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Dear Bhagavatas:

Here is an enlightning article explaining the scientific basis of the Moola

Vigraham being in granite.

 

Inputs on the subject based on our authoritative Scriptures are welcome.

 

But, before posting, please make sure that they are not based on conjectures,

personal opinions and speculations.

Dasoham

Moderator

======================================================================

 

Dear Devotees,

 

I am sending the information sent to me by a fellow devotee of this group about

some experiments done with reference to moolavar in granite. The following quote

is taken out from ‘Indian Express’ news item published on 31st December, 1981(or

82).

 

This is about the HR and CE stall at the Tourist Trade Fair held at Chennai

then.

 

‘Teachers and students of Parasakthi College, Courtallam, through a set of

experiments using laboratory gadgets, make a scientific interpretation of the

chanting of slokas, abhisheka of the idol and offering of fruits and leaves.

"Temple worship has a definite scientific reasoning behind it", the assistant

professor in charge said.

 

First it is explained how there is a proportionate configuration to the sanctum

sanctorum and the idol it houses – the sanctorum is structured in such a way

that the idol in it reflects any sound wave to the maximum effect.

 

A tuning fork is vibrated in the hall with little sound reproduction, but when

it is struck and placed before the entrance of a small model sanctorum, a loud

hum is heard. The forks invariably produce a sound resembling the chant "OM".

 

The lecturer explained that among the various chants, "OM" had the largest

resonant effect and displaced a sizeable amount of atmosphere inside the

sanctum. This is possible only when the sanctum and the idol are made of

granite.

 

Next it is explained how the presence of negative ions increases in moist

condition rather in dry condition using a condenser to infer why the sanctum

sanctorum is always kept moist by pouring water over the idol and washing it

with water continuously. Similarly the conduction of the stone idol also

increases when it is moist – this is demonstrated by comparing the conductivity

of dry granite and that of a wet idol.

 

The materials used for the abhisheka of the idol increases the conductivity of

the stone through their own pH values. pH value of a substance is the negative

concentration of the ion it possesses. Most of the materials used for abhisheka

– milk, curd, sandalpaste, turmeric powder, vermilion powder, vibuthi have high

pH values, a simple chemical experiment shows. And when they are pored over the

idol they increase the conductivity of the idol, also ionizing it.

 

A resistance reading on the ohmmeter of the idol after these elements have been

poured shows the increased conductivity of the idol. The chanting of the mantras

and the more frequent "OM" sets the air column inside vibrating and the highly

sensitized idol conducts the ions of the abhisheka substance to the moist

atmosphere.

 

The lighting of camphor during the deeparadhna displaces the air, which is

partially charged with ions, and the devotees inside the sanctum inhale these

ions. These negative ions have the physiological function of fixing oxygen with

hemoglobin in the blood, the lecturer explained. They are concentrated on beach

shores and mountaintops in the early morning, which explains doctor’s advice to

heart patients for early morning beach walks.

 

In the final inference, it is explained, a devotee’s presence in the sanctum

during abhisheka helps his system induct more negative ions than he usually

inhales. A visit to the temple is a good substitute for morning walk, the

lecturer explained, and a tonic for good health.

 

But with temples becoming overcrowded, it would not be a wonder if these

negative ions are submerged by the excessive carbon dioxide exhaled in the

packed sanctum which is meant to house only ten people at a time. Similarly the

chanting of "OM" has also been reduced to a mere inaudible mumble, affecting its

highly resonant quality."

 

(end of the news report)

 

I think this explains why the sanctum sanctorum is also in granite. The non-use

of

 

electric lamps inside garbha griham and thaila-kaapu to moolavar seem to have

scientific relevance.

 

I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and the reasons for

use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do aagamaas say about the

choice of granite and other substances?

 

Regards,

 

Maya.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mail - Now with 25x more storage than before!

 

 

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Dear Bhagavatas:

As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be helpful if some PramaaNams from

our scriptures could be cited in support of the scientific explanations.

Moderator

===============================================================================

 

 

, Maya Iyengar <maya_s1717>

wrote:

> I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and

the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do

aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other substances?

> Regards,

> Maya.

 

 

Dear member,

 

The forwarded article is very interesting. If the experiments

described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun un-intended)

scientific justification for idolatry.

 

But it also makes one wonder about another thing.

 

If the granite inside the sanctum is so very important -- in terms

of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity etc. etc. -- then

perhaps the time has come for us to leave the 'moolavar-vigraham-s'

in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more

overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery

of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)? Surely, all the

heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as in some of our

temples) must be negatively interfering with, why even diminishing,

all the positive energy the granite is said to generate?

 

Can scientific-minded members please throw some light?

 

Thanks and regards,

 

dAsan,

Sudarshan

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Dear Bhagavatas:

The sujbect has been dealt with in Chapter 10 "Descending God" in my book

"Hinduism Rediscovered" and explains how we do not worship the image AS God but

God IN the image.

 

The statement "simlarly idolatry is not something that even the shastras

approve of" is not correct. The very concept of "archaavataara"

confirmed by Azhwars and Acharyas prove that it has the sanction of our

Scriptures.

 

Dasoham

Anbil Ramaswamy

===========================================================================

 

 

dear members,

i just thought to share a few of my views on the subject. none of them are

quoted in the shastras, since every generation has to make their own

observations as well.

 

1. please do not use the word 'idol' to refer to statues of our divinities.

it is a derogatory word, selectively applied to hinduism, and implies 'blind

following', e.g. hritik roshan is a teen idol!

 

2. it is always christian icons, greek statues, islamic symbolism, but

hindu idols. simlarly idolatry is not something that even the shastras

approve of!

 

3. if it is just the granite that is important then why is the form, name

and stories of the lord attached to it? it is not just the material that is

important. the mental impact on the believer in the mental/physical

presence of his/her divine faith is the most powerful factor. this can be

achieved in the home puja room at sandhya or during meditation.

 

4. even a hindu of any denomination or group knows and should know that

statues are not worshipped for their material but for their symbolism. a

vishnu statue of gold, granite, wood, marble, sketch on paper are all

equally important.

 

5. while my aim is not at all to dampen the scientific discusison over the

topic of granite's importance in pH values, i request members to keep in

mind that spirituality and devotion don't work so much at the physical

level as much as at the mental level.

 

regards,

shashi joshi

 

Sudarshan K Madabushi worked magic with the keyboard on Tue, Jul 20, 2004 at

01:22:22PM -0000:

> Dear Bhagavatas:

> As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be helpful if some PramaaNams

from our scriptures could be cited in support of the scientific explanations.

> Moderator

>

===============================================================================

>

>

> , Maya Iyengar <maya_s1717>

> wrote:

> > I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and

> the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do

> aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other substances?

> > Regards,

> > Maya.

>

>

> Dear member,

>

> The forwarded article is very interesting. If the experiments

> described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun un-intended)

> scientific justification for idolatry.

>

> But it also makes one wonder about another thing.

>

> If the granite inside the sanctum is so very important -- in terms

> of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity etc. etc. -- then

> perhaps the time has come for us to leave the 'moolavar-vigraham-s'

> in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more

> overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery

> of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)? Surely, all the

> heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as in some of our

> temples) must be negatively interfering with, why even diminishing,

> all the positive energy the granite is said to generate?

>

> Can scientific-minded members please throw some light?

>

> Thanks and regards,

>

> dAsan,

> Sudarshan

>

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Dear Sudarshan swamy,

 

Following is the text of my response to the originator & also to Srirangasri. I

hope it is posted soon.

 

Best regards

 

Lakshmi Narasimha dasan

 

Dear swamies,

 

This article is nothing but a 'super scientific facntasy'. These are dangerous

extrapolations of science & will stand no scientific test.

 

E.g., extrapolating this one would be lead to the suggestion that strong acids,

such as sulfuric or other, being extremely ionic if they are poured on the

granite material the effect would be even pronounced than the weakly acidic

substances that are talked about. The effect on haemoglobin will be even better

& so on... No one, sane & scientific will ever agree to these kind of arguments.

 

I would request the bhagavatha community to not to indulge in trying to give a

scientific reasoning to religious aspects. Let us leave it to lord. U know, he

has the powers to create new laws of science. E.g. floating of stone in water in

Ramayana. So, the existing laws of science just end in him.

 

To answer the querry, traditionally the vigrahams were carved from special stone

which does not contain materials with 'rajasa' and 'thamasa' characters. Only

black salagrama stone, which is personification of the Lord himself is to be

used for this. It is not granite please.!!. Only the Salagrama stone is

religiously acceptable for creating Lord's images. Later, accepting peoples

desire of portability for utsavams, Lord has accepted Panchaloha vigrahams to be

his abode.

 

I will stop here & leave u to reflect.

 

sajjana padapadma parama renuhu

 

Lakshmi Narasimha dasan

 

 

 

Sudarshan K Madabushi <mksudarshan2002 wrote: Dear Bhagavatas:

As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be helpful if some PramaaNams from

our scriptures could be cited in support of the scientific explanations.

Moderator

===============================================================================

 

 

, Maya Iyengar <maya_s1717>

wrote:

> I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and

the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do

aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other substances?

> Regards,

> Maya.

 

 

Dear member,

 

The forwarded article is very interesting. If the experiments

described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun un-intended)

scientific justification for idolatry.

 

But it also makes one wonder about another thing.

 

If the granite inside the sanctum is so very important -- in terms

of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity etc. etc. -- then

perhaps the time has come for us to leave the 'moolavar-vigraham-s'

in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more

overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery

of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)? Surely, all the

heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as in some of our

temples) must be negatively interfering with, why even diminishing,

all the positive energy the granite is said to generate?

 

Can scientific-minded members please throw some light?

 

Thanks and regards,

 

dAsan,

Sudarshan

 

 

 

/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Jai Sriman Narayana!

 

The moolavars in other temples may be an idol sujected

to the laws of physics, etc., but the Sri Moola

Vigrahas in Vaishnava Temples are an incarnation

(archavatharam)of Lord Sriman Narayana. He is beyond

these physical laws. Yes, for outsiders could analyze

Him using physical laws, but we know that He has

infinite power and infinite ways beyond the laws of

physics. Let us not accumulate sin by discussing and

attributing limited things to the limitless.

