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Pranams,

Usually when it comes to discussing hindu bielefs

often orthodox christans say that it has no sense of

social justice. They say that theory of karma make

people fatalistic about their lifes.

Whatever happens to me is my karma and there is no

point of counteracting it. For instance lately I have

heard a story from a christan nun. She was serving

people in hospital and one day came to her a man from

lower caste ( sudra, or loer) suffering from stomach

ache. She find out that he was working for a rich

landlord but landlord wasn’t paying him for his job.

In effect he was starving and suffering from

deasise.The nun visted landlord to speak with him

about the matter. She asked why he wasn’t paying the

man for his job and mentioned that a man was about to

die. The landlord replied: “It is his karma, and you

have done a wrong thing by helping him. If he would

have died he surely would have attained higher caste

in his next birth as a effect of his service to me.”

The things has taken place in India in mid sixties.

She went on saying, it was on a radio, that vedas

have no teachings of love. Only Christe commanded “To

love your neighbour as yourself” or “Whatever you have

done to this lowest among yourselfs you have done it

to me”. Therfore, she concluded, christian faith

represents much higher teachings than any hindu sect.

Could you comment on this. Is it really true? Are

there commandments in Vedas similiar to christan?

With best wishes,

Garga Rsi das

 

 

 

 

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karma theory is neither fatalism nor predeterminism. if it is not understood

properly , then it becomes a problem. for that matter any system of thought,

if not understood properly, will result in major error. karma theory means

freedom which is given by God and is dependent on God. how can freedom be

dependent?. It is like a cow tied to a pillar with a very long rope. the cow

has freedom to move around within the radius equal to or less than the

length of the rope, but constrained when it wants to go beyond the radius.

Like that a soul has freedom to move about but restricted in certain ways.

One should help anyone irrespective of caste or creed. this is the essence

of hindu thought. if one wants to quote from anecdotes related to various

type of people like landlords or nurses etc. any thing can be said about any

religion or faith. One has to dig deep into the scriptures of that system to

evaluate the true view of that system and not stories regarding people's

views, unless it is from the upabrmhanas like Ramayana etc..

 

hope this helps.

 

regards,

 

Krishna

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Hari Hari

 

Pranams,

 

In the first place, let me first tell that, I do not

want to compare any religion with another. One should

never compare religions, as it is this comparion which

brings all sorts of problems amongst people. Each

Religion is great for its follower, as is his / her

Mother.

 

Following is one of the most important things about

Vedic Religion :

 

"Vedas have clearly mentioned, never to preach this

Religion with an attempt to influcence and get more

and more people into the fold (But, I do not know

where ?). Vedas tell us just to practice, if we

believe that. Then Vedas say that, with we

practicising our life the way we are guided by Vedas,

if any other Person truly and genuinely gets

interested in our way of leading life, and asks for

details, then only, after checking with his

truthfulness in his interest, one following the Vedic

Religion is supposed to talk about Vedic Religion,

OTHERWISE NOT"

 

Then is about the story you have mentioned :

 

"In case, the story is true, it is completely and

thoroughly Unethical and Un-Vedic way of living on the

part of the Land lord. I do not want to judge the

authenticity of the story."

 

Then about Karma :

 

"This is something which involves very thorough

understanding. This is one main aspect dealth with in

Shree Bhagavad Geetaa by Shree Krishna. The way

'Karma' is used in the story that you have mentioned,

is totally illogical and irrational (i.e. the way Land

Lord has used the word Karma). If you have access,

please read commentaries on Karma Yoga so that your

doubts would get clarified"

 

Then about ShreemaNnaaraayana, Love and Vedic Religion

:

 

"There are many ways to reach Hari. The main and the

easiest I feel is the Prema Bhakti. It is this Prema

Bhakti that was flowing in abundance between Gopis and

Shree Krishna (as Gopi Bhavam). Shree Krishnaavataara

is such a Gem of the Avataaraas, which guides everyone

in the most suitable way for oneself towards him. All

these have their roots in Vedas. If one is perfectly

directed towards ShreemaNaaraayana, one just cannot

find any bad human qualities in him / her (like

hatredness, exploitation, anger, selfishness etc. etc.

which the story you have mentioned is indicating)"

 

The final thing :

 

"In every place, we find people who mis-use everything

including Religion to their own very mean, cheap and

selfish needs. It is true of Vedic Religion also. They

are the people who bring disrepute to Religions and

cover the Truth with False things. But this will be

very temporary, Truth always wins"

 

Respected Bhaagavathaas of the list may pardon me for

any of the mistakes in this opinion of mine.

