Gita Satsangh; Chapter 9 Verses 1 to 3

[Guest guest]

My dear Sunderji,

 

Your post 14892 reads like a grammarian's funeral.

 

To tell you honestly, we are operating at two different frequencies.

I, therefore, wonder how we ever can share common ground on this

topic.

 

Before we come to the grammar part, I agree that guhyatamam is very

much there in 15:20 and 18:64 and in those verses this adjective

compound directly refers to paramam vacha and sAstra respectively. No

arguments there.

 

But you are extending that argument to cover 9-1, where I am

compelled to think differently simply for the sake of depth of

understanding. I was not correcting Vyasa, Panini or Sankara or you

for that matter. I have nothing against guhyatamam going with

jnAnam. Let it, by all means. I was only pointing out that if

guhyatamam goes with idam that would impart a new dimension to our

understanding. JnAnam is such that It does not need any qualifying

because It is That knowing which all other knowledges are as well

known. However, till the truth of it is seen, idam can do well with

a companion. So, idam guhyatamam. Just see the expanses we are

gaining by simply shifting the focus.

 

There is another reason too for my line of thinking. The whole of

Ch. 9 (4 through 34) is a journey from idam to THAT. This will be

clear to any discerning mind - from all the diversity of beings,

actions, sacrifices, movables, immovables, the whole of creation down

to the essence of it all, to what is guhyam in idam, to the Unity

behind idam. Where else to point this out other than in the very

introductory verse?

 

You have done a fantastic job to prove me wrong and used all

resources at your command to ensure achieving that end. I cannot

measure upto you here and I don't find any point in doing that. I

only wish you had come up with corrections that served to upgrade our

current level of understanding of these three verses, which, alas,

has not happened! We haven't gained an inch. If Sanskrit language

has, is a mute question.

 

About the grammar of it, you are quoting Cologne Digital to say that

tamaM is not legitimate. I mean tamaM with a dot over the

letter "ma". Please check Apte. He has clearly mentioned the

meanings of darkness and Rahu without feeling "illegitimate".

 

The finer grammatical nuances that you are applying to understand

guhyatamam are just beyond me. There is a communication gap here.

The import that I wanted to convey was that of avidya because of

which we fail to perceive the truth of idam. GuhyatamaM may sound

like an adjective to idam. However, it can be seen as a

complementary, parallel noun too. Like avidyA mAya, where both point

at the same entity. The two, therefore, can stand without the

support of pravakshyAmi.

 

In all your grammatical fervour, you seem to have forgotten that the

object under review has great literary import, where we may have to

set aside the strict rules of grammar, lest we spoil the beauty of it

all. Why should we deny poetic licence to Vyasa when we can

gleefully grant it to William Wordsworth or Shakespeare?

 

If my way of looking at things has helped widen our vision, I am more

than satisfied. I, therefore, would not like to be dragged into

answering any further grammatical repeat grammatical objections. To

talk philosophy, I am always there as that is what I love to do.

 

Now the tailpiece. There was this very beautiful girl – a

personification of grace and gracefulness. A radiologist went

proposing to her parents and demanded to see all her X-ray pictures

in order to make sure that all the sandhis and samAsAs were intact!

Be a radiologist by all means but not at the cost of losing the eye

for beauty.

 

Best regards and pranAms.

 

Madathil Nair

 

 

advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote:

>

> These are some reasons: I hope Sanskrit scholars will correct

> my interpretation -

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste all.

 

In the hurry of posting my message 14893 earlier today, I missed to

mention the following thoughts:

 

Let us examine the widely and generally accepted translation

of "most secret" or "secret of secrets" for guhyatamaM. What is a

secret? It is something not known to someone who becomes its knower

later on. When it is known to him, it is no more a secret. How is it

expressed in common parlance? The knower says: "I was kept totally

in the dark.". What does he mean? He means that something was kept

a secret from him. So, darkness is to secret what brilliance is to

the sun. If guhyatamaM is secret, then naturally there is an element

of darkness already in it! Do we still need dictionaries?

