or her toward a wider, more inclusive and more peaceful view of the world and his or her place in it. <br><br>Om and Prem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 <<Nothing in this Universe is by Accident ! Everything is well planned and well thought of.>><br><br>I was aware my using the word 'accident' would invite some objection. You are right, nothing in this universe is by accident. But that is only from the standpoint of the ever-changing universe. From the standpoint of the Absolute, there was never a need of any universe. Take the analogy of the dream. In a dream, everything 'seems' purposeful. But that is only so long as the dream lasts. The dream itself is only accidental - in the sense, it serves no purpose to the dreamer consciousness.<br><br>Moreover, if you really think that everything is well planned and well thought of, then try to answer your questions like <<Why Krishna is so illogical giving riches to one, and poverty to one, health to one and cancer to other, life for one and death for other, marriage for one, rapes for other>> yourself. For me, answer to every 'why' is 'why not?'<br><br><<Moreover your reply is confusing,>><br><br>If my reply is confusing, simply ignore it. It only means you are not supposed to understand the concept of predestination (through me, at least). It means some other concept may appeal to you. Concepts such as necessity of meditation, law of reincarnation and transmigration, law of Karma, ufo - whatever. Whatever is said in words, including my understanding of predestination, is concept only. You use one concept to remove all other concepts, and then throw that concept also - just as you use a thorn to remove other thorn, and then throw both thorns.<br><br><< Is Krishna different from "I", if no then I have free will because i am krishna.>><br><br>Of course I am Krishna. But this I includes Everything. It is the Absolute. For the Absolute the question of free will doesn't arise at all. It is like this: The Sun and the Moon and all the heavenly bodies are moving in there respective orbits. So they can think whether the motion is out of their free will or whether it is predestined. But what about the universe as a whole? It is not going anywhere. <br><br>You see, the entire confusion is because we take the 'I' the Absolute to be the same as 'me' the person. It is a linguistic problem. Fortunately, the English language at least has this distinction between I and me. Think about the confusion in languages where this distinction is not present. Ramana Maharshi advised ' Find out who is this 'me'?' He, of course, spoke in Tamil, and it got translated as 'Ask yourself Who am I'. I is the ultimate subjectivity. We can never find it. It is the I which (or who) finds everything else.<br><br>To me the concept of predestination seems most effective. To you it could be something else. <br><br><<Pls dont hide behind the word "Leela" as i know there is nothing called Leela. >><br><br>Who wants to hide? I am what I am. I am beyond space and therefore I have no place to rest, let alone hide. If you KNOW there is nothing called Leela, it is fine, God bless you. But I suspect it is more likely that you have heard about the concept of Leela and some conflicting concept, and you find the other concept more appealing. You don't KNOW a thing. Don't worry. Trust God. Everything will happen as it is destined to happen.<br><br>Still confused? Forget it. <br><br>Hare krishna.<br><br>Rajeev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 Excellent clarification !<br><br>Putting things in the right perspective, that is what i like(ok, maybe you are not bothered by my likes and dislikes).<br><br>the monkey-mind with so many toys,<br>plays on with reasoning after reasoning,<br>based on its 'knowledge' of a few years,<br>out of the infinite age of the universe.<br><br>the concept of predestination is not 'digestable' to most because it kills their egos and all their hopes alongwith it. How can anybody live without an ounce of hope even ?<br><br>Be honest friend,<br>have you digested the concept you believe in, fully?<br>I gather not, for that would be moksha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 <<Be honest friend,<br>have you digested the concept you believe in, fully?<br>I gather not, for that would be moksha>><br><br>You mean, whether enlightenment has happened in this body-mind mechanism called Rajeev Deshpande? No. There is only intellectual understanding. I happened to meet Shri Ramesh Balsekar, a sage and advaita teacher, in Mumbai, and he explained what he calls his 'concept'.