Enlightenment,,,,,,,,

April 18, 2001

Dear Blueraybird, The Srimad Bhagavatam

lists nine processes of devotional service by which the

soul is freed from anarthas (impediments to devotion).

The first two are Sravanam and Kirtanam - hearing and

chanting about the Lord and his pastimes. The third

process mentioned is Smaranam or remembrance. This is

meditation on the Lord and his pastimes. My real

point is that if we really want to be effective at

being a warrior on the front lines in Armegeddon, we

will have to purify ourselves first. How will a

prisoner be able to free his or her fellow

prisoners? Too many take up the banner of spiritual warrior when

they themselves are not shining examples. Hypocricy is

easy to spot and is one of the reasons why so many

walk away from 'religion' - because they see that many

of those who are 'shouting from the roof tops' are

often times not even decent human beings, let alone

spiritually emancipated. I am not accusing you or

saying that you fit this description, but what is needed

are Acharya's - those whose actions are in complete

accordance with their speech. They have taken the medicine

themselves and have transcended the pushings of the mind and

senses. Guadiya Vaishnava sanyasis are sometimes referred

to as Maharaja which means great king. One learned

scholar took exception to this saying, 'I refuse to

address a renunciate as a king.' The answer to this

critcism is that the real rulers of the world are

unbridled minds and senses. One who has gained control over

his/her mind and senses is a true king in the sense that

they have gained control over that which controls the

entire world. The Isopanisad states that one who can

control the pushings of the tongue, genitals and belly as

well as anger, lust and greed is qualified to make

disciples all over the world. So, I personally

wouldn't say that this forum accomplishes little. If even

one person is inspired to improve their inner life,

it is immeasurably successful. As the saying goes -

if you want to save the world, first you have to

save yourself. The yuga Avatara - Sri Krsna

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has given the process of spiritual

emancipation for this age - chanting of the holy names of God.

It is said: Hari nama Hari nama Hari nama eva

kevalam Kalaua nasteva nasteva nasteva gatir anya ta (please

excuse any misspelling) In this age of kali chant the

holy names of Hari, chant the holy names of Hari,

chant the holy names of Hari. For spiritual

emancipation there is no other way, no other way, no other

way. So, if you have Krsna in your heart and on your lips

- then you can give him to others and it will be

effective - otherwise not. your servant Audarya

lila dasa

April 18, 2001

So Bluebird dear, do you really believe that

discourse in the market place accomplishes little? You

could never be more wrong. It is discourse that brings

nations together to discuss their 'perception' of what is

wrong which we may not see. You see, each of us has our

'world view' and each of us truly believes that view is

the only correct one. Without dialogue the only

recourse left is to fight to the death with the victor's

view as the winning view. That is how it use to be

many years ago. This view is based upon the idea that

God fights along side the truth sayer alone. Frankly,

i believe that God does not get involved in our

petty squabbles and leaves the law of karma to alone

judge. This is my view as a retired soldier. Siva

and Kali do not incite us to fight but instead to

love. "I AM a warrior on the front lines in Armageddon.

Who dares to take up his sword and join me?" A

warrior is not keen to fight unless absolutely necessary.

When we do fight we fight with disciplined minds

though our bodies are active; our minds are trained to

be still and aware of all around us. This training

takes YEARS to get us to a point were we do not kill

ourselves with our own impulsiveness. i was just

remembering coming home one year from Germany with my son. We

flew by United and as i belted him in the flight

attendant was demonstrating what to do if there was a loss

of cabin pressure. You must first put the mask on

YOURSELF and only then do you assist placing the mask on

small children. In order to help those around you you

must first help yourself. If we try to mask a

squirming child before we place the mask on us we may both

perish from lack of oxygen. If there was no dialogue

from the attendant i would have masked him first. Do

you see how this analogy is also true in spiritual

warfare? Can you say that you fully understand the

instructions and that your spiritual mask is on correctly so

that you may really help others? That is the object of

this forum. from sarge's point of

view... om tat sat >:*)