 

However golden and glittering the hiraNmaya pAtra be, there ought to

be darkness when it covers the face of Truth. We call it avidyA. May

pUshan (Sun of Enlightenment), therefore, undo what is guhyatamaM

and reveal. Then, idam will stand revealed as the brilliance of

rAjaguhyam rAjavidya that is jnAnam.

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair>

wrote:

>

> Your post 14892 reads like a grammarian's funeral.

>

>

Namaste,

 

anudvegakaraM vaak{}ya.n satyaM priyahita.n cha yat.h .

svaadhyaayaabhyasana.n chaiva vaaN^mayaM tapa uchyate .. 17\.15..

 

When you speak out, speak out auspicious things, O bird of inner

conscience; when you remain silent, be pleased to cherish kind

thoughts toward us. When you speak out, flying upwards, your voice is

like sweet musical notes of a lute.

 

Rig Veda 2.43.3

 

mauna.n chaivaasmi guhyaanaa.n GYaanaM GYaanavataamaham.h .. 10\.38..

 

Best wishes,

 

 

Signing off,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair>

wrote:

> My dear Sunderji,

>

> Your post 14892 reads like a grammarian's funeral.

>

> To tell you honestly, we are operating at two different

frequencies.

> I, therefore, wonder how we ever can share common ground on this

> topic.

 

As the Title suggests, this is Gita Satsangh. Can we not be a little

more courteous ? Why so much venom? Why so much bitterness?

 

You asked for the grammatical reasons why it should not be

interpretted the way you did, and Sunderji just listed them out for

you. As usual, he was most generously trying to help.

 

vAngmaya tapas is very important for a sadhaka.

 

Savithri

[Guest guest]

Namaste Nairji:

 

First, let me express my sincere appreciation to your thoughts and

insights on these important verses on several posts. At the same

time I admire Sunderji for his unselfish service to this list as a

moderator by providing valuable guidance to all list members. More

than this list, he has been constantly providing service to Sanskrit

Bharati and other Web sites for storing important Sanskrit documents

in the Internet. He is very impartial and always impersonal while

correcting someone's grammatical or logical errors. He has

contributed significantly when Sadaji was posting his Brahma Suutra

notes and we all need to learn from Sadaji how to be a good scholar

with humility.

 

Sadaji's characterization of the Royal Secret by 'Supreme Secret,'

is quite appropriate given the complex nature of the simple Truth.

Those who knows the codes to the secret only will be able detach

their attention from false identity. Whether we admit or not, we only

have limited knowledge and consequently we indulge in body, mind,

intellect paradigm to generate more thoughts, writings and

discussions. Sooner or later the thinkers cross the threshold and

commit logical and grammatical errors due to ever-present weakness.

When we expose our stupidity, someone with the command of the Lord

rise up and points out our mistakes. This is part of His mAyA or

Leela and the only viable stratagy for us is to take a deep breath

and contemplate our thoughts with objectivity. If fail to take the

corrective step, the ego bursts up and anger emerges from nowhere to

now here.

 

The Satsangh is a great opportunity to all of us to express our

understanding of Gita and share our thoughts with our friends in the

list. We also get the opportunity to show our scholarship with

humility and learn to accept logical and grammatical errors pointed

out by our fellow members. Within this Satsangh, God has provided

professors, grammarians, thinkers, listeners and moderators. This

diversity of talents is once again His Leela and we should be

thankful to Him for keeping the discussions with check and balance.

The nice thing about the Gita Satsangh is that we have full freedom

to express our thoughts and at the same time, someone also has full

freedom to point out our errors and shortcomings. With contemplation,

it is possible for us to understand that the Lord's messenger takes

different names and forms just to inform us when we make logical and

grammatical errors. The Lord's message is clear and sound – Peace

prevails with wisdom and anger prevails with ego!

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair>

wrote:

> Namaste all.