 

Thanks

Narender P. Reddy

 

 

 

--- Sudarshan K Madabushi

<mksudarshan2002 wrote:

> Dear Bhagavatas:

> As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be

> helpful if some PramaaNams from our scriptures could

> be cited in support of the scientific explanations.

> Moderator

>

===============================================================================

>

>

> , Maya Iyengar

> <maya_s1717>

> wrote:

> > I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion

> about this and

> the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some

> temples. What do

> aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other

> substances?

> > Regards,

> > Maya.

>

>

> Dear member,

>

> The forwarded article is very interesting. If the

> experiments

> described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun

> un-intended)

> scientific justification for idolatry.

>

> But it also makes one wonder about another thing.

>

> If the granite inside the sanctum is so very

> important -- in terms

> of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity

> etc. etc. -- then

> perhaps the time has come for us to leave the

> 'moolavar-vigraham-s'

> in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more

> overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of

> "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery

> of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)?

> Surely, all the

> heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as

> in some of our

> temples) must be negatively interfering with, why

> even diminishing,

> all the positive energy the granite is said to

> generate?

>

> Can scientific-minded members please throw some

> light?

>

> Thanks and regards,

>

> dAsan,

> Sudarshan

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vote for the stars of 's next ad campaign!

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Dr. Narender Reddy :

 

Thanks for your suggestion to stay

away from "attributing limited things

to limitless ".

 

Archai (Consecrated images are some thing

unique . Like the Lord's AvathAra Rahsyams

(Six points ) have to be understood properly

so that we do not go astray , the power of

Consecrated Moorthys at the temple have to be

disengaged from the material in which the Lord

has descended .

 

It has been said that the Cow possessing

milk in all its limbs releases the nourishing

milk thru its udders only . So does the consecrated

Moorthys release BhagavAn's saannidhyam

and KaaruNyam to those who seek refuge

thru the Moola and Uthsava BhErams created

by Rishis (Aarsham ) , the Lord (Svyam Vyaktham ),

humans (Maabusham ) and DEvAs for worship -

The SaaLagrama Moola BhErams as at SrIrangam ,

ThiruveLLUr are yet another unique forms ,

where the SaaLagramams themselves are

pervaded by SrIman NaarAyaNan .

 

Once we think of Ph and other things , we

will be way out of track . There are however

rigorous prescriptions for selection of the granite

or metal or wood , which are known to the Sthapathis

and Aagama experts.

 

V.Sadagopan

-

"Narender Reddy" <reddynp

"Sudarshan K Madabushi" <mksudarshan2002;

<>

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 5:13 PM

Re: Re: Moolavar

 

 

> Jai Sriman Narayana!

>

> The moolavars in other temples may be an idol sujected

> to the laws of physics, etc., but the Sri Moola

> Vigrahas in Vaishnava Temples are an incarnation

> (archavatharam)of Lord Sriman Narayana. He is beyond

> these physical laws. Yes, for outsiders could analyze

> Him using physical laws, but we know that He has

> infinite power and infinite ways beyond the laws of

> physics. Let us not accumulate sin by discussing and

> attributing limited things to the limitless.

>

> Thanks

> Narender P. Reddy

>

>

>

> --- Sudarshan K Madabushi

> <mksudarshan2002 wrote:

> > Dear Bhagavatas:

> > As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be

> > helpful if some PramaaNams from our scriptures could

> > be cited in support of the scientific explanations.

> > Moderator

> >

>

============================================================================

===

> >

> >

> > , Maya Iyengar

> > <maya_s1717>

> > wrote:

> > > I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion

> > about this and

> > the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some

> > temples. What do

> > aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other

> > substances?

> > > Regards,

> > > Maya.

> >

> >

> > Dear member,

> >

> > The forwarded article is very interesting. If the

> > experiments

> > described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun

> > un-intended)

> > scientific justification for idolatry.

> >

> > But it also makes one wonder about another thing.

> >

> > If the granite inside the sanctum is so very

> > important -- in terms

> > of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity

> > etc. etc. -- then

> > perhaps the time has come for us to leave the

> > 'moolavar-vigraham-s'

> > in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more

> > overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of

> > "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery

> > of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)?

> > Surely, all the

> > heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as

> > in some of our

> > temples) must be negatively interfering with, why

> > even diminishing,

> > all the positive energy the granite is said to

> > generate?

> >

> > Can scientific-minded members please throw some

> > light?

> >

> > Thanks and regards,

> >

> > dAsan,

> > Sudarshan

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Vote for the stars of 's next ad campaign!

> http://advision.webevents.//votelifeengine/

>

>

>

>

>

> Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

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AdarNiya rAmaswAmI ji,

all i wanted to convey is that the word 'idolatry' implies worshipping an

idol, whereas we all know that when we offer flowers, chandan or dhUp to

the "idol" we are offering it to the lord, and not to the statue per se.

but the word 'idolatry' doesn't imply and hence has been used as a beating

stick against hinduism, reducing it to a superstitious following that

worships stones and "idols".

 

that is all wanted to convey, that we should use the word icon, statue or

even "mUrtI" rather than idol. we should all consciously avoid the word

'idol', whether it is in discussion groups or in temples where signs are

seen "please don't touch the idol" (at least in usa)

 

at no point i am suggesting that using the mUrtI as an aid to meditate upon

the lord is unapproved or not good.

 

regards,

shashi joshi

 

> Dear Bhagavatas:

> The sujbect has been dealt with in Chapter 10 "Descending God" in my book

> "Hinduism Rediscovered" and explains how we do not worship the image AS God

but God IN the image.

>

> The statement "simlarly idolatry is not something that even the shastras

> approve of" is not correct. The very concept of "archaavataara"

> confirmed by Azhwars and Acharyas prove that it has the sanction of our

Scriptures.

>

> Dasoham

> Anbil Ramaswamy

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reddy jI,

limited things have been attributed to the limiteless, the moment

we have a tmeple, mUrtI, ritual, name etc.

 

in one of the lectures late professor joseph campbell (who has

perhaps done the most to impart awareness about indian philosphy

in the west (particularly usa) says about kAlI stepping on shiva

as a symbol of going beyond the highest faith.

 

our god is our highest faith, and hence is also our limit. in other

religions, their only book is the limit. in sanAtan dharma, we have

many enlightened seers adding to the ocean of 'human discovery' of

the divine. our limit is not set!! as long as we have the shraddhA

bhAva, we should be open enough to discuss anything with respect

towards each other (and the divine)

 

so, i think discussion of the physical aspects of the temple, mUrtI

etc. should not be taken as an affront to our faith. after all,

someone did prescribe the protocl to setup a temple, using certain

material, ritual, etc. they must have had a reason beyond faith as

well. so if a member wants to be enlightened in that area, we should

let the discusison go on (of course the moderator(s) are the final

judge of it).

 

so, as long as the shraddhA bhAva is there, we should not feel our faith is

in danger! after all, every devotee is also unique :-)

 

regards,

shashi joshi

 

Sadagopan worked magic with the keyboard on Tue, Jul 20, 2004 at 05:54:58PM

-0400:

> Dr. Narender Reddy :

>

> Thanks for your suggestion to stay

> away from "attributing limited things

> to limitless ".

>

> Archai (Consecrated images are some thing

> unique . Like the Lord's AvathAra Rahsyams

> (Six points ) have to be understood properly

> so that we do not go astray , the power of

> Consecrated Moorthys at the temple have to be

> disengaged from the material in which the Lord

> has descended .

>

> Once we think of Ph and other things , we

> will be way out of track . There are however

> rigorous prescriptions for selection of the granite

> or metal or wood , which are known to the Sthapathis

> and Aagama experts.

>

> V.Sadagopan

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Priya Bhagawatas,

It is a big apachaaram (sin) to even to think (leave alone discussion) of

the physical constituents of moolavar of consecrated dieties. It amounts

to discussion regarding the flesh, blood, bones, skin, height, weight etc

w.r.t. our beloveds like father, mother, husband/wife, children, etc. Our

Moola archamurthys are the embodiments of the diety with all the

kalyanagunas like souseelya, soundarya, soukumarya, saugandhya, lavanya,

yauvana,

anaadi, veerya, teja etc etc as described in the Trigadyas of Bhagawad

Ramanuja.

 

Jai Srimannarayana

sarvaaparaadham kshantavyaha

Dr.Kilambi Ramakrishna Ramanuja Dasan

 

 

 

Maya Iyengar wrote:

 

> Dear Bhagavatas:

> Here is an enlightning article explaining the scientific basis of the Moola

Vigraham being in granite.

>

> Inputs on the subject based on our authoritative Scriptures are welcome.

>

> But, before posting, please make sure that they are not based on conjectures,

personal opinions and speculations.

> Dasoham

> Moderator

>

================================================================================\

===========================================================

> Dear Devotees,

>

> I am sending the information sent to me by a fellow devotee of this group

about some experiments done with reference to moolavar in granite. The following

quote is taken out from ‘Indian Express’ news item published on 31st December,

1981(or 82).

>

> This is about the HR and CE stall at the Tourist Trade Fair held at Chennai

then.

>

> ‘Teachers and students of Parasakthi College, Courtallam, through a set of

experiments using laboratory gadgets, make a scientific interpretation of the

chanting of slokas, abhisheka of the idol and offering of fruits and leaves.

"Temple worship has a definite scientific reasoning behind it", the assistant

professor in charge said.

>

> First it is explained how there is a proportionate configuration to the

sanctum sanctorum and the idol it houses – the sanctorum is structured in such a

way that the idol in it reflects any sound wave to the maximum effect.

>

> A tuning fork is vibrated in the hall with little sound reproduction, but when

it is struck and placed before the entrance of a small model sanctorum, a loud

hum is heard. The forks invariably produce a sound resembling the chant "OM".

>

> The lecturer explained that among the various chants, "OM" had the largest

resonant effect and displaced a sizeable amount of atmosphere inside the

sanctum. This is possible only when the sanctum and the idol are made of

granite.

>

> Next it is explained how the presence of negative ions increases in moist

condition rather in dry condition using a condenser to infer why the sanctum

sanctorum is always kept moist by pouring water over the idol and washing it

with water continuously. Similarly the conduction of the stone idol also

increases when it is moist – this is demonstrated by comparing the conductivity

of dry granite and that of a wet idol.

