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Whence Adhyasa

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Dear Dennis, and all others interested in this subject, namaste,

 

When you originally asked the question, ’Whence Adhyasas’ you did

so in the context of a seeming problem that was raised by Douglas Fox’s’

assertion that the cause of Adhyasa could not be answered by three

possible alternatives 1) That Brahman is the cause 2) That something

independent of Brahman was the cause 3) That we ourselves are the

cause. I would like to attempt an answer to your question ‘Whence

Adhyasa’ by advocating the third choice, that I am the ‘cause’, in the

sense that: ‘I don’t know the Self, I haven’t been able to discriminate

the true nature of the Self, and due to this , I may be considered the

‘cause’ of superimposition, and to show how this in fact is Shankaras

position, (as opposed to the Mula Avidya Vadins who opted for the second

alternative, and by so doing in fact abandoned Non Duality) and to

demonstrate that by taking such a position, it does not result in the

unacceptable consequences that Fox seems to think it does. I would like

to further add that this subject is not of merely academic interest, nor

is it only a matter of semantics with no real practical outcomes, for

the subjects of Ignorance and Misconception are the very cornerstone of

Shankaras Advaita: a topic which he describes as the “anartha hetu” –the

source of all evil- and that the primary purpose of all the Vedantic

teaching is solely to remove this primary Misconception and nothing

else.

 

However, before beginning, I think a few preliminary comments are in

order. I would like to emphasize the fact that, with regard to the

contents of this post as well as all my previous posts, I make no claim

to any originality in thinking at all. Everything that I put forth is

either from the writings of Sri Shankaracharaya, Guadapada, and

Suresvaracharya, whom I take to be the true representatives of the

Advaitic Tradition’ as I understand it, as well as the voluminous

writings of Swami Satchidanandendra, the works of Swami Jnanandendra

(The former Vidya Guru of the Maharaja of Mysore), and extensive

conversations with Swami Atmanandendra, and other direct disciples of

Swami Satchidanandendra. I have made free use of these last mentioned

sources either by paraphrasing their positions on various topics, or by

reproducing their exact words without mentioning the specific texts and

verses from which they are derived. The same will be the case in this

post.

 

Whence Adhyasa?

 

 

All Indian thinkers who put forth the view that there is only one

Absolute Reality have had to grapple with the question: If there is only

the Absolute Reality, then how is it that the dualistic world of

multiplicity makes its appearance? The answer to this question has

basically been dealt with by positing some power, force, energy,

‘desire’ or primal ‘stuff’, that inheres in the very fabric of the

Absolute. Thus the Shaivites postulated a ‘Shakti’ that is inseparable

from Shiva, and which allows Shiva to perform his ‘dance of creation’.

The Kashmiri Shavaites called it “Tuiti” (The primordial seed), or

”Iccha”(the desire of Shiva). The Dzog Chen Buddhists called it

‘Stahal’( The inexhaustible inherent energy of the Absolute). Ramanuja

held that the Absolute associated with Chit(consciousness) and Achit

(insentient) is the cause of the world. Vallabhas’ Shuda-Advaita held

that the ‘inner power’ of the Absolute called ‘Maya’, was the cause for

the world. It should be noted that all these thinkers accepted the

reality of the world, and therefore it was really created, and therefore

there must be a cause for it and that cause must in some way inhere in

the very nature of the Absolute.

 

This very same pathetically ‘realistic’ type of Absolutism was

mimicked by the post Shankara Advaita Vedantins who, like their

dualistic brethren, postulated an actually existing ‘Mula Avidya’(Root

Ignorance) that inhered in the very nature of the Absolute from

beginingless time so as to account for the world of duality. In

addition, this ontological principle (Bhava-rupa, tri-guna atmika,

vastu) was hypothesized to be not only the ‘cause for creation’ but also

the ultimate cause (The Whence of Adhyasa) for all the individuals who

each had their own personal misconceptions (Adhyasas) about the nature

of the Absolute! That this explanation of the “Whence of Adhyasa” is

false, completely opposed to reason, experience and to Shankaras

radical Non-Dualism (Na sajati bedha, Na vijati bedha, Na svagati bedha)

as well as what is the correct explanation, according to Shankara, for

the cause of Adhyasa(superimposition) will be unfolded in what follows.

 

In order to understand the ‘Whence of Adhyasa’, at least according to

Shankaracharya, the first important issue that must be appreciated is

the distinction between the “Absolute

point of view”(Paramarthika Drishti) and the “Worldly or empirical point

of view” (Loukika-vyavharika Dristi). From the Absolute perspective,

the perspective of truth, there was never anyone who had ignorance, no

one had to get any sort of knowledge to remove that ignorance, and there

never was a Guru who had to teach the meaning of the Upanishads to a

seeker so that he could be released from his bondage caused by that

ignorance. This is the final position of Advaita Vedanta, and not that

in fact a really existing Ignorance that someone actually had was at

some particular point in time removed by the Shastra Pramana, and in so

doing the seeker really became liberated. (It should be noted that if in

fact this were the case then liberation would be an event in time, and

thus it would have a beginning and would therefore necessarily have an

end. It could not be eternal.) For the final realization is merely

recognizing the fact that ‘I am the Absolute Reality’, and in me there

never was, is, or will be any ignorance and therefore no need for the

removal of that ignorance at all. (Of course, the same can be said for

the concepts of Karma, Rebirth, Qualifications for the attainment of

Knowledge, Creator and his creation, or that there are three states and

we are passing through those states, etc. etc.).This distinction between

the Absolute Reality and the ‘Empirical’ viewpoint should be unfailingly

borne in mind in order to reconcile the several seeming

self-contradictory statements in Shankaras’ commentaries.

 

 

In the light of the above it becomes easy to understand that all talk

of someone having ignorance, the cause of his ignorance (The Whence of

Adhyaasa), the object of his ignorance, his need to remove that

ignorance, the means by which that ignorance is removed, are all from

the ‘worldly’ or empirical point of view’, the point of view of duality,

in fact, the point of view of ignorance.

 

To illustrate that this distinction of the Absolute and the Empirical

viewpoints in relation to the topic of Ignorance is utilized by

Shankara, the following quotes should suffice:

 

“If it should be asked ‘And to whom does this Ignorance

belong?’ We answer, ‘To you who are asking this question!’

(Objection) ‘But I have been declared to be the Isvara Himself by

the Scriptures!

( Reply) If you are thus awakened, then there never was any

Ignorance that ever belonged to anyone’.”

(Sutra Bhasya 4-1-3)

 

(Note: It is obvious that according to this view, any question about

Ignorance can arise only at the level of empirical life, where there is

duality. One who raises the question, is himself ignorant of the truth,

and so, it must be admitted that at that stage the questioner himself is

ignorant. But when it is known that Brahman or Isvara is the only

Reality, there can be neither any question nor reply concerning

ignorance or anything whatsoever. Accordingly, Shankara anticipates

another objection, i.e.: that if there really is Ignorance then the Self

would have at least one thing second to it and thus Non-Duality would be

abandoned. Shankara shows the futility of this objection thus:)

“And this defect that is attributed to the system by some,

may also be deemed to have been warded off by our reply to the question

raised above. For they are supposed to hold that if such were the case,

then the Self would have a second beside him in the shape of

Ignorance!”(SBh 4-1-3-)

(Shankara means to say that it may be granted that duality or the

empirical view is possible only so long as the unity of the Self is not

yet known, but at the transcendental level of Absolute Reality, there is

no duality or ignorance that ever existed at all, and therefore Non

Duality stands unimpeded.)

 

 

So it is from this empirical perspective alone that Shankara begins

his teachings about Ignorance or misconception. And from this

perspective Ignorance is not a ‘theory’ that Shankara concocted so as to

be able to explain the appearance of the world of duality, nor is it

some ‘inexplicable’ (anirvachiniya) phenomena that can’t be said to be

‘existent or non-existent’ nor is it a dogmatic postulate that is to be

blindly accepted on the strength of the scriptural statements, but

rather it is a universal fact of human experience, regardless of age,

culture, race or sex. In the whole of Shankaras’ introduction to his

Sutra Bhasya, he does not quote even one scripture, or one traditional

guru as an authority, nor does he rely on any questionable logical

devices to substantiate his teaching that all worldly-empirical life is

based on a fundamental misconception.

 

 

What he does say, however, is that this fundamental misconception

(Adhyasa), the misconception of mixing up the Self and the Non-Self, the

subject and the object, the knower and the known, (even though it is

admittedly opposed to all reason) is a FACT of universal experience

(“sarva loka pratikshaha”). What he intents to indicate by this is

that although the Self is the subject and conscious, and the Not-Self is

the object and of a completely opposed nature to the subject, just like

darkness and light (tamasah prakashavad) and it is therefore reasonable

that they should not be mixed up, nevertheless, all people without

exception and regardless of their intellectual capacities, have

naturally and uncritically mixed these two completely different and

mutually opposed entities, and in so doing are carrying out their

worldly lives in the form of ‘I am this’ and ‘this is mine’. To

clarify: You, the reader, are now presumably convinced that you are

sitting in front of your computer screens, reading this post, and

evaluating the veracity of the assertions that are being made. But for

you to be sitting, it is necessary that you have accepted the idea that

you are either the body or at least the idea that you have a body. For

you to be reading this post, the minimum requirement would be to accept

the fact that you have the ‘sense of sight’, and for you to evaluate the

correctness or falsity of my assertions, it is absolutely necessary that

you have a mind. Yet the idea that you have a body, senses or mind can

only come about as a result of not discriminating the Subject from the

object, the knower and the known, the Self and the not-Self, and it is

the misconception (Adhyasa) or mixing up of these two categories into

one identified entity that is the root cause for all of Samsara. It

alone is the’ knot that binds’, the Himalayan blunder that serves as the

cause for birth and death, for hunger and thirst, for old age and

disease, for confusion and doubt, or as Shankara calls it: the “source

of all evil”. This and only this is the principle meaning of Ignorance

according to Shankara,: i.e Adhyasa is the mutual superimposition of the

Self and the Not-Self along with the mixing of their distinct qualities

on each other.

 

Now, Dennis, we can begin to tackle the question ‘Whence Adhyasa.

It is a question that can be interpreted as: ‘ O.K let us grant that

Adyhasa is the mutual superimposition of the Self and Non-Self, and let

us also grant that because of this Adhyasa all worldly life is

proceeding, and not only that, let us also grant that due to Adhyasa all

‘spiritual life’ (Vaidika Vyvahara) is proceeding, such as the teachings

concerning injunctions (Vidhis) and prohibitions (pratishedas), Karmas

and meditations as well as the principle Upanishadic teaching concerning

the knowledge of the Self, and how this relates to bondage and release

(Bunda Moksha Vyvahara), but the question now is: What is the ‘cause’

for this misconception itself? Why do we superimpose the Self and the

Not-Self? What is the reason for this Adhyasa to come about in the first

place?

 

Shankaracharya never explicitly poses the question “What is the

cause for

misconception?” Nevertheless he leaves no doubt in the mind of his

readers how exactly this question of the Whence of Adhyasa is to be

dealt with. For, to the questions ‘Why do the common people commit or

entertain Adhyasa? Why to they wrongly reckon the Self and the Not-Self

each for the other? The answers are to be found in the following

quotations:

 

 

1) “Even though it is not reasonable that people should misconceive

the Self for the Not- Self, the worldly people BY NATURE (Naisargika) do

have a misconception with regard to the Self and the Not-Self by

misconceiving one in the other mutually as also misconceiving the

qualities (Dharmas) of each in the other; BECAUSE OF THE REASON THAT

THEY HAVE NOT DISCRIMINATED (AVIVEKENA) their qualities which are

extremely different, as also those entities (Dharmis) which have those

qualities, one from the other.-They have mixed up the Real and the

Unreal and are carrying on their workaday transactions NATURALLY due to

wrong knowledge(Mithyaajnana nimitaha) in the forms of ‘I am this” and

‘This is mine’..” (Sutra Bha. Adh.Bha. 1. ‘Intro to Brahma Sutra

Commentary 2nd paragraph)

 

Here it is evident that Shankara wants to say that this misconception

is natural. In other words, he is saying that it is the very nature of

the human mind to confound the Self for the Not-Self whenever it

functions. It is just like saying ‘it is the nature of water to flow

down hill’ why? What is the ‘cause’ for its tendency to flow down a

hill? Let us say that it does this ‘nuturally’. Because that is what

water always does. Though waters’ tendency to flow down a hill can be

said to be its nature, this should not be interpreted as indicating

that this is the intrinsic, inalienable nature of water, for water can,

under some peculiar circumstances, flow up a hill. And it is in this

sense alone that Shankara says that this misconception is ‘natural’ to

the human mind, and not that it can never get rid of this tendency to

have a misonception regarding the Self and the Not Self.

 

Now, if further pursued, we ask the question what is the ‘cause’

for this natural tendency of the human mind to misconceive the Subject

and the Object, the Real and the Unreal, Shankara replies: ‘It is due to

the fact that we haven’t discriminated (Avivekena) between the two.

Because we have not clearly and distinctively determined what exactly is

the Real Self, and what exactly is the Unreal Not-Self, because of this,

because of not knowing that the Self is the only Reality and because of

not knowing that the Not Self is completely Unreal and therefore never

existed as a second thing besides the Self, due to this ‘CAUSE’ of not

knowing (Jnana Abava, Agrahana ), due to the ‘reason’ of not having the

Knowledge of the Self, we are all misconceiving it. In other words, it

amounts to his saying that the inability to distinguish between the

Atman and Anatman, Self and Not-Self is the primary ignorance. Because

of this primary ignorance, of not knowing (Agrahana) or absence of

correct knowledge (Jnana Abava), this primary Ignorance itself is

responsible for the “wrong knowledge” (Mithya Jnana), the misconception

(Adhyasa) about the Self.

 

One could object to this explanation on the grounds that if

“misconception is an ‘effect’ that really exists, then its cause must be

something that really ‘exists’. Its’ ‘cause’ can’t be something that is

a mere absence, a non–existent ‘cause’ such as not-knowing (Agrahana) or

absence of knowledge (Jnana Abava). For everyone adheres to the rule

that from non–existence, existence can never come, without an existing

cause there can never be an existing effect, and therefore the ‘cause’

must be an existent, a material something, a positive entity. But this

objection is the outcome of a confusion about ontological causality and

epistemological ‘causality’. And while it is true that for every

material effect, a material cause is necessitated (a pot needs its clay

and a tree needs its seed), in the case of epistemological ‘causality’

the cause of ‘not knowing’ is quite sufficient to account for the effect

of misconceiving. Let us examine a common example: When one mistakes a

rope for a snake, if one were to enquire as to the ‘cause’ of that

mistake, it would be quite reasonable to reply that “Due to the cause of

‘not knowing’ that it is a rope, the effect of mistaking it for a snake

has taken place. In the same exact way it is perfectly intelligible to

assert that due to the ‘cause’ of not knowing the Self , you have

mistaken it for the Not-Self.

 

And again:

 

“The Field (Kshetra) and the Field Knower (Kshetrajna) means the

Not-Self which is the object (vishaya) , and the Self, which is the

Subject (vishayi) respectively; although both of these are of different

essential natures, having misconceived (Adhyasa) each for the other, and

their respective qualities (Dharmas) mutually in each other, is itself

their ‘union’, their ‘association’, their ‘contact’ (Samyoga). For this

association, the absence or lack of not distinguishing (Viveka Abava)

between the essential nature of the Not- Self (Kshetra Svarupa) and the

essential nature of the Self (Keshtrajna Svarupa) IS ITELF THE ‘CAUSE’.

Just like the the ‘contact’ of a ‘snake’ or ‘silver’ etc., in the

rope, shell, etc;-- a ‘contact’ of the nature of a misconception, owing

to want of discrimination between the two.” (Gita Bha. 13-26)

 

In this quotation (which is basically a re-echo of his Adhyasa

Bhashaya) Shankara makes it even clearer, if that is possible, that the

only reason, or ‘cause’ for our misconceiving the Self is merely because

we no not know the Self. If we in fact knew the Self, it would not be

possible to misconceive it as anything else. Just as in the case of the

mistaken knowledge about the misconceived ‘snake’. That misconception

could never arise without there being an absence of knowledge with

regard to the fact that all that is there, all that was there, all that

will be there, is the rope alone. The ‘snake’ was no doubt an ‘effect’

and the absence of knowledge with regard to the rope can be considered

to be the ‘cause’ of the snake, but this cause is not a positively

existing material ‘thing’ some ontological entity needed to account for

the effect called a ‘misconceived snake’. An important corollary of

this illustration of the rope-snake is that once we do get the true

knowledge of the rope, the ‘objective effect’ of the absence of

knowledge ie ” the ‘externally existing snake’, as well as the

subjective misconception that the rope is a snake, are immediately

removed. In the same way, once we get the true knowledge of the Self,

the ‘objective effect’ i.e.: the world of duality, the world of time

space and causality, the world of many agents, enjoyers and knowers, as

well as the the subjective misconception that what is really the Self

alone, is the world of duality, are both immediately removed. Only the

Non-Dual Self remains.

 

However, there is also a significant distinction that should be

noted between this worldly illustration about misconception and the

correct knowledge regarding the rope-snake, as opposed to that which is

being illustrated about the misconception (Avidya) and correct knowledge

(Vidya) regarding the Self. Before we misconceived the rope as a snake,

we were knowers, and after we determine the true nature of the rope and

get its correct knowledge, we still remain as knowers, and there is

still the possibility that we could have misconceptions in the future

with regard to a number of things, including another rope. But in the

case of the knowledge of the Self, once we have determined the true Non

Dual nature of the Self, all of duality is removed for good, so that the

duality of a knower, his means of knowledge, as well as the objects of

knowledge no longer remains, and thus there is no possibility that any

future misconceptions could arise with regard to the Self, or anything

else that was previously misconceived to be existing as a second

something in relation to the Self. Knowership is the outcome of

superimposing (adhyasa) the Self and the mind. All talk of means of

knowledge and objects of knowledge are dependent on a knowership. And

knowereship itself depends on Adhyasa, so once this misconception is

sublated by the knowledge of the Non-Dual Self, all the empirical

dealings of ‘knower’, ‘means of knowledge’, and ‘known;(Pramatru,

pramana, premeya vyavahara) ceases to be.

 

There is also another question that makes its appearance when one takes

the position that absence of knowledge of the Self is the cause for

misconceiving the Self (The Whence Of Adhyasa): To have an absence of

knowledge with regard to some object of knowledge, and to misconceive an

object of knowledge as something else, requires either the existence of

a mind, or to put it in Fox’s term, it requires ‘some ‘one’ who is doing

the misconceiving’. It would then mean that that which is superimposed,

either the mind, or the individual, both of which are already

superimposed on the Self, would be the entities that are doing the

superimposition. The superimposed is doing the superimposing? This is

the objection: and while at first glance this objection seems valid,

because it exposes the defect of an apparent mutual dependency that is

being relied upon. The supposed defect of saying that you need a mind to

do any type of superimposing, and at the same time asserting that the

mind itself is a superimposed thing. But let us examine the rope snake

example once again. It is not the case that we first have a

misconception that there is a snake, and then after that misconception

the snake appears. For the appearance of the snake and the misconception

are simultaneous. There is no appearance of a snake without the

misconception, and there is no misconception without the appearance of

the snake. In the same way there is no Adhyasa without the appearance of

the mind, and there is no appearance of the mind without Adhyasa. When

Adhyasa is removed the mind is removed, and when there is no mind there

is no adhyasa. The same can be said with equal validity regarding the

individual; There is no individual without adhyasa and there is no

adhyasa without the individual And this in fact is our experience.

Whenever the mind makes its appearance it does so with the conviction

that Duality is real. With the conviction that it is a knower and there

is an independent world which can be known. But when the mind makes its

disappearance, as in the state of deep sleep, faint, coma or nirvikalpa

samadhi, there is no more any Adhyasa or misconceptions, and also no

dualistic dealing of a knower knowing something, no mind and no

individuality.

 

And while this answer of Shankaras’ to the question ‘What is the cause

for Adhyasa’ is both simple and elegant and in perfect agreement with

universal experience, as well as the intelligibility of his claim that

this Adhyasa can be totally removed by correct knowledge, this teaching

may not feel satisfying to those who have a propensity towards realism

and to convoluted hypotheses and unsubstantiated postulates, and would

prefer to see the profound teachings of Advaita Vedanta degraded to the

level of a speculative theological system that requires of its adherents

both blind belief and unquestioning submission to the authority of the

Scripture and the Guru. They may instead prefer to dogmatically assert

(while no other system of philosophy, darshana, or religion, has ever

thought it necessary to put forth such a view) that instead of ‘not

knowing’ being the cause for Adhyasa, there is an indescribable,

inconceivable beginingless and endless power, that has the capacity to

cover the Absolute and project the world, an ontological entity (not

something totally false or unreal), made up of three gunas, and which

cannot be described as existent nor non-existent, and which is a Shakti

that inheres in the very nature of the Absolute! An unbelievable view

that Shankara never even hinted at in all of his writings! So be it.

But I must end this post by asking them to sincerely enquire, in their

own hearts as seekers of truth, what is the answer to just one question?

Forget about what Shankara may or may not have said on the subject, put

aside what any ‘tradition’ or Swami may have declared, and ask

yourself: How would it be possible for Knowledge to remove such an

entity?? Can knowledge really get rid of some material (Upadana Karana)

‘thing’ (Bhava Rupa) that actually exists from beginingless time?? Just

answer that. If there is a reasonable answer to this question, I eagerly

wait to hear about it.