>

> In the hurry of posting my message 14893 earlier today, I missed to

> mention the following thoughts:

>

> Let us examine the widely and generally accepted translation

> of "most secret" or "secret of secrets" for guhyatamaM. What is a

> secret? It is something not known to someone who becomes its

knower

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote:

> Namaste Nairji:

>

> First, let me express my sincere appreciation to your thoughts and

> insights on these important verses on several posts. At the same

> time I admire Sunderji for his unselfish service to this list as a

> moderator by providing valuable guidance to all list members. More

> than this list, he has been constantly providing service to

Sanskrit

 

Pranaam Sri Ram,

 

I have been silently following the discussions taking place.....sorry

am unable to participate because its like more of a learning

experience for me and I am not yet ready to 'give' my views. However,

I'd like to say a few words about the discussions over the past few

weeks.

 

Whilst I am sure that all list members appreciate Sri Sunder's

exceptional mastery over the Sanskrit language, and also your

comments as to his contribution to not only this list but to the

language in general, we often tend to forget that this forum is more

for the "understanding" of the message and spirit of the Shastras

rather than the grammatical importance. I must hasten to add,

however, that that does not mean that grammar should be neglected as

it helps in a deeper understanding of the words.....but to get into

lengthy discussions on such matters as a dot here and a matra there,

I feel is defeating the purpose of learning through online

discussions.

 

I realised that whilst following the long and sometimes dreary

postings on grammar, I was getting lost in those mails and almost

losing the 'thread' of thoughts so beautifully created by

enlightening postings from list members, especially Prof VK, Sri

Sunder and other senior members.

 

I very strongly feel that this great opportunity of online Satsangh

should be utilised by us in understanding the spirit of the great

teachings of the Gita rather than getting caught up in trivia. Did

someone say "Grammar is the grave of a language"??

 

As always, these are my personal thoughts without meaning disrespect

to any group members, least of all to you, Sri Sunder and other

senior members/moderators.

 

Let us enjoy and benefit from the teachings of Holy Gita.

 

With respect and warm regards,

 

Kamal

[Guest guest]

Sunderji, Savitriji, Ramji,

 

I had only Robert Browning's poem "A Grammarian's Funeral" in mind.

No inauspicious thoughts at all. Those interested can read it at

http://www.library.utoronto.ca/utel/rp/poems/browning12b.html and

find how sweet and enlightening it is.

 

Besides, didn't Sankara himself laugh at grammar in his famous

Bhajagovindam?

 

My apologies nevertheless. Shri Kamal Kothari, your advice well

taken.

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

 

advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote:

> advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair>

> wrote:

>

> >

> > Your post 14892 reads like a grammarian's funeral.

> >

> >

> Namaste,

>

> anudvegakaraM vaak{}ya.n satyaM priyahita.n cha yat.h .

> svaadhyaayaabhyasana.n chaiva vaaN^mayaM tapa uchyate .. 17\.15..

>

> When you speak out, speak out auspicious things, O bird of inner

> conscience; when you remain silent, be pleased to cherish kind

> thoughts toward us. When you speak out, flying upwards, your voice

is

> like sweet musical notes of a lute.

>

> Rig Veda 2.43.3

>

> mauna.n chaivaasmi guhyaanaa.n GYaanaM GYaanavataamaham.h .. 10

\.38..

>

> Best wishes,

>

>

> Signing off,

>

> Sunder

[Guest guest]

Namaste

 

While free-lance writing of Madathil Nairji is welcome,

unpleasant writing which assaults another member by strong

words is objectionable. A grammatical point was raised. Nair was

ignoring the grammar as well as tradition and interpreting

things in his own way, incidentally taking shelter under a

'poetic licence of Vyasa'. Well, let it be. Just as he has the

freedom to interpret things in his own way, Sunder has also the

freedom to point out the unsuitability of that interpretation by

pointing out the grammatical failings and also the dictionary

meanings of words and non-existence of the meanings as suggested

by Nair. Nair, if he did not agree with that, should have left

it there saying, 'I can't agree'. Instead, his post no. 14893

broke all sound traditions of this list and spoiled the

atmosphere of transparent cordiality that prevailed in the

postings of the list. I am very pained to note that a discussion

bearing the name of Gita satsangh has turned out to be like

this. Now that Nairji's point has been made and everyone has

read it, I would now like to appeal to Nairji to take back his

post no.14893. This is the least that he can do to bring back

the satsangh to its normal course. May we appeal to him to do so

in the good interests of the health of the advaitin list?