>

> The materials used for the abhisheka of the idol increases the conductivity of

the stone through their own pH values. pH value of a substance is the negative

concentration of the ion it possesses. Most of the materials used for abhisheka

– milk, curd, sandalpaste, turmeric powder, vermilion powder, vibuthi have high

pH values, a simple chemical experiment shows. And when they are pored over the

idol they increase the conductivity of the idol, also ionizing it.

>

> A resistance reading on the ohmmeter of the idol after these elements have

been poured shows the increased conductivity of the idol. The chanting of the

mantras and the more frequent "OM" sets the air column inside vibrating and the

highly sensitized idol conducts the ions of the abhisheka substance to the moist

atmosphere.

>

> The lighting of camphor during the deeparadhna displaces the air, which is

partially charged with ions, and the devotees inside the sanctum inhale these

ions. These negative ions have the physiological function of fixing oxygen with

hemoglobin in the blood, the lecturer explained. They are concentrated on beach

shores and mountaintops in the early morning, which explains doctor’s advice to

heart patients for early morning beach walks.

>

> In the final inference, it is explained, a devotee’s presence in the sanctum

during abhisheka helps his system induct more negative ions than he usually

inhales. A visit to the temple is a good substitute for morning walk, the

lecturer explained, and a tonic for good health.

>

> But with temples becoming overcrowded, it would not be a wonder if these

negative ions are submerged by the excessive carbon dioxide exhaled in the

packed sanctum which is meant to house only ten people at a time. Similarly the

chanting of "OM" has also been reduced to a mere inaudible mumble, affecting its

highly resonant quality."

>

> (end of the news report)

>

> I think this explains why the sanctum sanctorum is also in granite. The

non-use of

>

> electric lamps inside garbha griham and thaila-kaapu to moolavar seem to have

scientific relevance.

>

> I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and the reasons

for use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do aagamaas say about the

choice of granite and other substances?

>

> Regards,

>

> Maya.

>

>

>

>

> Mail - Now with 25x more storage than before!

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>

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Dear Sri Reddy,

 

While I certainly respect the view expressed -- that

one cannot always apply laws of physics to temple

iconography and worship -- I'm sorry I'm unable to see

the connection you seek to make between mere

discussion of the matter and "sin". It's a complete

'non sequitor', I should think. Mere mention of "sin"

or "apachAram" is enough to scare away all discussion

and exchange of views even when sparked (as in this

case) by academic curiosity on the part of members and

their need to learn from each other through our forum.

 

 

Don't you agree, Sir, it would be far better to just

objectively state the case, either for or against, a

particular issue (by quoting "pramANam", references,

expert reports etc) and leave the members to make

their own judgment? Why frighten participants with

'sin' and holy retribution when all they are seeking

is ordinary answers to ordinary questions?

 

Yours respectfully,

 

dAsan,

Sudarshan

 

--- Sadagopan <sgopan wrote: > Dr.

Narender Reddy :

>

> Thanks for your suggestion to stay

> away from "attributing limited things

> to limitless ".

>

> Archai (Consecrated images are some thing

> unique . Like the Lord's AvathAra Rahsyams

> (Six points ) have to be understood properly

> so that we do not go astray , the power of

> Consecrated Moorthys at the temple have to be

> disengaged from the material in which the Lord

> has descended .

>

> It has been said that the Cow possessing

> milk in all its limbs releases the nourishing

> milk thru its udders only . So does the consecrated

> Moorthys release BhagavAn's saannidhyam

> and KaaruNyam to those who seek refuge

> thru the Moola and Uthsava BhErams created

> by Rishis (Aarsham ) , the Lord (Svyam Vyaktham ),

> humans (Maabusham ) and DEvAs for worship -

> The SaaLagrama Moola BhErams as at SrIrangam ,

> ThiruveLLUr are yet another unique forms ,

> where the SaaLagramams themselves are

> pervaded by SrIman NaarAyaNan .

>

> Once we think of Ph and other things , we

> will be way out of track . There are however

> rigorous prescriptions for selection of the granite

> or metal or wood , which are known to the Sthapathis

> and Aagama experts.

>

> V.Sadagopan

> -

> "Narender Reddy" <reddynp

> "Sudarshan K Madabushi"

> <mksudarshan2002;

> <>

> Tuesday, July 20, 2004 5:13 PM

> Re: Re: Moolavar

>

>

> > Jai Sriman Narayana!

> >

> > The moolavars in other temples may be an idol

> sujected

> > to the laws of physics, etc., but the Sri Moola

> > Vigrahas in Vaishnava Temples are an incarnation

> > (archavatharam)of Lord Sriman Narayana. He is

> beyond

> > these physical laws. Yes, for outsiders could

> analyze

> > Him using physical laws, but we know that He has

> > infinite power and infinite ways beyond the laws

> of

> > physics. Let us not accumulate sin by discussing

> and

> > attributing limited things to the limitless.

> >

> > Thanks

> > Narender P. Reddy

> >

> >

> >

> > --- Sudarshan K Madabushi

> > <mksudarshan2002 wrote:

> > > Dear Bhagavatas:

> > > As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be

> > > helpful if some PramaaNams from our scriptures

> could

> > > be cited in support of the scientific

> explanations.

> > > Moderator

> > >

> >

>

============================================================================

> ===

> > >

> > >

> > > , Maya Iyengar

> > > <maya_s1717>

> > > wrote:

> > > > I wish to hear from fellow devotees their

> opinion

> > > about this and

> > > the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in

> some

> > > temples. What do

> > > aagamaas say about the choice of granite and

> other

> > > substances?

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Maya.

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear member,

> > >

> > > The forwarded article is very interesting. If

> the

> > > experiments

> > > described are true, we now have at hand a sound

> (pun

> > > un-intended)

> > > scientific justification for idolatry.

> > >

> > > But it also makes one wonder about another

> thing.

> > >

> > > If the granite inside the sanctum is so very

> > > important -- in terms

> > > of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic'

> conductivity

> > > etc. etc. -- then

> > > perhaps the time has come for us to leave the

> > > 'moolavar-vigraham-s'

> > > in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more

> > > overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of

> > > "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery

> > > of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)?

> > > Surely, all the

> > > heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot

> as

> > > in some of our

> > > temples) must be negatively interfering with,

> why

> > > even diminishing,

> > > all the positive energy the granite is said to

> > > generate?

> > >

> > > Can scientific-minded members please throw some

> > > light?

> > >

> > > Thanks and regards,

> > >

> > > dAsan,

> > > Sudarshan

 

 

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Sreemathe Ramanujaya Namaha:

Absolutely right. The Lord Emperuman Narayanan cannot be bound by the

physical laws however deep they may be. He is beyond mere physical

verification in any form. He revals Himself by His Grace alone. The essence

of Vedas is this alone.

Jai Sriman Narayana,

Adiyen,

Ramanuja Dasan

 

 

>Narender Reddy <reddynp

>Sudarshan K Madabushi <mksudarshan2002,

>

>Re: Re: Moolavar

>Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:13:16 -0700 (PDT)

>

>Jai Sriman Narayana!

>

>The moolavars in other temples may be an idol sujected

>to the laws of physics, etc., but the Sri Moola

>Vigrahas in Vaishnava Temples are an incarnation

>(archavatharam)of Lord Sriman Narayana. He is beyond

>these physical laws. Yes, for outsiders could analyze

>Him using physical laws, but we know that He has

>infinite power and infinite ways beyond the laws of

>physics. Let us not accumulate sin by discussing and

>attributing limited things to the limitless.

>

>Thanks

>Narender P. Reddy

>

>

>

 

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Dear Bhagawatas:

 

Please forgive me and ignore the following if my view

is wrong, I don’t want to hurt anyone. Please take it

as view of some one.

 

This is my comment or view in response to the

enlightening article on Moolavar.

 

Please forgive me for the way of writing…

 

There is no need of science, when you listen to music,

when you kiss your child or sitting in a rose garden

and enjoying the beauty of the rose. Certainly we

don’t have to bring science here.

 

A group of scientist liked the music and they want to

see the music, and had to dissect the music

instrument, musician body and as usual the scientists

beautifully described their discovery: our study

indicates that wood, metal string, skin, bone flesh

and blood are the components of music. The physical

dimensions of all the components are given in Table 1,

in case of all the biological material taken from the

musician DNA sequence information to all possible

scientific analysis is done and summarized in Table 2.

 

 

The result presented in this study demonstrates that

in music formation, human tissues and remaining does

not contribute to music formation investigated to any

greater extent. However our results might not reflect

the actual music configurations in vivo a detail study

required in order to see the actual music.

 

Similarly to see the beauty of a Rose the Rose needs

to be dissected and all the dimensions, origins, DNA,

RNA, extraction analysis of individual components of

Rose may be found as written in any botanical

encyclopedia but you will eventually loose the beauty

of the flower you have to kill the rose to learn its

science, you have to destroy or kill the musician or

instrument to learn how the music is formed.

 

The best thing ever said about a Rose is,

A Rose is a rose is rose…

Please don’t say anything more than that then it is

absolutely not the rose it is about the rose family,

property, chemical structure of the active ingredients

and so on...

 

Please note Moolavar is also made in various materials

where they don’t perform thriumanjanam (no water is

put) and it is not made by granite or any kind of

stone it is mixture of various materials such as

kadukai, I don’t want to say or remember and no need

to know also.

 

Moolvar is there in totality just enjoy the beauty of

Moolavar and perform what you have been asked to

perform or follow the procedures followed by the

saints. Scientific knowledge is absolutely required

in many areas, and not required in some fields.

There are 1000000000 topics could be found to do

scientific research but one must select the relevant

to help the society, there is no need to do research

on topics such as chicken came first or egg came first

? my answer is god came first.

Both are there just enjoy the beauty without

disturbing them, absolutely not necessary to do

research on such topics

 

By trying to measure the constituents of moolavar you

and trying to give some scientific explanation for

what you find and we will not see the god and we will

not see the music and we will not find beauty of the

rose. Similarly when you kiss your child just kiss

don’t bring science here, the scientist will tell you

so many germs you will transmit and infect the child

and so on… not necessary to do research on this topic

just kiss and enjoy, just enjoy the Moolavar dharsan.