 

Hari Hari

 

 

--- greg michel <gregokrasz wrote:

> Pranams,

> Usually when it comes to discussing hindu bielefs

> often orthodox christans say that it has no sense of

> social justice. They say that theory of karma make

> people fatalistic about their lifes.

> Whatever happens to me is my karma and there is no

> point of counteracting it. For instance lately I

> have

> heard a story from a christan nun. She was serving

> people in hospital and one day came to her a man

> from

> lower caste ( sudra, or loer) suffering from stomach

> ache. She find out that he was working for a rich

> landlord but landlord wasn’t paying him for his job.

> In effect he was starving and suffering from

> deasise.The nun visted landlord to speak with him

> about the matter. She asked why he wasn’t paying the

> man for his job and mentioned that a man was about

> to

> die. The landlord replied: “It is his karma, and you

> have done a wrong thing by helping him. If he would

> have died he surely would have attained higher

> caste

> in his next birth as a effect of his service to me.”

> The things has taken place in India in mid sixties.

> She went on saying, it was on a radio, that vedas

> have no teachings of love. Only Christe commanded

> “To

> love your neighbour as yourself” or “Whatever you

> have

> done to this lowest among yourselfs you have done it

> to me”. Therfore, she concluded, christian faith

> represents much higher teachings than any hindu

> sect.

> Could you comment on this. Is it really true? Are

> there commandments in Vedas similiar to christan?

> With best wishes,

> Garga Rsi das

 

 

 

 

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Dear Greg,

 

In India it is quite common to attribute life's innumerable challenges to

karmA. Generally, it serves to prod a worried-mind to get on with life and

do one's duty. People justify their actions and inactions based on karmA -

so it works both ways. karmA theory is not fatalistic. VEdic teachings cover

the whole gamut of existence from the perspective of the inner soul.

 

Among other things, the teachings advise a social order whereby everyone

participates and performs a key role in ensuring the welfare of the society.

The incident you highlighted is a perfect example of exploitation on the

basis of religion - an unscrupulous landlord exploiting a hapless peasant on

one side, and on the other, a religious worker exploiting the situation to

proselytize - the victim obviously stays a victim, physically, mentally and

spiritually.

 

"dharmayEva hathO hanthi: dharmO raksati raksita:" - dharmA destroys its

destroyer: dharma protects its protector.

 

ahimsA satyamakrodhastyAgah : sAntirapaisunam |

dayAbhutEsualolupatvam mArdavaim hriracApalam || - srI bhagavad gItA chapter

16: verse 2

 

"Non-injury, truth, freedom from anger, renunciation, tranquility,

non-slandering others, compassion to all beings, freedom from desire,

gentleness, sense of shame, freedom from fickleness" - are all divine

qualities.

 

Respectfully,

Sriram

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Even if the story of the nun is true, the rich man does not represent vedic

knowledge. As per vedid injunction, we are not supposed to judge others by their

past karma.

Let me tell you an anecdote that one Christian missionary told me. He had given

up Christianity and taken up Vaishnavism. As an ex-Christian, his old god

brothers had invited him to their church and started telling him a similar story

of love and told him that there is no sense of love outside of Christianity. My

friend walked with them to their kitchen and started talking about the delicious

cuisines that the arch bishop loves- these were made of beef, meat and chicken.

My friend pointed out that the arch bishop is lacking in love for animals and

other poor human beings. For mere satisfaction of mortal body - his tongue -

the arch bishop is forcing his followers to kill innocent animals. He added

statistics to show how eating non-vegetarian food deprives millions of poor

people their simple food. There was nothing but empty assertion that Chritianity

allows non-vegetarianism.

Most of the missionaries do social service to attract followers like Teresa for

example. She used to spend frugally on her patients who get victimized by her

untrained nurses inspite of the fact she gets millions from drug and arms

dealers as donation. Most of the Christian missionaries run schools and

hospitals for a living, creating a following and almost always using tax payers

money. There are some genuine social service minded Christian missionaries. This

is purely their personal merit and happens inspite of the influence of modern

day Christianity.

Before getting into Vedic view, let me quicly dwell on modern Day Christianity.