April 18, 2001

Dear maataa blueraybird, you must have

read the responses by now and i am sure you must be

smiling quite wide. Quite direct is your

approach.. <Meditation is simply meditation. Talk is simply

talk.> Nothing can be truer. I can only advise your

'advisors' that if they trust god so much, why forget that

he is totally inscrutable in his ways . What sort of

music he plays from what instrument can only be a

revelation to us and it is our ego that sits on the judge's

chair and tells somebody to 'purify oneself first'. It

is we who are always deciding what is right and not

right, not God. He has time and again displayed

unconventional(ie.wrong) means of salvation in his limitless compassion

but still people insist on their 'rightness'. Why

this violence by preachers of non-violence ? I

see the beginning of a spark in you which has the

potential of becoming the 'davanala' (great fire), the

destroyer of great evils. Strange that, though the spark

is in its infancy, dousing attempts have already

begun. Listen all, there is no greater sin than to divert

anybody from his/her inspiration which as always is

god-given. I am all ears and loving every minute of it, please

do continue with your veera-rasa (fighter-class)

posts. shankar

April 19, 2001

<<Either you know how to meditate or you

don't; either you practice it or you don't. I have tried

and I don't. There is a barrier that I don't seem to

be able to cross....it's called an active mind

willing a body to be active and not sit still in idle

thought. Yes...I know the benefits of meditation. When the

time is right, I shall practice

it.>> Dive deep into your own words. They contain one very

important message - everything happens at the right time.

Meditation is a great thing, but it has to happen by itself.

You cannot decide and meditate, just as you cannot

decide and be innocent, decide and go to sleep, decide

and believe in God. These things happen

automatically, at their predestined time. You cannot try

and bring about meditation. But if the attempts

happen, you cannot stop them either. Everything happens

automatically, according to God's

will. Regards, Rajeev

April 19, 2001

dear rajeev your answer has the same hidden

question. Do we have free will ? Is it God who

decides that we should start meditation now....then is it

useless to discuss and read books and go to guru

? Are My old Karma more powerful than Krishna ?

who is deciding my fate, My Old Karma, my will power

or Krishna (or God by any name)?? Is there a

concerete reply ? Hari Om Tat Sat

April 19, 2001

<<dear rajeev your answer has the same

hidden question. Do we have free will

?>> Yes, that is right. If this question is answered,

everything will fall in place

automatically. <<Is it God who decides that we should start

meditation now....then is it useless to discuss and read

books and go to guru ?>> Yes, it *is*

useless to read books and go to a guru, if it is not

God's will that enlightenment should happen in a

particular body-mind mechanism. Krishna testifies to this

when he says that among a thousand persons there is

one who seeks Me, and among many such seekers, there

is rarely a one who knows Me in

principle. Sometimes, by God's will, enlightenment happens without a

Guru (in the form of a person) too. Such was the case

with Ramana Maharshi, and also in case of Mata

Amritanandamayi. However, so helpless is a seeker that he can't help

reading books, going to a supposed Guru, etc. It happens

like that because God wants it to happen that

way. <<Are My old Karma more powerful than Krishna

?>> Whose karma? Who is this 'me'? By investigation, sages

have realised that the 'me' is imaginary. Events

happen; deeds are done; there is no doer thereof. So said

the Buddha. The Geeta too emphasises this

point through verses such as 'naaham karteti manyate

(The sage doesn't think he is the doer of the actions

that happen through his body-mind mechanism)',

'naadatte kasyachit paapam na caiva sukrtam vibhuh (the

Lord bestows neither merit nor sin on the jeevas).

etc. In fact, nothing can be more powerful than Krishna

since all the power and glory belongs to Him only.