 

There is no need of pH meters, mass spectrometers,

X-ray and crystallographic studies required in

deities.

 

My sincere apologize if I hurt any one’s feelings are

thoughts.

 

Today when I was performing the Adi Pooram Poojai at

home “ my 5 year old son Vaisnav asked me what is so

special today?

 

I told him today is the birthday of this goddess, he

replied me oh cool, how old is she??? And I had no

answer and blanked out for a minute, then told him she

is as old as the earth.

 

Sri Andal Thiruvadigaley Saranam.

 

Gajaraj

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Dear Bhagawatas:

 

Please forgive me and ignore the following if my view

is wrong, I don’t want to hurt anyone. Please take it

as view of some one.

 

This is my comment or view in response to the

enlightening article on Moolavar.

 

Please forgive me for the way of writing…

 

There is no need of science, when you listen to music,

when you kiss your child or sitting in a rose garden

and enjoying the beauty of the rose. Certainly we

don’t have to bring science here.

 

A group of scientist liked the music and they want to

see the music, and had to dissect the music

instrument, musician body and as usual the scientists

beautifully described their discovery: our study

indicates that wood, metal string, skin, bone flesh

and blood are the components of music. The physical

dimensions of all the components are given in Table 1,

in case of all the biological material taken from the

musician DNA sequence information to all possible

scientific analysis is done and summarized in Table 2.

 

 

The result presented in this study demonstrates that

in music formation, human tissues and remaining does

not contribute to music formation investigated to any

greater extent. However our results might not reflect

the actual music configurations in vivo a detail study

required in order to see the actual music.

 

Similarly to see the beauty of a Rose the Rose needs

to be dissected and all the dimensions, origins, DNA,

RNA, extraction analysis of individual components of

Rose may be found as written in any botanical

encyclopedia but you will eventually loose the beauty

of the flower you have to kill the rose to learn its

science, you have to destroy or kill the musician or

instrument to learn how the music is formed.

 

The best thing ever said about a Rose is,

A Rose is a rose is rose…

Please don’t say anything more than that then it is

absolutely not the rose it is about the rose family,

property, chemical structure of the active ingredients

and so on...

 

Please note Moolavar is also made in various materials

where they don’t perform thriumanjanam (no water is

put) and it is not made by granite or any kind of

stone it is mixture of various materials such as

kadukai, I don’t want to say or remember and no need

to know also.

 

Moolvar is there in totality just enjoy the beauty of

Moolavar and perform what you have been asked to

perform or follow the procedures followed by the

saints. Scientific knowledge is absolutely required

in many areas, and not required in some fields.

There are 1000000000 topics could be found to do

scientific research but one must select the relevant

to help the society, there is no need to do research

on topics such as chicken came first or egg came first

? my answer is god came first.

Both are there just enjoy the beauty without

disturbing them, absolutely not necessary to do

research on such topics

 

By trying to measure the constituents of moolavar you

and trying to give some scientific explanation for

what you find and we will not see the god and we will

not see the music and we will not find beauty of the

rose. Similarly when you kiss your child just kiss

don’t bring science here, the scientist will tell you

so many germs you will transmit and infect the child

and so on… not necessary to do research on this topic

just kiss and enjoy, just enjoy the Moolavar dharsan.

 

There is no need of pH meters, mass spectrometers,

X-ray and crystallographic studies required in

deities.

 

My sincere apologize if I hurt any one’s feelings are

thoughts.

 

Today when I was performing the Adi Pooram Poojai at

home “ my 5 year old son Vaisnav asked me what is so

special today?

 

I told him today is the birthday of this goddess, he

replied me oh cool, how old is she??? And I had no

answer and blanked out for a minute, then told him she

is as old as the earth.

 

Sri Andal Thiruvadigaley Saranam.

 

Gajaraj

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Dear Sri Lakshmi Narasimhan:

I was restraining myself from expressing my adverse criticism of the false

"scientific claim" on this subject. I am glad that you came out strong with

your views to fuel my response. It is laughable that some people fabricated

weird experiments to reach these conclusions that do not even merit scientific

scrutiny. Words thrown away loose as

alkaline pH, ions, oxygen fixation in hemoglobin and evoking laws of Physics

and acoustics as support are hollow and meaningless that do not belong to the

Class of .

 

Further, I would echo the sentiments of eminent scholars like Sriman Ramanuja

Varadha Srinivasa Thatta, Narander Reddy, Sadagopan and others who have

explained this subject elegantly in this journal. I would also reiterate that

usage of English term

Idolatry is profanity that should be dismissed in our usage to denote Hindu

methods of worship. The principle behind Archa moorthy and Vigraha aradhana in

our religion has no English equivalent, but I can tolerate the term iconic to

denote our form of worship.

All religions are full of symbolism in their practice whether it is Judaism,

Islam, Christianity, Buddhism etc. We are no different in our approach to

envision God whose form is limitless and nondescript in images of Avataram

revealed to us by Him.

 

Adiyen

Srinivasa Raghavan

 

 

narsimhan csl <cslnarsimhan wrote:

 

 

 

Dear Sudarshan swamy,

 

Following is the text of my response to the originator & also to Srirangasri. I

hope it is posted soon.

 

Best regards

 

Lakshmi Narasimha dasan

 

Dear swamies,

 

This article is nothing but a 'super scientific facntasy'. These are dangerous

extrapolations of science & will stand no scientific test.

 

E.g., extrapolating this one would be lead to the suggestion that strong acids,

such as sulfuric or other, being extremely ionic if they are poured on the

granite material the effect would be even pronounced than the weakly acidic

substances that are talked about. The effect on haemoglobin will be even better

& so on... No one, sane & scientific will ever agree to these kind of arguments.

 

I would request the bhagavatha community to not to indulge in trying to give a

scientific reasoning to religious aspects. Let us leave it to lord. U know, he

has the powers to create new laws of science. E.g. floating of stone in water in

Ramayana. So, the existing laws of science just end in him.

 

To answer the querry, traditionally the vigrahams were carved from special stone

which does not contain materials with 'rajasa' and 'thamasa' characters. Only

black salagrama stone, which is personification of the Lord himself is to be

used for this. It is not granite please.!!. Only the Salagrama stone is

religiously acceptable for creating Lord's images. Later, accepting peoples

desire of portability for utsavams, Lord has accepted Panchaloha vigrahams to be

his abode.

 

I will stop here & leave u to reflect.

 

sajjana padapadma parama renuhu

 

Lakshmi Narasimha dasan

 

 

 

Sudarshan K Madabushi wrote: Dear Bhagavatas:

As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be helpful if some PramaaNams from

our scriptures could be cited in support of the scientific explanations.

Moderator

===============================================================================

 

 

, Maya Iyengar

wrote:

> I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and

the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do

aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other substances?

> Regards,

> Maya.

 

 

Dear member,

 

The forwarded article is very interesting. If the experiments

described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun un-intended)

scientific justification for idolatry.

 

But it also makes one wonder about another thing.

 

If the granite inside the sanctum is so very important -- in terms

of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity etc. etc. -- then

perhaps the time has come for us to leave the 'moolavar-vigraham-s'

in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more

overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery

of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)? Surely, all the

heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as in some of our

temples) must be negatively interfering with, why even diminishing,

all the positive energy the granite is said to generate?

 

Can scientific-minded members please throw some light?

 

Thanks and regards,

 

dAsan,

Sudarshan

 

 

 

 

 

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--- shashi <shashi wrote:

> dear all,

.. since then one sees the lord everywhere! the

> external symbols are useless to that elevated soul

>who is beyond mAyA.

 

The Sri Vigraha or the Archa Moorthy is not a symbol

but an incarnation of Lord Sriman Narayana.

 

> the vedas don't even have the pUjA in the way

>rituals have developed later on in the purAnic era.

 

In Sri Vaishnavas, we donot have rituals, we perform

Aradhanam or loving service (kainakryam) performed tro

the Lord. The word ritual denotes mechanical

performance, where as we perform loving service to

Lord Sriman Narayana. While ritual is like work,

loving service is not. The mother dressing her baby

does not consider a ritual or wok.

 

Yes, Aradhanam has been existing from time immemorial.

Bimba Arashanam has been discussed in Vedas.

 

> that said, what is so objectionable if a devotee in

> the realm of

> mAyA wants to comprehend the mAyA as per one's

> capacity. after all,

> the 'material' aspects of the lord has to dealt with

> by someone,

> since someone has to make the temple, choose the

> material, the divine form in certain way (reclining,

> standing,with chakra etc.)

 

We do not need to invent any new forms. The Agama

Sastras (Pancharathra and Vaikanasa) are the

instructions of Lord Sriman Narayana, and prescribe

the way the bimba moorthy has to be made, and

conscreted. Agmas have been reveled by Lord Sriman

Narayana Himself. For example, the PancharAthra Agma

has been revealed by Lord Sriman Narayana to Bramha

Deva in five nights and therefore, it is claled

pancha rAthra Agama.

 

 

>so someone has to attribute the limited to the

> limitless.

 

As revealed in Srimath Bagavad Githa, if you assume

that He (Archa Moorthy) is limited, He will display

only very limited power and grant us only limted

knowledge.

 

> instead of closing the discusison even before it

> starts, it would

> do much service if the learned direct it properly,

> rather than

> shutting it off with words of 'sin' and 'outsiders'

> and 'beyond

> laws'. even the lord is bound by the laws of karma!

> he could not

> save jaya and vijaya from the curse of sanatkumar,

> who then ended

> up as the three most evil pairs -

> hiraNyakashyapa/hiraNyAksha,

> rAvaNa/kumbhakaraNa, etc.

 

Lord Sriman Narayana is not bound by karma. In Srimath

Bhagavtham, it is very clear that He only has decided

on the punishment to Jaya and Vijaya as they out of

ahankara once tried to obstruct Sri lakshmi Devi to

approach Him. If you are interested I can quote the

shloka.

 

> whatever mAyA he creates, has its own laws, which we

> are all trying

> to study in the field of sciences. if the lord has

> different laws

> of physics, the people with questions are simply

> saying, does anyone

> know them, can they be told as well, is there any

> scientific basis

 

Your scintiifc laws can not even predict events in the

future. The tools of science can detect only the

parameters (based on indriyas such as pressure, force,

temperature, chemical species (smell and taste),

elctrical currents (nerve inputs), direction, motion,

velocity and acceleratio etc). Our Purnas say that He

is beyond the indriyas.