Most of the teachings of Jesus were lost because the Church burnt whatever was

not comfortable to them. As a result of this folly, with the modern day bible we

can prove that Jesus never existed! My brother is writing a book for the benefit

of the modern day chrsitians. You may request him to pass some of the

manuscripts to you karthik_v. Ofcourse, I believe that Jesus existed

because there is reference to him. As per the original teachings, there is

karma, reincarnation and vegetarianism. Th latter day church leaders like the

Paul, the king Constantine and other Popes did a poor job of destroying the work

of jesus. So we can prove that Christianity supports karma theory with the help

of of Bible, other contemporary literature and living Christian traditions. For

details, contact my brother.

Having said that the orignal Christianity is a diluted version of sanatana

dharma taught by our acharyas like Ramanujacharya, and it contains essential

vedic teachings like karma, let me share my little understanding of the concept

of love in Vedas. Due to my own ignorance and hard heart that is devoid of

bhakti to Sriman Narayana, I may be able to do only a poor job. But I am sure

that by the causeless love of the Lord, you will get a start.

We are supposed to give away in charity to other humans for which we have so

many classifications of dhana like anna dhana, vidya dhana etc. We are also

supposed to perform bhoota yajna. When we draw kolam or rangoli (paintings with

rice flour) infront of the Lord, the ants are supposed to eat them. We offer

food to crows and other birds in the morning before we even eat our own food.

And we are supposed to feed dogs. Even today, you can go to Indian villages and

see our ladies calling out to dogs with food in hand saying "tho tho". But our

sense of loving sacrifice culminated in loving sacrifice of the results of all

our activities to Narayana. Please note that our love is based on spiritual

equality of all beings and is based on the love of God Himself.

And if you dont accept the concept of karma, your modern day Christians have a

big problem. Why is the Lord cruel to some of His own creations ? While we

recognize that karma exists, we have temporary means of burning karma away like

prayaschittam and permanent upaayam namely surrender un to the Lord.

 

greg michel <gregokrasz wrote: Pranams,

Usually when it comes to discussing hindu bielefs

often orthodox christans say that it has no sense of

social justice. They say that theory of karma make

people fatalistic about their lifes.

Whatever happens to me is my karma and there is no

point of counteracting it. For instance lately I have

heard a story from a christan nun. She was serving

people in hospital and one day came to her a man from

lower caste ( sudra, or loer) suffering from stomach

ache. She find out that he was working for a rich

landlord but landlord wasn't paying him for his job.

In effect he was starving and suffering from

deasise.The nun visted landlord to speak with him

about the matter. She asked why he wasn't paying the

man for his job and mentioned that a man was about to

die. The landlord replied: "It is his karma, and you

have done a wrong thing by helping him. If he would

have died he surely would have attained higher caste

in his next birth as a effect of his service to me."

The things has taken place in India in mid sixties.

She went on saying, it was on a radio, that vedas

have no teachings of love. Only Christe commanded "To

love your neighbour as yourself" or "Whatever you have

done to this lowest among yourselfs you have done it

to me". Therfore, she concluded, christian faith

represents much higher teachings than any hindu sect.

Could you comment on this. Is it really true? Are

there commandments in Vedas similiar to christan?

With best wishes,

Garga Rsi das

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bhakti-list, "Krishna Kashyap" <kkalale1@s...> wrote:

>karma theory means freedom which is given by God and is dependent on

>God. how can freedom be dependent?. It is like a cow tied to a

>pillar with a very long rope. the cow has freedom to move around

>within the radius equal to or less than the length of the rope, but

>constrained when it wants to go beyond the radius. Like that a soul

>has freedom to move about but restricted in certain ways.

 

the tied-cow explanation is due to sri ramakrishna. but if one were

to believe that the world is governed by laws of causation (as the

original poster had supposed to be the theory of karma), one has to

rule out any external agency - including god - having the ability to

govern our fate. consequently, this was the impetus that buddhism and

jainism needed to bring the concept of atheism, fatalism and the non-

existence of the hindu trinity. in my humble opinion, this is a very

wrong way of looking at the theory of karma.

 

karma consists of three parts - one accounting for our initial state

(which is irrevocable - which is commonly referred to as "fate"),

another accounting for our past (which can be eradicated by prayers),

and the last part accounting for our future actions (which is

completely in our hands and is in no way related to "fate"). this

last part of karma is the exercise of our free will and proves that

it is god and not "fate" that is omni-potent.