 

Om Tat Sat

Atmachaitanya

 

P.S. ‘ How the Shastra is the only means of knowledge for the Self’ is

coming

Dear Dennis, and all others interested in the subject, namaste,

 

When you originally asked the question, ’Whence Adhyasas’ you did

so in the context of a seeming problem that was raised by Douglas Fox’s’

assertion that the cause of Adhyasa could not be answered by three

possible alternatives 1) That Brahman is the cause 2) That something

independent of Brahman was the cause 3) That we ourselves are the

cause. I would like to attempt an answer to your question ‘Whence

Adhyasa’ by advocating the third choice, that I am the ‘cause’, in the

sense that: ‘I don’t know the Self, I haven’t been able to discriminate

the true nature of the Self, and due to this , I may be considered the

‘cause’ of superimposition, and to show how this in fact is Shankaras

position, (as opposed to the Mula Avidya Vadins who opted for the second

alternative, and by so doing in fact abandoned Non Duality) and to

demonstrate that by taking such a position, it does not result in the

unacceptable consequences that Fox seems to think it does. I would like

to further add that this subject is not of merely academic interest, nor

is it only a matter of semantics with no real practical outcomes, for

the subjects of Ignorance and Misconception are the very cornerstone of

Shankaras Advaita: a topic which he describes as the “anartha hetu” –the

source of all evil- and that the primary purpose of all the Vedantic

teaching is solely to remove this primary Misconception and nothing

else.

 

However, before beginning, I think a few preliminary comments are in

order. I would like to emphasize the fact that, with regard to the

contents of this post as well as all my previous posts, I make no claim

to any originality in thinking at all. Everything that I put forth is

either from the writings of Sri Shankaracharaya, Guadapada, and

Suresvaracharya, whom I take to be the true representatives of the

Advaitic Tradition’ as I understand it, as well as the voluminous

writings of Swami Satchidanandendra, the works of Swami Jnanandendra

(The former Vidya Guru of the Maharaja of Mysore), and extensive

conversations with Swami Atmanandendra, and other direct disciples of

Swami Satchidanandendra. I have made free use of these last mentioned

sources either by paraphrasing their positions on various topics, or by

reproducing their exact words without mentioning the specific texts and

verses from which they are derived. The same will be the case in this

post.

 

Whence Adhyasa?

 

 

All Indian thinkers who put forth the view that there is only one

Absolute Reality have had to grapple with the question: If there is only

the Absolute Reality, then how is it that the dualistic world of

multiplicity makes its appearance? The answer to this question has

basically been dealt with by positing some power, force, energy,

‘desire’ or primal ‘stuff’, that inheres in the very fabric of the

Absolute. Thus the Shaivites postulated a ‘Shakti’ that is inseparable

from Shiva, and which allows Shiva to perform his ‘dance of creation’.

The Kashmiri Shavaites called it “Tuiti” (The primordial seed), or

”Iccha”(the desire of Shiva). The Dzog Chen Buddhists called it

‘Stahal’( The inexhaustible inherent energy of the Absolute). Ramanuja

held that the Absolute associated with Chit(consciousness) and Achit

(insentient) is the cause of the world. Vallabhas’ Shuda-Advaita held

that the ‘inner power’ of the Absolute called ‘Maya’, was the cause for

the world. It should be noted that all these thinkers accepted the

reality of the world, and therefore it was really created, and therefore

there must be a cause for it and that cause must in some way inhere in

the very nature of the Absolute.

 

This very same pathetically ‘realistic’ type of Absolutism was

mimicked by the post Shankara Advaita Vedantins who, like their

dualistic brethren, postulated an actually existing ‘Mula Avidya’(Root

Ignorance) that inhered in the very nature of the Absolute from

beginingless time so as to account for the world of duality. In

addition, this ontological principle (Bhava-rupa, tri-guna atmika,

vastu) was hypothesized to be not only the ‘cause for creation’ but also

the ultimate cause (The Whence of Adhyasa) for all the individuals who

each had their own personal misconceptions (Adhyasas) about the nature

of the Absolute! That this explanation of the “Whence of Adhyasa” is

false, completely opposed to reason, experience and to Shankaras

radical Non-Dualism (Na sajati bedha, Na vijati bedha, Na svagati bedha)

as well as what is the correct explanation, according to Shankara, for

the cause of Adhyasa(superimposition) will be unfolded in what follows.

 

In order to understand the ‘Whence of Adhyasa’, at least according to

Shankaracharya, the first important issue that must be appreciated is

the distinction between the “Absolute

point of view”(Paramarthika Drishti) and the “Worldly or empirical point

of view” (Loukika-vyavharika Dristi). From the Absolute perspective,

the perspective of truth, there was never anyone who had ignorance, no

one had to get any sort of knowledge to remove that ignorance, and there

never was a Guru who had to teach the meaning of the Upanishads to a

seeker so that he could be released from his bondage caused by that

ignorance. This is the final position of Advaita Vedanta, and not that

in fact a really existing Ignorance that someone actually had was at

some particular point in time removed by the Shastra Pramana, and in so

doing the seeker really became liberated. (It should be noted that if in

fact this were the case then liberation would be an event in time, and

thus it would have a beginning and would therefore necessarily have an

end. It could not be eternal.) For the final realization is merely

recognizing the fact that ‘I am the Absolute Reality’, and in me there

never was, is, or will be any ignorance and therefore no need for the

removal of that ignorance at all. (Of course, the same can be said for

the concepts of Karma, Rebirth, Qualifications for the attainment of

Knowledge, Creator and his creation, or that there are three states and

we are passing through those states, etc. etc.).This distinction between

the Absolute Reality and the ‘Empirical’ viewpoint should be unfailingly

borne in mind in order to reconcile the several seeming

self-contradictory statements in Shankaras’ commentaries.

 

 

In the light of the above it becomes easy to understand that all talk

of someone having ignorance, the cause of his ignorance (The Whence of

Adhyaasa), the object of his ignorance, his need to remove that

ignorance, the means by which that ignorance is removed, are all from

the ‘worldly’ or empirical point of view’, the point of view of duality,

in fact, the point of view of ignorance.

 

To illustrate that this distinction of the Absolute and the Empirical

viewpoints in relation to the topic of Ignorance is utilized by

Shankara, the following quotes should suffice:

 

“If it should be asked ‘And to whom does this Ignorance

belong?’ We answer, ‘To you who are asking this question!’

(Objection) ‘But I have been declared to be the Isvara Himself by

the Scriptures!

( Reply) If you are thus awakened, then there never was any

Ignorance that ever belonged to anyone’.”

(Sutra Bhasya 4-1-3)

 

(Note: It is obvious that according to this view, any question about

Ignorance can arise only at the level of empirical life, where there is

duality. One who raises the question, is himself ignorant of the truth,

and so, it must be admitted that at that stage the questioner himself is

ignorant. But when it is known that Brahman or Isvara is the only

Reality, there can be neither any question nor reply concerning

ignorance or anything whatsoever. Accordingly, Shankara anticipates

another objection, i.e.: that if there really is Ignorance then the Self

would have at least one thing second to it and thus Non-Duality would be

abandoned. Shankara shows the futility of this objection thus:)

“And this defect that is attributed to the system by some,

may also be deemed to have been warded off by our reply to the question

raised above. For they are supposed to hold that if such were the case,

then the Self would have a second beside him in the shape of

Ignorance!”(SBh 4-1-3-)

(Shankara means to say that it may be granted that duality or the

empirical view is possible only so long as the unity of the Self is not

yet known, but at the transcendental level of Absolute Reality, there is

no duality or ignorance that ever existed at all, and therefore Non

Duality stands unimpeded.)

 

 

So it is from this empirical perspective alone that Shankara begins

his teachings about Ignorance or misconception. And from this

perspective Ignorance is not a ‘theory’ that Shankara concocted so as to

be able to explain the appearance of the world of duality, nor is it

some ‘inexplicable’ (anirvachiniya) phenomena that can’t be said to be

‘existent or non-existent’ nor is it a dogmatic postulate that is to be

blindly accepted on the strength of the scriptural statements, but

rather it is a universal fact of human experience, regardless of age,

culture, race or sex. In the whole of Shankaras’ introduction to his

Sutra Bhasya, he does not quote even one scripture, or one traditional

guru as an authority, nor does he rely on any questionable logical

devices to substantiate his teaching that all worldly-empirical life is

based on a fundamental misconception.

 

 

What he does say, however, is that this fundamental misconception

(Adhyasa), the misconception of mixing up the Self and the Non-Self, the

subject and the object, the knower and the known, (even though it is

admittedly opposed to all reason) is a FACT of universal experience

(“sarva loka pratikshaha”). What he intents to indicate by this is

that although the Self is the subject and conscious, and the Not-Self is

the object and of a completely opposed nature to the subject, just like

darkness and light (tamasah prakashavad) and it is therefore reasonable

that they should not be mixed up, nevertheless, all people without

exception and regardless of their intellectual capacities, have

naturally and uncritically mixed these two completely different and

mutually opposed entities, and in so doing are carrying out their

worldly lives in the form of ‘I am this’ and ‘this is mine’. To

clarify: You, the reader, are now presumably convinced that you are

sitting in front of your computer screens, reading this post, and

evaluating the veracity of the assertions that are being made. But for

you to be sitting, it is necessary that you have accepted the idea that

you are either the body or at least the idea that you have a body. For

you to be reading this post, the minimum requirement would be to accept

the fact that you have the ‘sense of sight’, and for you to evaluate the

correctness or falsity of my assertions, it is absolutely necessary that

you have a mind. Yet the idea that you have a body, senses or mind can

only come about as a result of not discriminating the Subject from the

object, the knower and the known, the Self and the not-Self, and it is

the misconception (Adhyasa) or mixing up of these two categories into

one identified entity that is the root cause for all of Samsara. It

alone is the’ knot that binds’, the Himalayan blunder that serves as the

cause for birth and death, for hunger and thirst, for old age and

disease, for confusion and doubt, or as Shankara calls it: the “source

of all evil”. This and only this is the principle meaning of Ignorance

according to Shankara,: i.e Adhyasa is the mutual superimposition of the

Self and the Not-Self along with the mixing of their distinct qualities

on each other.

 

Now, Dennis, we can begin to tackle the question ‘Whence Adhyasa.

It is a question that can be interpreted as: ‘ O.K let us grant that

Adyhasa is the mutual superimposition of the Self and Non-Self, and let

us also grant that because of this Adhyasa all worldly life is

proceeding, and not only that, let us also grant that due to Adhyasa all

‘spiritual life’ (Vaidika Vyvahara) is proceeding, such as the teachings

concerning injunctions (Vidhis) and prohibitions (pratishedas), Karmas

and meditations as well as the principle Upanishadic teaching concerning

the knowledge of the Self, and how this relates to bondage and release

(Bunda Moksha Vyvahara), but the question now is: What is the ‘cause’

for this misconception itself? Why do we superimpose the Self and the

Not-Self? What is the reason for this Adhyasa to come about in the first

place?

 

Shankaracharya never explicitly poses the question “What is the

cause for

misconception?” Nevertheless he leaves no doubt in the mind of his

readers how exactly this question of the Whence of Adhyasa is to be

dealt with. For, to the questions ‘Why do the common people commit or

entertain Adhyasa? Why to they wrongly reckon the Self and the Not-Self

each for the other? The answers are to be found in the following

quotations:

 

 

1) “Even though it is not reasonable that people should misconceive

the Self for the Not- Self, the worldly people BY NATURE (Naisargika) do

have a misconception with regard to the Self and the Not-Self by

misconceiving one in the other mutually as also misconceiving the

qualities (Dharmas) of each in the other; BECAUSE OF THE REASON THAT

THEY HAVE NOT DISCRIMINATED (AVIVEKENA) their qualities which are

extremely different, as also those entities (Dharmis) which have those

qualities, one from the other.-They have mixed up the Real and the

Unreal and are carrying on their workaday transactions NATURALLY due to

wrong knowledge(Mithyaajnana nimitaha) in the forms of ‘I am this” and

‘This is mine’..” (Sutra Bha. Adh.Bha. 1. ‘Intro to Brahma Sutra

Commentary 2nd paragraph)

 

Here it is evident that Shankara wants to say that this misconception

is natural. In other words, he is saying that it is the very nature of

the human mind to confound the Self for the Not-Self whenever it

functions. It is just like saying ‘it is the nature of water to flow

down hill’ why? What is the ‘cause’ for its tendency to flow down a

hill? Let us say that it does this ‘nuturally’. Because that is what

water always does. Though waters’ tendency to flow down a hill can be

said to be its nature, this should not be interpreted as indicating

that this is the intrinsic, inalienable nature of water, for water can,

under some peculiar circumstances, flow up a hill. And it is in this

sense alone that Shankara says that this misconception is ‘natural’ to

the human mind, and not that it can never get rid of this tendency to

have a misonception regarding the Self and the Not Self.

 

Now, if further pursued, we ask the question what is the ‘cause’

for this natural tendency of the human mind to misconceive the Subject

and the Object, the Real and the Unreal, Shankara replies: ‘It is due to

the fact that we haven’t discriminated (Avivekena) between the two.

Because we have not clearly and distinctively determined what exactly is

the Real Self, and what exactly is the Unreal Not-Self, because of this,

because of not knowing that the Self is the only Reality and because of

not knowing that the Not Self is completely Unreal and therefore never

existed as a second thing besides the Self, due to this ‘CAUSE’ of not

knowing (Jnana Abava, Agrahana ), due to the ‘reason’ of not having the

Knowledge of the Self, we are all misconceiving it. In other words, it

amounts to his saying that the inability to distinguish between the

Atman and Anatman, Self and Not-Self is the primary ignorance. Because

of this primary ignorance, of not knowing (Agrahana) or absence of

correct knowledge (Jnana Abava), this primary Ignorance itself is

responsible for the “wrong knowledge” (Mithya Jnana), the misconception

(Adhyasa) about the Self.

 

One could object to this explanation on the grounds that if

“misconception is an ‘effect’ that really exists, then its cause must be

something that really ‘exists’. Its’ ‘cause’ can’t be something that is

a mere absence, a non–existent ‘cause’ such as not-knowing (Agrahana) or

absence of knowledge (Jnana Abava). For everyone adheres to the rule

that from non–existence, existence can never come, without an existing

cause there can never be an existing effect, and therefore the ‘cause’

must be an existent, a material something, a positive entity. But this

objection is the outcome of a confusion about ontological causality and

epistemological ‘causality’. And while it is true that for every

material effect, a material cause is necessitated (a pot needs its clay

and a tree needs its seed), in the case of epistemological ‘causality’

the cause of ‘not knowing’ is quite sufficient to account for the effect

of misconceiving. Let us examine a common example: When one mistakes a

rope for a snake, if one were to enquire as to the ‘cause’ of that

mistake, it would be quite reasonable to reply that “Due to the cause of

‘not knowing’ that it is a rope, the effect of mistaking it for a snake

has taken place. In the same exact way it is perfectly intelligible to

assert that due to the ‘cause’ of not knowing the Self , you have

mistaken it for the Not-Self.

 

And again:

 

“The Field (Kshetra) and the Field Knower (Kshetrajna) means the

Not-Self which is the object (vishaya) , and the Self, which is the

Subject (vishayi) respectively; although both of these are of different

essential natures, having misconceived (Adhyasa) each for the other, and

their respective qualities (Dharmas) mutually in each other, is itself

their ‘union’, their ‘association’, their ‘contact’ (Samyoga). For this

association, the absence or lack of not distinguishing (Viveka Abava)

between the essential nature of the Not- Self (Kshetra Svarupa) and the

essential nature of the Self (Keshtrajna Svarupa) IS ITELF THE ‘CAUSE’.

Just like the the ‘contact’ of a ‘snake’ or ‘silver’ etc., in the

rope, shell, etc;-- a ‘contact’ of the nature of a misconception, owing

to want of discrimination between the two.” (Gita Bha. 13-26)

 

In this quotation (which is basically a re-echo of his Adhyasa

Bhashaya) Shankara makes it even clearer, if that is possible, that the

only reason, or ‘cause’ for our misconceiving the Self is merely because

we no not know the Self. If we in fact knew the Self, it would not be

possible to misconceive it as anything else. Just as in the case of the

mistaken knowledge about the misconceived ‘snake’. That misconception

could never arise without there being an absence of knowledge with

regard to the fact that all that is there, all that was there, all that

will be there, is the rope alone. The ‘snake’ was no doubt an ‘effect’

and the absence of knowledge with regard to the rope can be considered

to be the ‘cause’ of the snake, but this cause is not a positively

existing material ‘thing’ some ontological entity needed to account for

the effect called a ‘misconceived snake’. An important corollary of

this illustration of the rope-snake is that once we do get the true

knowledge of the rope, the ‘objective effect’ of the absence of

knowledge ie ” the ‘externally existing snake’, as well as the

subjective misconception that the rope is a snake, are immediately

removed. In the same way, once we get the true knowledge of the Self,

the ‘objective effect’ i.e.: the world of duality, the world of time

space and causality, the world of many agents, enjoyers and knowers, as

well as the the subjective misconception that what is really the Self

alone, is the world of duality, are both immediately removed. Only the

Non-Dual Self remains.

 

However, there is also a significant distinction that should be

noted between this worldly illustration about misconception and the

correct knowledge regarding the rope-snake, as opposed to that which is

being illustrated about the misconception (Avidya) and correct knowledge

(Vidya) regarding the Self. Before we misconceived the rope as a snake,

we were knowers, and after we determine the true nature of the rope and

get its correct knowledge, we still remain as knowers, and there is

still the possibility that we could have misconceptions in the future

with regard to a number of things, including another rope. But in the

case of the knowledge of the Self, once we have determined the true Non

Dual nature of the Self, all of duality is removed for good, so that the

duality of a knower, his means of knowledge, as well as the objects of

knowledge no longer remains, and thus there is no possibility that any

future misconceptions could arise with regard to the Self, or anything

else that was previously misconceived to be existing as a second

something in relation to the Self. Knowership is the outcome of

superimposing (adhyasa) the Self and the mind. All talk of means of

knowledge and objects of knowledge are dependent on a knowership. And

knowereship itself depends on Adhyasa, so once this misconception is

sublated by the knowledge of the Non-Dual Self, all the empirical

dealings of ‘knower’, ‘means of knowledge’, and ‘known;(Pramatru,

pramana, premeya vyavahara) ceases to be.

 

There is also another question that makes its appearance when one takes

the position that absence of knowledge of the Self is the cause for

misconceiving the Self (The Whence Of Adhyasa): To have an absence of

knowledge with regard to some object of knowledge, and to misconceive an

object of knowledge as something else, requires either the existence of

a mind, or to put it in Fox’s term, it requires ‘some ‘one’ who is doing

the misconceiving’. It would then mean that that which is superimposed,

either the mind, or the individual, both of which are already

superimposed on the Self, would be the entities that are doing the

superimposition. The superimposed is doing the superimposing? This is

the objection: and while at first glance this objection seems valid,

because it exposes the defect of an apparent mutual dependency that is

being relied upon. The supposed defect of saying that you need a mind to

do any type of superimposing, and at the same time asserting that the

mind itself is a superimposed thing. But let us examine the rope snake

example once again. It is not the case that we first have a

misconception that there is a snake, and then after that misconception

the snake appears. For the appearance of the snake and the misconception

are simultaneous. There is no appearance of a snake without the

misconception, and there is no misconception without the appearance of

the snake. In the same way there is no Adhyasa without the appearance of

the mind, and there is no appearance of the mind without Adhyasa. When

Adhyasa is removed the mind is removed, and when there is no mind there

is no adhyasa. The same can be said with equal validity regarding the

individual; There is no individual without adhyasa and there is no

adhyasa without the individual And this in fact is our experience.

Whenever the mind makes its appearance it does so with the conviction

that Duality is real. With the conviction that it is a knower and there

is an independent world which can be known. But when the mind makes its

disappearance, as in the state of deep sleep, faint, coma or nirvikalpa

samadhi, there is no more any Adhyasa or misconceptions, and also no

dualistic dealing of a knower knowing something, no mind and no

individuality.

 

And while this answer of Shankaras’ to the question ‘What is the cause

for Adhyasa’ is both simple and elegant and in perfect agreement with

universal experience, as well as the intelligibility of his claim that

this Adhyasa can be totally removed by correct knowledge, this teaching

may not feel satisfying to those who have a propensity towards realism

and to convoluted hypotheses and unsubstantiated postulates, and would

prefer to see the profound teachings of Advaita Vedanta degraded to the

level of a speculative theological system that requires of its adherents

both blind belief and unquestioning submission to the authority of the

Scripture and the Guru. They may instead prefer to dogmatically assert

(while no other system of philosophy, darshana, or religion, has ever

thought it necessary to put forth such a view) that instead of ‘not

knowing’ being the cause for Adhyasa, there is an indescribable,

inconceivable beginingless and endless power, that has the capacity to

cover the Absolute and project the world, an ontological entity (not

something totally false or unreal), made up of three gunas, and which

cannot be described as existent nor non-existent, and which is a Shakti

that inheres in the very nature of the Absolute! An unbelievable view

that Shankara never even hinted at in all of his writings! So be it.

But I must end this post by asking them to sincerely enquire, in their

own hearts as seekers of truth, what is the answer to just one question?

Forget about what Shankara may or may not have said on the subject, put

aside what any ‘tradition’ or Swami may have declared, and ask

yourself: How would it be possible for Knowledge to remove such an

entity?? Can knowledge really get rid of some material (Upadana Karana)

‘thing’ (Bhava Rupa) that actually exists from beginingless time?? Just

answer that. If there is a reasonable answer to this question, I eagerly

wait to hear about it.

 

Om Tat Sat

Atmachaitanya

 

P.S. ‘ How the Shastra is the only means of knowledge for the Self’ is

coming

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You raise so many great points that I just could not resist to join your

conversation.

 

In a message dated 3/24/02 4:24:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,

stadri writes:

 

stadri:

Whence Adhyasa?