 

Those who do not beleive in the puranas are therefore

definitely called outsiders.

 

The real scientific basis would be to first practice

(experiment)what is told in the purnas and observe if

that is correct. For that you should have the correct

knowledge (interpretation of Sadacharya).

 

> even the discussion in the shAstra, the symbolism in

> rAmAyaNa and

> other epics and purANa are powerful application of

> the science of

> psychology, sociology and spirituality applied in

> the unique indian

> way. never has the lord worked in irrational ways,

> or unreasonably.

> if there is reason to his actions, there is method

> of his functioning.

 

Puranas reveal that His actions and functioning are

divyam and therfore can not be understood by men.

 

> while there are different levels of mental capacity

> and spiritual

> progress, and not all discussions of jnAna are for

> the followers

> of bhakti, it would be so much more appropriate if

> it was said,

> 'this discussion is beyond the scope of the bhakti

> oriented group.

 

For your kind information, puranas reveal that

Knowledge (gnyana) and renounciation (Vairagya) are

the angas (organs) of bhakthi. As revealed by puranas,

real knowldge leads to saranagathi or bhakthi

 

> i hope i have not offended too many people! i am a

> silent listener

> most of the time anyways. so try not to be upset for

> too long :-)

>

> thanks,

> shashi joshi

>

 

Jai Sriman Narayana!

Narender Reddy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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--- "Dr.Gajaraj" <gajarajk wrote: > Dear

Bhagawatas:

> There is no need of science, when you listen to

> music,> when you kiss your child or sitting in a

rose garden> and enjoying the beauty of the rose.

Certainly we> don’t have to bring science here.

>

 

 

Dear Dr Gajaraj,

 

Well said!

 

Rgds,

dAsan,

 

Sudarshan

 

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Dear Srinivasa Raghavan swamy,

 

Thanks for this nice views. These are important for people who want to

understand our religion more.

 

I would request sri Anbil swamy , the moderator of SRS site to not allow such

dangerous mails for posting because these some times can have misleading and

dangerous impact on some of the readers.

 

I agree with u too that Idol worship or iconoclasm are rather lose terms and, as

u said, have limited connotations and do not really describe our cult as such.

We r living with these expressions or words so to say.

 

sajjana pada padma paramanuhu

 

Lakshmi Narasimha dasan

 

 

 

 

 

Srini Raghavan <sraghav wrote: Dear Sri Lakshmi Narasimhan:

I was restraining myself from expressing my adverse criticism of the false

"scientific claim" on this subject. I am glad that you came out strong with

your views to fuel my response. It is laughable that some people fabricated

weird experiments to reach these conclusions that do not even merit scientific

scrutiny. Words thrown away loose as

alkaline pH, ions, oxygen fixation in hemoglobin and evoking laws of Physics

and acoustics as support are hollow and meaningless that do not belong to the

Class of .

 

Further, I would echo the sentiments of eminent scholars like Sriman Ramanuja

Varadha Srinivasa Thatta, Narander Reddy, Sadagopan and others who have

explained this subject elegantly in this journal. I would also reiterate that

usage of English term

Idolatry is profanity that should be dismissed in our usage to denote Hindu

methods of worship. The principle behind Archa moorthy and Vigraha aradhana in

our religion has no English equivalent, but I can tolerate the term iconoclastic

to denote our form of worship.

All religions are full of symbolism in their practice whether it is Judaism,

Islam, Christianity, Buddhism etc. We are no different in our approach to

envision God whose form is limitless and nondescript in images of Avataram

revealed to us by Him.

 

Adiyen

Srinivasa Raghavan

 

 

narsimhan csl <cslnarsimhan wrote:

 

 

 

Dear Sudarshan swamy,

 

Following is the text of my response to the originator & also to Srirangasri. I

hope it is posted soon.

 

Best regards

 

Lakshmi Narasimha dasan

 

Dear swamies,

 

This article is nothing but a 'super scientific facntasy'. These are dangerous

extrapolations of science & will stand no scientific test.

 

E.g., extrapolating this one would be lead to the suggestion that strong acids,

such as sulfuric or other, being extremely ionic if they are poured on the

granite material the effect would be even pronounced than the weakly acidic

substances that are talked about. The effect on haemoglobin will be even better

& so on... No one, sane & scientific will ever agree to these kind of arguments.

 

I would request the bhagavatha community to not to indulge in trying to give a

scientific reasoning to religious aspects. Let us leave it to lord. U know, he

has the powers to create new laws of science. E.g. floating of stone in water in

Ramayana. So, the existing laws of science just end in him.

 

To answer the querry, traditionally the vigrahams were carved from special stone

which does not contain materials with 'rajasa' and 'thamasa' characters. Only

black salagrama stone, which is personification of the Lord himself is to be

used for this. It is not granite please.!!. Only the Salagrama stone is

religiously acceptable for creating Lord's images. Later, accepting peoples

desire of portability for utsavams, Lord has accepted Panchaloha vigrahams to be

his abode.

 

I will stop here & leave u to reflect.

 

sajjana padapadma parama renuhu

 

Lakshmi Narasimha dasan

 

 

 

Sudarshan K Madabushi wrote: Dear Bhagavatas:

As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be helpful if some PramaaNams from

our scriptures could be cited in support of the scientific explanations.

Moderator

===============================================================================

 

 

, Maya Iyengar

wrote:

> I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and

the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do

aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other substances?

> Regards,

> Maya.

 

 

Dear member,

 

The forwarded article is very interesting. If the experiments

described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun un-intended)

scientific justification for idolatry.

 

But it also makes one wonder about another thing.

 

If the granite inside the sanctum is so very important -- in terms

of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity etc. etc. -- then

perhaps the time has come for us to leave the 'moolavar-vigraham-s'

in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more

overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery

of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)? Surely, all the

heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as in some of our

temples) must be negatively interfering with, why even diminishing,

all the positive energy the granite is said to generate?

 

Can scientific-minded members please throw some light?

 

Thanks and regards,

 

dAsan,

Sudarshan

 

 

 

 

 

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--- "Dr.Gajaraj" <gajarajk wrote: > Dear

Bhagawatas:

> There is no need of science, when you listen to

> music,> when you kiss your child or sitting in a

rose garden> and enjoying the beauty of the rose.

Certainly we> don’t have to bring science here.

>

 

 

Dear Dr Gajaraj,

 

Well said!

 

Rgds,

dAsan,

 

Sudarshan

 

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Sreemathe Ramanujaya Namaha:

If you think the Vigraham is only a symbol the go ahead and do all kinds of

experiments. But we are not supposed to think that the Vigraham is the

symbolic representation of Emperuman.

Also Maya does not mean a phenomenon which also obeys a set of laws which

are verifiable. It means by definition the inconceivable power of the Lord.

If it obeys a set of laws then, it is known only to the Lord. It cannot be

verified by any other soul.

If in Particle Physics there is a limitation like the Heisenberg's

Uncertainty Principle inbuilt in the physical way we try to enquire into

matter and materiel phenomena, then the nature of soul, super soul and Maya

cannot be inquired into, using physical tools. These tools are totally

anadequate.

Vigraha Aradhanam is not mere physical exercise; it is a mental and supra

mental effort by the soul to crave and seek the Grace of the Lord.

I draw attention here to the article writtten by Sriman M.K Sudersan about

the souls being Stree by nature. Sthreetwam is attributed to souls not in

physical manner. By nature they are totally dependent on Paramathma for

everything and hence the sthreethwam. If we cannot know the gender of a

foetus up till the 3rd month of pregnency, it does not mean it is sthree in

nature. The mere absence or non-formation of organs of reproduction, does

not mean that the foetus is feminine in nature. It can be argued that it is

neither masculine, nor feminine. (On another plane "Na Puman, Nasthree,

Nashandobo" is how the Paramathman is described in the Upanishads). The DNA

code is alive and working all the time and the gender is predetermined at

the very first moment of the foetal formation. Maybe even before as the

Hindu Philosophy says.

If we cannot even understand fully the Trigunathmaka Prakriti which follows

a set of laws laid by the creator (which He Himself sometimes obeys when He

is present as a person) using the same set of laws, how can we enquire into

the nature of the Lord who is inconceivable according to our Vedas (and His

powers).

Adiiyen,

Ramanuja Dasan.

 

 

>shashi

>, Oppiliappan

>CC: Sudarshan K Madabushi <mksudarshan2002, Narender Reddy

><reddynp, Sgt <saranagathi>

>Re: Re: Moolavar

>Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:48:08 -0400

>

>reddy jI,

>limited things have been attributed to the limiteless, the moment

>we have a tmeple, mUrtI, ritual, name etc.

>

>in one of the lectures late professor joseph campbell (who has

>perhaps done the most to impart awareness about indian philosphy

>in the west (particularly usa) says about kAlI stepping on shiva

>as a symbol of going beyond the highest faith.

>

>

 

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Dear SrImathi Maya Iyengar:

 

Please do not be hurt over the exchanges relating to

your mail on your impassioned plea for using the tools

of science in an effort to comprehend the intricacies of

ArchA Moorthy ( Consecrated Forms , where the Lord

resides for accepting our AarAdhanam).

 

I am a scientist by training and have a Doctor's degree

from the top most Scientific& Engineering University ,

Massachusetts Institue Of Technology (MIT) . Many

Members of the list are Medical Doctors and Technical

Professionals . All of us have high regard to Science

and its tools to open up new frontiers for saving lives

and reduce suffering and to travel to far off planets and

their Moons .

 

Many of us , call ourselves rationalists or traditonalists do

not believe Science as a tool can be of much help

in spiritual matters. Faith takes over , where Science

is unable to help . There is no irreconceilable conflict

between science and Religion (Knowledge and belief ).

They are not irreconceilable antagonists as stated by

Einstein . He says further: " A religious person is devout in

the sense that he or she has no doubt about the significance

and loftiness of specific super-personal objects and goals ,

which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation "

( in a scientific sense) .