 

praNAms to all advaitins

profvk

 

 

 

 

 

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

 

 

 

Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More

http://faith.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Prof. Krishnamurthyji and all.

 

I go by your wish. This Satsang is important to me as it is to all

of you. I do not know how to withdraw my message. The moderators

have my full consent to delete either the objectionable part of it or

the whole of it or even the ones that went before it.

 

Pranams to you all.

 

Madathil Nair

 

______________________

 

In advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote:

Now that Nairji's point has been made and everyone has

> read it, I would now like to appeal to Nairji to take back his

> post no.14893. This is the least that he can do to bring back

> the satsangh to its normal course. May we appeal to him to do so

> in the good interests of the health of the advaitin list?

>

> praNAms to all advaitins

> profvk

>

>

>

>

>

> =====

> Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

> My website on Science and Spirituality is

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

> You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought

Vision and Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's

manuscripts from the site.

>

>

>

> Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More

> http://faith.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Kamal:

 

You have made a valid point that as one of the moderators, I fully

understand your point. At the same time, we do need to recognize the

fact that Sanskrit grammar is an integral part of our scripture

written in Sanskrit language. It is very easy for any novice to

indulge in his/her own imagination to make alternative

interpretations but it is quite essential that the grammar part is

kept intact. If we don't respect that, the oral tradition which has

been kept alive by generations will disappear in no time. This list

does want to keep our traditions and culture in tact, we are willing

to bend but can never anyone to break it. Our tradition does require

any expression of scholarship with humility, without that

understanding, we lose civility.

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, "Kamal Kothari" <kamal_kothari_india>

wrote:

>

> Whilst I am sure that all list members appreciate Sri Sunder's

> exceptional mastery over the Sanskrit language, and also your

> comments as to his contribution to not only this list but to the

> language in general, we often tend to forget that this forum is

more

> for the "understanding" of the message and spirit of the Shastras

> rather than the grammatical importance. I must hasten to add,

> however, that that does not mean that grammar should be neglected

as

> it helps in a deeper understanding of the words.....but to get into

> lengthy discussions on such matters as a dot here and a matra

there,

> I feel is defeating the purpose of learning through online

> discussions.

[Guest guest]

Namaste: This is my first posting. I too was getting a little lost in the

lengthy discussions on grammar and some response that betrayed ego. What I was

looking for when I joined the group was an understanding of Advaita thinking and

how it can change my life in its day to day functioning. As Arjuna had asked

Krishna as to how he could recognize a Sthitapragnya, how did he talk, how did

he behave and so on, I too want to know from this learned group as to how I can

change my thinking, speaking and behavior as a true Advaitin. Prof. Vk had given

a constructive advice to someone the other day on how he could begin to progress

in his goal to achieve Moksha. I was touched by that advice. Can we have a

similar discussion on how to recognize and be a true Advaitin.

Shanti Mehta

 

Note from the List Moderator: Your point is well taken and the correspondence

that I received from the concerned members do indicate that they also understand

the importance of maintaining our behavior as a 'True Advaitin.' We are still in

the learning process and hopefully, this Satsangh will help us all retain our

memory about our 'True Divine Nature.'

[Guest guest]

My dear noble devotee of Sri Sankara

Bhagavatpujyapada,

 

Right now I am facing a common Indian worldly

situation. My mother's health is showing a different

pattern.With my mediocre knowledge I hear that all

this is maya.But I have only heard it. Now, I am

trying to retrace my thoughts about my sweetest mother

to their roots.

 

Why do I get unhappy if she is affected?

 

Because ,she is my mother.

 

If she were not my mother, will I become as unhappy as

I am now?

 

I will feel unhappy but not really for so long.

 

Why?

 

Because they are not my mothers.

 

So , it is MYNESS that is the cause.

 

Where does it come from? Is it really true that she is

my mother?

 

What is mine and what is yours and what is everybody,s

?

 

In the process ,I am forgetting about MY mother and

getting somewhere.Temporarily,there is no thinking

about MY mother and so there is no unhappiness. Again

, the feeling comes back.As lonng as the MyNESS is

there, all these pains and pleasures haunt us for the

rest of our lives.