 

 

All Indian thinkers who put forth the view that there is only one

Absolute Reality have had to grapple with the question: If there is only

the Absolute Reality, then how is it that the dualistic world of

multiplicity makes its appearance? The answer to this question has

basically been dealt with by positing some power, force, energy,

'desire' or primal 'stuff', that inheres in the very fabric of the

Absolute. Thus the Shaivites postulated a 'Shakti' that is inseparable

from Shiva, and which allows Shiva to perform his 'dance of creation'.

The Kashmiri Shavaites called it "Tuiti" (The primordial seed), or

"Iccha"(the desire of Shiva). The Dzog Chen Buddhists called it

'Stahal'( The inexhaustible inherent energy of the Absolute). Ramanuja

held that the Absolute associated with Chit(consciousness) and Achit

(insentient) is the cause of the world. Vallabhas' Shuda-Advaita held

that the 'inner power' of the Absolute called 'Maya', was the cause for

the world. It should be noted that all these thinkers accepted the

reality of the world, and therefore it was really created, and therefore

there must be a cause for it and that cause must in some way inhere in

the very nature of the Absolute.

 

stadri:

This very same pathetically 'realistic' type of Absolutism was

mimicked by the post Shankara Advaita Vedantins who, like their

dualistic brethren, postulated an actually existing 'Mula Avidya'(Root

Ignorance) that inhered in the very nature of the Absolute from

beginingless time so as to account for the world of duality. In

addition, this ontological principle (Bhava-rupa, tri-guna atmika,

vastu) was hypothesized to be not only the 'cause for creation' but also

the ultimate cause (The Whence of Adhyasa) for all the individuals who

each had their own personal misconceptions (Adhyasas) about the nature

of the Absolute! That this explanation of the "Whence of Adhyasa" is

false, completely opposed to reason, experience and to Shankaras

radical Non-Dualism (Na sajati bedha, Na vijati bedha, Na svagati bedha)

as well as what is the correct explanation, according to Shankara, for

the cause of Adhyasa(superimposition) will be unfolded in what follows.

 

edmeasure:

With regard to 'Mula Avidya'above, it would seem that we would have to also

define what 'actually existing' really means. For instance, we could and

probably do considered in this context that 'Root Ignorance' exists whenever

a thought appears repeatedly, some sensible imagery of duality. We take our

stance on any issue through long term conditionings. A 'belief' arises and

thereafter we try to work out a consistent and logical intellectual (verbal

based) structure to support the idea, that is, the strong deeply impregnated

emotive 'belief' sentiments. Upon some long term reconditioning, say via

hypnotic indoctrination and/or through Pavlov like repetitions from different

culture-language settings, the nature of 'beliefs' and upheld realities

change. These various conditionings might be termed 'actually existing',

since they can change the nature of perceived forms of adhyâsa when the

conditionings change. Indeed, the yoga sutras call such conditionings,

'samskâras', a sticking sort of stuff that continually modifies world views,

i.e., filtering stuff that might be removed. Upon removal, the subtle

awareness of âtma type views begins to move to less dense brahman views.

 

stadri:

In order to understand the 'Whence of Adhyasa', at least according to

Shankaracharya, the first important issue that must be appreciated is

the distinction between the "Absolute

point of view"(Paramarthika Drishti) and the "Worldly or empirical point

of view" (Loukika-vyavharika Dristi). From the Absolute perspective,

the perspective of truth, there was never anyone who had ignorance, no

one had to get any sort of knowledge to remove that ignorance, and there

never was a Guru who had to teach the meaning of the Upanishads to a

seeker so that he could be released from his bondage caused by that

ignorance. This is the final position of Advaita Vedanta, and not that

in fact a really existing Ignorance that someone actually had was at

some particular point in time removed by the Shastra Pramana, and in so

doing the seeker really became liberated. (It should be noted that if in

fact this were the case then liberation would be an event in time, and

thus it would have a beginning and would therefore necessarily have an

end. It could not be eternal.) For the final realization is merely

recognizing the fact that 'I am the Absolute Reality', and in me there

never was, is, or will be any ignorance and therefore no need for the

removal of that ignorance at all. (Of course, the same can be said for

the concepts of Karma, Rebirth, Qualifications for the attainment of

Knowledge, Creator and his creation, or that there are three states and

we are passing through those states, etc. etc.).This distinction between

the Absolute Reality and the 'Empirical' viewpoint should be unfailingly

borne in mind in order to reconcile the several seeming

self-contradictory statements in Shankaras' commentaries.

 

edmeasure:

There can be no 'absolute perspective of truth' for absolute perspective, by

definition, contains no object of evaluation. From an 'ignorance

perspective' we can postulate that less dense views become available as we

rid ourselves of the sludge of ignorance. Moreover, such can be experienced

also. Again, by definition, if one recognizes that 'I am the Absolute

Reality', then we can be assured that we are NOT recognizing the Absolute

Reality at that moment, unless of course, the two views come up superimposed

over one another. I thank the lord for plenty of this ignorance that makes

it possible to bask in the sakti flowings of pure being and bliss. If I'm

not mistaken, 'the final position of Advaita Vedanta' goes something like a

'Movement from the fullness of Fullness to the fullness of Nothingness, and

back again', or the like. The joy of life and the full unfoldment of Sankara

comes out of such movements between duality and the transcendental, and back

and forth, again and again. To see the creator more clearly, we must

dispense with at least some of the ignorance to prod along the eventual

longer lasting superposition of the transcendental upon duality. The

distinction between the Absolute and the Empirical is absolutely held in

mind, literally giving rise to a superposition. Indeed, we need a little of

this ignorance, lesâvidya, to be able to enjoy the sakti flowings of siva's

dance.

 

stadri:

In the light of the above it becomes easy to understand that all talk

of someone having ignorance, the cause of his ignorance (The Whence of

Adhyaasa), the object of his ignorance, his need to remove that

ignorance, the means by which that ignorance is removed, are all from

the 'worldly' or empirical point of view', the point of view of duality,

in fact, the point of view of ignorance.

 

edmeasure:

Precisely. We can't speak of ignorance, or of anything else, from the point

of view of the transcendent. All this talk that we are partaking in here is

from the point of view of ignorance. Only ignorance can speak, but I think

we are looking at shades of difference here, where all the action lies.

 

stadri:

To illustrate that this distinction of the Absolute and the Empirical

viewpoints in relation to the topic of Ignorance is utilized by

Shankara, the following quotes should suffice:

 

"If it should be asked 'And to whom does this Ignorance

belong?' We answer, 'To you who are asking this question!'

(Objection) 'But I have been declared to be the Isvara Himself by

the Scriptures!

( Reply) If you are thus awakened, then there never was any

Ignorance that ever belonged to anyone'."

(Sutra Bhasya 4-1-3)

 

stadri:

(Note: It is obvious that according to this view, any question about

Ignorance can arise only at the level of empirical life, where there is

duality. One who raises the question, is himself ignorant of the truth,

and so, it must be admitted that at that stage the questioner himself is

ignorant. But when it is known that Brahman or Isvara is the only

Reality, there can be neither any question nor reply concerning

ignorance or anything whatsoever. Accordingly, Shankara anticipates

another objection, i.e.: that if there really is Ignorance then the Self

would have at least one thing second to it and thus Non-Duality would be

abandoned. Shankara shows the futility of this objection thus:)

"And this defect that is attributed to the system by some,

may also be deemed to have been warded off by our reply to the question

raised above. For they are supposed to hold that if such were the case,

then the Self would have a second beside him in the shape of

Ignorance!"(SBh 4-1-3-)

(Shankara means to say that it may be granted that duality or the

empirical view is possible only so long as the unity of the Self is not

yet known, but at the transcendental level of Absolute Reality, there is

no duality or ignorance that ever existed at all, and therefore Non

Duality stands unimpeded.)

 

edmeasure:

We again come to a critical point, that it is possible to be simultaneously

aware of pure being, that transcendental level of Absolute Reality, along

with phenomena of duality. Subject-object interrelationships can be

witnessed by that pure being aspect, that movement into brahman self. This

is an experience that can and does come up, again and again, and presumably

will eventually stay in place all of the time, in due time. We can

experience a switching back and forth from duality to transcendent reality

and back to duality, again and again. Eventually, the two start to appear

simultaneously for a time. There is a superposition. This experience is

available to all, but many would deny the possibility of so experiencing,

especially if the apparent scriptural meaning seems to rule out such a thing.

It is fruitless to try to intellectually move into such experience. There

is, must be, a most subtle initiation process, a product not devoid of

Sankara himself and of others closely surrounding him as mentioned herein.

 

stadri:

So it is from this empirical perspective alone that Shankara begins

his teachings about Ignorance or misconception. And from this

perspective Ignorance is not a 'theory' that Shankara concocted so as to

be able to explain the appearance of the world of duality, nor is it

some 'inexplicable' (anirvachiniya) phenomena that can't be said to be

'existent or non-existent' nor is it a dogmatic postulate that is to be

blindly accepted on the strength of the scriptural statements, but

rather it is a universal fact of human experience, regardless of age,

culture, race or sex. In the whole of Shankaras' introduction to his

Sutra Bhasya, he does not quote even one scripture, or one traditional

guru as an authority, nor does he rely on any questionable logical

devices to substantiate his teaching that all worldly-empirical life is

based on a fundamental misconception.

 

stadri:

What he does say, however, is that this fundamental misconception

(Adhyasa), the misconception of mixing up the Self and the Non-Self, the

subject and the object, the knower and the known, (even though it is

admittedly opposed to all reason) is a FACT of universal experience

("sarva loka pratikshaha"). What he intents to indicate by this is

that although the Self is the subject and conscious, and the Not-Self is

the object and of a completely opposed nature to the subject, just like

darkness and light (tamasah prakashavad) and it is therefore reasonable

that they should not be mixed up, nevertheless, all people without

exception and regardless of their intellectual capacities, have

naturally and uncritically mixed these two completely different and

mutually opposed entities, and in so doing are carrying out their

worldly lives in the form of 'I am this' and 'this is mine'. To

clarify: You, the reader, are now presumably convinced that you are

sitting in front of your computer screens, reading this post, and

evaluating the veracity of the assertions that are being made. But for

you to be sitting, it is necessary that you have accepted the idea that

you are either the body or at least the idea that you have a body. For

you to be reading this post, the minimum requirement would be to accept

the fact that you have the 'sense of sight', and for you to evaluate the

correctness or falsity of my assertions, it is absolutely necessary that

you have a mind. Yet the idea that you have a body, senses or mind can

only come about as a result of not discriminating the Subject from the

object, the knower and the known, the Self and the not-Self, and it is

the misconception (Adhyasa) or mixing up of these two categories into

one identified entity that is the root cause for all of Samsara. It

alone is the' knot that binds', the Himalayan blunder that serves as the

cause for birth and death, for hunger and thirst, for old age and

disease, for confusion and doubt, or as Shankara calls it: the "source

of all evil". This and only this is the principle meaning of Ignorance

according to Shankara,: i.e Adhyasa is the mutual superimposition of the

Self and the Not-Self along with the mixing of their distinct qualities

on each other.

 

edmeasure:

First, in gross ignorance, the Self and non-Self are all mixed up.

Eventually, we find them separated in both intellectual fields and

experiential fields. Then yet again, the Self and non-Self find themselves

superimposed with one another. However, this time, after getting rid of some

gross samskâras, the two are not simply unknown in some sort of gross

oblivion because of aviveka, but rather, the two distinct realities are seen

superimposed over each other.

 

stadri:

Now, Dennis, we can begin to tackle the question 'Whence Adhyasa.

It is a question that can be interpreted as: ' O.K let us grant that

Adyhasa is the mutual superimposition of the Self and Non-Self, and let

us also grant that because of this Adhyasa all worldly life is

proceeding, and not only that, let us also grant that due to Adhyasa all

'spiritual life' (Vaidika Vyvahara) is proceeding, such as the teachings

concerning injunctions (Vidhis) and prohibitions (pratishedas), Karmas

and meditations as well as the principle Upanishadic teaching concerning

the knowledge of the Self, and how this relates to bondage and release

(Bunda Moksha Vyvahara), but the question now is: What is the 'cause'

for this misconception itself? Why do we superimpose the Self and the

Not-Self? What is the reason for this Adhyasa to come about in the first

place?

 

edmeasure:

Ah! Why am I? That's a little tougher. Is it not said, 'to play'?

 

stadri:

Shankaracharya never explicitly poses the question "What is the

cause for

misconception?" Nevertheless he leaves no doubt in the mind of his

readers how exactly this question of the Whence of Adhyasa is to be

dealt with. For, to the questions 'Why do the common people commit or

entertain Adhyasa? Why to they wrongly reckon the Self and the Not-Self

each for the other? The answers are to be found in the following

quotations:

 

stadri:

1) "Even though it is not reasonable that people should misconceive

the Self for the Not- Self, the worldly people BY NATURE (Naisargika) do

have a misconception with regard to the Self and the Not-Self by

misconceiving one in the other mutually as also misconceiving the

qualities (Dharmas) of each in the other; BECAUSE OF THE REASON THAT

THEY HAVE NOT DISCRIMINATED (AVIVEKENA) their qualities which are

extremely different, as also those entities (Dharmis) which have those

qualities, one from the other.-They have mixed up the Real and the

Unreal and are carrying on their workaday transactions NATURALLY due to

wrong knowledge(Mithyaajnana nimitaha) in the forms of 'I am this" and

'This is mine'.." (Sutra Bha. Adh.Bha. 1. 'Intro to Brahma Sutra

Commentary 2nd paragraph)

 

stadri:

Here it is evident that Shankara wants to say that this misconception

is natural. In other words, he is saying that it is the very nature of

the human mind to confound the Self for the Not-Self whenever it

functions. It is just like saying 'it is the nature of water to flow

down hill' why? What is the 'cause' for its tendency to flow down a

hill? Let us say that it does this 'nuturally'. Because that is what

water always does. Though waters' tendency to flow down a hill can be

said to be its nature, this should not be interpreted as indicating

that this is the intrinsic, inalienable nature of water, for water can,

under some peculiar circumstances, flow up a hill. And it is in this

sense alone that Shankara says that this misconception is 'natural' to

the human mind, and not that it can never get rid of this tendency to

have a misonception regarding the Self and the Not Self.

 

edmeasure:

Water flows down hill because it is a law of nature. The Self non-Self

dichotomy is also a law of nature, to enjoy. The mind is that inscrutable

(so far) entity that can transform itself back and forth between the two

worlds of Self and non-Self, between the transcendent and duality. Laws of

nature can be seen in more detail if we can find a suitable language

(vocabulary) to state the propositions.

 

 

stadri:

Now, if further pursued, we ask the question what is the 'cause'

for this natural tendency of the human mind to misconceive the Subject

and the Object, the Real and the Unreal, Shankara replies: 'It is due to

the fact that we haven't discriminated (Avivekena) between the two.

Because we have not clearly and distinctively determined what exactly is

the Real Self, and what exactly is the Unreal Not-Self, because of this,

because of not knowing that the Self is the only Reality and because of

not knowing that the Not Self is completely Unreal and therefore never

existed as a second thing besides the Self, due to this 'CAUSE' of not

knowing (Jnana Abava, Agrahana ), due to the 'reason' of not having the

Knowledge of the Self, we are all misconceiving it. In other words, it

amounts to his saying that the inability to distinguish between the

Atman and Anatman, Self and Not-Self is the primary ignorance. Because

of this primary ignorance, of not knowing (Agrahana) or absence of

correct knowledge (Jnana Abava), this primary Ignorance itself is

responsible for the "wrong knowledge" (Mithya Jnana), the misconception

(Adhyasa) about the Self.

 

edmeasure:

In the end, the physicist sees all of the world as nothing but a jumble of

vibrations, sakti flows if you will, the same for consciousness. The table

is not there, rather, mostly space with a tiny ding of energy, here and

there. He almost sounds like a Vedantist. Worst, he sees particles and

anti-particles created out of nothing and later dissolving back into nothing.

The 'nothing' is yet known to be a seething broth of everything. It might

be interesting to follow mental transformations in similar ways as a

physicist follows physical transformations. After all, both are in the same

field of duality, and both seem to come out of and then stream off back into

unity.

 

stadri:

One could object to this explanation on the grounds that if

"misconception is an 'effect' that really exists, then its cause must be

something that really 'exists'. Its' 'cause' can't be something that is

a mere absence, a non-existent 'cause' such as not-knowing (Agrahana) or

absence of knowledge (Jnana Abava). For everyone adheres to the rule

that from non-existence, existence can never come, without an existing

cause there can never be an existing effect, and therefore the 'cause'

must be an existent, a material something, a positive entity. But this

objection is the outcome of a confusion about ontological causality and

epistemological 'causality'. And while it is true that for every

material effect, a material cause is necessitated (a pot needs its clay

and a tree needs its seed), in the case of epistemological 'causality'

the cause of 'not knowing' is quite sufficient to account for the effect

of misconceiving. Let us examine a common example: When one mistakes a

rope for a snake, if one were to enquire as to the 'cause' of that

mistake, it would be quite reasonable to reply that "Due to the cause of

'not knowing' that it is a rope, the effect of mistaking it for a snake

has taken place. In the same exact way it is perfectly intelligible to

assert that due to the 'cause' of not knowing the Self , you have

mistaken it for the Not-Self.

 

edmeasure:

>From non-existence comes existence, both in the fields of mystical esoterica

and in physics. What can seem non-existent are transformational properties

that are not obvious in moving from one state of awareness to another state.

Actually, there is existence on both sides of the transformation, but the

coordinate systems are totally different, just as in fields of porous

transcendence versus dense duality. The idea of 'material cause' is not

neatly defined, particular when relativity gets into the picture. Cause and

effect can and do interchange their roles, dependent on reference planes,

both in physics and in metaphysics. For instance, free-will and destiny can

appear to be opposing concepts, yet the two may merge to be one and the same,

or even flip positions, during glimpses of superposition of the transcendent

with activity in duality. Self and Not-Self are distinct enough, but now

their causal interrelationship patterns change.

 

stadri:

And again:

 

"The Field (Kshetra) and the Field Knower (Kshetrajna) means the

Not-Self which is the object (vishaya) , and the Self, which is the

Subject (vishayi) respectively; although both of these are of different

essential natures, having misconceived (Adhyasa) each for the other, and

their respective qualities (Dharmas) mutually in each other, is itself

their 'union', their 'association', their 'contact' (Samyoga). For this

association, the absence or lack of not distinguishing (Viveka Abava)

between the essential nature of the Not- Self (Kshetra Svarupa) and the

essential nature of the Self (Keshtrajna Svarupa) IS ITELF THE 'CAUSE'.

Just like the the 'contact' of a 'snake' or 'silver' etc., in the

rope, shell, etc;-- a 'contact' of the nature of a misconception, owing

to want of discrimination between the two." (Gita Bha. 13-26)

 

stadri:

In this quotation (which is basically a re-echo of his Adhyasa

Bhashaya) Shankara makes it even clearer, if that is possible, that the

only reason, or 'cause' for our misconceiving the Self is merely because

we no not know the Self. If we in fact knew the Self, it would not be

possible to misconceive it as anything else. Just as in the case of the

mistaken knowledge about the misconceived 'snake'. That misconception

could never arise without there being an absence of knowledge with

regard to the fact that all that is there, all that was there, all that

will be there, is the rope alone. The 'snake' was no doubt an 'effect'

and the absence of knowledge with regard to the rope can be considered

to be the 'cause' of the snake, but this cause is not a positively

existing material 'thing' some ontological entity needed to account for

the effect called a 'misconceived snake'. An important corollary of

this illustration of the rope-snake is that once we do get the true

knowledge of the rope, the 'objective effect' of the absence of

knowledge ie " the 'externally existing snake', as well as the

subjective misconception that the rope is a snake, are immediately

removed. In the same way, once we get the true knowledge of the Self,

the 'objective effect' i.e.: the world of duality, the world of time

space and causality, the world of many agents, enjoyers and knowers, as

well as the the subjective misconception that what is really the Self

alone, is the world of duality, are both immediately removed. Only the

Non-Dual Self remains.

 

edmeasure:

Both can also stick around together, in spite of advaita seemingly saying

different. And I doubt that advaita is, in fact, saying differently, though

I am not skilled enough in all the source readings to want to go find

'proof'. I think that there are simply some mismanaged interpretations

because the personal experience has been lost for such a long time.

Otherwise, why in the world would we still be needing to fathom exactly what

Sankara was saying?

 

stadri:

However, there is also a significant distinction that should be

noted between this worldly illustration about misconception and the

correct knowledge regarding the rope-snake, as opposed to that which is

being illustrated about the misconception (Avidya) and correct knowledge

(Vidya) regarding the Self. Before we misconceived the rope as a snake,

we were knowers, and after we determine the true nature of the rope and

get its correct knowledge, we still remain as knowers, and there is

still the possibility that we could have misconceptions in the future

with regard to a number of things, including another rope. But in the

case of the knowledge of the Self, once we have determined the true Non

Dual nature of the Self, all of duality is removed for good, so that the

duality of a knower, his means of knowledge, as well as the objects of

knowledge no longer remains, and thus there is no possibility that any

future misconceptions could arise with regard to the Self, or anything

else that was previously misconceived to be existing as a second

something in relation to the Self. Knowership is the outcome of

superimposing (adhyasa) the Self and the mind. All talk of means of

knowledge and objects of knowledge are dependent on a knowership. And

knowereship itself depends on Adhyasa, so once this misconception is

sublated by the knowledge of the Non-Dual Self, all the empirical

dealings of 'knower', 'means of knowledge', and 'known;(Pramatru,

pramana, premeya vyavahara) ceases to be.

 

edmeasure:

Again, duality does not need to be removed 'once we have determined the true

Non

Dual nature of the Self'. They are simply not mutually exclusive. I would

take 'knowership' to have to mean 'direct personal experience', but I wonder

here if you take it to mean something more in line with a 'logical

intellectualization'.