<br><br>But even this intellectual understanding has had a very significant influence. The anxiety of a seeker is almost gone. What the Geeta says is true indeed - 'swalpamapyasya dharmasya traayate mahato bhayaat': Even a little of this understanding frees you from mightiest of fears. <br><br>This is the frank reply. Alternatively, there could be an 'intellectual' answer (coming from the intellectual understanding) to your question as well.<br><br>You are asking a person whether he is liberated. But liberation is never 'of a person'. It is always 'from the person'. The person is 'what-appears-to-be'. The Absolute is 'what-is'. The 'what-appears-to-be' can never be free, since it is only an illusion. The 'what-is' needs no liberation, it was never bound. Liberation nothing but liberation from the concept of liberation, indeed from all concepts.<br><br>Whether enlightenment happens in this body-mind organism doesn't really matter. My wanting it to happen ('seeking') is not going to hasten it. All I can do is to watch the seeking as it happens and subsides. <br><br>I know God is good, and I am happy.<br><br>Hare Krishna.<br><br>Rajeev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 Tks dear friends for bringing out such beautiful explanations. As dear Om prem ji said, there are different paths to attain Moksha, and dear blueraybirds Karmayoga is nothing but truth.<br><br> The problem comes when we start treating our truth as absolute truth. As I wrote in an earlier post, A bhakta hating gynai and a gyani hating Bhakta is not perfect sadhna. Advaita vedanta is the highest truth of all religions but Bhakti, karma, raj and Tantra are not untruths. They are different pathways to reach the summit. We have to synchronise all the truths....we have to see the truth of other path through our truth..and this is Sadhna.<br><br> Dear Tatwamasi has raised a very important question. Suppose I believe in Advait Vedanta and say I am God and whole world is Maya...or I am a Bhakta and believe that Krishna/Shiva/Durga is doing everything for me...in both the cases we can not ignore the very life we are living.<br><br> Yes Advaitin can call it a dream, but can one advaitin stand before an approaching train and say it is Maya it will not harm me. When we are in the body (or say dream) we have to live as per the truth of body (or dream). When in Rome do what the Romans do.<br><br> Why this Universe (or its illusion) has been manifested by God....and what is our duty as per our peice of truth towards this Universe. How do we practically put our truth into our deeds ??<br><br> Think of a piece of iron rusting on the road and a Railway Engine. The piece of iron lying on the road can very well boast well I and Engine are same we are both made of iron....and logically it is true. But practically is it worth ? Well the rusting iron, can himself become happy by treating himself equal to Engline, but nobody else will respect him...it will only be kicked and further rusted. It has to remove its rust....go to furnace...get beaten by the iron-master....and shaped into an engine to become respected and useful.....AND this process is SADHNA !!<br><br> Knowing the truth is not all....living the truth is important. If Krishna is all then how do l live my life ? How will I treat those who are attacking me...or are trying to remove my name from history ..or are trying to snatch bread from my children..or trying to molest my sister/wife/mother ??<br><br> If I am Brahm....how do I live my life as Brahm...should I just satisfy myself that I am Brahm....and continue my life as I wish ??? <br><br> Sadhna is the way how I transform my truth into my daily work...into my life...We can lecture long...we can cut and paste thousands verses from books....we can with our strong logics prove ourselves right and others wrong. But the Universal system does not work as per our wishes (even if we have got the truth or become great bhakta)....it will break us...mould us...re-shape us as per its latent plan.<br><br> In such case what will be my sadhna and how will I achieve it ???<br><br>Hari Om Tat Sat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 <<'swalpamapyasya dharmasya traayate mahato bhayaat': Even a little of this understanding frees you from mightiest of fears>><br><br>thanks once again for a very honest reply, anything else would have caused some very uncomfortable questions.<br><br>the polemics('whatis','what appears to be' etc) in the last few paras were quite unnecessary, because if you had 'digested' the concept you wouldn't be here replying to me !<br><br>Yours is a stand that intellectually has no distance from the final realisation, but sometimes the clever "me" builds up the ego even on this "'swalpamapyasya dharmasya " causing one of the biggest delusions to appear. How do you counter this apparent danger? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 With respect to the understanding of Advaita Vedanta, it seems you have raised two questions.<br><br>1. If all there is, is consciousness, would you not save your life from impending death?<br>2. If everything is Krishna, how do I perform my daily tasks?<br><br>I will try to answer these questions from what I have heard my Guru (Shri Balsekar - many resources on him available on the Net) say.<br><br>To the first question, he would tell us the story of Shankara, the great advaitin. One a king in whose kingdom Shankara happened to be, decided to test Shankara's belief in his own philosophy. So when Shankara was walking on a street, the king made an elephant charge on him. Shankara ran and took shelter in a house. Later on the king confronted him and asked if everything was a dream, why should he run like that? Shankara calmly replied that even the running was part of the same dream, and he held both the elephant and his own body to be illusory.<br><br>The crux of the problem is that we accept the world to be a dream, but somehow exclude ourselves from that.<br><br>There is another story. A king once had a dream in which he was a butterfly. He asked a sage 'Am I a king having the dream of a butterfly, or vice-versa?'. The sage answered that both were dreams seen by one non-dual consciousness.<br><br>Second question is equally interesting. If everything happens automatically, what am I to DO? If everything is Krishna, how do I sweep the house and drive a car? <br><br>The answer to this as given by Shri Balsekar is as simple as it is profound. He says, 'Do what you like. Because every moment what you think you should do is precisely what God wants you to think.' The concept doesn't push you into doing some saadhanaa, true. But it doesn't hold you back, too. Shri Ramakrishna used to be visited by many Gurus and he simply obeyed them without questioning. He did yogic saadhana, taantric rites, Islamic meditations, everything. That was because in him there was no inclination of disobeying the teachers who happened to come his way. He simply took them to be messengers of Maa Kaali. <br><br>So I repeat, the concept doesn't stop you from doing what you think you must do. It does remove the anxiety about the fruits of works performed.<br><br>Hare Krishna.<br><br>Rajeev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 <<...because if you had 'digested' the concept you wouldn't be here replying to me !>><br><br>Quite right. Rameshji says jokingly, 'If someone comes and offers you either nirvaana or a million dollars, my advice to you would be to accept the money, because with that at least there would be 'someone' to enjoy it'.<br><br><<Yours is a stand that intellectually has no distance from the final realisation, but sometimes the clever "me" builds up the ego even on this "'swalpamapyasya dharmasya " causing one of the biggest delusions to appear. How do you counter this apparent danger?>><br><br>Intellectual understanding is not the same as the final realisation. It is the still the Ego (me) who has this intellectual understanding. So if you read that from a book and understand, it would still be the ego who has understood. The final realisation is when there isn't a slightest doubt. It happens suddenly. Anything that happens in a duration is simply a perpetuation of the ego. The ego always thinks in terms of wanting to become something that it is not. The ego creates a distance between what-is and what-should-be. So there is this danger of the ego thinking it has made some 'progress' through intellectual understanding, and thus enlarging itself. <br><br>Intellectual understanding is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for enlightenment. Enlightenment is a natural process, and it has a statistical quality about it (one in a thousand among ones in thousands). Knowing this, I have resigned myself to the possibility that enlightenment may not happen, after all.<br><br>So there is peace.<br><br>Hare krishna.<br><br>Rajeev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 Dear Silent Soul,<br><br>You wrote:<br>"The problem comes when we start treating our truth as absolute truth. As I wrote in an earlier post, A bhakta hating gynai and a gyani hating Bhakta is not perfect sadhna. Advaita vedanta is the highest truth of all religions but Bhakti, karma, raj and Tantra are not untruths. They are different pathways to reach the summit. We have to synchronise all the truths....we have to see the truth of other path through our truth..and this is Sadhna."