 

I am trying to locate that I because of which the

myness comes. I think by the grace of Sri Sankara

bhagavatpujyapada I am able to feel it. But where does

that I come from? Where does it come from ?

 

One day , I pray that I will find out where that I

comes from by Sri Sankara Bagavan's grace. Then, there

will be an answer to all the questions. After reading

Sri Sankara Bhagavatpujyapada's adhyasa , I have gone

thus far.May be this will be of some information value

to your quest to become an advaiti.

 

Yours in Sri Sankara Bhagavatpujyapada's love,

 

Chilukuri Bhuvaneswar

-- Shanti <shanti wrote:

<HR>

<html><body>

 

 

<tt>

  Namaste: This is my first posting. I too was

getting a little lost in the lengthy discussions on

grammar and some response that betrayed ego. What I

was looking for when I joined the group was an

understanding of Advaita thinking and how it can

change my life in its day to day functioning. As

Arjuna had asked Krishna as to how he could recognize

a Sthitapragnya, how did he talk, how did he behave

and so on, I too want to know from this learned group

as to how I can change my thinking, speaking and

behavior as a true Advaitin. Prof. Vk had given a

constructive advice to someone the other day on how he

could begin to progress in his goal to achieve Moksha.

I was touched by that advice. Can we have a similar

discussion on how to recognize and be a true

Advaitin.<BR>

  Shanti Mehta<BR>

<BR>

Note from the List Moderator: Your point is well taken

and the correspondence that I received from the

concerned members do indicate that they also

understand the importance of maintaining our behavior

as a 'True Advaitin.' We are still in the learning

process and hopefully, this Satsangh will help us all

retain our memory about our 'True Divine Nature.'<BR>

<BR>

</tt>

 

 

<br>

<tt>

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of

nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. <BR>

Advaitin List Archives available at: <a

href="http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/">of Service</a>.</tt>

</br>

 

</body></html>

 

 

______________________

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visit http://in.tv.''>http://in.tv.'>http://in.tv.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote:

> Namaste Sri Kamal:

>

> You have made a valid point that as one of the moderators, I fully

> understand your point. At the same time, we do need to recognize

the

> fact that Sanskrit grammar is an integral part of our scripture

> written in Sanskrit language.

 

Pranaam,

 

Point taken. I respect your sentiments fully. However, only a small

request to all list members, especially senior members like Sri

Sunder and yourself, that let us not get lost in the forest

of grammar to such an extent that the *spirit* of the discussion goes

haywire. In my humble opinion, in the mail under discussion, Sri Nair

and Sri Sunder went a little overboard and got a little personal in

trying to prove a point. Sri Sunder is a senior member. It is

essential for at least senior list members, especially moderators, to

(a)be short and sweet (strictly keep to the point) especially when

discussing matters which are not central to the theme, and

(b)keep restraint in reacting to mails especially when he identifies

it as frivolous and offensive.

 

Senior members discuss so many points in such detail, threadbare, we

should not forget small pointers as TITIKSHA.

 

I hope this sets at rest all further discussion on this matter. The

point has been well taken by all concerned. Lets get on with the

Satsangh. I am back to my task of shravana, manana and hope to be

able to nidhidhyasana

 

with respect and warm regards

 

Kamal

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

Thanks Kamalji.

 

I already apologized to respected Sri Sunder-Ji. We understand each

other better now and I look forward to having a very long association

with him through effective advaitic satsang. The whole incident has

been a big lesson to me. I believe I am a better man now. The ego

has undergone a tremendous catharsis.

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

___________________________

 

advaitin, "Kamal Kothari" <kamal_kothari_india>

wrote:

 

In my humble opinion, in the mail under discussion, Sri Nair

> and Sri Sunder went a little overboard and got a little personal in

> trying to prove a point.

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhuvaneshwarji: Thank you for your explanation. I now understand that it

is the 'Myness" and "I" that need to be understood. If everything is 'Brahman"

there is no separate "I" and there is nothing "Mine". I appreciate your example.

Shanti