Vasudeva is all there is, but such understanding is

rare. <<who is deciding my fate, My Old Karma, my will power

or Krishna (or God by any

name)??>> Nobody is deciding your fate (rather the fate of the

body-mind organism in which a fictitious 'you' has appeared

by accident.) The fate has already been decided. The

law of causation is the basis of the theory of Karma,

but it is itself based on the false notion of time

and space. Krishna is beyond time and space. ('I am

before time ever was' said Jesus.) It is Krishna alone

(or, as you say, God by any other name. I prefer the

name 'Consciousness') who knows about the fate of

every body-mind organism. We cannot hope to know His

mind. Finally, <<Is there a concerete reply

?>> Consciousness (Vasudeva) is all there is. All there is, is

Vasudeva (Consciousness). Hare

Krishna. Rajeev

April 19, 2001

<<(rather the fate of the body-mind

organism in which a fictitious 'you' has appeared by

accident.) >>> Nothing in this Universe is

by Accident ! Everything is well planned and well

thought of. Moreover your reply is confusing, Is

Krishna different from "I", if no then I have free will

because i am krishna. If not then why Krishna is

so illogical giving riches to one, and poverty to

one, health to one and cancer to other, life for one

and death for other, marriage for one, rapes for

other Pls dont hide behind the word "Leela" as i know there

is nothing called Leela.

April 19, 2001

Beloved Shankar: Ah! One who understood my

posting! To the dear souls who replied to it......yes, I do

shout from the rooftops the word "Victory!" (In the

Light.) When I mentioned discourse in the marketplace...what I

was saying is that it is time to take action, rather

than sit and ponder the meaning of Life. Life is

Love. That Love is being challenged in this decade by

the forces of darkness. I can no longer sit idly by

and do nothing...thereby adding to my karma this

life. I am a Lightbearer and my Knight Commander

(An Ascended Master) would frown if I did not try to save

souls in the name of God/Allah/I AM/Brahma... I

do not advocate violence....only fighting the good

fight. The world is unaware that we are in

Armageddon..now! These are the last days. What I say is merely

to stir the fires of the heart...awaken the

soul. Thank you, saraswati_chandra for seeing where I'm

coming from. Yes....I am smiling!

*<) blueray P.S. Meditation is very important. I hope

to be

successful at it soon..........

April 19, 2001

Audarya lila dasa: I don't recall saying that "this forum accomplishes

little". I believe it accomplishes much. Keep on accomplishing, dear

heart. blueray

April 19, 2001

O gosh, i just realised that i have put my

hand in the hornet's nest. By criticising one

krishna-bhakta, now i have the whole lot of them "non-violent"

beings on my back trying to discredit me. Strangely,

one ego in the body was trouble enough but should i

invest this login id(saraswati_chandra) and begin to

feel hurt ? O krishna-bhaktas, krishna sits

in me as much as you, and he has fought many

battles in his life killed many even advised bheema

how to kill jarasandha by splitting him into two

by pulling out both the legs, is that gory

enough? Do you know your innermost well enough? That you

try to typecast him in a mould of your own

making. If you knew of his 'other' exploits i wonder how

you hoity-toities would react? May be that is

why, krishna's starightforward and deep love with the gopis

has been decorated and coloured by so many

'explanations' why? just because we feel uncomfortable with some things,

god may have done? He smiles and we the naked

lovers smile

April 19, 2001

Dear Blueraybird, Sorry if I

misinterpreted your words: "Discourse in the market

place accomplishes little." and "Talk is simply

talk" Who has life can give life, that is the principle of

divine transmission. Talk that flows from the heart of

realization inspires all of us. My own experience in this

world is that those individuals who are deeply involved

in their internal life have had a profound impact on

me when I meet them because they speak to my heart

from their heart. Those who have not developed

internally as much and are speaking more from their head,

even if they are speaking the same words, have not had

the same impact on me in terms of inspiring

me. I see this club as a place to share our own

internal growth, encourage others and be encouraged by

others. Your servant, Audarya lila Again, sorry if I

misunderstood your post and offended you in any way.

April 19, 2001

""what I was saying is that it is time to take

action, rather than sit and ponder the meaning of Life.