 

regards,

prabhu.

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i believe you consider matthew 22:36-40 (KJV) as being the principal

tenets of christianity -

 

22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all

thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour

as thyself.

22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

i quote the bhagavad gita 12.13-14 (swami prabhupada's translation) -

 

"One who is not envious but is a kind friend to all living entities,

who does not think himself a proprietor and is free from false ego,

who is equal in both happiness and distress, who is tolerant, always

satisfied, self-controlled, and engaged in devotional service with

determination, his mind and intelligence fixed on Me -- such a

devotee of Mine is very dear to Me."

 

i can't see any difference between the gospel according to matthew

22:36-40 and the bhagavad gita 12.13-14. in fact, the gita seems to

go further and directs man to love *all* living beings - not only

one's neighbours, parents etc.

 

this is regarding the underlying theories of christianity and

hinduism. translating theory to practice is a different matter

entirely.

 

regards,

prabhu.

 

bhakti-list, greg michel <gregokrasz> wrote:

> Pranams,

> Usually when it comes to discussing hindu bielefs

> often orthodox christans say that it has no sense of

> social justice. They say that theory of karma make

> people fatalistic about their lifes.

> Whatever happens to me is my karma and there is no

> point of counteracting it. For instance lately I have

> heard a story from a christan nun. She was serving

> people in hospital and one day came to her a man from

> lower caste ( sudra, or loer) suffering from stomach

> ache. She find out that he was working for a rich

> landlord but landlord wasn't paying him for his job.

> In effect he was starving and suffering from

> deasise.The nun visted landlord to speak with him

> about the matter. She asked why he wasn't paying the

> man for his job and mentioned that a man was about to

> die. The landlord replied: "It is his karma, and you

> have done a wrong thing by helping him. If he would

> have died he surely would have attained higher caste

> in his next birth as a effect of his service to me."

> The things has taken place in India in mid sixties.

> She went on saying, it was on a radio, that vedas

> have no teachings of love. Only Christe commanded "To

> love your neighbour as yourself" or "Whatever you have

> done to this lowest among yourselfs you have done it

> to me". Therfore, she concluded, christian faith

> represents much higher teachings than any hindu sect.

> Could you comment on this. Is it really true? Are

> there commandments in Vedas similiar to christan?

> With best wishes,

> Garga Rsi das

>

>

>

>

> Send FREE video emails in Mail!

> http://promo./videomail/

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srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

 

Dear Sri Garga Rsi das,

 

The incident you have described is just a story of a man, who has

completely not understood the vEdAs. Nowhere in your message it is said

that, the landlord is a vedic scholar. If he is a true scholar, that man

would not have committed such a daring misdeed and blame it on karma.

Probably he was one of the many "supression minded" landlords, of whom,

unfortunately, there are many in India (A bitter fact)

 

Also, trying to understand the vEdAs, from the misdeeds of one ignorant

landlord is completely absurd. As quoted by another member of this forum

aptly, an anectode is not the complete tradition. Also the anectodes are

not always traditionally correct. What I mean to say is that though this is

an anecdote quoted by you, this is traditionally incorrect.

 

May be true that the vEdAs doesn't talk much about the love and that they

only talk about knowledge and karma. But go through the outpourings of

AzhwArs, which is nothing but the essence of vEdAs. It is love, love and

love only. It is love on part of god. It is love on part of his devotees.

It is love on part of even the achEtana vasthus.

 

The Brahma SutrAs are nothing but the essence of the vEdAs and the

upanishads. Sri rAmAnuja wrote commentary for this, which is known as "Sri

BhAshyam". Nobody has been able to challenge the interpretations made by

Sri rAmAnuja on the Brahma Sutras. SwAmy azhagiya maNavALa perumAL nAyanAr,

in His magnum opus "AchArya Hrudayam" ( This is an unparalleled work, which

describes the entire thiruvAzimozhi with respect to the rahasyAs entrained

in it) says that " idhu koNdu Sri bhAshaykArar sUtrangaLai orunga viduvar".

It means, Sri rAmAnuja explains the brahma sUtras with the help of AzhwAr's

works.