 

stadri:

There is also another question that makes its appearance when one takes

the position that absence of knowledge of the Self is the cause for

misconceiving the Self (The Whence Of Adhyasa): To have an absence of

knowledge with regard to some object of knowledge, and to misconceive an

object of knowledge as something else, requires either the existence of

a mind, or to put it in Fox's term, it requires 'some 'one' who is doing

the misconceiving'. It would then mean that that which is superimposed,

either the mind, or the individual, both of which are already

superimposed on the Self, would be the entities that are doing the

superimposition. The superimposed is doing the superimposing? This is

the objection: and while at first glance this objection seems valid,

because it exposes the defect of an apparent mutual dependency that is

being relied upon. The supposed defect of saying that you need a mind to

do any type of superimposing, and at the same time asserting that the

mind itself is a superimposed thing. But let us examine the rope snake

example once again. It is not the case that we first have a

misconception that there is a snake, and then after that misconception

the snake appears. For the appearance of the snake and the misconception

are simultaneous. There is no appearance of a snake without the

misconception, and there is no misconception without the appearance of

the snake. In the same way there is no Adhyasa without the appearance of

the mind, and there is no appearance of the mind without Adhyasa. When

Adhyasa is removed the mind is removed, and when there is no mind there

is no adhyasa. The same can be said with equal validity regarding the

individual; There is no individual without adhyasa and there is no

adhyasa without the individual And this in fact is our experience.

Whenever the mind makes its appearance it does so with the conviction

that Duality is real. With the conviction that it is a knower and there

is an independent world which can be known. But when the mind makes its

disappearance, as in the state of deep sleep, faint, coma or nirvikalpa

samadhi, there is no more any Adhyasa or misconceptions, and also no

dualistic dealing of a knower knowing something, no mind and no

individuality.

 

edmeasure:

That's right. Nothing is left. A philosophy of nothingness. Why waste the

time?

 

stadri:

And while this answer of Shankaras' to the question 'What is the cause

for Adhyasa' is both simple and elegant and in perfect agreement with

universal experience, as well as the intelligibility of his claim that

this Adhyasa can be totally removed by correct knowledge, this teaching

may not feel satisfying to those who have a propensity towards realism

and to convoluted hypotheses and unsubstantiated postulates, and would

prefer to see the profound teachings of Advaita Vedanta degraded to the

level of a speculative theological system that requires of its adherents

both blind belief and unquestioning submission to the authority of the

Scripture and the Guru. They may instead prefer to dogmatically assert

(while no other system of philosophy, darshana, or religion, has ever

thought it necessary to put forth such a view) that instead of 'not

knowing' being the cause for Adhyasa, there is an indescribable,

inconceivable beginingless and endless power, that has the capacity to

cover the Absolute and project the world, an ontological entity (not

something totally false or unreal), made up of three gunas, and which

cannot be described as existent nor non-existent, and which is a Shakti

that inheres in the very nature of the Absolute! An unbelievable view

that Shankara never even hinted at in all of his writings! So be it.

But I must end this post by asking them to sincerely enquire, in their

own hearts as seekers of truth, what is the answer to just one question?

Forget about what Shankara may or may not have said on the subject, put

aside what any 'tradition' or Swami may have declared, and ask

yourself: How would it be possible for Knowledge to remove such an

entity?? Can knowledge really get rid of some material (Upadana Karana)

'thing' (Bhava Rupa) that actually exists from beginingless time?? Just

answer that. If there is a reasonable answer to this question, I eagerly

wait to hear about it.

 

edmeasure:

Here's an answer though I do not know if you will consider it reasonable.

Avidya doesn't so much mean stupid or delinquent in knowledge as it means

wrong or incomplete knowledge. For instance, repeating 'I am a jerk' over an

over again is incorrect knowledge for getting ahead on things, just as

repeating 'I am brahman' over and over again is equally as bad. Either way,

they both lead to a sad and unfulfilling end. Both are of avidya. On the

other hand, if there were some simple things that might be done which would

quickly enhance seeing both the jerks of duality and the brahman nature of

Self more vividly, then this could be termed vidyâ, especially in contrast to

the avidya just cited. A tiny turn in the use of natural mind can suddenly

make one very aware of something altogether new and unifying. The world

flips upside down. So be it.

 

Om Tat Sat

Atmachaitanya

 

 

jai guru dev,

 

Edmond

 

 

 

 

 

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Dear Atmachaitanyaji, namaskaram

 

Many thanks for your truly excellent posting on the origins of

Adhyasa!

Adi Shankara´s "adhyasa bhashyam" (the introduction to the

Brahma Sutra Bhashya) no doubt offers the key to the

understanding of Advaita Vedanta as propagated by Shankara.

Anyone interested to know about genuine Shankara vedanta would

benefit from studying "adhyasa bhashyam". Therefore, I would like

to recommend the members of this list to read the following

article:

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/articles/adhyasa_bhashyam.htm

This article was written by Sri Subhanu Saxena, a disciple of

Sri Aswattha Narayana Avadhani, who in his turn is a disciple of

Swami Satchidanandendra Saraswati. In other words, Swami

Satchidanandendra is the paramaguru of Sri Subhanu Saxena.

 

Very best wishes

Stig Lundgren

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Dear Sri Atmachaitanyaji,

 

As usual, I immensely enjoyed reading your post. I was reminded of

Swami Chinmayananda's oft quoted statement: "The non apprehension of

reality leads to the mis-apprehension of reality" in various parts of

your writing.

 

However, a few doubts still linger especially with the chicken and egg

problem you have raised towards the end:

 

Non discrimination presupposes an individual with a non discriminating

mind and it also presupposes entities real and unreal (ie duality) to

be discriminated between. However, aren't we trying to analyse what is

even causal to the individual and the mind and the first appearance of

duality? ie what is it that brought about the individual/mind/duality

to begin with.

 

Vedanta puts forth the causal body model to explain (on the empirical

level for the ignorant but seeking intellect) the cause for the

individual mind and intellect. However, then, Trigunatmika Maya (and

Avidya) are also necessarily brought in, the need for which is what

you precisely are questioning.

 

Hence, there is still a gap in my understanding as to why there is a

need to question the Maya/Avidya "theory" which conveniently and

provisionally explains (to the ignorant but seeking mind!) how the

individual/mind/duality arose. Given that Maya (Avidya) does not

really exist, only seems to, settles the ignorant questioning

intellect while it lasts(!), and also disappears on

enquiry/realization, I don't see the major objection accommodating it.

 

regards,

--Satyan

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In a message dated 3/25/02 9:29:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, slu

writes:

 

> I guess

> that other seekers and students of Advaita Vedanta have faced

> problems and questions similar to mine.

>

> Very best wishes

> Stig Lundgren

>

 

Yes, for sure, and as I see so many highly learned folks here, doing detail

after detail in the long complicated history of advaita and related

scriptural sources, and still is seen an ever increasing set of perplexities

and unknowns, I can only marvel at the on going strength and tenacity of such

adherents. Surely, at some point, one throws up one's hands, saying,

'enough', to rather move on by way of the dictums brought forth through

personal experience. Is it more important that I clearly understand what

Sankara may or may not have said, or meant, ages ago by way of totally

foreign culture values, or is it more important to now, at this moment, try

to clear up what we can spontaneously see and know, depending among us on

huge varied experiences, to fill in the gaps. That is, are we more eager to

become absolute masters of historical ideas and presentations or can we allow

ourselves to use the tools of our present culture, science, to bring forward

more spontaneous experiences that seem to be moving in the direction of

enlightenment?

 

jai guru dev,

 

Edmond

 

 

 

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Dear Edmond, how would you explain that what Advaita calls Self is

absolute & without objects? Why call it Self? Or would you call it

inclusive of relative? I am reminded of the Buddhist anatman

position.

 

Col

 

advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote:

> You raise so many great points that I just could not resist to join

your

> conversation.have been removed]

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Sri Satyanji wrote,

>

> Vedanta puts forth the causal body model to explain (on the

empirical

> level for the ignorant but seeking intellect) the cause for the

> individual mind and intellect. However, then, Trigunatmika Maya

(and

> Avidya) are also necessarily brought in, the need for which is

what

> you precisely are questioning.

>

 

 

Why do you think "the causal body model" and trigunatmika maya

are necessarliy brought in in order to explain the cause of the

individual mind and intellect? Adi Shankara certainly didn´t

think so. The trigunaatmika maya theory was formulated by

vedantins in the post-Shankara era. The same is true also

regarding the causal body (kArana Shariira) model. The causal

body is mentioned only once in the whole bulk of Shankara´s

writings, namely in his bhashya on Isa Upanishad. The

post-Shankarites, however, formulated a theory according to which

the soul enters a causal body in deep-sleep. And this is not at

all what Shankara says regarding the causal body.

The post-Shankara vedantins holds the view that the causal

body and the trigunaatmika maya are due to the existence of the

indivdual (and ignorant) mind. And hence the chicken and egg

problem is deluding us again: If the individual mind is due to

the causal body etc., then how can the causal body etc. exist due

to the individual mind? Personally, I can´t see how adhyasa and

avidya could be satisfyingly explained by bringing the

post-Shankara theories into the picture. If mUlAvidyA is

considered as necessary in order to explain adhyasa, then why

don´t we have to explain the cause and existence of mUlAvidyA?

And if we somehow tries to explain the cause of mUlAvidyA, then

we have to explain the cause and existence of this cause etc. in

infinitum. This way of reasoning apparently leads to an infinite

regress.

 

> Hence, there is still a gap in my understanding as to why there

is a

> need to question the Maya/Avidya "theory" which conveniently

and

> provisionally explains (to the ignorant but seeking mind!) how

the

> individual/mind/duality arose. Given that Maya (Avidya) does

not

> really exist, only seems to, settles the ignorant questioning

> intellect while it lasts(!), and also disappears on

> enquiry/realization, I don't see the major objection

accommodating it.

>

 

 

Well, the post-Shankara theories leads to a number of logical

problems, already pointed out by Ramanuja in his 1100th century

critique of the Advaita school as he knew it (that is, the

post-Shankara Advaita school). The critique of Ramanuja only

applies to the standpoints of the post-Shankarites, and could

have been avoided if the post-Shankarites had remained faithful

to the teachings of Adi Shankara himself. And this critique makes

way for the rise of the dualist schools. So at least to some

degree, the post-Shankara theories where responsible for the

forming of rival vedantic schools.

However, a bigger problem is the confusion caused by the

post-Shankara advaitins among the students and sincere followers

of Advaita Vedanta. For instance, when I started out studying

vedanta, I was confused by the fact that already a couple of

generations after Adi Shankara, subtraditions emerged under the

names of Vivarana and Bhamati. I was confused regarding which one

of these subtraditions represented the genuine philosophy of Adi

Shankara. Did Vivarana or Bhamati follow the tradition of

Shankara? A friend of mine (an extremely learned advaitin) had

already guided me through the "adhyasa bhashyam" (the

introduction to Shankara´s Brahma Sutra Bhashya), and I couldn´t

figure out in what way the Vivarana and Bhamati theories

corresponded to what Shankara said in "adhyasa bhashyam". I guess

that other seekers and students of Advaita Vedanta have faced

problems and questions similar to mine.

 

Very best wishes

Stig Lundgren

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In a message dated 3/25/02 2:02:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,

b.milnes writes:

 

> Ed

>

> I thought you'd be intrigued and quizzical about this stuff here. Problem

> is that from an enlightened (unity consciousness) perspective, the duality

> reality doesn't exist, any more than a dream has any existence. There is

> only Self = Atman/Brahman and everything else = not-self. Only when we

> 'see' that "the world" is projected through Self do we see that all

> not-self is illusory.

 

Yes, I think that virtually everyone who takes up this study in any serious

manner quickly realizes that not-self is illusory. Now that we have come to

this great and most astounding realization(?), I can only comment, so what.

What is the value to dwell on this; I can find none. I'm just too busy

enjoying life and trying to understand all of the delicacies within the

illusion.

 

<This question, "Whence Adhyasa?", why does the common illusion exist? and

> "what creates it"?, (why were Adam and Eve thrown from the garden of Eden?)

> is an age old one.

 

Well, it is said that realization, play, and joy for the otherwise rather

boring and static state of brahman are the why of the common illusion. A

few verses of siva sutra brings this out a bit:

 

S3.6 Through surrondings of delusion (illusion) come the attainments.

"mohâ varanât siddhih"

delusion by-surrondings attainments

 

S3.7 Through mastery over delusion while naturally in the presence of

eternal fullness comes the mastery of subtle knowledge.

"moha jayâd ananta âbhogât sahaja vidyâ jayah"

delusion through-mastery infinite because-of-fullness while-naturally

subtle-knowledge mastery

 

S3.8 The waking (state of consciousness) is the second cause (of mastery of

subtle knowledge).

"jâgrat dvitîya karah"

waking second cause

 

S3.9 The self is a dancer.

"nartaka âtmâ"

dancer self

 

S3.10 The inner self is the stage.

"rangah antar âtmâ"

stage inner self

 

S3.11 The senses are the spectators.

"preksakâni indriyâni"

spectators senses

 

S3.12 From the radiance of pure intelligence, sattva is attained.

"dhî vasât sattva siddhih"

pure-intelligence from-radiance sattva attainment

 

S3.13 Then one's own system of subtle realities (tantra) becomes perfected.

"siddhah sva tantra bhâvah"

perfected-one one's-own subtle-realities becomes

 

What a magnificent movie here, with never ceasing unfoldments of new

subtleties!

> I know you have regular direct "experience" of the Self, and enjoy the

> movement in and out of transcendental states of consciousness that we

> believe will eventually establish permanent liberation. But even that

> process is illusory, too...

 

But such a joyful illusionary process. It sure beats being in various states

of pain and suffering that are still so prevalent all around us. What are

you suggesting, that because process appears to be illusory through various

logic sequences, that we should somehow, fade away, drop off the planet, etc?

>

> I couldn't really grasp this until, by chance, I recently came across and

> bought a second hand copy of Tony Parson's "The Open Secret". You can read

> excerpts from it at http://www.theopensecret.com/, but I recommend buying a

> copy. It, and Tony in person, are as uncompromising as some here appear.

>

> Atmachaitanya is an erudite scholar, and substantiates his statements with

> logical reasoning, even if that appears removed from the blissful insight

> that practicing TM can bestow. I await his treatise on "How the Shastra is

> the only means of knowledge for the Self" with deep interest.

 

Pure logic is mathematics. Some folks use highly specialized word creations

in lieu of using characters from the Greek alphabet. The quest for the

logical reasoning is to have a mathematical substantiation of order

concerning the various feelings we might have over this and that. For

instance, take the title above that you are anxiously waiting for (and that

feeling of anxious waiting is indeed the crux of my argument here) "How Such

and Such is the ONLY 'means of knowledge' for the Self'. How many statements

of the 'ONLY way' have you heard in your life? The 'means of knowledge' fill

volumes upon volumes of philosophy by many most learned folks, the endless

ontologies and epistemologies, etc. I have no doubt that the writer is

expert in the writing and that he/she feels strongly, without doubt, on the

subject matter, but indeed, just how will any logical constructions of

duality lead to grand experiences of Self. Indeed, Brian, I am surprised

that you pose such a question, with all of your experiences and all of that,

but perhaps you have not toiled through enough doses of these endless

philosophical speculations. What I clearly understand, though, are the joys

of anxiously awaiting for anything that seemingly might bring one closer to

the experience of Self. The illusory game of logic with words is a momentary

joy and fascination offered through the medium of duality. Perhaps, like

enjoying a chess game, for instance. There's nothing that we choose to do

that is not, somehow, motivated in bringing us closer to a more vivid

experience of our very own Self - indeed, an experience of Self while we are

simultaneously involved in the activities of duality. Such experiences

accelerate the flow of bliss through our self into Self, the atman -- brahman

transformations. So in this sense, this book that you await for so dearly

will surely provide you with further upliftment, just because of the

endearing enthrallment, and for this we again praise the lord.

>

>

> best regards

>

> Brian

>

 

jai guru dev,

 

Edmond

 

 

 

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Ed

 

I thought you'd be intrigued and quizzical about this stuff here. Problem is

that from an enlightened (unity consciousness) perspective, the duality reality

doesn't exist, any more than a dream has any existence. There is only Self =

Atman/Brahman and everything else = not-self. Only when we 'see' that "the

world" is projected through Self do we see that all not-self is illusory. This

question, "Whence Adhyasa?", why does the common illusion exist? and "what

creates it"?, (why were Adam and Eve thrown from the garden of Eden?) is an age

old one.

 

I know you have regular direct "experience" of the Self, and enjoy the movement

in and out of transcendental states of consciousness that we believe will

eventually establish permanent liberation. But even that process is illusory,

too...

 

I couldn't really grasp this until, by chance, I recently came across and bought

a second hand copy of Tony Parson's "The Open Secret". You can read excerpts

from it at http://www.theopensecret.com/, but I recommend buying a copy. It, and

Tony in person, are as uncompromising as some here appear.

 

Atmachaitanya is an erudite scholar, and substantiates his statements with

logical reasoning, even if that appears removed from the blissful insight that

practicing TM can bestow. I await his treatise on "How the Shastra is the only

means of knowledge for the Self" with deep interest.

 

In the meantime, I'm going to post that preface (in-toto) that we discussed

briefly on your BhagavadGitaLab e-group, as I think it would be interesting to

have Maharshi Mahesh Yogi's views on some of these things directly expressed

here...

 

best regards

 

Brian

 

 

 

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It's curious how different folks have different ways of understanding the

basic yoga sutras. The gross overview, of course, is rather similar, but the

fine structure often implies radically different and far reaching

implications. Indeed, it is in the miniscule detail where new delights

arise. I see the yoga sutras quoted below more like:

 

Y2.17 The cause (of the pain) is the abolished connection between the Seer

and the Seen.

"drastr drsyayos samyogo heya hetuh"

seer of-seen connection abolish cause

 

Y2.18 Seeing has the character of illumination, activity, and steadiness; it

is embodied in the lively senses; its purpose is for experience and

liberation.

"prakâsa kriyâ sthiti sîlam bhûta indriya âtmakam bhoga apavarga artham

drsyam"

illumination activity steadiness character lively senses embodied experience

liberation purpose seeing

 

Y2.19 The divisions among the gunas range from the specific to the universal

and from measurable marks to the undifferentiate.

"visesa avisesa linga mâtra alingâni guna parvâni"

specific universal mark measurable undifferentiate gunas divisions

 

Y2.20 Though the seer is pure seeing only, thoughts are perceived.

"drastâ drsi mâtrah suddha api pratyaya anupasyah"

seer seeing only pure though thoughts perceive

 

Y2.21 Thus, the purpose of seeing, in fact, is for self.

"tad artha eva drsyasya âtmâ"

thus purpose in-fact of-seeing self

 

Y2.22 The seen disappears for one whose purpose is accomplished but it does

not disappear for others because of common observance.

"krta artham prati nastam apy anastam tad anya sâdhâranatvât"

accomplished purpose for disappear but not-disappear it other

common-observance

 

Y2.23 Samyoga, union, is the ability to perceive one's own form and is

caused by the power, sakti, existing between the seer and the seen.

"sva svâmi saktyoh sva rûpa upalabdhi hetuh samyogah"

owned owner of-power own form perceived cause union

 

Y2.24 The cause (of samâpatti) is ignorance.

"tasya hetur avidyâ"

its cause ignorance

 

Y2.25 Liberation is the pure seeing that results from dissolution of the

union between seer and seen. Liberation is the dissolution of samâpatti

through the removal of ignorance.

"tad abhâvât samyoga abhâvo hânam tad drseh kaivalyam"

thus from-dissolution union dissolved remove that sheer-seeing liberation

 

Y2.26 The means of removing ignorance is an unwavering vision of

discernment.

"viveka khyâtir aviplavâ hâna upâyah"

discernment vision unwavering removal means

 

Y2.27 The unwavering vision of discernment is sevenfold and the last stage

is called insight, prajñâ.

"tasya saptadhâ prânta bhûmih prajñâ"

of-it sevenfold last stage insight

 

 

In a message dated 3/25/02 6:35:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,

b.milnes writes:

 

> Thanks for the Siva Sutra posts, I enjoyed them. In the meantime, maybe we

> can reflect on Patanjali's terse verses: (which seem to me to entirely

> consistent with Shankara as quoted by Atmachaitanya:

>

> 17. drastr drsyayoh samyogo heya hetuh

> The cause of this [suffering], which can be avoided, is the confusion

> between perceiver and perceived.

> 18. prakasa kriyâ sthiti sîlam bhûtendriyât makam bhogâpavargâtham

> drsyam

> The perceived is in the nature of light, motion and mass, which,

> manifesting as the elements and the sense organs give us experience through

> which [we may attain] liberation.

> 19. visesâvisesa liñgamâtrâliñâni guna parvâni

> The levels of the gunas are; gross, subtle, material and unmanifest.

> 20. drastâ drsimâtrah suddho 'pi pratyayâ nupasyah

> The seer is the sole witness, pure even whilst using the intellect as

> the means of perception.

> 21. tadartha eva drsyasyâtmâ

> Only for the sake of the Self does the perceived world exists.

> 22. krtârtham prati nastam apy anastam tad anya sâdhâranatvât

> So although it ceases to exist for those who have achieved their goal,

> it continues to exist in common for those others [who have not].