..... That Love is being challenged in this decade by

the forces of darkness. I can no longer sit idly by

and do nothing...thereby adding to my karma this

life. I am a Lightbearer and my Knight Commander (An

Ascended Master) would frown if I did not try to save

souls in the name of God/Allah/I

AM/Brahma..""". I raised some important questions of all sadhaks in

posts no. 758 and 778; Perhaps you missed it

bluraybird. Or perhaps I missed your reply. Can you

share with us the suggestions made by your Master's

teachings about how to go about "fighting the good fight"?

What would you consider a "good fight"? Who would

decide which fight is good and which one is not? Where

does love and compassion fit into the picture? Or does

it? Love and light to you ... Tat Twam

Asi UMA

April 19, 2001

Audarya lila: You didn't...offend me, that

is. Thanks for your posting. I try not to

speak from the head, but from the heart. Sometimes it's

not "me" speaking...... Peace &

Harmony, blueray

April 19, 2001

Saraswati: Indeed......the hornet's nest! But, it's taught that

one should not be offended by anything another says or does. blueraybird

April 19, 2001

Uma, my dear. Yes, I missed your other

posts but will try to read them tomorrow. How

does one "fight the good fight"? With Love...boundless

love. (I also refer to the battle being waged in other

realms by angels against the fallen ones.) A

"good fight" is one in which a soul is saved from

darkness; a fallen angel or laggard is bound and taken for

judgement;the 'bad guys' don't succeed in a nefarious

endeavour....etc. The Ascended Masters (Krishna, Shiva, et al) decide

what course we should take on behalf of God. The words

"good and bad" are really not relevent. Love and

compassion fit in perfectly. That is what it's all

about.....the 'good' fight! Hope I've answered to your

satisfaction. Peace, blueraybird

April 19, 2001

Blessed Self If I could make two related

comments on your post: First, yoga/vedanta tells us

that there are four main paths that will bring one to

Self-Realization. Meditation is part of one of those paths-the path

of Raja Yoga. It is clear that you are not inclined

to the Raja Yoga path. Another path is Jnana

Yoga, the intellectual path to Self-Realization. This

method consists of always asking, "Is this Real? Is this

unchanging?" It is called "Neti. Neti." or "Not this. Not

this." The aim is to eliminate the layers of unreality,

the illusions of maya, to finally arrive at

Self-Realization, Brahman. But this path doesn't seem to be the

path for you either. Then, there is Bhakti

Yoga, the way of devotion. Here, one establishes a

personal relationship with their Ishta Devata and offers

all of their love and attention to God. The Bhakti

strives to maintain pure, unselfish love and total

devotion toward the Universal Spirit as it is manifested

in every person and every situation encountered. The

most essential step for a Bhakti is the constant

repetition of the name of God. This, too, does not seem to

describe you very well. Finally, there is Karma

Yoga, the path of action and work for those whose mind

is busy, not peaceful and who are not inclined to

withdraw. This seems to accord with your description of

your self. Karma Yoga is characterized by selfless

service and detachment and is an effort to overcome the

ego by renouncing the emotional ties to one's

actions. One seeks to work for the benefit of others

without expectation of reward and without attachment to

the results of the labour. The Karma Yogi tries to

see the Divine everywhere, in every person and

situation, and all actions are offered to God. God is served

and worshipped in each person with whom the Karma

Yogi comes in contact. The Karma Yogi thanks God for

the opportunity to serve Him through actions directed

toward others. It seems clear that you are a

Karma Yogi. The second point concerns how you approach

your karma yoga. You need to develop viveka,

discrimination between the Real and the unreal, between the

transcendental Self and the lower self of the senses and ego.

You also need to develop vairagya or dispassion, the

self-discipline of abandoning passion and renouncing the fruits

of your labour. Vairagya and abhyasa are the

two fundamental traits of a spiritual life. Abhyasa

is the practical application of the various sadhana

techniques for attaining to Self-Realiztion. You have the

desire for practical application. Now all you have to do

is channel that energy into Love for the Divine and

project that onto whatever actions you take. See God in

all. Please don't see others as obstacles. They are

not. They are you. They and you are Brahman. The right

approach to interacting with them, will reveal your

Divinity and their Divinity. By changing your approach a

bit, you will be more likely to accomplish what you

want to accomplish. In referring to work,

Mother Teresa, one of the great Karma Yogis of the 20th

Century said, "This opens the heart, purifies the mind."