 

Sri Vachana BhooshNam a very authentic rahasya grantha by Sri piLLai

lOkAchAryar ( Incidentally he is the elder brother of the above referred

Sri azhagiya maNavALa peruMaL nAyanAr) gives, vivid references to many

AzhwAr's works regarding the love that should shown to all kinds of human

creations. He even compares the vEdas to AzhwAr's works in this aspect.

 

In dEsika prabhandam, Swamy dEsikar brings this point out clearly by saying

that "seyya thamizh mAlaigaL nAm theLiya Odhi, theLiyAdha maRai nilangaL

theligindrOmE". Meanz, the AzhwAr's works, gives out the clear meaning of

the, otherwise difficult to understand portion of the vEdAs.

 

So please be informed that Sri Vaishnavism, the "parama vaidhika matham" is

full of love. All said and done, it should be remembered that due the wider

terminology used as "hinduism" many misinterpret the vEdas and find fault

with it. If only, people take time to understand the vEdas thorougly, then

this question will never arise.

 

Finally, if one wants to find fault with vEdas and Sri Vaishnavism or

Hinduism in turn, they can do it in anyway they want. But to appreciate

them, one should learn them from an AchAryA who is well versed in it.

 

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

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The cow analogy fits in karma theory. there is nothing wrong. God also fits

into karma theory. he is karmadhyaksha or the governor of the process of

rewards as per karma. the issues sri prabhu has indicated : are all in the

general karma theory : the sanchita, agaami, prarabhdha ( anabhyupagata

prarabhdha and abhupagatha prarabhdha) ... ie. accrued in past, future,

enforced already and that will be enforced in future which cannot be

changed. karma theory is quite exhaustive and probably needs a larger

email. when I get a chance I will write it. the tied cow analogy only

indicates the limit of our capacity.

 

god does have a role. He is just and does not favour any one who is

undeserving. However, due to the grace of God karmas can be reduced or

eliminated. the evoking of grace can happen due to meditation or vidya or

surrender. if karmas cannot be influenced or modified by God there is no

question of moksha or salvation.

 

regards,

 

Krishna

 

 

g_prabhu_srinivas [g_prabhu_srinivas]

Sunday, January 20, 2002 12:31 PM

bhakti-list

Re: social justice

 

 

bhakti-list, "Krishna Kashyap" <kkalale1@s...> wrote:

>karma theory means freedom which is given by God and is dependent on

>God. how can freedom be dependent?. It is like a cow tied to a

>pillar with a very long rope. the cow has freedom to move around

>within the radius equal to or less than the length of the rope, but

>constrained when it wants to go beyond the radius. Like that a soul

>has freedom to move about but restricted in certain ways.

 

the tied-cow explanation is due to sri ramakrishna. but if one were

to believe that the world is governed by laws of causation (as the

original poster had supposed to be the theory of karma), one has to

rule out any external agency - including god - having the ability to

govern our fate. consequently, this was the impetus that buddhism and

jainism needed to bring the concept of atheism, fatalism and the non-

existence of the hindu trinity. in my humble opinion, this is a very

wrong way of looking at the theory of karma.

 

karma consists of three parts - one accounting for our initial state

(which is irrevocable - which is commonly referred to as "fate"),

another accounting for our past (which can be eradicated by prayers),

and the last part accounting for our future actions (which is

completely in our hands and is in no way related to "fate"). this

last part of karma is the exercise of our free will and proves that

it is god and not "fate" that is omni-potent.

 

regards,

prabhu.

 

 

 

 

 

-----------------------------

- SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -

To Post a message, send it to: bhakti-list

Archives: http://ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/

 

 

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SrImatE nigamaanta mahaa-dESikaaya namaH

 

Theory of karma aside, interestingly SrIman-nigamaanta-dESika, as

if to reassure suffering devotees, prays to SrI-ranganaatha-paaduka

to have karmic ill-fate removed.

 

"parisara vinataanaam muurdhni dur-varNa-panktim

pariNamasi SaurE: paadukE tvam suvarNam" (SrI-paadukaa-sahasram)

 

-aDiyEn, Ramkumar

 

bhakti-list, "tg_ram" <tg_ram> wrote:

>

> Pardon my previous typo.

> I mean to ask - Does SrIman-nArAyaNa modify abhyupagata-praarabdha-

> karma ?

>

> Thanks

>

> -aDiyEn, Ramkumar

>

> > [...]

> > if karmas cannot be influenced or modified by God there is no

> > question of moksha or salvation.

> >

> > regards,

> >

> > Krishna

> >

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