 

The devout are steeped in Mahaa Viswasam about the Lord's

rakshakathvam and are like children crossing a road holding

firmly the hands of its Father . They have implicit and total faith

in the protective capability of the Lord(Father) and are not looking for

a rational explanation to convince themselves as to why and how

the Lord is their protector (Rakshakan ). After many births ,

they hold on to the Lord's sacred feet and recognize that

they have no recourse except the Lord and the Lord does

not dare to shake the firm grip of the devout . These feeling

states are beyond analysis by scientific methods or tools.

That is the way it is !

 

This is not to say that the role of Science in Vedic way of

life is minimal or nonexistent . The VedAs and Upanishads

accept and celebrate the Lord as the source of all knowledge.

Inspired by the Vedic Texts , the Rishis of Vedic age " developed

their positive sciences and made the world worth while to live in

with comforts and purposefulness". The rotations and revolutions

of earth , planets and Sun (astronomy ) were developed

by the likes of Aryabhatta et al. The concept of Zero( Kham),

the reciprocal of Infinity and Mathematical Infinity were developed

form here ." Besides Mathematical infinity , God Himself was

recognized as the Infinite Unity ".

 

The Science of Vedic geometry arose from Vedic Rishis . There are

references to all kinds of mechanical systems in VedAs (Mechanical

Engineering) . The healing powers of herbs against specific

diseases ( the science of Pharmacology ) has been recorded

in Atharva Vedam in great detail. The dangers of Tuberclosis

and its cure has been covered in several hymns of Atarva Vedam .

The world of herbs (Botany ) and animals ( Zoology) are covered

again in VedAs . One can go on and on about physical sciences .

But the Vedic rishis had some thing beyond the physical sciences

and developed AdhyAthmika Saasthrams dealing with the metaphysical

tatthvams of the indissoluble kinship between the Lord of the Universe

and the Jeevans , which are both co-eternal.

 

Science ravels along and soon is confounded by its own

limits . We travel with science and come to the stage , where

we seek more answers and insights that Science can not give.

Our sights are lifted , our hearts are thrilled and we bask under

the warmth of the wisdom of the Rg Vedic manthram ( X. 121.5):

 

" By Him , the heavens are strong and the earth is steadfast ;

by HIm light's realm and sky-vault are supported ; By Him the regions

in the mid-air are measured . To that Lord alone , May we offer

our adoration " . The concept of ananya gathithvam , Aakinchnyam ,

SaraNAgathy arose from such insights .

 

If the physical Scientists are blessed to have the initiation into the AdhyAthmic

Science under the tutelage of a SadAchAryan , they are doubly gifted indeed .

One does not need however to be trained in Scientific disciplines

to derive the full benefit of AdhyAthmic Science .

 

Just Some Thoughts in passing !

 

NamO NaarAyaNAya ,

V.Sadagopan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Maya Iyengar

sarathys (AT) comcast (DOT) net ; jayasartn ;

kdevanathan (AT) hotmail (DOT) com ; mksudarshan2002 (AT) (DOT) co.in ; Vijaya

Raghavan ; s.ramachandran (AT) hdfcbank (DOT) com ; Sadagopan ; ramachandran

soundararajan ;

Friday, July 23, 2004 5:17 AM

Fwd: Moolavar

Dear devotees,

I was shocked beyond belief to see the responses to the report quoted

from Indian express on moolavar and the complete black-out of the

mail I sent as a sequel to . When I came to know that

relevance has been attached to the shila roopam, the materials used

for abhishekam etc, I was over-awed how every aspect in our tradition

has evolved with such rich meaning. With this thought when I look

around it is that "Kaangindra porulellam yaane ennum….". As I look

into my Human physiology book, every aspect tallies with the

upanishad statement that this body of ours is the shareeram for

brahman and it is he who controls it as the sarathy. The descent of

11 out of 12 cranial nerves upto heart (only) and the remaining one

coming to the stomach looks like Vishnu as Vaiswanara pervading the

body through the food he cooks in the stomach. Every system inside

the body as a part and the control by brain as a whole (I am leaving

out details of connectivity here because I am yet to come to grips

with the fact that people here do not want one to think) is an

amazing aspect of Brahman ‘happening’ from macro to micro level.

There is wonderful symmetry at all levels of creation, only that the

human brain limited by hypocrisy and dogmas refuse to fall in line.

It seems God has tough time dealing with us only - to goad to make us

see reason and realise him. When a writer (writing on the moolavar)

tells his little son that Thiruvaadi pporam was the birth day of

‘Goddess’ and that her age is as old as that of earth, no one would

correct it. Because that would be apacharam (according to the members

of the group).. But that he lost a wonderful chance to tell his son

the story of Andal (who would have denounced any reference to herself

as goddess) and the easy way to explain the road to spirituality by

means of her story is not at all realised. Going by this kind of

attitude, I very well understand how and why our sacred knowledge of

the past had undergone so much mutilation over generations. For the

bhktas of today, bhakti is a means to get this or that result

including moksham. But I don’t think our texts ascribed to this view.

They said if you expect some return for bhakti from Perumal then it is

tantamount to a wife expecting ‘kooli’ from her husband for the

happiness he had given her. On the other hand we find texts telling

us to meditate upon him through knowledge (which I find through

science and logic too) which in essence is bhakti which is para

bhakti leading to him. When you do upasana on him through vigyana,

you see him as vigyana mayan. Can any one challenge this? Then why

this fear about science?

I told my parents my fear and doubt whether it is impossible to find

one belonging to our fold who understands or is desirous of

understanding god through bhakti as well as knowledge from science.

At least are there people who realise that knowledge that leads to

bhakti has been regarded by seers like Ramanujacharya as a way of

Brahmo-upasana, which Ramanujachrya himeself followed? They said they

too had not seen (so far) both to co-exist. Perhaps it is Narayana

alone who can understand me. So keep chanting " Sriranganatha,

mamanatha, namosthuthe", they said.

It is with much pain that I decide to come out of the group which in

my opinion has touched only the tip of the burg as far as promoting

and sustaining the essence of Vedic knowledge is concerned but can

not help the devotee to keep an open and fresh mind as to allow "all

noble thoughts come to them from all sides".

Regards,

Maya.Note: forwarded message attached.

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Dear SrImathi Maya Iyengar:

 

Please do not be hurt over the exchanges relating to

your mail on your impassioned plea for using the tools

of science in an effort to comprehend the intricacies of

ArchA Moorthy ( Consecrated Forms , where the Lord

resides for accepting our AarAdhanam).

 

I am a scientist by training and have a Doctor's degree

from the top most Scientific& Engineering University ,

Massachusetts Institue Of Technology (MIT) . Many

Members of the list are Medical Doctors and Technical

Professionals . All of us have high regard to Science

and its tools to open up new frontiers for saving lives

and reduce suffering and to travel to far off planets and

their Moons .

 

Many of us , call ourselves rationalists or traditonalists do

not believe Science as a tool can be of much help

in spiritual matters. Faith takes over , where Science

is unable to help . There is no irreconceilable conflict

between science and Religion (Knowledge and belief ).

They are not irreconceilable antagonists as stated by

Einstein . He says further: " A religious person is devout in

the sense that he or she has no doubt about the significance

and loftiness of specific super-personal objects and goals ,

which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation "

( in a scientific sense) .

 

The devout are steeped in Mahaa Viswasam about the Lord's

rakshakathvam and are like children crossing a road holding

firmly the hands of its Father . They have implicit and total faith

in the protective capability of the Lord(Father) and are not looking for

a rational explanation to convince themselves as to why and how

the Lord is their protector (Rakshakan ). After many births ,

they hold on to the Lord's sacred feet and recognize that

they have no recourse except the Lord and the Lord does

not dare to shake the firm grip of the devout . These feeling

states are beyond analysis by scientific methods or tools.

That is the way it is !

 

This is not to say that the role of Science in Vedic way of

life is minimal or nonexistent . The VedAs and Upanishads

accept and celebrate the Lord as the source of all knowledge.

Inspired by the Vedic Texts , the Rishis of Vedic age " developed

their positive sciences and made the world worth while to live in

with comforts and purposefulness". The rotations and revolutions

of earth , planets and Sun (astronomy ) were developed

by the likes of Aryabhatta et al. The concept of Zero( Kham),

the reciprocal of Infinity and Mathematical Infinity were developed

form here ." Besides Mathematical infinity , God Himself was

recognized as the Infinite Unity ".

 

The Science of Vedic geometry arose from Vedic Rishis . There are

references to all kinds of mechanical systems in VedAs (Mechanical

Engineering) . The healing powers of herbs against specific

diseases ( the science of Pharmacology ) has been recorded

in Atharva Vedam in great detail. The dangers of Tuberclosis

and its cure has been covered in several hymns of Atarva Vedam .

The world of herbs (Botany ) and animals ( Zoology) are covered

again in VedAs . One can go on and on about physical sciences .

But the Vedic rishis had some thing beyond the physical sciences

and developed AdhyAthmika Saasthrams dealing with the metaphysical

tatthvams of the indissoluble kinship between the Lord of the Universe

and the Jeevans , which are both co-eternal.

 

Science ravels along and soon is confounded by its own

limits . We travel with science and come to the stage , where

we seek more answers and insights that Science can not give.

Our sights are lifted , our hearts are thrilled and we bask under

the warmth of the wisdom of the Rg Vedic manthram ( X. 121.5):

 

" By Him , the heavens are strong and the earth is steadfast ;

by HIm light's realm and sky-vault are supported ; By Him the regions

in the mid-air are measured . To that Lord alone , May we offer

our adoration " . The concept of ananya gathithvam , Aakinchnyam ,

SaraNAgathy arose from such insights .

 

If the physical Scientists are blessed to have the initiation into the

AdhyAthmic

Science under the tutelage of a SadAchAryan , they are doubly gifted indeed .

One does not need however to be trained in Scientific disciplines

to derive the full benefit of AdhyAthmic Science .

 

Just Some Thoughts in passing !