> 23. sva svâmi saktyoh svarûpopalabdhi hetuh samyogah

> The confusion (of Self and not-self) enables discovery of one's own

> true nature and the power of both

> 24. tasya hetur avidyâ

> Its cause is ignorance [of the Self]

> 25. tad abhâvât samyogaâbhâvo hânam tad drseh kaivalyam

> Once this disappears so the confusion disappears leaving the liberated

> seer

> 26. viveka khyâtir aviplavâ hânopâyah

> The means of ceasing [ignorance] is constant discrimination [between

> the Self and the not-self]

> 27. tasya saptadhâ prânta bhûmih prajñâ

> For him the last stage of knowledge is sevenfold

>

 

 

 

 

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advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 3/25/02 2:02:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> b.milnes@b... writes:

>

>

> > Ed

 

Nice to see you here Ed. I sure found some good friends here over the

years.

> >

> > I thought you'd be intrigued and quizzical about this stuff here.

Problem

> > is that from an enlightened (unity consciousness) perspective,

the duality

> > reality doesn't exist, any more than a dream has any existence.

There is

> > only Self = Atman/Brahman and everything else = not-self. Only

when we

> > 'see' that "the world" is projected through Self do we see that

all

> > not-self is illusory.

 

I wonder why you call it not self?

 

Doesn't Brahman include all & nothing?

 

I had written a question to Edmond last evening but was mucking

up. My question was .. why does Advaita call 'It' Self when it is not

objective & the word self is usually one we think of with images &

objects? Is the relative included? Is that why? Why do Buddhists

focus on no self?

 

Col

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I await his treatise on

| "How the Shastra is

| > the only means of knowledge for the Self" with deep interest.

 

I think you misconstrue, Ed. I await this with deep (and skeptical) interest.

You'd have to go back through (the recent) archives to see those debates. But I

think I'm closer to your perspective on this than Atmachaitanya's...

 

By the way, when you said:

Pure logic is mathematics.

I thought you were about to embark on some beautiful treatise on how maths

describes the universe. It's been a fascination of mine that pure mathematics

has created apparently abstruse theories, only to find that science has come

along later desperately in need of... "Hey presto!" that exact new theorem /

concept.

 

Thanks for the Siva Sutra posts, I enjoyed them. In the meantime, maybe we can

reflect on Patanjali's terse verses: (which seem to me to entirely consistent

with Shankara as quoted by Atmachaitanya:

 

17. drastr drsyayoh samyogo heya hetuh

The cause of this [suffering], which can be avoided, is the confusion between

perceiver and perceived.

18. prakasa kriyâ sthiti sîlam bhûtendriyât makam bhogâpavargâtham drsyam

The perceived is in the nature of light, motion and mass, which, manifesting as

the elements and the sense organs give us experience through which [we may

attain] liberation.

19. visesâvisesa liñgamâtrâliñâni guna parvâni

The levels of the gunas are; gross, subtle, material and unmanifest.

20. drastâ drsimâtrah suddho 'pi pratyayâ nupasyah

The seer is the sole witness, pure even whilst using the intellect as the means

of perception.

21. tadartha eva drsyasyâtmâ

Only for the sake of the Self does the perceived world exists.

22. krtârtham prati nastam apy anastam tad anya sâdhâranatvât

So although it ceases to exist for those who have achieved their goal, it

continues to exist in common for those others [who have not].

23. sva svâmi saktyoh svarûpopalabdhi hetuh samyogah

The confusion (of Self and not-self) enables discovery of one's own true nature

and the power of both

24. tasya hetur avidyâ

Its cause is ignorance [of the Self]

25. tad abhâvât samyogaâbhâvo hânam tad drseh kaivalyam

Once this disappears so the confusion disappears leaving the liberated seer

26. viveka khyâtir aviplavâ hânopâyah

The means of ceasing [ignorance] is constant discrimination [between the Self

and the not-self]

27. tasya saptadhâ prânta bhûmih prajñâ

For him the last stage of knowledge is sevenfold

 

 

 

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Namaste!

 

I read Shri Atmachaitanyaji's long post several times. Then I went

over Shri Dennis Waite's original post (12349 of 18th February 2002)

and the several responses it subsequently elicited including mine. I

would like to respectfully present the following humble thoughts. I

may kindly be forgiven for any ignorance:

 

1. Neither Shri Waite nor those who initially responded to his post

mentioned anything about a moola-avidya with bhava roopa. It was

first brought into the discussion by Shri Atmachaitanyaji himself in

his post 12380 dated 20th February 2002 in order to validate Douglas

Fox's thought that adhyasa cannot be an independent process outside

of Brahman.

 

2. Sizeable portions of Shri Atmachaitanyaji's latest post and

previous posts in this chain are devoted to refute this moola-avidya

with bhava roopa, which he himself introduced into the discussion,

and the post-Sankara advaitins who advocate(d) it, whoever they are.

 

4. I believe the explanation that he has offered to the conundrum of

adhyasa could have stood on its own without all such lengthy

refutation. This is not to say that we have not learnt anything from

his fantastic expositions.

 

5. No doubt, Shri Atmachaitanyaji has drawn from several sources and

built a brilliant case for his contention that we ourselves are the

cause for adhyasa. Reading his post was a real, big, enlightening

experience.

 

6. But after everything, the big question that lingers in mind is if

we are not back at square one. Let us look at Shri Atmachaitanyaji's

conclusion: "in the sense that: "I don't know the Self, I haven't

been able to discriminate the true nature of the Self, and due to

this, I may (sic) be considered the `cause' (sic) of

superimposition". Don't the words "may" and apostrophized `cause'

point at some doubt and uncertainty?

 

7. By "I" , I am sure he does not mean the Self. This "I" is in the

realm of the Unreal Not-Self (to quote his own terminology), because

with regard to the Self there is no adhyasa at all. The "I"

certainly is the "some `one'" referred to by Shri Atmachaitanyaji

towards the end of his post who appears simultaneously with adhyasa.

Can this "I" which itself is born within and at the same time as

adhyasa probe into the origin of adhyasa and get a satisfactory

answer, i.e. can these two `entities" have distinct separate

existence (as is our experience) so that at least one of them can

enquire into the cause of the other and ultimately conclude that

the `enquirer' himself is the cause? To make it short, can two

entities originate at the same point in time from the same primal

cause? Doesn't it sound like two events at the same point in space

and time? Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

8. How can adhyasa without bhava roopa give rise to an Unreal Not-

Self of beings with bhava roopa? How can the bhavaatheetha

(beyond bhava), through the agency of something without bhava roopa,

give rise to something with bhaava roopa? How can a misconception

(immaterial cause) result in a material universe? An epistemological

causality with ontological possibilities? These are of course

questions which Shri Atmachaitanyaji himself had introduced before to

this discussion and still valid.

 

9. Sankara, as quoted by Shri Atmachaitanyaji, has stated that the

misconception with regard to the Self and Non-Self is naisargika (by

nature). Isn't this another way of saying that avidya is anaadi?

Sankara has said that right in Thathwabodha". Naturally, therefore,

we cannot fix the birth date of this natural misconception!

 

10. Shri Atmachaitanyaji had promised to go through the Martha

Doherty's dissertation (recommended by Shri Kathirasanji). He has

not mentioned anything in that regard..

 

11. Ultimately, I am left with a feeling that Shri Atmachaitanyaji

has not taken us any farther than where we had reached under the

guidance of our teachers and those who wrote before in this forum

other than throwing fresh insights into the rope-snake analogy and

postulating the simultaneous origin of "I" and adhyasa to

accommodate and affirm Douglas Fox's thought ©. In fact, the gamut

of his conclusion rests purely on the latter.

 

12. To quote Shri Atmachaitanyaji again:

 

"But for you to be sitting, it is necessary that you have accepted

the idea that you are either the body or at least the idea that you

have a body. For you to be reading this post, the minimum requirement

would be to accept the fact that you have the `sense of sight', and

for you to evaluate the correctness or falsity of my assertions, it

is absolutely necessary that you have a mind. Yet the idea that you

have a body, senses or mind can only come about as a result of not

discriminating the Subject from the object, the knower and the

known, the Self and the not-Self, and it is the misconception

(Adhyasa) or mixing up of these two categories into one identified

entity that is the root cause for all of Samsara."

 

The sense of body, sight, mind etc. does not occur when an experience

goes on. When the experience occurs, there is only the lighting up

of the "experiencing". Even the experiencer and the object

experienced vanish. I am listening to Jesudas. When "laya" takes

place, there is no Jesudas, there is no song, there is no me (i.e. "I-

the listener-self-awareness"), there remains only the lighting up of

enjoyment. The body, mind, eyes, sense of sight etc. come into the

picture only when they are thought of. Then again, in ultimate

analysis, there is only their being lighted up as respective

objects/thoughts awareness. When such lighting up takes place, at

that moment, there is no "I-the-seer-self-awareness". If this

analysis is further extended, then the thought that all this duality

is a misconception is also a lighting up of awareness when it

occurs. The common denominator in all this is the "lighting up" and

that exactly is what we are all after. So, endeavour to see the

one "lighting up" in all the "lighting-ups" – the misconception

vanishes leaving only "LIGHTING UP".

 

13. Shri Atmachaitanyaji said:

 

"This and only this is the principle meaning of Ignorance according

to Shankara,: i.e. Adhyasa is the mutual superimposition of the Self

and the Not-Self along with the mixing of their distinct qualities on

each other."

 

There cannot be any superimposition due to mixing up of the distinct

qualities of each other. We already agreed that no qualities exist

in the Absolute and from the Absolute perspective. To put it

crudely, the Self does not have any qualities at all. The Unreal Not-

Self has to be created first of all and then endowed with qualities

for its qualitieis to be subjected to " superimposition".

 

14. The whole argument of the post is built mainly on the rope-snake

example, which has its own limitations. The seer of the snake on the

rope has definitely had a previous snake experience. Otherwise, the

snake qualities will no be "superimposed" on the rope reality.

However, in the Self-Not Self confusion, there is no memory or

recollection involved. Here, the Self is "manifesting" as the Not

Self due to misconception. Does it really matter if this

misconception is named avidya, adhyasa or maaya as long as we all,

from Shankara down, are prepared to admit that there is a

misconception. And whatever this "manifestation" is due to, it is

our daily experience that it is "thrigunathmika" with bhava roopa.

Then, why take cudgels with the post-Sankara vedantins?

 

Shri Atmachaitanyaji wrote: "This distinction between the Absolute

Reality and the "Empirical" viewpoint should be unfailingly borne in

mind in order to reconcile the several seeming (sic) self-

contradictory statements in Shankara's commentaries."

 

This actually is the crux of the problem. No amount of explanation

can completely answer the adhyasa conundrum. Perhaps, mostly it is

best understood in a very simple manner by those who intuit on the

lines mentioned in (12) above.

 

Shankara is quoted by Shri Atmachaitanyaji as below:

 

"If it should be asked `And to whom does this ignorance belong?" We

answer, `To you who are asking this question!' (Objection) `But I

have been declared to be the Isvara Himself by the Scriptures!

(Reply) If you are thus awakened, then there never was any Ignorance

that ever belonged to anyone'." (Sutra Bhasya 4-1-3).".

 

I wish Shankara had added: "Till you are awakened, you will keep

asking this question "Whence Ignorance?" and not find any

satisfactory answer to it.".

 

May I conclude by quoting the very realisitc Shri Jaishankarji (from

Message 12461):

 

"Finally, I want to state that all these things are only

prakriyaabhedas (differences in the methodology and teaching) as we

all agree on what is to be taught which is `tat tvam asi'".

 

All of you Advaitin brothers and sisters – please forgive me if I

have erred anywhere. I am neither trained nor well-read in vedantic

logic. I mostly rely on commonsense, which may not be sharp enough

and foolproof.

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

 

 

 

advaitin, sophia & ira schepetin <stadri@a...>(Shri

Atmachaitanyaji) wrote:

> Dear Dennis, and all others interested in this subject, (the rest

deleted in order not to choke the "electronic super-highway" as Shri

Ram Chandranji calls it.)

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Namsate Edmond,

 

Yes, I agree with you. I too am of the opinion that one should

strive to realize the nature of reality. The world of duality

is no doubt an illusion, but it is fun. And if you ask me, the

goal of all this is to be able to take pure delight in this

play while being aware that it is but an illusion.

 

In case you happen to have shiva sutras translated in the

format that you posted earlier, could you post a translation of

all the sutras on this list. I am particularly interested in

the format that you have used, which I copy below:

 

Translation (which always implies an interpretation)

Compound sanskrit words split up into distinct sanskrit words

Word by word translation of the distinct sanskrit words.

 

Will really appreciate if you could post these.

 

Thanks,

Best regards

Shrinivas

 

p.s. If time constraints prevent you from posting them all,

here is a list of the sutras that I find most challenging:

 

1. Meaning of matruka in 1.4

2. Meaning of ruma kumari in 1.13

3. Verse 1.16

4. Verses 1.20,1.21,1.22

 

Have not yet progressed beyond the first chapter ....

 

> S3.6 Through surrondings of delusion (illusion) come the

attainments.

> "mohâ varanât siddhih"

> delusion by-surrondings attainments

>

> S3.7 Through mastery over delusion while naturally in the presence

of

> eternal fullness comes the mastery of subtle knowledge.

> "moha jayâd ananta âbhogât sahaja vidyâ jayah"

> delusion through-mastery infinite because-of-fullness while-

naturally

> subtle-knowledge mastery

>

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Dear Sri Madathilnair,

 

Please allow me to respond to some of the points that you raise

regarding my answer to the question: Whence Adhyasa?

 

With reference to points 1,2 and 4, in which you indicate that it was

I, who introduced this subject of "Bhava Rupa Mula Avidya", I concede

the observation. And the reason I did so was that everyone at this

Advaitin web site presumably has an interest in Shankaras' Advaita

Vedanta. And anyone who is familiar with the literature associated

with this tradition has come across this "Root Ignorance" theory. It

is to be found not only in works falsely ascribed to Shankara, such as

Vivekachudamani, and many other popular 'Prakarana Granthas', but it

is a theory which has been developed and expounded upon in many

important independent works such as Vidyarayanas' Panchadasi,

Prakashatma Yatis' Vivarana, Sri Harshas' Khandana, Citsukas' Tatva

Pradipika, and Sarvajnatmans' Sankshepa Sariraka, to mention only a

few. But let it not be assumed that this theory of Root Ignorance is

merely a historical artifact, and not relevant to the current, modern

day Advaita Vedantins, for this very same theory is being propagated,

in the name of Shankara, by all the current 'Shankaracharyas' at the

main Mutts, as well as the most prominent and popular Swamis now

'representing' the tradition of Shankaras' Advaita. It is because I

am convinced that their answer to the question Whence Adhyasa?, is

false, opposed to reason and experience, contradicts Shankaras own

position on the subject, and degrades the sublime Absolutist teachings

of Vedanta to the level of dry dialectics, 'realism', theological

dogmatism, the abandonment of Non Duality and finally (and most

importantly) the impossibility of putting an end to Samsara once the

theory of 'Root Ignorance' is accepted, because Knowledge could never

destroy it, that I went to such lengths to refute it..

 

With reference to the issues you raise in point 8 in which you ask:

"How can Adhyasa, without Bhava Rupa, give rise to an Unreal Not-Self

of beings with Bhava Rupa?" and again, "How can a misconception

(immaterial cause) result in a material Universe?" Let me respond by

stating that the 'beings' that appear due to Adhyasa are not existent

(Bhava Rupa) at any time, either before their manifestation, during

their manifestation, or after their disappearance. The Universe that

appears due to misconception is not 'material' but merely an illusion,

and its true nature was, is and forever will be, always Atman alone.

It is true that there have been a number of 'Advaita Vedantins' who

advocated the actual birth of 'illusory objects' and attributed a

certain kind of 'existence to them (pratibasika satta), but this is

totally foreign to Shankaras declarations and to common sense. When we

mistake a rope for a snake, that snake never had any existence of its

own. And after we correct this misconception by getting the correct

knowledge of the rope, no actually existing snake of any kind was ever

destroyed. We all take the position that there never was a snake in

all the three periods of time, past present and future. It should be

clearly remembered that according to Shankara,''an appearance is

something which seems to exist, but which in truth never existed at

all'. In addition, Shankara points out the indisputable fact that no

appearance could ever manifest without there being an actually

existent substratum or basis for that appearance. The snake could not

appear without the existence of a rope, and the appearance of the

universe could not manifest without there being the Self as its

underlying reality (adhistana).

 

 

The point that you make in number13, is the outcome of a total

confusion regarding Shankaras position about Adhyasa. You state" There

cannot be any superimposition due to mixing up of the distinct

qualities of each other. We already agreed that no qualities exist in

the Absolute, and from the Absolute perspective. To put it crudely,

the Self does not have any qualities at all." Dear Madatilnair, what

I 'agreed' to was that in the Absolute or from the Absolute

perspective there never was, is or will be any Ignorance or

Superimposition, nor its removal. However for the sake of

discriminating between the Self and the Not-Self, Shankara is not at

all reluctant to say that the 'qualities' of Consciousness and Being

belong to the Self alone and never to the Not-Self. In his Adhyasa

Bhasya he describes the true 'I', the Subject (vishayi) as Chitatmika

(Of the nature of Consciousness). To say Consciousness and Existence

are qualities of the Self is like saying that heat and light are the

'qualities of fire. It is their very nature (Svarupa). So in this

context, the word 'quality' does not refer to some attribute that

belongs to something of which it could dispense with and still remain

that thing. It refers to the very nature of the Self, in the same way

that it is the very nature of fire to have heat and light. Unlike the

'qualities' of beauty and ugliness or intelligence, with reference to

a person who could continue to be that very same person even if those

attributes were to change. It is the 'qualities' of Consciousness and

Existence that are falsely attributed (Adhyasa) to the Non-Self that

makes everyone think that their bodies, senses and mind are conscious

and that they exist.

 

You state in 14,that "The whole argument of the post is built mainly

on the rope-snake example, which has its own limitations". But this is

not my example, it is Shankaras. He uses this example throughout his

commentaries repeatedly, and he does so because it suits his purpose

quite well. It is an illustration from worldly life that we are all

familiar with and which demonstrates that people do mistake one thing

for another, that the mistaken 'thing' never existed where it was

thought to have existed and that after the correct knowledge of the

thing the appearance is sublated . As to the limitation of this

illustration, in that it does not match up exactly with what is being

illustrated, Shankara admits to the defect, but points out that if the

illustration was exactly the same as what was being illustrated, it

would merely be a tautology, and would no longer serve as a teaching

device.

 

And in conclusion, I would like to respond to your final summation,

which accurately portrays an opinion that is shared by most Indian

pundits and Western Indologists. You state: "May I conclude by quoting

the very realistic Shri Jaishankarji…" Finally I want to state that

all these things are only prakriyaabedhas (Differences in the

methodology and teaching) as we all agree on what is to be taught

which is 'tat tvam asi'."

 

I can only say that I take this position be a great disservice to the

contributions that was made by Shankara regarding the clarification of

important Vedantic concepts, in clarifying, for the first time in

Vedantic literature, what exactly is the nature of Ignorance, and

indicating exactly what were the defects in the other Advaitic

schools, (despite the fact that they all taught 'tat tvam asi', and

that were prevalent during his times and before him), so that the

sincere seekers of truth would not be lead astray.

Why does Shankara refute the Karmajnana Samuchya vadins (the theory

that by a combination of actions and knowledge one attained moksha)?

They were Advaitins who taught 'tat tvam asi'. And why did he refute

the prasankyana vadins (those who held that after the attainment of

knowledge, that knowledge had to be repeated to make it strong enough

to ward off the old vasanas. They were Advaitins who taught 'tat tvam

asi' And why did Shankara refute the notion that Nirvikalpa Samadhi

was the means to the knowledge of the Self, even though many modern

day and ancient Vedantins hold such a view and all teach 'tat tvam

asi'? Who were the "Vritikaras' (previous commentators) that Shankara

examines in his Gita commentary and refutes mercilessly calling them

"idiots"(Murkaha), despite the fact that they were Advaitins all

teaching 'tat tvam asi'. And how is it that Suresvaracharya could

compose 14000 verses for his Brihidaranyaka Vartica, the bulk of which

contains an examination and ruthless refutation of other Advaitins (at

least nine schools have been identified by Mahadeven in his English

translation of the Sambanda Vartica, all of whom adopted different

'methodologies and teachings' (Prakriya bhedas) from those of Shankara

and Suresvara) even though they all taught 'tat tvam asi'?

 

Shanakra in his Gita commentary, chap 13.says there is only one method

of teaching. He calls it Adhyapropa Apavada (The Method of

Deliberate Superimposition and Rescission), He quotes ancient

Vedantins as being knowers of this methodology, and concludes by

stating that "though a man be learned in all the scriptures, should he

be bereft of this traditional method of teaching (Adhyaropa Apavada)

HE SHOULD BE DISREGARDED LIKE A FOOL.LIKE THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND"

 

Hari Om

Atmachaitanya

 

 

 

advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> Namaste!

>

> > Dear Dennis, and all others interested in this subject, (the rest

> deleted in order not to choke the "electronic super-highway" as Shri

> Ram Chandranji calls it.)

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Share on other sites

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Hari Om !!

 

Sri Atmachaitanya, would you please clarify the following:

 

1. Is it your position that Avidya is Adhyasa and, Avidya is not

Maya; or is it more than that ?

 

2. After accepting that Avidya does not mean or equate to Maya, do

you still disagree with the definition of Trigunatmika Maya for the

cause of the creation of the Universe. Here I simply mean the

evolution of elements and the universe of objects and the three Gunas

etc. Is there any problem in this regard, based on original Sankara's

teachings about what Maya is ?

 

3. How this controversy should effect a Sadhak in his/her sadhana and

hence realisation?

 

Kindly clarify.

 

Om Namo Narayanaya !!

 

Srikrishna

 

 

Is it only "Avidya" that is mis-interpreted by the later day

Advaitins or even the definition of Maya as Trigunatimika as the

cause of

 

 

advaitin, "atmachaitanya108" <stadri@a...> wrote:

> Dear Sri Madathilnair,

>

> Please allow me to respond to some of the points that you raise

> regarding my answer to the question: Whence Adhyasa?