<br><br>I have to say from reading this that you are suffering from the very problem that you are addressing. You said that Advaita Vedanta is the highest truth of all religions. This statement makes it at least appear that you view Advaita Vedanta as the Absolute truth - hence the problem. You are, no doubt, aware that there are other schools of Vedanta that are devtional and are at odds with the conclusions of Advaita - for example; dvaita, vasistadvaita - to name only two. These schools have a different view of ultimate reality.<br><br>This really lays the ground for a discussion I have been meaning to bring up with this club. I would like to share with the club what the 'goal' of the Aesthetic Vedanta propounded by Sri Chaitanya and his associates is and I would ask others to share their vision of life's ultimate goal.<br><br>According to Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta the Vedas generally speak of four basic pursuits of humanity - Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha (religiousity, economic development, sense gradification and liberation). The Srimad Bhagavatam(Vyasa's personal commentary on Vedanta Sutra) starts out in the second sloka stating that it completely rejects all religious activities which are materially motivated - these, according to the text are the four above mentioned human pursuits. The Bhagavata propounds the highest truth which is understandable by those devotees who are fully pure in heart. The text is literally called by the Gaudiyas Srimad - meaning beautiful and also signifying the primal shakti of the Lord - Sri Radha. The Gaudiya's have said of the text that it is all about Sri Radha and have referred to the text sometimes as 'Radha Bhagavata'. This is interesting in that Sri Radha is never mentioned by name in the entire text! She is mentioned in an indirect way and this is explained in various ways by Gaudiya commentators (I can elaborate more on this is anyone requests).<br><br>Oops, have to end this now to get my son off to school. Maybe one of the other Gaudiya's who are members here can elaborate on this. However the final goal, or fifth goal as it is sometimes referred to, according to the Gaudiya's is Prema - love of God.<br><br>your servant,<br>Audarya lila dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 Blessed Self<br><br>May I comment on the first of two questions you raised, viz.<br><br><<With respect to the understanding of Advaita Vedanta, it seems you have raised two questions. <br>1.If all there is, is consciousness, would you not save your life from impending death?<br>2. If everything is Krishna, how do I perform my daily tasks?>><br><br>The first question is misleading, in that it assumes one has to be alive, in a body, to be conscious. If that were the case, most people would, indeed, save their life from impending death, although there are millions of examples of people who chose not to save their own life in order that someone else's life could be saved. <br><br>But it is not the case, that consciousness requires a iving human body. Pure Consciousness, the end of everyone's spiritual journey, does not require a human body. In fact, when one enters that final Turiya stage of consciousness, one very soon enters mahasamadhi because the body (and human life) is no longer needed. <br><br>A real world example that answers your question by saying, "No. One does not necessarily save their life from impending death." can be found in the life of Swami<br>Sivananda. <br><br>One day while Swami Sivananda was holding satsang in Rishikesh, a disgruntled ashram resident attacked Swami Sivananda on stage with an axe. Swami Sivananda made no move to defend himself or avoid the blows. His disciples, however, most notably Swami Vishnudevananda, wrestled the axe away from the attacker and would have beaten him if Swami Sivananda had not intervened to stop them. <br><br>The attacker was arrested and taken to jail. Swami Sivananda went to the police station, visited the man, persuaded the police to release the man, took the man back to the ashram where he feted the man and the next day gave the man money for train fare to<br>visit his family.<br><br>Swami Sivananda did not resist the attack because he was in a state of Pure Consciousness and recognizing the triviality of having a human life when weighed against be Pure Consciousness, remained in samadhi while events swirled around him. The choice between life and nonlife that you found so obvious, depends on how wide and profound one's vision is. For Swami Sivananda it is a choice between Pure Consciousness and illusion. After the attack, still in a state of Divine Grace, Swami Sivananda tended to the attacker's welfare.<br><br>So there are many examples of people not attempting to save themselves from impending death because they have a greater vision or good in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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