Amrit Desai says, "Work is Love made visible."

By the way, discussion and studying together are

swadhyaya, an important part of the Raja Yoga, Bhakti Yoga,

and Jnana Yoga paths. Swadhyaya also informs the

Karma Yogi, helping him or her toward a wider, more

inclusive and more peaceful view of the world and his or

her place in it. Om and Prem

April 19, 2001

<<Nothing in this Universe is by Accident !

Everything is well planned and well thought

of.>> I was aware my using the word 'accident' would

invite some objection. You are right, nothing in this

universe is by accident. But that is only from the

standpoint of the ever-changing universe. From the

standpoint of the Absolute, there was never a need of any

universe. Take the analogy of the dream. In a dream,

everything 'seems' purposeful. But that is only so long as

the dream lasts. The dream itself is only accidental

- in the sense, it serves no purpose to the dreamer

consciousness. Moreover, if you really think that everything is well

planned and well thought of, then try to answer your

questions like <<Why Krishna is so illogical giving

riches to one, and poverty to one, health to one and

cancer to other, life for one and death for other,

marriage for one, rapes for other>> yourself. For

me, answer to every 'why' is 'why

not?' <<Moreover your reply is confusing,>> If my

reply is confusing, simply ignore it. It only means you

are not supposed to understand the concept of

predestination (through me, at least). It means some other

concept may appeal to you. Concepts such as necessity of

meditation, law of reincarnation and transmigration, law of

Karma, ufo - whatever. Whatever is said in words,

including my understanding of predestination, is concept

only. You use one concept to remove all other concepts,

and then throw that concept also - just as you use a

thorn to remove other thorn, and then throw both

thorns. << Is Krishna different from "I", if no then I have

free will because i am krishna.>> Of

course I am Krishna. But this I includes Everything. It

is the Absolute. For the Absolute the question of

free will doesn't arise at all. It is like this: The

Sun and the Moon and all the heavenly bodies are

moving in there respective orbits. So they can think

whether the motion is out of their free will or whether

it is predestined. But what about the universe as a

whole? It is not going anywhere. You see, the

entire confusion is because we take the 'I' the Absolute

to be the same as 'me' the person. It is a

linguistic problem. Fortunately, the English language at

least has this distinction between I and me. Think

about the confusion in languages where this distinction

is not present. Ramana Maharshi advised ' Find out

who is this 'me'?' He, of course, spoke in Tamil, and

it got translated as 'Ask yourself Who am I'. I is

the ultimate subjectivity. We can never find it. It

is the I which (or who) finds everything

else. To me the concept of predestination seems most

effective. To you it could be something else.

<<Pls dont hide behind the word "Leela" as i know there

is nothing called Leela. >> Who wants

to hide? I am what I am. I am beyond space and

therefore I have no place to rest, let alone hide. If you

KNOW there is nothing called Leela, it is fine, God

bless you. But I suspect it is more likely that you

have heard about the concept of Leela and some

conflicting concept, and you find the other concept more

appealing. You don't KNOW a thing. Don't worry. Trust God.