>

> With reference to points 1,2 and 4, in which you indicate that it

was

> I, who introduced this subject of "Bhava Rupa Mula Avidya", I

concede

> the observation. And the reason I did so was that everyone at this

> Advaitin web site presumably has an interest in Shankaras' Advaita

> Vedanta. And anyone who is familiar with the literature associated

> with this tradition has come across this "Root Ignorance" theory.

It

> is to be found not only in works falsely ascribed to Shankara, such

as

> Vivekachudamani, and many other popular 'Prakarana Granthas', but

it

> is a theory which has been developed and expounded upon in many

> important independent works such as Vidyarayanas' Panchadasi,

> Prakashatma Yatis' Vivarana, Sri Harshas' Khandana, Citsukas'

Tatva

> Pradipika, and Sarvajnatmans' Sankshepa Sariraka, to mention only

a

> few. But let it not be assumed that this theory of Root Ignorance

is

> merely a historical artifact, and not relevant to the current,

modern

> day Advaita Vedantins, for this very same theory is being

propagated,

> in the name of Shankara, by all the current 'Shankaracharyas' at

the

> main Mutts, as well as the most prominent and popular Swamis now

> 'representing' the tradition of Shankaras' Advaita. It is because

I

> am convinced that their answer to the question Whence Adhyasa?, is

> false, opposed to reason and experience, contradicts Shankaras own

> position on the subject, and degrades the sublime Absolutist

teachings

> of Vedanta to the level of dry dialectics, 'realism', theological

> dogmatism, the abandonment of Non Duality and finally (and most

> importantly) the impossibility of putting an end to Samsara once

the

> theory of 'Root Ignorance' is accepted, because Knowledge could

never

> destroy it, that I went to such lengths to refute it..

>

> With reference to the issues you raise in point 8 in which you ask:

> "How can Adhyasa, without Bhava Rupa, give rise to an Unreal Not-

Self

> of beings with Bhava Rupa?" and again, "How can a misconception

> (immaterial cause) result in a material Universe?" Let me respond

by

> stating that the 'beings' that appear due to Adhyasa are not

existent

> (Bhava Rupa) at any time, either before their manifestation, during

> their manifestation, or after their disappearance. The Universe

that

> appears due to misconception is not 'material' but merely an

illusion,

> and its true nature was, is and forever will be, always Atman

alone.

> It is true that there have been a number of 'Advaita Vedantins' who

> advocated the actual birth of 'illusory objects' and attributed a

> certain kind of 'existence to them (pratibasika satta), but this is

> totally foreign to Shankaras declarations and to common sense. When

we

> mistake a rope for a snake, that snake never had any existence of

its

> own. And after we correct this misconception by getting the correct

> knowledge of the rope, no actually existing snake of any kind was

ever

> destroyed. We all take the position that there never was a snake in

> all the three periods of time, past present and future. It should

be

> clearly remembered that according to Shankara,''an appearance is

> something which seems to exist, but which in truth never existed at

> all'. In addition, Shankara points out the indisputable fact that

no

> appearance could ever manifest without there being an actually

> existent substratum or basis for that appearance. The snake could

not

> appear without the existence of a rope, and the appearance of the

> universe could not manifest without there being the Self as its

> underlying reality (adhistana).

>

>

> The point that you make in number13, is the outcome of a total

> confusion regarding Shankaras position about Adhyasa. You state"

There

> cannot be any superimposition due to mixing up of the distinct

> qualities of each other. We already agreed that no qualities exist

in

> the Absolute, and from the Absolute perspective. To put it crudely,

> the Self does not have any qualities at all." Dear Madatilnair,

what

> I 'agreed' to was that in the Absolute or from the Absolute

> perspective there never was, is or will be any Ignorance or

> Superimposition, nor its removal. However for the sake of

> discriminating between the Self and the Not-Self, Shankara is not

at

> all reluctant to say that the 'qualities' of Consciousness and

Being

> belong to the Self alone and never to the Not-Self. In his Adhyasa

> Bhasya he describes the true 'I', the Subject (vishayi) as

Chitatmika

> (Of the nature of Consciousness). To say Consciousness and

Existence

> are qualities of the Self is like saying that heat and light are

the

> 'qualities of fire. It is their very nature (Svarupa). So in this

> context, the word 'quality' does not refer to some attribute that

> belongs to something of which it could dispense with and still

remain

> that thing. It refers to the very nature of the Self, in the same

way

> that it is the very nature of fire to have heat and light. Unlike

the

> 'qualities' of beauty and ugliness or intelligence, with reference

to

> a person who could continue to be that very same person even if

those

> attributes were to change. It is the 'qualities' of Consciousness

and

> Existence that are falsely attributed (Adhyasa) to the Non-Self

that

> makes everyone think that their bodies, senses and mind are

conscious

> and that they exist.

>

> You state in 14,that "The whole argument of the post is built

mainly

> on the rope-snake example, which has its own limitations". But this

is

> not my example, it is Shankaras. He uses this example throughout

his

> commentaries repeatedly, and he does so because it suits his

purpose

> quite well. It is an illustration from worldly life that we are all

> familiar with and which demonstrates that people do mistake one

thing

> for another, that the mistaken 'thing' never existed where it was

> thought to have existed and that after the correct knowledge of the

> thing the appearance is sublated . As to the limitation of this

> illustration, in that it does not match up exactly with what is

being

> illustrated, Shankara admits to the defect, but points out that if

the

> illustration was exactly the same as what was being illustrated, it

> would merely be a tautology, and would no longer serve as a

teaching

> device.

>

> And in conclusion, I would like to respond to your final summation,

> which accurately portrays an opinion that is shared by most

Indian

> pundits and Western Indologists. You state: "May I conclude by

quoting

> the very realistic Shri Jaishankarji…" Finally I want to state that

> all these things are only prakriyaabedhas (Differences in the

> methodology and teaching) as we all agree on what is to be taught

> which is 'tat tvam asi'."

>

> I can only say that I take this position be a great disservice to

the

> contributions that was made by Shankara regarding the clarification

of

> important Vedantic concepts, in clarifying, for the first time in

> Vedantic literature, what exactly is the nature of Ignorance, and

> indicating exactly what were the defects in the other Advaitic

> schools, (despite the fact that they all taught 'tat tvam asi', and

> that were prevalent during his times and before him), so that the

> sincere seekers of truth would not be lead astray.

> Why does Shankara refute the Karmajnana Samuchya vadins (the theory

> that by a combination of actions and knowledge one attained

moksha)?

> They were Advaitins who taught 'tat tvam asi'. And why did he

refute

> the prasankyana vadins (those who held that after the attainment of

> knowledge, that knowledge had to be repeated to make it strong

enough

> to ward off the old vasanas. They were Advaitins who taught 'tat

tvam

> asi' And why did Shankara refute the notion that Nirvikalpa Samadhi

> was the means to the knowledge of the Self, even though many modern

> day and ancient Vedantins hold such a view and all teach 'tat tvam

> asi'? Who were the "Vritikaras' (previous commentators) that

Shankara

> examines in his Gita commentary and refutes mercilessly calling

them

> "idiots"(Murkaha), despite the fact that they were Advaitins all

> teaching 'tat tvam asi'. And how is it that Suresvaracharya could

> compose 14000 verses for his Brihidaranyaka Vartica, the bulk of

which

> contains an examination and ruthless refutation of other Advaitins

(at

> least nine schools have been identified by Mahadeven in his English

> translation of the Sambanda Vartica, all of whom adopted different

> 'methodologies and teachings' (Prakriya bhedas) from those of

Shankara

> and Suresvara) even though they all taught 'tat tvam asi'?

>

> Shanakra in his Gita commentary, chap 13.says there is only one

method

> of teaching. He calls it Adhyapropa Apavada (The Method of

> Deliberate Superimposition and Rescission), He quotes ancient

> Vedantins as being knowers of this methodology, and concludes by

> stating that "though a man be learned in all the scriptures, should

he

> be bereft of this traditional method of teaching (Adhyaropa

Apavada)

> HE SHOULD BE DISREGARDED LIKE A FOOL.LIKE THE BLIND LEADING THE

BLIND"

>

> Hari Om

> Atmachaitanya

>

>

>

> advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> > Namaste!

> >

>

> > > Dear Dennis, and all others interested in this subject, (the

rest

> > deleted in order not to choke the "electronic super-highway" as

Shri

> > Ram Chandranji calls it.)

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Share on other sites

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Namaste Atmachaitanyaji

 

You mentioned: "It is because I am convinced that their answer to the

question Whence Adhyasa?, is

false, opposed to reason and experience, contradicts Shankaras own

position on the subject, and degrades the sublime Absolutist teachings

of Vedanta to the level of dry dialectics, 'realism', theological

dogmatism, the abandonment of Non Duality and finally (and most

importantly) the impossibility of putting an end to Samsara once the

theory of 'Root Ignorance' is accepted, because Knowledge could never

destroy it, that I went to such lengths to refute it."

 

K: None of the present traditional teachers have abandoned non-duality by

postulating a mula avidya. At least I am yet to know of one. Although they

might disagree on matters concerning Nirvikalpa Samadhi or even shastra

pramana but everyone accepts that there is One unchanging, eternal

Consciousness. I am also not convinced with your explanation that the

acceptance of mulavidya can't put an end to samsara. When Atma alone is

given the status of Satyam and when everything else is given the status of

Mithya (including mula avidya), what problem will there be for you with

regards removal of Samsara. I think you are unnecassarily confusing yourself

by accepting mula avidya to be Satyam..sort of a parallel reality to Atma.

Although it may exist in the waking, dreaming and the deep sleep state, but

it is NOT invariable (or changeless) . Ignorance varies with the three

states therefore making it also mithya. So what's the problem?

 

When asked by Nairji, "How can Adhyasa, without Bhava Rupa, give rise to an

Unreal Not-Self of beings with Bhava Rupa?" & "How can a misconception

(immaterial cause) result in a material Universe?", you (atmachaitanya) have

conveniently answered the question by shifting the standpoint of vyvaharika

to paramarthika. As anyone would know, that everything can be resolved at

the paramarthika level (in fact there is nothing to be resolved) BUT the

question asked by Nairji is from the standpoint of vyavaharika alone. So is

this an attempt to evade the question?

 

You have mentioned that Shankara has explicitly claimed that no one will be

able to know the teachings or the method without knowing the tradition.

Therefore, we know that this methodology is passed down from time

immemorial. But I am particularly interested and curious to know who is the

link to this ancient sampradaya before your own Guru? Who is the teacher of

your Guru who forms a part of this teaching tradition? Then only can I

accept the teachings of yours as authentic.

 

With luv,

Kathi

>

> atmachaitanya108 [sMTP:stadri]

> Wednesday, March 27, 2002 7:59 AM

> advaitin

> Re: Whence Adhyasa

>

> Dear Sri Madathilnair,

>

> Please allow me to respond to some of the points that you raise

> regarding my answer to the question: Whence Adhyasa?

>

> With reference to points 1,2 and 4, in which you indicate that it was

> I, who introduced this subject of "Bhava Rupa Mula Avidya", I concede

> the observation. And the reason I did so was that everyone at this

> Advaitin web site presumably has an interest in Shankaras' Advaita

> Vedanta. And anyone who is familiar with the literature associated

> with this tradition has come across this "Root Ignorance" theory. It

> is to be found not only in works falsely ascribed to Shankara, such as

> Vivekachudamani, and many other popular 'Prakarana Granthas', but it

> is a theory which has been developed and expounded upon in many

> important independent works such as Vidyarayanas' Panchadasi,

> Prakashatma Yatis' Vivarana, Sri Harshas' Khandana, Citsukas' Tatva

> Pradipika, and Sarvajnatmans' Sankshepa Sariraka, to mention only a

> few. But let it not be assumed that this theory of Root Ignorance is

> merely a historical artifact, and not relevant to the current, modern

> day Advaita Vedantins, for this very same theory is being propagated,

> in the name of Shankara, by all the current 'Shankaracharyas' at the

> main Mutts, as well as the most prominent and popular Swamis now

> 'representing' the tradition of Shankaras' Advaita. It is because I

> am convinced that their answer to the question Whence Adhyasa?, is

> false, opposed to reason and experience, contradicts Shankaras own

> position on the subject, and degrades the sublime Absolutist teachings

> of Vedanta to the level of dry dialectics, 'realism', theological

> dogmatism, the abandonment of Non Duality and finally (and most

> importantly) the impossibility of putting an end to Samsara once the

> theory of 'Root Ignorance' is accepted, because Knowledge could never

> destroy it, that I went to such lengths to refute it..

>

> With reference to the issues you raise in point 8 in which you ask:

> "How can Adhyasa, without Bhava Rupa, give rise to an Unreal Not-Self

> of beings with Bhava Rupa?" and again, "How can a misconception

> (immaterial cause) result in a material Universe?" Let me respond by

> stating that the 'beings' that appear due to Adhyasa are not existent

> (Bhava Rupa) at any time, either before their manifestation, during

> their manifestation, or after their disappearance. The Universe that

> appears due to misconception is not 'material' but merely an illusion,

> and its true nature was, is and forever will be, always Atman alone.

> It is true that there have been a number of 'Advaita Vedantins' who

> advocated the actual birth of 'illusory objects' and attributed a

> certain kind of 'existence to them (pratibasika satta), but this is

> totally foreign to Shankaras declarations and to common sense. When we

> mistake a rope for a snake, that snake never had any existence of its

> own. And after we correct this misconception by getting the correct

> knowledge of the rope, no actually existing snake of any kind was ever

> destroyed. We all take the position that there never was a snake in

> all the three periods of time, past present and future. It should be

> clearly remembered that according to Shankara,''an appearance is

> something which seems to exist, but which in truth never existed at

> all'. In addition, Shankara points out the indisputable fact that no

> appearance could ever manifest without there being an actually

> existent substratum or basis for that appearance. The snake could not

> appear without the existence of a rope, and the appearance of the

> universe could not manifest without there being the Self as its

> underlying reality (adhistana).

>

>

> The point that you make in number13, is the outcome of a total

> confusion regarding Shankaras position about Adhyasa. You state" There

> cannot be any superimposition due to mixing up of the distinct

> qualities of each other. We already agreed that no qualities exist in

> the Absolute, and from the Absolute perspective. To put it crudely,

> the Self does not have any qualities at all." Dear Madatilnair, what

> I 'agreed' to was that in the Absolute or from the Absolute

> perspective there never was, is or will be any Ignorance or

> Superimposition, nor its removal. However for the sake of

> discriminating between the Self and the Not-Self, Shankara is not at

> all reluctant to say that the 'qualities' of Consciousness and Being

> belong to the Self alone and never to the Not-Self. In his Adhyasa

> Bhasya he describes the true 'I', the Subject (vishayi) as Chitatmika

> (Of the nature of Consciousness). To say Consciousness and Existence

> are qualities of the Self is like saying that heat and light are the

> 'qualities of fire. It is their very nature (Svarupa). So in this

> context, the word 'quality' does not refer to some attribute that

> belongs to something of which it could dispense with and still remain

> that thing. It refers to the very nature of the Self, in the same way

> that it is the very nature of fire to have heat and light. Unlike the

> 'qualities' of beauty and ugliness or intelligence, with reference to

> a person who could continue to be that very same person even if those

> attributes were to change. It is the 'qualities' of Consciousness and

> Existence that are falsely attributed (Adhyasa) to the Non-Self that

> makes everyone think that their bodies, senses and mind are conscious

> and that they exist.

>

> You state in 14,that "The whole argument of the post is built mainly

> on the rope-snake example, which has its own limitations". But this is

> not my example, it is Shankaras. He uses this example throughout his

> commentaries repeatedly, and he does so because it suits his purpose

> quite well. It is an illustration from worldly life that we are all

> familiar with and which demonstrates that people do mistake one thing

> for another, that the mistaken 'thing' never existed where it was

> thought to have existed and that after the correct knowledge of the

> thing the appearance is sublated . As to the limitation of this

> illustration, in that it does not match up exactly with what is being

> illustrated, Shankara admits to the defect, but points out that if the

> illustration was exactly the same as what was being illustrated, it

> would merely be a tautology, and would no longer serve as a teaching

> device.

>

> And in conclusion, I would like to respond to your final summation,

> which accurately portrays an opinion that is shared by most Indian

> pundits and Western Indologists. You state: "May I conclude by quoting

> the very realistic Shri Jaishankarji..." Finally I want to state that

> all these things are only prakriyaabedhas (Differences in the

> methodology and teaching) as we all agree on what is to be taught

> which is 'tat tvam asi'."

>

> I can only say that I take this position be a great disservice to the

> contributions that was made by Shankara regarding the clarification of

> important Vedantic concepts, in clarifying, for the first time in

> Vedantic literature, what exactly is the nature of Ignorance, and

> indicating exactly what were the defects in the other Advaitic

> schools, (despite the fact that they all taught 'tat tvam asi', and

> that were prevalent during his times and before him), so that the

> sincere seekers of truth would not be lead astray.

> Why does Shankara refute the Karmajnana Samuchya vadins (the theory

> that by a combination of actions and knowledge one attained moksha)?

> They were Advaitins who taught 'tat tvam asi'. And why did he refute

> the prasankyana vadins (those who held that after the attainment of

> knowledge, that knowledge had to be repeated to make it strong enough

> to ward off the old vasanas. They were Advaitins who taught 'tat tvam

> asi' And why did Shankara refute the notion that Nirvikalpa Samadhi

> was the means to the knowledge of the Self, even though many modern

> day and ancient Vedantins hold such a view and all teach 'tat tvam

> asi'? Who were the "Vritikaras' (previous commentators) that Shankara

> examines in his Gita commentary and refutes mercilessly calling them

> "idiots"(Murkaha), despite the fact that they were Advaitins all

> teaching 'tat tvam asi'. And how is it that Suresvaracharya could

> compose 14000 verses for his Brihidaranyaka Vartica, the bulk of which

> contains an examination and ruthless refutation of other Advaitins (at

> least nine schools have been identified by Mahadeven in his English

> translation of the Sambanda Vartica, all of whom adopted different

> 'methodologies and teachings' (Prakriya bhedas) from those of Shankara

> and Suresvara) even though they all taught 'tat tvam asi'?

>

> Shanakra in his Gita commentary, chap 13.says there is only one method

> of teaching. He calls it Adhyapropa Apavada (The Method of

> Deliberate Superimposition and Rescission), He quotes ancient

> Vedantins as being knowers of this methodology, and concludes by

> stating that "though a man be learned in all the scriptures, should he

> be bereft of this traditional method of teaching (Adhyaropa Apavada)

> HE SHOULD BE DISREGARDED LIKE A FOOL.LIKE THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND"

>

> Hari Om

> Atmachaitanya

>

>

>

> advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> > Namaste!

> >

>

> > > Dear Dennis, and all others interested in this subject, (the rest

> > deleted in order not to choke the "electronic super-highway" as Shri

> > Ram Chandranji calls it.)

>

>

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

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Dear Shri Atmachaitanyaji,

 

I am indeed very grateful to you for your clarifications.

 

At the outset, permit me to make the following clear:

 

1.I am a grihastha who dabble in Vedanta off and on. My arguments

may, therefore, have pitfalls and lack continuity of thought and the

exact logic pertinent to the points under discussion.

 

2. However, I would like to learn and that is exactly why I am making

impatient attempts to present my points of view.

 

3. Even amidst my responsibilities as a householder, I do contemplate

over vedantic issues and teachings most of the time. This practice

has produced some insights (on vedantic teachings) of an experiential

nature. Mostly, I base my points of view on such insights, which

practice, I admit, has its own benefits, as well as dangers due to

being subjective.

 

4. Before I began writing through this Advaitin forum in January this

year, I had never expressed myself in print at any time, although

talking Vedanta ad infinitum to my bored family and friends has quite

some time been my intense passion. I am, therefore, a simple

freshman.

 

Kindly, therefore, grant me the benefit of your understanding.

 

Let us now get down to the business in hand.

 

(a) I have nothing to say about your raison d'etre for refuting the

Moola Avidya vadins. I don't think I am competent enough, at the

moment, to defend either point of view except that I can only

acknowledge the existence of ignorance in the form of

misconception.

 

(b) Thanks for elaborating on Sankara's position about adhyasa. I

admit my misunderstanding and would like to confess that I have not

studied or even read adhyasa bhasya or an authentic interpretation of

it excepting that I have heard passing references to adhyasa in

discourses given by different teachers.

 

© Your explanation has triggered new insights in this regard and,

in this context, I am rather disappointed that you did not dwell on

my point No. 12. Your reason may possibly be that it was slightly

outside the main track. To recapitulate, was it not the chitatmika

nature of the Self that I (unknowingly) endeavoured to articulate in

point No. 12? If yes, you have granted Sankara's authority to my

thoughts. In fact, I would now like to expand my point of view.

 

(d) I said before that the one and only "LIGHTING UP" could be

appreciated by recognizing that It is the common denominator of

all "lighting ups". To look at it another way, each

individual "lighting up" of awareness can be endlessly reduced

(theoretically at least) to its `very basics'. Fundamentally, the

big LIGHTING UP can be seen to remain at the bottom of everything as

the essential Substratum, which is nothing but the chitatmika

Consciousness. With such reduction to fundamental levels,

a `tending' towards qualitylessness and formlessness can also be seen

to occur. This is applicable to everything perceived - objects,

thoughts, ideas, concepts, experiences, etc. etc. pointing to the

fact that fundamentally all things seen differently in our ordinary

vyavahara (prathibhasathmika also included) are just the 'Same'.