 

NamO NaarAyaNAya ,

V.Sadagopan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Maya Iyengar

sarathys ; jayasartn ; kdevanathan ;

mksudarshan2002 ; Vijaya Raghavan ; s.ramachandran ;

Sadagopan ; ramachandran soundararajan ;

Friday, July 23, 2004 5:17 AM

Fwd: Moolavar

 

 

Dear devotees,

 

I was shocked beyond belief to see the responses to the report quoted from

Indian express on moolavar and the complete black-out of the mail I sent as a

sequel to . When I came to know that relevance has been attached to

the shila roopam, the materials used for abhishekam etc, I was over-awed how

every aspect in our tradition has evolved with such rich meaning. With this

thought when I look around it is that "Kaangindra porulellam yaane ennum..". As

I look into my Human physiology book, every aspect tallies with the upanishad

statement that this body of ours is the shareeram for brahman and it is he who

controls it as the sarathy. The descent of 11 out of 12 cranial nerves upto

heart (only) and the remaining one coming to the stomach looks like Vishnu as

Vaiswanara pervading the body through the food he cooks in the stomach. Every

system inside the body as a part and the control by brain as a whole (I am

leaving out details of connectivity here because I am yet to come to grips with

the fact that people here do not want one to think) is an amazing aspect of

Brahman 'happening' from macro to micro level. There is wonderful symmetry at

all levels of creation, only that the human brain limited by hypocrisy and

dogmas refuse to fall in line. It seems God has tough time dealing with us only

- to goad to make us see reason and realise him. When a writer (writing on the

moolavar) tells his little son that Thiruvaadi pporam was the birth day of

'Goddess' and that her age is as old as that of earth, no one would correct it.

Because that would be apacharam (according to the members of the group).. But

that he lost a wonderful chance to tell his son the story of Andal (who would

have denounced any reference to herself as goddess) and the easy way to explain

the road to spirituality by means of her story is not at all realised. Going by

this kind of attitude, I very well understand how and why our sacred knowledge

of the past had undergone so much mutilation over generations. For the bhktas of

today, bhakti is a means to get this or that result including moksham. But I

don't think our texts ascribed to this view. They said if you expect some return

for bhakti from Perumal then it is tantamount to a wife expecting 'kooli' from

her husband for the happiness he had given her. On the other hand we find texts

telling us to meditate upon him through knowledge (which I find through science

and logic too) which in essence is bhakti which is para bhakti leading to him.

When you do upasana on him through vigyana, you see him as vigyana mayan. Can

any one challenge this? Then why this fear about science?

 

I told my parents my fear and doubt whether it is impossible to find one

belonging to our fold who understands or is desirous of understanding god

through bhakti as well as knowledge from science. At least are there people who

realise that knowledge that leads to bhakti has been regarded by seers like

Ramanujacharya as a way of Brahmo-upasana, which Ramanujachrya himeself

followed? They said they too had not seen (so far) both to co-exist. Perhaps it

is Narayana alone who can understand me. So keep chanting " Sriranganatha,

mamanatha, namosthuthe", they said.

 

It is with much pain that I decide to come out of the group which in my

opinion has touched only the tip of the burg as far as promoting and sustaining

the essence of Vedic knowledge is concerned but can not help the devotee to keep

an open and fresh mind as to allow "all noble thoughts come to them from all

sides".

 

Regards,

 

Maya.

 

 

 

Note: forwarded message attached.

 

 

 

New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages!

 

 

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Sreemathe Ramanujaya Namaha:

Dear Sriman Vijaya Raghavan Swamin,

I don't entertain any doubt regarding the structure of the Temple, the

Vigraham, the materials used, the rituals etc being the most appropriate

ones. Our Agama Shastras Like Paancharaathra and Vykhaanasa have laid out

the principles underlying these elaborately. It is said that Sriman

Narayanan our Emperuman himself taught the Paancha Raathra Agamas during 5

nights. Can there be any better Engineer be it Civil, Mechanical or

Metallurgical than Emperumaan? He is also the best materail and Nutrition

Scientist. In this world as it exists these are the best possible methods

and structures. As A.C. Prabhupada Bhakti Vedanta Swamin of ISKCON puts it,

Lord Krishna is the Greatest Scientist of all. No argument about this.

But as in everything at this time, I am sorry to state, the modern Agama

Shastra Pundits and Sthapathis unfortunately seem to be working under the

influence of politicians, rationalists and money power, forgetting the Deity

Himself, leading to all confusions and unpleasantness and thereby causing

'Arishtam" to the country and its subjects.

Jai Sriman Narayana.

Adiyen,

Ramanuja Dasan.

 

 

>Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan

>Ramanujam Varada Srinivasa Thatta <acharyatvsr

>Re: Re: Moolavar

>Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:58:56 -0700 (PDT)

>

>Thatachar swami,

>

>I beg to differ from your view. I think the subject

>here was why was this that our great and learned

>ancestors, decided on this kind of structure and

>ways. There should be a inner meaning for all our

>deads.

>

>If your greatself can guide us the younger generation,

>it will be of great help to do things with full

>shradda.

>

>Dasan/raghavan

>

>--- Ramanujam Varada Srinivasa Thatta

><acharyatvsr wrote:

> > Sreemathe Ramanujaya Namaha:

> > If you think the Vigraham is only a symbol the go

> > ahead and do all kinds of

> > experiments. But we are not supposed to think that

> > the Vigraham is the

> > symbolic representation of Emperuman.

> > Also Maya does not mean a phenomenon which also

> > obeys a set of laws which

> > are verifiable. It means by definition the

> > inconceivable power of the Lord.

> > If it obeys a set of laws then, it is known only to

> > the Lord. It cannot be

> > verified by any other soul.

> > If in Particle Physics there is a limitation like

> > the Heisenberg's

> > Uncertainty Principle inbuilt in the physical way we

> > try to enquire into

> > matter and materiel phenomena, then the nature of

> > soul, super soul and Maya

> > cannot be inquired into, using physical tools. These

> > tools are totally

> > anadequate.

> > Vigraha Aradhanam is not mere physical exercise; it

> > is a mental and supra

> > mental effort by the soul to crave and seek the

> > Grace of the Lord.

> > I draw attention here to the article writtten by

> > Sriman M.K Sudersan about

> > the souls being Stree by nature. Sthreetwam is

> > attributed to souls not in

> > physical manner. By nature they are totally

> > dependent on Paramathma for

> > everything and hence the sthreethwam. If we cannot

> > know the gender of a

> > foetus up till the 3rd month of pregnency, it does

> > not mean it is sthree in

> > nature. The mere absence or non-formation of organs

> > of reproduction, does

> > not mean that the foetus is feminine in nature. It

> > can be argued that it is

> > neither masculine, nor feminine. (On another plane

> > "Na Puman, Nasthree,

> > Nashandobo" is how the Paramathman is described in

> > the Upanishads). The DNA

> > code is alive and working all the time and the

> > gender is predetermined at

> > the very first moment of the foetal formation. Maybe

> > even before as the

> > Hindu Philosophy says.

> > If we cannot even understand fully the Trigunathmaka

> > Prakriti which follows

> > a set of laws laid by the creator (which He Himself

> > sometimes obeys when He

> > is present as a person) using the same set of laws,

> > how can we enquire into

> > the nature of the Lord who is inconceivable

> > according to our Vedas (and His

> > powers).

> > Adiiyen,

> > Ramanuja Dasan.

> >

> >

> > >shashi

> > >,

> > Oppiliappan

> > >CC: Sudarshan K Madabushi

> > <mksudarshan2002, Narender Reddy

> > ><reddynp, Sgt

> > <saranagathi>

> > >Re: Re: Moolavar

> > >Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:48:08 -0400

> > >

> > >reddy jI,

> > >limited things have been attributed to the

> > limiteless, the moment

> > >we have a tmeple, mUrtI, ritual, name etc.

> > >

> > >in one of the lectures late professor joseph

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I notice the pains which all of us going thru these mails/ exchanges--of

course it is great that atleast we have started sharing such feelings--which

by itself is an achievement.The fear of Apacharam seems to have taken

over the questionning process--once again questionning can take place only

after one has spent time with some Kalakshepam etc etc.

 

While the arguement that-at some stage -it is the Faith which takes over the

"reason" is unquestionnable --and it is sort of "realised" over a period of

time by people as they go thru the life's journey.I myslef being a Physicist

breaking my head on the Heisenbergs and the Quantum Thoeries--to some extent

the book by Swami Neduntheru Kannan on Divine Soverignty and Our Freedom

should bring about some links to the scientific temper we all trying to talk

about in these columns.

 

But what I want to say ----over these 200 plus years Srivaishnavism has

undergone changes into some sort of hypocricy--mostly dominated by

ritualistic --Acharam related ---percolating a sense of loss of faith as a

whole--materilism has taken over even to many people who put on Dwadasa

Pundrams everyday.The Great Philosophy of Vishitadvaitam by itself is

increasingly being understood today with the increased number of people in

their 40s (VRS cases )and many in their 20s just by virtue of revival into

the essense of Ramanuja 's uinified approach .More exposure today into the

concepts is helping a lot to address such questions and somewhat practice

without the fear of being hypoctitic.

 

While our philosophy as a whole is so nicely integrated --it needs enormous

effort to assimilate and one's life time is not adequate---I am wondering

whether at all we can ---I mean some one who could package the essense of

our Siddhantaham in such a way that one could practice it on a day today

basis--( for example in Budhism they have brought about the Vipassana

meditation which by itslef is relatively easy to practice---today millions

of people all over the world practice it and do see benefit ----though

Bhudism goes against the Vedas , concept of Karma theory stands good )--so

there is clear sense of direction which brings about both short term

benefits while the very purpose of this meditation is the long benefit of

Moksha--though the

interpretation of Moksha by Budhists are different from ours.What I mean is

not meditation as a solution but some such thing which can attract all

scattered Sri Vaishnavaites who have or slowly melting away from the main

stream siddhatam just for wnat of such simplistic approach- atleast to make

a beginning.

 

I am aware of the fact that our Siddhantam is such that it has to be

practiced minute by minute--as true Sri Vaishnavaites-- as our Azhwars have

done---and this is where the present day life does not lend itself to

practice.====and the lack of Faith takes roots and people switch over to

quick fix Gods---I am also referrring to the ParaDevata Aradhanam issue

which is also taking its rounds amongst the Sri Ranga Sri memebers.

 

Dasan,

 

Ranagarajan.

PS: Once again I attempted to understand myself the concepts rather than

finding even remotely any answer to the questions that are raised and

debated.