Everything will happen as it is destined to

happen. Still confused? Forget it. Hare

krishna. Rajeev

April 20, 2001

Excellent clarification ! Putting things

in the right perspective, that is what i like(ok,

maybe you are not bothered by my likes and

dislikes). the monkey-mind with so many toys, plays on with

reasoning after reasoning, based on its 'knowledge' of a

few years, out of the infinite age of the

universe. the concept of predestination is not 'digestable' to

most because it kills their egos and all their hopes

alongwith it. How can anybody live without an ounce of hope

even ? Be honest friend, have you digested

the concept you believe in, fully? I gather not,

for that would be moksha

April 20, 2001

<<Be honest friend, have you digested

the concept you believe in, fully? I gather not,

for that would be moksha>> You mean,

whether enlightenment has happened in this body-mind

mechanism called Rajeev Deshpande? No. There is only

intellectual understanding. I happened to meet Shri Ramesh

Balsekar, a sage and advaita teacher, in Mumbai, and he

explained what he calls his 'concept'. But even this

intellectual understanding has had a very significant

influence. The anxiety of a seeker is almost gone. What the

Geeta says is true indeed - 'swalpamapyasya dharmasya

traayate mahato bhayaat': Even a little of this

understanding frees you from mightiest of fears. This

is the frank reply. Alternatively, there could be an

'intellectual' answer (coming from the intellectual

understanding) to your question as well. You are asking a

person whether he is liberated. But liberation is never

'of a person'. It is always 'from the person'. The

person is 'what-appears-to-be'. The Absolute is

'what-is'. The 'what-appears-to-be' can never be free, since

it is only an illusion. The 'what-is' needs no

liberation, it was never bound. Liberation nothing but

liberation from the concept of liberation, indeed from all

concepts. Whether enlightenment happens in this body-mind organism

doesn't really matter. My wanting it to happen

('seeking') is not going to hasten it. All I can do is to

watch the seeking as it happens and subsides. I

know God is good, and I am happy. Hare

Krishna. Rajeev

April 20, 2001

Tks dear friends for bringing out such beautiful

explanations. As dear Om prem ji said, there are different

paths to attain Moksha, and dear blueraybirds Karmayoga

is nothing but truth. The problem comes when

we start treating our truth as absolute truth. As I

wrote in an earlier post, A bhakta hating gynai and a

gyani hating Bhakta is not perfect sadhna. Advaita

vedanta is the highest truth of all religions but Bhakti,

karma, raj and Tantra are not untruths. They are

different pathways to reach the summit. We have to

synchronise all the truths....we have to see the truth of

other path through our truth..and this is

Sadhna. Dear Tatwamasi has raised a very important

question. Suppose I believe in Advait Vedanta and say I am

God and whole world is Maya...or I am a Bhakta and

believe that Krishna/Shiva/Durga is doing everything for

me...in both the cases we can not ignore the very life we

are living. Yes Advaitin can call it a dream,

but can one advaitin stand before an approaching

train and say it is Maya it will not harm me. When we

are in the body (or say dream) we have to live as per

the truth of body (or dream). When in Rome do what

the Romans do. Why this Universe (or its

illusion) has been manifested by God....and what is our

duty as per our peice of truth towards this Universe.

How do we practically put our truth into our deeds

?? Think of a piece of iron rusting on the road and

a Railway Engine. The piece of iron lying on the

road can very well boast well I and Engine are same we

are both made of iron....and logically it is true.

But practically is it worth ? Well the rusting iron,

can himself become happy by treating himself equal to

Engline, but nobody else will respect him...it will only

be kicked and further rusted. It has to remove its

rust....go to furnace...get beaten by the iron-master....and

shaped into an engine to become respected and

useful.....AND this process is SADHNA !! Knowing the

truth is not all....living the truth is important. If

Krishna is all then how do l live my life ? How will I

treat those who are attacking me...or are trying to

remove my name from history ..or are trying to snatch

bread from my children..or trying to molest my

sister/wife/mother ?? If I am Brahm....how do I live my life

as Brahm...should I just satisfy myself that I am

Brahm....and continue my life as I wish ??? Sadhna is

the way how I transform my truth into my daily

work...into my life...We can lecture long...we can cut and

paste thousands verses from books....we can with our

strong logics prove ourselves right and others wrong.

But the Universal system does not work as per our

wishes (even if we have got the truth or become great

bhakta)....it will break us...mould us...re-shape us as per its

latent plan. In such case what will be my sadhna

and how will I achieve it ??? Hari Om Tat Sat

April 20, 2001

<<'swalpamapyasya dharmasya traayate mahato

bhayaat': Even a little of this understanding frees you

from mightiest of fears>> thanks once

again for a very honest reply, anything else would have

caused some very uncomfortable questions. the

polemics('whatis','what appears to be' etc) in the last few paras were

quite unnecessary, because if you had 'digested' the

concept you wouldn't be here replying to me

! Yours is a stand that intellectually has no distance

from the final realisation, but sometimes the clever

"me" builds up the ego even on this "'swalpamapyasya

dharmasya " causing one of the biggest delusions to appear.