 

(d) In this analysis and in point (12) of my previous message, is it

not important to note that the principle of Unity has been recognized

and appreciated without bringing entities like mind, intellect etc.

etc., which shine after chitatmika Consciousness? I admit that it is

very necessary to talk about mind, intellect etc. to elucidate

vedantic principles or, as I would like to put it, to

systematize "Ignorance" . Beyond that, do we have to permit them to

cloud, confound and impede our vision of the Absolute which can be

demonstrated to exist even without their assistance as explained

above?

 

(e) Besides, if the Truth is appreciated and the misconception about

it is realized on the above lines, then is there a need to look where

that misconception is occurring? It can't be occurring anywhere

other than to the "enquirer" himself/herself as you have concluded or

as Sankara answered: "To you who are asking this question".

 

(f) Disappointingly again, you seem to have overlooked my point

No.7. That is the heart of the matter – your ultimate logic for the

above conclusion. To rephrase my question more clearly, how can the

cause or origin or whence of "something" come into being at the same

instant as that "something"? In the rope-snake example the

misconception is the snake itself, i.e. the misconception is not

the "whence" of the snake or vice versa. But, in individual (mind) –

adhyasa issue there are two distinct entities which are essentially

not the same.

 

(g) Till this question is convincingly answered, I, with my limited

intellectual resources, have no other alternative but to move with

the crowd, which may or may not include some Moola Avidya vadins too.

And that cannot be a disservice to Shankara! As I mentioned above, I

acknowledge the existence of a misconception, I know I am

the `ignorant' one and Sankara is my authority thereto. I hope my

situation will be appreciated.

 

Best regards,

 

Madathil Nair

 

 

advaitin, "atmachaitanya108" <stadri@a...> wrote:

> Dear Sri Madathilnair,

>

> Please allow me to respond to some of the points that you raise

> regarding my answer to the question: Whence Adhyasa?

>

>

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Many thanks to Sri Atmachaitanya for the brilliantly lucid exposition on

this topic. I may have waited several weeks for a satisfactory explanation

to this apparently insoluble problem but it was worth it! I certainly feel

happy with this way of looking at things and it leaves one's faith in the

philosophy (as propounded by Shankara) unshaken. I am indebted.

 

Dennis

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Dear K Kathirasan NCS,

 

If you really take the position that Mula Avidya (Root Ignorance-

An Avidya that is completely different from the three well known

categories of merely 'Not Knowing' 'Doubting' and 'Misconceiving') is

Mithya (false) then we have no fundamental disagreement Beause if it

is false then it can be said to be removed by knowledge.. But please

take note, that if it is false, then it too must be the result of a

Misconception (Adhyasa). The 'false snake' cannot appear without the

misconception.. It must be Avidya Kalpita, Imagined by Ignorance. We

all see a world. We all feel that it must exist in some manner, we

therefore imagine a cause for that world, a cause that actually

exists, or exists in a peculiar way, such as 'neither existent nor

non-existent', and that must somehow cover Brahman and result in the

world that we see. But the world and its inferred cause are both

superimpositions on the Self. Just like the misconceived snake and its

'cause', 'the inferred mother of that snake. When we realize there

never was a 'snake' what happens to the 'inferred mother', which was

the 'cause' of that snake? When we realize that there never was any

duality, or world, what will happen to that imagined 'cause' for the

supposed Duality or world? They were both just Misconceptions.

Superimposition (Adhyasa) has to be in full play to even see a world

or imagine its cause. Cause and Effect only arise with the appearance

of Duality and Time (In Duality the cause must come first, the effect

after). Duality is a Superimposition on the Self, a 'wrong' knowledge

regarding the Self, a 'misconception' about the Self. It is knowledge

of the Self that can destroy this 'Misconception' (Adhyasa) about the

Non-Dual Self . Knowledge can do nothing more, and nothing more need

be done. (This is the view of deliberate Superimposition, Adhyaropa,

the Empirical View). When it is understood that there is only the One

Self Without a Second, then we realize that no one ever had any

misconception, and no knowledge was ever needed to remove that

misconception. All of this Avidya and Vidya has also been the outcome

of a misconception. There has always been only the Self (This is the

Apavada in the methodology of Vedanta, even the teachings of Vidya and

Avidya are rescinded in the end, Not This, Not This). As Advaitins,

we certainly both agree that Ultimately there never was any Ignorance

at all. Not that Ignorance really existed from beginingless time and

really inhered in the Absolute.And that we, somehow, have to really

remove it to get free.

 

If you try to clarify your position by stating that even in your

theory Root Ignorance is also false from the Absolute view point, and

that it is only from the empirical view that we put forth this

teaching. . Then I reply that our disagreement is, of course, only

from the empirical point of view.I am not shifting viewpoints and then

merely dismissing Madatilnairs' objections from the absolute point of

view. It is from the empirical view point that I answered the

objections. It is from the Empirical view point that we disagree about

the nature of Ignorance as well as it cause. I hold that from the

empirical point of view, to teach that: 'Due to 'not knowing the Self'

we have misconceived it as the false Not-Self', is a teaching that

points out a universal fact that is verifiable by all in there own

experience. We have all mixed the Witness with the Witnessed; even

this Vedantic teaching is proceeding due to this most basic

misconception (Adhyasa) of taking the Witness for the Witnessed. For

without misconceiving that we are the body senses and mind (which

experience can verify as a misconception, for in experience, the body

senses and mind are forever the "Witnessed" and never the Witness),

we can't be 'knowers', we can't be ignorant of anything, including the

the Self Evident, Self Manifest, Self, we cant seek out a Guru who is

different from us and who will teach us the correct knowledge of the

Self. All this proceeds on this fundamental Misconception (this I take

to be Shankaras teaching from the empirical point of view, the

Adhyaropa, 'Deliberate Superimposition' point of view). As opposed

to the 'empirical point of view' in which a theory is put forth,

(totally divorced from any common experience that could be relied upon

to confirm it) in which we postulate a begingingless positive cause

(not merely imagined, but an existing Indescribable, Anirvachiniya, '

empirical thing' that is the 'cause' for both the appearance of

duality and the imagination, misconception (Adhyasa) about it - for

MulaAvidya Vadins misconception is caused, it is the effect of this

inert twofold power to it cover Reality (avarana Shakti) and project

the world (vikhepa Shakti), a power that projects not only the world

but all the individuals in the world, who each have their own

personal misconceptions, and it is not merely 'not knowing' that

makes misconceptions appear). A Bhava Rupa 'power'. that we have to

somehow 'destroy' or remove by knowledge. How exactly Knowledge

accomplishes this 'empirical' feat is never made clear. And if

knowledge could ever get rid of this Anadi Tri Guna Atmika Prikriti

(the beginingless primal nature which is made up of three Gunas and

which is a synonym for Mula Avidya), then liberation would be both an

effect and an event in time, and thus non-eternal.

 

Hari Om

Atmachaitanya

 

P.S. I would like to extend my thanks to all the participants in this

discussion about the 'Whence of Adhayasa'. To Stig Lundgren for

making available that fantastic article on Adhyasa Bhasya, (it should

be made mandatory reading for all those who are serious about trying

to get to the heart of Shankaras Advaita), and especially to those

who have objected and will continue to object to the views I have

presented, as well as to those who moderate and maintain this Advaitin

web site. It has allowed me the opportunity to articulate and ponder

and be challenged over this profound and subtle subject of Adhyasa and

its 'cause'. Where else could one find a forum whose stated intent is

to discuss primarily Shanakras' Advaita Vedanta Philosophy and

Practice, and its related issues. I hope that the pedantic and

aggressive style of my posts haven't overly offended those who are

also analyzing and trying to understand these very same issues. Each

inquirer will ultimately decide for himself on the "Whence of Adhyasa"

one way or the other, or suspend judgment or decide that it really

isn't that important and move on to other things, perhaps thanking

the Supreme for their remaining Avidyalesha, so they can enjoy the

Lila.

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Namaste Atmachaitanyaji

 

Thanks for this clarification. I find myself more in agreement with you now

than ever. Of course, I still maintain that an acceptance of a Bhavarupa

avidya poses no problem to the removal samsara as long as I know that it is

mithya too. With regards to avidya being anadi, i think the word anadi

should be interpreted as not 'begininglessness' but rather 'untraceable

beginning'. pls comment.

 

I have one more question for you, that is if you don't mind. Now that I know

that I am the absolute Brahman why is it that I still have the fear of

duality? Shastra declares that 'the one who knows this Truth crosses fear'.

But why is it that despite discussing and being convinced 'intellectually'

(is this the right word? nevermind) that Brahman alone IS, why do I still

feel that I am 'ignorant', 'a seeker', 'a doer' etc.....Or what can I do to

overcome this? Pls advise.

 

Anyway, Atmachaitanyaji I enjoyed studying all your posts and have learnt

alot from it. I thank you for that and would like to let you know that I

wasn't offended by any of your posts although i could have offended you with

my replies. I am sorry for that.

 

Kathi

>

> atmachaitanya108 [sMTP:stadri]

> Thursday, March 28, 2002 3:06 PM

> advaitin

> Re: Whence Adhyasa

>

> Dear K Kathirasan NCS,

>

> If you really take the position that Mula Avidya (Root Ignorance-

> An Avidya that is completely different from the three well known

> categories of merely 'Not Knowing' 'Doubting' and 'Misconceiving') is

> Mithya (false) then we have no fundamental disagreement Beause if it

> is false then it can be said to be removed by knowledge.. But please

> take note, that if it is false, then it too must be the result of a

> Misconception (Adhyasa). The 'false snake' cannot appear without the

> misconception.. It must be Avidya Kalpita, Imagined by Ignorance. We

> all see a world. We all feel that it must exist in some manner, we

> therefore imagine a cause for that world, a cause that actually

> exists, or exists in a peculiar way, such as 'neither existent nor

> non-existent', and that must somehow cover Brahman and result in the

> world that we see. But the world and its inferred cause are both

> superimpositions on the Self. Just like the misconceived snake and its

> 'cause', 'the inferred mother of that snake. When we realize there

> never was a 'snake' what happens to the 'inferred mother', which was

> the 'cause' of that snake? When we realize that there never was any

> duality, or world, what will happen to that imagined 'cause' for the

> supposed Duality or world? They were both just Misconceptions.

> Superimposition (Adhyasa) has to be in full play to even see a world

> or imagine its cause. Cause and Effect only arise with the appearance

> of Duality and Time (In Duality the cause must come first, the effect

> after). Duality is a Superimposition on the Self, a 'wrong' knowledge

> regarding the Self, a 'misconception' about the Self. It is knowledge

> of the Self that can destroy this 'Misconception' (Adhyasa) about the

> Non-Dual Self . Knowledge can do nothing more, and nothing more need

> be done. (This is the view of deliberate Superimposition, Adhyaropa,

> the Empirical View). When it is understood that there is only the One

> Self Without a Second, then we realize that no one ever had any

> misconception, and no knowledge was ever needed to remove that

> misconception. All of this Avidya and Vidya has also been the outcome

> of a misconception. There has always been only the Self (This is the

> Apavada in the methodology of Vedanta, even the teachings of Vidya and

> Avidya are rescinded in the end, Not This, Not This). As Advaitins,

> we certainly both agree that Ultimately there never was any Ignorance

> at all. Not that Ignorance really existed from beginingless time and

> really inhered in the Absolute.And that we, somehow, have to really

> remove it to get free.

>

> If you try to clarify your position by stating that even in your

> theory Root Ignorance is also false from the Absolute view point, and

> that it is only from the empirical view that we put forth this

> teaching. . Then I reply that our disagreement is, of course, only

> from the empirical point of view.I am not shifting viewpoints and then

> merely dismissing Madatilnairs' objections from the absolute point of

> view. It is from the empirical view point that I answered the

> objections. It is from the Empirical view point that we disagree about

> the nature of Ignorance as well as it cause. I hold that from the

> empirical point of view, to teach that: 'Due to 'not knowing the Self'

> we have misconceived it as the false Not-Self', is a teaching that

> points out a universal fact that is verifiable by all in there own

> experience. We have all mixed the Witness with the Witnessed; even

> this Vedantic teaching is proceeding due to this most basic

> misconception (Adhyasa) of taking the Witness for the Witnessed. For

> without misconceiving that we are the body senses and mind (which

> experience can verify as a misconception, for in experience, the body

> senses and mind are forever the "Witnessed" and never the Witness),

> we can't be 'knowers', we can't be ignorant of anything, including the

> the Self Evident, Self Manifest, Self, we cant seek out a Guru who is

> different from us and who will teach us the correct knowledge of the

> Self. All this proceeds on this fundamental Misconception (this I take

> to be Shankaras teaching from the empirical point of view, the

> Adhyaropa, 'Deliberate Superimposition' point of view). As opposed

> to the 'empirical point of view' in which a theory is put forth,

> (totally divorced from any common experience that could be relied upon

> to confirm it) in which we postulate a begingingless positive cause

> (not merely imagined, but an existing Indescribable, Anirvachiniya, '

> empirical thing' that is the 'cause' for both the appearance of

> duality and the imagination, misconception (Adhyasa) about it - for

> MulaAvidya Vadins misconception is caused, it is the effect of this

> inert twofold power to it cover Reality (avarana Shakti) and project

> the world (vikhepa Shakti), a power that projects not only the world

> but all the individuals in the world, who each have their own

> personal misconceptions, and it is not merely 'not knowing' that

> makes misconceptions appear). A Bhava Rupa 'power'. that we have to

> somehow 'destroy' or remove by knowledge. How exactly Knowledge

> accomplishes this 'empirical' feat is never made clear. And if

> knowledge could ever get rid of this Anadi Tri Guna Atmika Prikriti

> (the beginingless primal nature which is made up of three Gunas and

> which is a synonym for Mula Avidya), then liberation would be both an

> effect and an event in time, and thus non-eternal.

>

> Hari Om

> Atmachaitanya

>

> P.S. I would like to extend my thanks to all the participants in this

> discussion about the 'Whence of Adhayasa'. To Stig Lundgren for

> making available that fantastic article on Adhyasa Bhasya, (it should

> be made mandatory reading for all those who are serious about trying

> to get to the heart of Shankaras Advaita), and especially to those

> who have objected and will continue to object to the views I have

> presented, as well as to those who moderate and maintain this Advaitin

> web site. It has allowed me the opportunity to articulate and ponder

> and be challenged over this profound and subtle subject of Adhyasa and

> its 'cause'. Where else could one find a forum whose stated intent is

> to discuss primarily Shanakras' Advaita Vedanta Philosophy and

> Practice, and its related issues. I hope that the pedantic and

> aggressive style of my posts haven't overly offended those who are

> also analyzing and trying to understand these very same issues. Each

> inquirer will ultimately decide for himself on the "Whence of Adhyasa"

> one way or the other, or suspend judgment or decide that it really

> isn't that important and move on to other things, perhaps thanking

> the Supreme for their remaining Avidyalesha, so they can enjoy the

> Lila.

>

>

>

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

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Dear Shri Atmachaitanyaji,

 

Reading your brilliant post was indeed an electrifying experience.

Thanks to you for the explanation and to Shri Kathirasanji for the

incisive prodding.

>From the P.S. to your post, I am afraid you are closing shop and

calling it a day. Not yet please, Shri Atmachaitanyaji.

 

We, those who have not delved into Adhyasa Bhashya, will certainly

read the recommended article. In the meanwhile, as I indicated in my

last post, I am still not sure if I can accept the logic that you

employed to clinch your conclusion that the limited "I", the enquirer

who is affected by the misconception, is himself/herself the "whence"

of the misconception (adhyasa).

 

Like the appearance of the snake and the appearance of the

misconception are simultaneous, you have pointed out that the

appearance of the mind (the "I" who asks "Whence Adhyasa?") and

misconception (Adhyasa itself) are simultaneous. I have almost

continuously been ruminating over your argument and still find it

very unconvincing due to the reasons already mentioned in my previous

posts and also due to the fact that the answer to the question in

this particular case does not substatianate or validate the very

question itself. What I mean is that since the "whence" of something

is looked for, logically that "whence" should, if it exists, precede

the something. The rope-snake example is not just adequate as I

explained before because the snake itself is the misconception there.

 

Sorry to bother you with all this. There is yet another doubt. In

your last post of 26th March, you very kindly cleared my

misunderstanding about Shankara's viewpoint of Adhyasa. You then

pointed out: "For the sake of discriminating between the Self and

the Not-Self, Shankara is not at all reluctant to say that

the `qualities' of Consciousness and Being belong to the Self alone

and never to the Not-Self". If this is accepted and since Adhyasa is

something that is cognized and existing in our awareness (because we

are asking the question "Whence Adhyasa?") like the chithathmika

universe, then why did Shankara have to reject Gaudapada's position

that Brahman does the superimposing (Thought (a) of Douglas Fox). If

the `qualities' could be accepted as belonging to Consciousness,

then "adhyasa" could also be included under the scope of `qualities".

Brahman can thus be the "whence" of adhyasa and still be considered

as not becoming active and changeable.

 

I would love to have your views.

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

 

 

advaitin, "atmachaitanya108" <stadri@a...> wrote:

> Dear K Kathirasan NCS,

>

> If you really take the position that Mula Avidya (Root Ignorance-

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namaste.

 

I am sorry for my late entry into this discussion again.

I tend to agree slightly with shri Madathil Nair's first

post in the recent rejuvenation of the thread. While shri

Atmachaitanyaji's posts are very lucid expositions, they

are overpowering against mUla-avidyA. I do not think anyone

here has argued *for* mUla-avidyA. The untenability of

mUla-avidyA (here I understand mUla-avidyA as that having

its own independent existence parallel to Atman) is obvious.

The bogey of mUla-avidyA is brought into the discussion by

shri Atmachaitanyaji himself and is flogged to death by

shri Atmachaitanyaji himself. Shri Atmachaitanyaji's

presentation on adhyAsabhAShya can stand tall by itself

without condemning the straw-man of mUla-avidyA. Yet, the

discussions on 'whence adhyAsa?' are very useful in re-visiting

shri shankara's points on this matter.

 

In this context, I request a few clarifications.

 

On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, sophia & ira schepetin wrote:

> [...]

>

> All Indian thinkers who put forth the view that there is only one

> Absolute Reality have had to grapple with the question: If there is only

> the Absolute Reality, then how is it that the dualistic world of

> multiplicity makes its appearance?

 

Why do people say the *dualistic* world makes its appearance?

Is it not in our thinking whether it is dualistic or not? It

is our ignorance which makes the world *dualistic*. Is it not

the defect in our perception that makes it dualistic? Let us

look at fingers of the hand. We do not see any duality there.

If we keep extrapolating this, we can conclude that while the

world *appears* dualistic, it has for its basis only the

non-dual Consciousness. It only *appears* dualistic.

> [...]

> In order to understand the ‘Whence of Adhyasa’, at least according to

> Shankaracharya, the first important issue that must be appreciated is

> the distinction between the “Absolute

> point of view”(Paramarthika Drishti) and the “Worldly or empirical point

> of view” (Loukika-vyavharika Dristi). From the Absolute perspective,

> the perspective of truth, there was never anyone who had ignorance, no

> one had to get any sort of knowledge to remove that ignorance, and there

> never was a Guru who had to teach the meaning of the Upanishads to a

> seeker so that he could be released from his bondage caused by that

> ignorance. This is the final position of Advaita Vedanta, and not that

> in fact a really existing Ignorance that someone actually had was at

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> some particular point in time removed by the Shastra Pramana, and in so

> doing the seeker really became liberated.

 

I am wondering who in advaita has postulated a *really existing

ignorance* ?

 

May be we are fighting imagined enemies here.

> (It should be noted that if in

> fact this were the case then liberation would be an event in time, and

> thus it would have a beginning and would therefore necessarily have an

> end. It could not be eternal.)

>From the paramArtha, there is no beginning or end for moksha.

Moksha itself will not have a meaning, just like ignorance

does not have a meaning. Yet from the perspective of the ignorant

people around, there is a beginning time for moksha, when they see

that a person amongst themselves, with Knowledge, sees the jagat

as it is, Brahman. They (in the vyavahArika) perceive a beginning

time for moksha. That is a vyavahAric concept, which cannot be

denied in vyavahArika.

 

Further, I notice shri Atmachaitanyaji saying "If anything has

a beginning, it has to have an end....".

I will give two examples, both vyavahArika concepts which

contradict this. Ignorance: it has no beginning, it has an end.

Moksha: it has a beginning, but it has no end. I would like to

emphasize again: these are vyavahArika concepts which can be

defended. The paramArtha perspective of GauDapAda in the kArika:

"Adau anta ca yAn nAsti vartamAnepi tat tathA" [ that which is

not there at the beginning and which is not there at the end may

just as well be considered not there at the present] is the Truth.

 

> [...]

>

> Now, Dennis, we can begin to tackle the question ‘Whence Adhyasa.

> It is a question that can be interpreted as: ‘ O.K let us grant that

> Adyhasa is the mutual superimposition of the Self and Non-Self, and let

> us also grant that because of this Adhyasa all worldly life is

> proceeding, and not only that, let us also grant that due to Adhyasa all

> ‘spiritual life’ (Vaidika Vyvahara) is proceeding, such as the teachings

> concerning injunctions (Vidhis) and prohibitions (pratishedas), Karmas

> and meditations as well as the principle Upanishadic teaching concerning

> the knowledge of the Self, and how this relates to bondage and release

> (Bunda Moksha Vyvahara), but the question now is: What is the ‘cause’

> for this misconception itself? Why do we superimpose the Self and the

> Not-Self? What is the reason for this Adhyasa to come about in the first

> place?

>

> [...]

 

 

"What is the cause for adhyAsa?" is, in my view, an absurd question

(with all respect to shri Dennis). This question does not have an

answer. The intellect, which asks this question is itself a product

of adhyAsa, hence cannot grasp any answer to it (even if there is

an answer). The intellect and the question get melted away as what

may be called an answer to this appears.