-

"Sadagopan" <sgopan

"Maya Iyengar" <maya_s1717; <sarathys; "jasn sn"

<jayasartn; <kdevanathan; "sudarshan madabushi"

<mksudarshan2002; "Vijaya Raghavan" <svrvan;

<s.ramachandran; "ramachandran soundararajan"

<maheesaran; "SRS" <Srirangasri>

Cc: "Ponnappan" <Oppiliappan>

24 July, 2004 1:11 AM

Re: Moolavar

 

 

> Dear SrImathi Maya Iyengar:

>

> Please do not be hurt over the exchanges relating to

> your mail on your impassioned plea for using the tools

> of science in an effort to comprehend the intricacies of

> ArchA Moorthy ( Consecrated Forms , where the Lord

> resides for accepting our AarAdhanam).

>

> I am a scientist by training and have a Doctor's degree

> from the top most Scientific& Engineering University ,

> Massachusetts Institue Of Technology (MIT) . Many

> Members of the list are Medical Doctors and Technical

> Professionals . All of us have high regard to Science

> and its tools to open up new frontiers for saving lives

> and reduce suffering and to travel to far off planets and

> their Moons .

>

> Many of us , call ourselves rationalists or traditonalists do

> not believe Science as a tool can be of much help

> in spiritual matters. Faith takes over , where Science

> is unable to help . There is no irreconceilable conflict

> between science and Religion (Knowledge and belief ).

> They are not irreconceilable antagonists as stated by

> Einstein . He says further: " A religious person is devout in

> the sense that he or she has no doubt about the significance

> and loftiness of specific super-personal objects and goals ,

> which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation "

> ( in a scientific sense) .

>

> The devout are steeped in Mahaa Viswasam about the Lord's

> rakshakathvam and are like children crossing a road holding

> firmly the hands of its Father . They have implicit and total faith

> in the protective capability of the Lord(Father) and are not looking for

> a rational explanation to convince themselves as to why and how

> the Lord is their protector (Rakshakan ). After many births ,

> they hold on to the Lord's sacred feet and recognize that

> they have no recourse except the Lord and the Lord does

> not dare to shake the firm grip of the devout . These feeling

> states are beyond analysis by scientific methods or tools.

> That is the way it is !

>

> This is not to say that the role of Science in Vedic way of

> life is minimal or nonexistent . The VedAs and Upanishads

> accept and celebrate the Lord as the source of all knowledge.

> Inspired by the Vedic Texts , the Rishis of Vedic age " developed

> their positive sciences and made the world worth while to live in

> with comforts and purposefulness". The rotations and revolutions

> of earth , planets and Sun (astronomy ) were developed

> by the likes of Aryabhatta et al. The concept of Zero( Kham),

> the reciprocal of Infinity and Mathematical Infinity were developed

> form here ." Besides Mathematical infinity , God Himself was

> recognized as the Infinite Unity ".

>

> The Science of Vedic geometry arose from Vedic Rishis . There are

> references to all kinds of mechanical systems in VedAs (Mechanical

> Engineering) . The healing powers of herbs against specific

> diseases ( the science of Pharmacology ) has been recorded

> in Atharva Vedam in great detail. The dangers of Tuberclosis

> and its cure has been covered in several hymns of Atarva Vedam .

> The world of herbs (Botany ) and animals ( Zoology) are covered

> again in VedAs . One can go on and on about physical sciences .

> But the Vedic rishis had some thing beyond the physical sciences

> and developed AdhyAthmika Saasthrams dealing with the metaphysical

> tatthvams of the indissoluble kinship between the Lord of the Universe

> and the Jeevans , which are both co-eternal.

>

> Science ravels along and soon is confounded by its own

> limits . We travel with science and come to the stage , where

> we seek more answers and insights that Science can not give.

> Our sights are lifted , our hearts are thrilled and we bask under

> the warmth of the wisdom of the Rg Vedic manthram ( X. 121.5):

>

> " By Him , the heavens are strong and the earth is steadfast ;

> by HIm light's realm and sky-vault are supported ; By Him the regions

> in the mid-air are measured . To that Lord alone , May we offer

> our adoration " . The concept of ananya gathithvam , Aakinchnyam ,

> SaraNAgathy arose from such insights .

>

> If the physical Scientists are blessed to have the initiation into the

AdhyAthmic

> Science under the tutelage of a SadAchAryan , they are doubly gifted

indeed .

> One does not need however to be trained in Scientific disciplines

> to derive the full benefit of AdhyAthmic Science .

>

> Just Some Thoughts in passing !

>

> NamO NaarAyaNAya ,

> V.Sadagopan

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

-

> Maya Iyengar

> sarathys ; jayasartn ; kdevanathan

; mksudarshan2002 ; Vijaya Raghavan ;

s.ramachandran ; Sadagopan ; ramachandran soundararajan ;

 

> Friday, July 23, 2004 5:17 AM

> Fwd: Moolavar

>

>

> Dear devotees,

>

> I was shocked beyond belief to see the responses to the report quoted

from Indian express on moolavar and the complete black-out of the mail I

sent as a sequel to . When I came to know that relevance has been

attached to the shila roopam, the materials used for abhishekam etc, I was

over-awed how every aspect in our tradition has evolved with such rich

meaning. With this thought when I look around it is that "Kaangindra

porulellam yaane ennum..". As I look into my Human physiology book, every

aspect tallies with the upanishad statement that this body of ours is the

shareeram for brahman and it is he who controls it as the sarathy. The

descent of 11 out of 12 cranial nerves upto heart (only) and the remaining

one coming to the stomach looks like Vishnu as Vaiswanara pervading the body

through the food he cooks in the stomach. Every system inside the body as a

part and the control by brain as a whole (I am leaving out details of

connectivity here because I am yet to come to grips with the fact that

people here do not want one to think) is an amazing aspect of Brahman

'happening' from macro to micro level. There is wonderful symmetry at all

levels of creation, only that the human brain limited by hypocrisy and

dogmas refuse to fall in line. It seems God has tough time dealing with us

only - to goad to make us see reason and realise him. When a writer (writing

on the moolavar) tells his little son that Thiruvaadi pporam was the birth

day of 'Goddess' and that her age is as old as that of earth, no one would

correct it. Because that would be apacharam (according to the members of the

group).. But that he lost a wonderful chance to tell his son the story of

Andal (who would have denounced any reference to herself as goddess) and the

easy way to explain the road to spirituality by means of her story is not at

all realised. Going by this kind of attitude, I very well understand how and

why our sacred knowledge of the past had undergone so much mutilation over

generations. For the bhktas of today, bhakti is a means to get this or that

result including moksham. But I don't think our texts ascribed to this view.

They said if you expect some return for bhakti from Perumal then it is

tantamount to a wife expecting 'kooli' from her husband for the happiness he

had given her. On the other hand we find texts telling us to meditate upon

him through knowledge (which I find through science and logic too) which in

essence is bhakti which is para bhakti leading to him. When you do upasana

on him through vigyana, you see him as vigyana mayan. Can any one challenge

this? Then why this fear about science?

>

> I told my parents my fear and doubt whether it is impossible to find one

belonging to our fold who understands or is desirous of understanding god

through bhakti as well as knowledge from science. At least are there people

who realise that knowledge that leads to bhakti has been regarded by seers

like Ramanujacharya as a way of Brahmo-upasana, which Ramanujachrya himeself

followed? They said they too had not seen (so far) both to co-exist. Perhaps

it is Narayana alone who can understand me. So keep chanting "

Sriranganatha, mamanatha, namosthuthe", they said.

>

> It is with much pain that I decide to come out of the group which in my

opinion has touched only the tip of the burg as far as promoting and

sustaining the essence of Vedic knowledge is concerned but can not help the

devotee to keep an open and fresh mind as to allow "all noble thoughts come

to them from all sides".

>

> Regards,

>

> Maya.

>

>

>

> Note: forwarded message attached.

>

>

> --------

----

>

> New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages!

>

>

Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Dear Bhagavathas,

 

This may be deviating a little bit from the present topic.

 

I being from technical background as well believe Vedas are

also science. Our ancient Indian Science was subject based and

not object based as is the prsent day science.

 

I still agree with our ancestors who rightly termed Perumal as

Ksheerasaagara Shayana (One who rests on the milky ocean).

If we are not wrong, our galaxy is named Milky way. Our ancestors

were far ahead of the present day science.

 

The other point would I would like to stress is the Navagraham.

Navagraham depicts Sun at the centre of the Graha (planetary)

system. This is the heliocentric thoery. Our ancestors knew this

long back. But for the modern day science, it was Galileo who

gave this theory.

 

If we can spend more time into the works of ancestors, may be

we can find even more that has not discovered or invented yet.

 

Aduyen,

Thuphal Viayaraghava Dasan

Hungary

 

 

 

Sudarshan K Madabushi [mksudarshan2002]

Tue 7/20/2004 6:52 PM

 

Cc:

Re: Moolavar

 

Dear Bhagavatas:

As mentioned in aan earlier posting, it would be helpful if some PramaaNams from

our scriptures could be cited in support of the scientific explanations.

Moderator

===============================================================================

 

 

, Maya Iyengar <maya_s1717>

wrote:

> I wish to hear from fellow devotees their opinion about this and

the reasons for use of lime stone and wood in some temples. What do

aagamaas say about the choice of granite and other substances?

> Regards,

> Maya.

 

 

Dear member,

 

The forwarded article is very interesting. If the experiments

described are true, we now have at hand a sound (pun un-intended)

scientific justification for idolatry.

 

But it also makes one wonder about another thing.

 

If the granite inside the sanctum is so very important -- in terms

of 'pH factor', 'acoustic' and 'ionic' conductivity etc. etc. -- then

perhaps the time has come for us to leave the 'moolavar-vigraham-s'

in our temples alone? Perhaps, we should no more

overburden 'moolavars' with all manner of "aabharaNam-s" (jewellery

of gold, diamond, precious gemstones, what not)? Surely, all the

heavy jewellery covering the idol (head-to-foot as in some of our

temples) must be negatively interfering with, why even diminishing,

all the positive energy the granite is said to generate?

 

Can scientific-minded members please throw some light?

 

Thanks and regards,

 

dAsan,

Sudarshan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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