How do you counter this apparent danger?

April 20, 2001

With respect to the understanding of Advaita

Vedanta, it seems you have raised two questions. 1.

If all there is, is consciousness, would you not

save your life from impending death? 2. If

everything is Krishna, how do I perform my daily

tasks? I will try to answer these questions from what I

have heard my Guru (Shri Balsekar - many resources on

him available on the Net) say. To the first

question, he would tell us the story of Shankara, the great

advaitin. One a king in whose kingdom Shankara happened to

be, decided to test Shankara's belief in his own

philosophy. So when Shankara was walking on a street, the

king made an elephant charge on him. Shankara ran and

took shelter in a house. Later on the king confronted

him and asked if everything was a dream, why should

he run like that? Shankara calmly replied that even

the running was part of the same dream, and he held

both the elephant and his own body to be

illusory. The crux of the problem is that we accept the world

to be a dream, but somehow exclude ourselves from

that. There is another story. A king once had a dream in

which he was a butterfly. He asked a sage 'Am I a king

having the dream of a butterfly, or vice-versa?'. The

sage answered that both were dreams seen by one

non-dual consciousness. Second question is equally

interesting. If everything happens automatically, what am I to

DO? If everything is Krishna, how do I sweep the

house and drive a car? The answer to this as

given by Shri Balsekar is as simple as it is profound.

He says, 'Do what you like. Because every moment

what you think you should do is precisely what God

wants you to think.' The concept doesn't push you into

doing some saadhanaa, true. But it doesn't hold you

back, too. Shri Ramakrishna used to be visited by many

Gurus and he simply obeyed them without questioning. He

did yogic saadhana, taantric rites, Islamic

meditations, everything. That was because in him there was no

inclination of disobeying the teachers who happened to come

his way. He simply took them to be messengers of Maa

Kaali. So I repeat, the concept doesn't stop you

from doing what you think you must do. It does remove

the anxiety about the fruits of works

performed. Hare Krishna. Rajeev

April 20, 2001

<<...because if you had 'digested' the

concept you wouldn't be here replying to me

!>> Quite right. Rameshji says jokingly, 'If someone comes

and offers you either nirvaana or a million dollars,

my advice to you would be to accept the money,

because with that at least there would be 'someone' to

enjoy it'. <<Yours is a stand that

intellectually has no distance from the final realisation, but

sometimes the clever "me" builds up the ego even on this

"'swalpamapyasya dharmasya " causing one of the biggest delusions

to appear. How do you counter this apparent

danger?>> Intellectual understanding is not the same as the final

realisation. It is the still the Ego (me) who has this

intellectual understanding. So if you read that from a book

and understand, it would still be the ego who has

understood. The final realisation is when there isn't a

slightest doubt. It happens suddenly. Anything that happens

in a duration is simply a perpetuation of the ego.

The ego always thinks in terms of wanting to become

something that it is not. The ego creates a distance

between what-is and what-should-be. So there is this

danger of the ego thinking it has made some 'progress'

through intellectual understanding, and thus enlarging

itself. Intellectual understanding is neither a

necessary nor a sufficient condition for enlightenment.

Enlightenment is a natural process, and it has a statistical

quality about it (one in a thousand among ones in

thousands). Knowing this, I have resigned myself to the

possibility that enlightenment may not happen, after

all. So there is peace. Hare

krishna. Rajeev

April 20, 2001

Dear Silent Soul, You wrote: "The

problem comes when we start treating our truth as

absolute truth. As I wrote in an earlier post, A bhakta

hating gynai and a gyani hating Bhakta is not perfect

sadhna. Advaita vedanta is the highest truth of all

religions but Bhakti, karma, raj and Tantra are not

untruths. They are different pathways to reach the summit.