 

Finally, in his most recent post, shri Atmachaitanyaji seems to

be putting a farewell post. I hope he will continue to post on

the list on these topics which are dearest to all. His posts

are very lucid expositions.

 

> Om Tat Sat

> Atmachaitanya

>

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

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Dear K Kathirasan,

 

You ask: "Now that I know that I am the absolute Brahman, why is it

that I still have the fear of Duality? Shastra says that the one who

knows this crosses over fear. But why is it that despite discussions,

and being convinced 'intellectually', that Brahman alone IS, why do I

still feel that I am 'ignorant', a 'seeker', a 'doer' etc…. Or what

can I do to overcome this?"

 

AHHH…the $64,000 question? A question that all serious students of

Advaita have no doubt repeatedly asked themselves, of course, myself

included. How is it that I could have studied Vedanta so long, be

absolutely convinced of the veracity of it assertions, (and not

merely because some Guru proclaimed them, but because I had verified

the validity of these teachings in my own experience. I was able to

understand the difference between the Witness and the Witnessed, not

only intellectually and indirectly, but experientially and directly. I

was able to see that I am the Witness of the three states and that

they, and the dualistic dealings that go on within them, don't affect

me in the least. I was able to corroborate that I am in fact the

knower of the mind, and in me there never was any fear and sorrow,

these were just properties of the mind); and nevertheless, I continue

to see Duality. A serious defect, because it is the one who sees

duality that fears it, or tries to enjoy it, or escape it. or attempts

to be effortless in it, or resolves to be indifferent to it, and

continues on with his worldly life. Why hasn't it come to an end, at

least the fear and sorrow and confusion part of it? How is it that I'm

not yet Liberated?

 

Now there are a few ways in which a sincere seeker of truth can

deal with this situation. He can conclude that the distinction between

the Witness and Witnessed must be false and abandon the whole

Vedantic enterprise and get on with his life. He can conclude that he

may not yet have the 'final' knowledge, and he should therefore

continue with his endless discussions, study, try to find some more

powerful reasoning, get his intellectual doubts resolved, even though

new doubts keep popping up. Or decide that ultimately the Vedantic

'Knowledge' that arises from the study and listening to the Teachings

is only after all 'intellectual', and that he must do something, get

the Nirvikalpa Samadhi or some new type of "mystical' experience, the

final "Sakshatkara", to get the real, final and Experiential knowledge

of the self, until then he will continue to suffer. Or he may conclude

(and this perhaps is the most ruinous option) that he is in fact a

Jnani, he is perfectly convinced that Duality is false, and that even

though Duality is still appearing, due to his conviction that it is

false and all that exists is the Self alone, he is unaffected. It has

been sublated, falsified in his mind, but nevertheless, he still feels

that he has Pratibundikas, obstacles to that knowledge; ether in the

form of old vasanas, or that he has to undergo, (even though he

'knows' its only apparent), his remaining Prabdha Karma, till he gets

Videha mukti, or that a trace of Ignorance still remains so he can

carry out his empirical life.

 

It was a view similar to the last option mentioned above that I

myself adopted over the course of 25 years of Vedantic study. A view

in which the basic difference between a Jnani, a wiseman, and an

Ajnani, an ignorant man, was that while they both were seeing the same

"duality' the Ignorant man takes it for real. But the wise man, the

Jnani, was the one who 'knows', who has the unshakable conviction

based on his own experience, that the Duality that he is seeing is

false. A view which I now take to be extremely misguided, and which a

compassionate teacher took months to disabuse me of, gently kicking

me off the throne of 'Jnanidom'. A view which in fact is like a noose

around the seekers throat, keeping him fully bound to his Knowership,

and the arrogance of thinking himself a Jnani. The thinking goes like

this: Before I began my study of Vedanta I didn't know Brahman, now

that I have studied Vedanta, under the guidance of a qualified

teacher, I do 'know' Brahman, (granting the fact that this knowledge

was based on my own direct experience), but I continue to see the

world and have the conviction it is false and that only Brahman

exists. Now ask yourself, (although it is admittedly quite comforting

to think that you are a 'Knower of the Self'), who is it that 'knows'

Brahman, and who is it that now sees the world of duality and who is

it that now has the conviction that it is false? And who is the one

bewailing the fact that although he knows only Brahman exists, he

still fears Duality? Could it be Atman, your Self? Does Atman see

anything, have convictions about anything or fear anything? It is that

same Ego, who is in exactly the same situation that it was in before

his study of Vedanta. He is still a knower (albeit a "Knower of

Brahman"), still a seer (of duality), still one who has convictions

about the world or about Brahman. Its just that now the conviction is

that Duality is false, unlike before studying Vedanta and having the

conviction that it was real. The Ego is still in full operation. He

continues to suffer, to have Raga And Dvesha, Shoka and Moha ( likes

and dislikes, sorrow and confusion). He still feels in his heart of

hearts, that he is still ignorant or at least he has a trace of

ignorance, that he is a doer, regardless of his convictions, or of his

repeating of this 'knowledge' to try to make it stronger.

 

It is the Ego who wants enlightenment, who wants to be liberated, who

thinks that it is bound, or has attained the 'Knowledge of the Self'.

But the Ego is false, unreal; It comes and goes with the States. It is

the outcome of a misconception, it can never be liberated. It never

really existed, it could never be bound, nor could it ever get free.

It is actually Atman who appears as though bound, due to ignorance,

not the Ego. It is the Atman who seems to be liberated, due to the

removal of ignorance, not the Ego. This subtle distinction should be

taken note of. It is not the Ego who is Bound because of ignorance,

nor is it the Ego who will be Freed upon the removal of that

ignorance. It is the Self who, because of ignorance, appears as if

bound and it is the Self that appears as if freed due to the removal

of Ignorance. We all want our Egos to be free! But it is only Atman

who is free. Atmans true nature (Svarupa), is eternally liberated

(Nitya Muktah) unaffected by the appearance or disappearance of

ignorance itself. This ego will always be a Samsari, as long as he

appears. He is the product of a misconception, born of ignorance and

therefore could never be Liberated, Muktah, never free from doubts,

never free from seeing duality, from having fear and sorrow. Never

free from being a 'knower', 'doer', 'enjoyer', from being a sadhaka,

from being a "Jnananishta". And certainly it will never be a Jnani ,

for a Jnani, in Vedanta, is the Atman. There is only ONE Jnani, not

many! And Atman is of a nature totally opposed to the Ego. Atman is

always free from all fears and sorrows, from searching and doubts,

from being tortured by the question, 'When will I become truly

Liberated'?.

 

In Vedanta, Knowing means Being. It doesn't mean that you

retain your Pramatrutva, Knowership, and that Brahman is now an object

of your knowledge, It certainly does not mean that you now have an

"Akhanda Akara Vritti" A special type of mental modification which

has allowed you to cognize Brahman. TO KNOW BRAHMAN IS TO BE BRAHMAN

in Vedanta. That is Vedantic knowledge. That is the Final Knowledge.

That is when all Knowership, doership, enjoyership ceases. Because it

is only when you are Brahman, not by merely 'knowing' it, but by Being

it, that all suffering ends, that Samsara is uprooted root and branch.

"Brahamvid Brahma BhavatiThe knower of Brahman is Brahman" What is

the meaning of the verse? Should we take it as some type of

exaggeration or praise? Are we to take it figuratively? Or is it to be

taken literally, as a statement of an eternal Truth, and if so, what

are the real implications of that? "Yatra tu Dvaivta iva…. " Where

there is Duality as it were, then ones sees another, one hears

another, one 'knows' another. But when, to this knower of the Self,

all has be come the Self alone, then what will he see and with what?

What will he Hear and with what? What will he 'know' and with what?"

Here we have a Sruti text which denies all vyavahara, all empirical

life to the wise man, to the Jnani. He has no convictions about

Duality, 'intellectual' or otherwise He doesn't even see Duality, so

that he could have any convictions about it. Like a man asleep. He is

the Self, Eternally liberated. That is the meaning of Tat Tvam Asi.

You are That, not that you are the 'knower of That'. That is the

meaning of Liberation. That is the meaning of 'He crosses over

sorrow', in the Sruti. (Not that the Ego got liberated at some point.)

The one who complains, even to himself, 'How is it that I have 'known'

the Self, but I still have problems', is NOT a 'knower' of the Self.

He is the one with a misconception, still under the spell of Adhyasa.

 

I hope this sheds some light on the common, chronic, and hard to

cure Vedantic ailment: 'Why is it that I know the Self, yet I'm still

a Sukhi, Duhki Samasri ?'.

 

Hari Om

Atmachaitanya

 

P.S. Sri Krishna.Ghadiyaram asked: "Is it your position that Avidya

is adhyasa, Avidya is not Maya?" That is exactly correct. It is due

to Avidya that Maya is appearing. Avidya is the 'cause', 'Maya' ( the

world of names and forms) is the effect. According to Shankara they

are different. Because we don't know the Self, we are misconceiving it

as the world. That external and internal 'world' in its totality is

refered to as Maya It was the Post Shankara Mula Avidya Vadins who

identified them as one Avidya/Maya and portrayed it as a 'primordial

Power' that inhered in the Absolute and accounted for the appearance

of the world. This was the beginning of the end for Shankaras'

Vedanta.

 

>

> I have one more question for you, that is if you don't mind. Now

that I know

> that I am the absolute Brahman why is it that I still have the fear

of

> duality? Shastra declares that 'the one who knows this Truth crosses

fear'.

> But why is it that despite discussing and being convinced

'intellectually'

> (is this the right word? nevermind) that Brahman alone IS, why do I

still

> feel that I am 'ignorant', 'a seeker', 'a doer' etc.....Or what can

I do to

> overcome this? Pls advise.

>

>

> >

> > atmachaitanya108 [sMTP:stadri@a...]

> > Thursday, March 28, 2002 3:06 PM

> > advaitin

> > Re: Whence Adhyasa

> >

>

> >

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In a message dated 3/29/02 2:12:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,

stadri writes:

 

> Dear K Kathirasan,

>

> You ask: "Now that I know that I am the absolute Brahman, why is it

> that I still have the fear of Duality? Shastra says that the one who

> knows this crosses over fear. But why is it that despite discussions,

> and being convinced 'intellectually', that Brahman alone IS, why do I

> still feel that I am 'ignorant', a 'seeker', a 'doer' etc…. Or what

> can I do to overcome this?"

>

> AHHH…the $64,000 question? A question that all serious students of

> Advaita have no doubt repeatedly asked themselves, of course, myself

> included. How is it that I could have studied Vedanta so long, be

> absolutely convinced of the veracity of it assertions, (and not

> merely because some Guru proclaimed them, but because I had verified

> the validity of these teachings in my own experience. I was able to

> understand the difference between the Witness and the Witnessed, not

> only intellectually and indirectly, but experientially and directly. I

> was able to see that I am the Witness of the three states and that

> they, and the dualistic dealings that go on within them, don't affect

> me in the least. I was able to corroborate that I am in fact the

> knower of the mind, and in me there never was any fear and sorrow,

> these were just properties of the mind); and nevertheless, I continue

> to see Duality. A serious defect, because it is the one who sees

> duality that fears it, or tries to enjoy it, or escape it. or attempts

> to be effortless in it, or resolves to be indifferent to it, and

> continues on with his worldly life. Why hasn't it come to an end, at

> least the fear and sorrow and confusion part of it? How is it that I'm

> not yet Liberated?

 

So long as we are in a body, Duality stays, but when the Duality is

simultaneously immersed in a sea of real samadhi stuff, the fear aspect goes

to dissolution. The joy aspect of Duality emerges ever more strongly. The

idea of having 'witnessed' may be just that: the beautiful long term

intellectually constructed idea of 'witnessing', as opposed to 'real

witnessing', which is an entirely new and amazing experience as it is

accompanied with a great deal more of that samadhi stuff.

 

One night I had quite a dream, something that took days and weeks for me to

untangle. Though I often dream, watching myself doing this or that in a

dream, usually a continuation of waking state things, this particular night

was more baffling. I was off on the side line, watching myself, the Seer,

who was watching myself doing this or that. The witness was three layers

deep, but I couldn't really say it was the witness because it was consciously

creating some rules also, that it was simultaneously aware of the waking

state, and to prove it, would wake the body upon command, which it did! I

woke up apparently with the same identification as the 3rd level sideline

witness. The 2nd level witness (still myself) was aware of and knew

everything that the 1st level 'myself' was actually doing in the dream, but

was not aware of the 3rd level witness which passed directly to waking state

upon waking. So intellectually, we surely can create all sorts of

fascinating new maya positions for ourselves. It was the flowing samadhi

stuff at the 3rd level which made the whole thing rather enjoyable, certainly

not fearful.

 

> Now there are a few ways in which a sincere seeker of truth can

> deal with this situation. He can conclude that the distinction between

> the Witness and Witnessed must be false and abandon the whole

> Vedantic enterprise and get on with his life. He can conclude that he

> may not yet have the 'final' knowledge, and he should therefore

> continue with his endless discussions, study, try to find some more

> powerful reasoning, get his intellectual doubts resolved, even though

> new doubts keep popping up. Or decide that ultimately the Vedantic

> 'Knowledge' that arises from the study and listening to the Teachings

> is only after all 'intellectual', and that he must do something, get

> the Nirvikalpa Samadhi or some new type of "mystical' experience, the

> final "Sakshatkara", to get the real, final and Experiential knowledge

> of the self, until then he will continue to suffer. Or he may conclude

> (and this perhaps is the most ruinous option) that he is in fact a

> Jnani, he is perfectly convinced that Duality is false, and that even

> though Duality is still appearing, due to his conviction that it is

> false and all that exists is the Self alone, he is unaffected. It has

> been sublated, falsified in his mind, but nevertheless, he still feels

> that he has Pratibundikas, obstacles to that knowledge; ether in the

> form of old vasanas, or that he has to undergo, (even though he

> 'knows' its only apparent), his remaining Prabdha Karma, till he gets

> Videha mukti, or that a trace of Ignorance still remains so he can

> carry out his empirical life.

>

 

Sir, this supreme articulated Vedanta that you masterfully evolve is

certainly not the 'final' knowledge. "Seek first the kingdom of heaven and

all . . ." A simple initiation will provide an experience that will relieve

virtually all of these problems and then simultaneously shed a new

interpretation of all this heavy intellectualized Vedanta. Thoughts are

thoughts are thoughts. One stays in thoughts with thoughts, and the whole

thing is layer upon layer of ever more intricate maya sheaths.

 

 

> It was a view similar to the last option mentioned above that I

> myself adopted over the course of 25 years of Vedantic study. A view

> in which the basic difference between a Jnani, a wiseman, and an

> Ajnani, an ignorant man, was that while they both were seeing the same

> "duality' the Ignorant man takes it for real. But the wise man, the

> Jnani, was the one who 'knows', who has the unshakable conviction

> based on his own experience, that the Duality that he is seeing is

> false. A view which I now take to be extremely misguided, and which a

> compassionate teacher took months to disabuse me of, gently kicking

> me off the throne of 'Jnanidom'. A view which in fact is like a noose

> around the seekers throat, keeping him fully bound to his Knowership,

> and the arrogance of thinking himself a Jnani. The thinking goes like

> this: Before I began my study of Vedanta I didn't know Brahman, now

> that I have studied Vedanta, under the guidance of a qualified

> teacher, I do 'know' Brahman, (granting the fact that this knowledge

> was based on my own direct experience), but I continue to see the

> world and have the conviction it is false and that only Brahman

> exists. Now ask yourself, (although it is admittedly quite comforting

> to think that you are a 'Knower of the Self'), who is it that 'knows'

> Brahman, and who is it that now sees the world of duality and who is

> it that now has the conviction that it is false? And who is the one

> bewailing the fact that although he knows only Brahman exists, he

> still fears Duality? Could it be Atman, your Self? Does Atman see

> anything, have convictions about anything or fear anything? It is that

> same Ego, who is in exactly the same situation that it was in before

> his study of Vedanta. He is still a knower (albeit a "Knower of

> Brahman"), still a seer (of duality), still one who has convictions

> about the world or about Brahman. Its just that now the conviction is

> that Duality is false, unlike before studying Vedanta and having the

> conviction that it was real. The Ego is still in full operation. He

> continues to suffer, to have Raga And Dvesha, Shoka and Moha ( likes

> and dislikes, sorrow and confusion). He still feels in his heart of

> hearts, that he is still ignorant or at least he has a trace of

> ignorance, that he is a doer, regardless of his convictions, or of his

> repeating of this 'knowledge' to try to make it stronger.

>

 

Jnana is but one aspect of purusa. One sure way to kill the flow of samadhi,

whatever amount there may have been to start, is to put intent and action to

the scrutiny of the values of academia. Do not misinterpret, the advaita

logic is great, but it cannot stand by itself. Sir, please read the

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi postings put on board a short while ago. That is not

fiction either. The problem can be unfolded by way of the information

contained within.

> It is the Ego who wants enlightenment, who wants to be liberated, who

> thinks that it is bound, or has attained the 'Knowledge of the Self'.

> But the Ego is false, unreal; It comes and goes with the States. It is

> the outcome of a misconception, it can never be liberated. It never

> really existed, it could never be bound, nor could it ever get free.

> It is actually Atman who appears as though bound, due to ignorance,

> not the Ego. It is the Atman who seems to be liberated, due to the

> removal of ignorance, not the Ego. This subtle distinction should be

> taken note of. It is not the Ego who is Bound because of ignorance,

> nor is it the Ego who will be Freed upon the removal of that

> ignorance. It is the Self who, because of ignorance, appears as if

> bound and it is the Self that appears as if freed due to the removal

> of Ignorance. We all want our Egos to be free! But it is only Atman

> who is free. Atmans true nature (Svarupa), is eternally liberated

> (Nitya Muktah) unaffected by the appearance or disappearance of

> ignorance itself. This ego will always be a Samsari, as long as he

> appears. He is the product of a misconception, born of ignorance and

> therefore could never be Liberated, Muktah, never free from doubts,

> never free from seeing duality, from having fear and sorrow. Never

> free from being a 'knower', 'doer', 'enjoyer', from being a sadhaka,

> from being a "Jnananishta". And certainly it will never be a Jnani ,

> for a Jnani, in Vedanta, is the Atman. There is only ONE Jnani, not

> many! And Atman is of a nature totally opposed to the Ego. Atman is

> always free from all fears and sorrows, from searching and doubts,

> from being tortured by the question, 'When will I become truly

> Liberated'?.

>

 

Freedom abounds proportional to the flow of that soma samadhi stuff. There

is a simple initiation process that opens awareness to more of it. Most

ignore such a message, sometimes politely, sometimes not politely, it doesn't

matter, preferring to perpetuate the suffering that is well known and

personally owned.

 

> In Vedanta, Knowing means Being. It doesn't mean that you

> retain your Pramatrutva, Knowership, and that Brahman is now an object

> of your knowledge, It certainly does not mean that you now have an

> "Akhanda Akara Vritti" A special type of mental modification which

> has allowed you to cognize Brahman. TO KNOW BRAHMAN IS TO BE BRAHMAN

> in Vedanta. That is Vedantic knowledge. That is the Final Knowledge.

> That is when all Knowership, doership, enjoyership ceases. Because it

> is only when you are Brahman, not by merely 'knowing' it, but by Being

> it, that all suffering ends, that Samsara is uprooted root and branch.

> "Brahamvid Brahma BhavatiThe knower of Brahman is Brahman" What is

> the meaning of the verse? Should we take it as some type of

> exaggeration or praise? Are we to take it figuratively? Or is it to be

> taken literally, as a statement of an eternal Truth, and if so, what

> are the real implications of that? "Yatra tu Dvaivta iva…. " Where

> there is Duality as it were, then ones sees another, one hears

> another, one 'knows' another. But when, to this knower of the Self,

> all has be come the Self alone, then what will he see and with what?

> What will he Hear and with what? What will he 'know' and with what?"

> Here we have a Sruti text which denies all vyavahara, all empirical

> life to the wise man, to the Jnani. He has no convictions about

> Duality, 'intellectual' or otherwise He doesn't even see Duality, so

> that he could have any convictions about it. Like a man asleep. He is

> the Self, Eternally liberated. That is the meaning of Tat Tvam Asi.

> You are That, not that you are the 'knower of That'. That is the

> meaning of Liberation. That is the meaning of 'He crosses over

> sorrow', in the Sruti. (Not that the Ego got liberated at some point.)

> The one who complains, even to himself, 'How is it that I have 'known'

> the Self, but I still have problems', is NOT a 'knower' of the Self.

> He is the one with a misconception, still under the spell of Adhyasa.

>

 

The spell of Adhyasa sticks around all the time while in a body, but the

values of joy of the 'real witness' becomes greater while the complaints over

avidya dissolve away.

> I hope this sheds some light on the common, chronic, and hard to

> cure Vedantic ailment: 'Why is it that I know the Self, yet I'm still

> a Sukhi, Duhki Samasri ?'.

>

> Hari Om

> Atmachaitanya

>

There's knowing and knowing and knowing, all on different levels of subtlety.

The mental thought routines are a level more subtle than the sensory input

information, and the feelings are yet another level more subtle (and

therefore the controller) than the thinking. Thoughts move to put logical

structure to feelings. Feelings (a more subtle tattva) control the

motivational direction of thoughts. Where does a thought come from? Why

this thought and not another thought? Is it possible to experience subtler

and subtler levels of a thought? Yes, it is. Is it possible to go to the

subtlest level of thought? Yes, it is. Is it possible to transcend this

subtlest level of thought altogether? Yes, it is. What is left? The

samadhi sea of transcendence, a joyful flow of life that is never forgotten.

But one cannot get their alone by the seat of his pants, pulling oneself up

by his own intellectual bootstraps. There needs to be an external technique.

So simple a technique, yet it needs be transferred.

 

jai guru dev,

 

Edmond

 

 

 

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