We have to synchronise all the truths....we have to

see the truth of other path through our truth..and

this is Sadhna." I have to say from reading

this that you are suffering from the very problem that

you are addressing. You said that Advaita Vedanta is

the highest truth of all religions. This statement

makes it at least appear that you view Advaita Vedanta

as the Absolute truth - hence the problem. You are,

no doubt, aware that there are other schools of

Vedanta that are devtional and are at odds with the

conclusions of Advaita - for example; dvaita, vasistadvaita -

to name only two. These schools have a different

view of ultimate reality. This really lays the

ground for a discussion I have been meaning to bring up

with this club. I would like to share with the club

what the 'goal' of the Aesthetic Vedanta propounded by

Sri Chaitanya and his associates is and I would ask

others to share their vision of life's ultimate

goal. According to Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta the Vedas

generally speak of four basic pursuits of humanity -

Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha (religiousity, economic

development, sense gradification and liberation). The Srimad

Bhagavatam(Vyasa's personal commentary on Vedanta Sutra) starts out

in the second sloka stating that it completely

rejects all religious activities which are materially

motivated - these, according to the text are the four above

mentioned human pursuits. The Bhagavata propounds the

highest truth which is understandable by those devotees

who are fully pure in heart. The text is literally

called by the Gaudiyas Srimad - meaning beautiful and

also signifying the primal shakti of the Lord - Sri

Radha. The Gaudiya's have said of the text that it is

all about Sri Radha and have referred to the text

sometimes as 'Radha Bhagavata'. This is interesting in that

Sri Radha is never mentioned by name in the entire

text! She is mentioned in an indirect way and this is

explained in various ways by Gaudiya commentators (I can

elaborate more on this is anyone requests). Oops,

have to end this now to get my son off to school.

Maybe one of the other Gaudiya's who are members here

can elaborate on this. However the final goal, or

fifth goal as it is sometimes referred to, according to

the Gaudiya's is Prema - love of God. your

servant, Audarya lila dasa

April 20, 2001

Blessed Self May I comment on the first of

two questions you raised, viz. <<With

respect to the understanding of Advaita Vedanta, it seems

you have raised two questions. 1.If all there is,

is consciousness, would you not save your life from

impending death? 2. If everything is Krishna, how do I

perform my daily tasks?>> The first question

is misleading, in that it assumes one has to be

alive, in a body, to be conscious. If that were the

case, most people would, indeed, save their life from

impending death, although there are millions of examples of

people who chose not to save their own life in order

that someone else's life could be saved. But

it is not the case, that consciousness requires a

iving human body. Pure Consciousness, the end of

everyone's spiritual journey, does not require a human body.

In fact, when one enters that final Turiya stage of

consciousness, one very soon enters mahasamadhi because the body

(and human life) is no longer needed. A real

world example that answers your question by saying,

"No. One does not necessarily save their life from

impending death." can be found in the life of

Swami Sivananda. One day while Swami Sivananda was holding

satsang in Rishikesh, a disgruntled ashram resident

attacked Swami Sivananda on stage with an axe. Swami

Sivananda made no move to defend himself or avoid the

blows. His disciples, however, most notably Swami

Vishnudevananda, wrestled the axe away from the attacker and would

have beaten him if Swami Sivananda had not intervened

to stop them. The attacker was arrested and

taken to jail. Swami Sivananda went to the police

station, visited the man, persuaded the police to release

the man, took the man back to the ashram where he

feted the man and the next day gave the man money for

train fare to visit his family. Swami

Sivananda did not resist the attack because he was in a

state of Pure Consciousness and recognizing the

triviality of having a human life when weighed against be

Pure Consciousness, remained in samadhi while events

swirled around him. The choice between life and nonlife

that you found so obvious, depends on how wide and

profound one's vision is. For Swami Sivananda it is a

choice between Pure Consciousness and illusion. After

the attack, still in a state of Divine Grace, Swami

Sivananda tended to the attacker's welfare. So there

are many examples of people not attempting to save

themselves from impending death because they have a greater

vision or good in mind.

Sign In

Enlightenment,,,,,,,,

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