Guest guest Report post Posted January 17, 2002 Pranams, Usually when it comes to discussing hindu bielefs often orthodox christans say that it has no sense of social justice. They say that theory of karma make people fatalistic about their lifes. Whatever happens to me is my karma and there is no point of counteracting it. For instance lately I have heard a story from a christan nun. She was serving people in hospital and one day came to her a man from lower caste ( sudra, or loer) suffering from stomach ache. She find out that he was working for a rich landlord but landlord wasn’t paying him for his job. In effect he was starving and suffering from deasise.The nun visted landlord to speak with him about the matter. She asked why he wasn’t paying the man for his job and mentioned that a man was about to die. The landlord replied: “It is his karma, and you have done a wrong thing by helping him. If he would have died he surely would have attained higher caste in his next birth as a effect of his service to me.” The things has taken place in India in mid sixties. She went on saying, it was on a radio, that vedas have no teachings of love. Only Christe commanded “To love your neighbour as yourself” or “Whatever you have done to this lowest among yourselfs you have done it to me”. Therfore, she concluded, christian faith represents much higher teachings than any hindu sect. Could you comment on this. Is it really true? Are there commandments in Vedas similiar to christan? With best wishes, Garga Rsi das Send FREE video emails in Mail! http://promo./videomail/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 19, 2002 karma theory is neither fatalism nor predeterminism. if it is not understood properly , then it becomes a problem. for that matter any system of thought, if not understood properly, will result in major error. karma theory means freedom which is given by God and is dependent on God. how can freedom be dependent?. It is like a cow tied to a pillar with a very long rope. the cow has freedom to move around within the radius equal to or less than the length of the rope, but constrained when it wants to go beyond the radius. Like that a soul has freedom to move about but restricted in certain ways. One should help anyone irrespective of caste or creed. this is the essence of hindu thought. if one wants to quote from anecdotes related to various type of people like landlords or nurses etc. any thing can be said about any religion or faith. One has to dig deep into the scriptures of that system to evaluate the true view of that system and not stories regarding people's views, unless it is from the upabrmhanas like Ramayana etc.. hope this helps. regards, Krishna Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 19, 2002 Hari Hari Pranams, In the first place, let me first tell that, I do not want to compare any religion with another. One should never compare religions, as it is this comparion which brings all sorts of problems amongst people. Each Religion is great for its follower, as is his / her Mother. Following is one of the most important things about Vedic Religion : "Vedas have clearly mentioned, never to preach this Religion with an attempt to influcence and get more and more people into the fold (But, I do not know where ?). Vedas tell us just to practice, if we believe that. Then Vedas say that, with we practicising our life the way we are guided by Vedas, if any other Person truly and genuinely gets interested in our way of leading life, and asks for details, then only, after checking with his truthfulness in his interest, one following the Vedic Religion is supposed to talk about Vedic Religion, OTHERWISE NOT" Then is about the story you have mentioned : "In case, the story is true, it is completely and thoroughly Unethical and Un-Vedic way of living on the part of the Land lord. I do not want to judge the authenticity of the story." Then about Karma : "This is something which involves very thorough understanding. This is one main aspect dealth with in Shree Bhagavad Geetaa by Shree Krishna. The way 'Karma' is used in the story that you have mentioned, is totally illogical and irrational (i.e. the way Land Lord has used the word Karma). If you have access, please read commentaries on Karma Yoga so that your doubts would get clarified" Then about ShreemaNnaaraayana, Love and Vedic Religion : "There are many ways to reach Hari. The main and the easiest I feel is the Prema Bhakti. It is this Prema Bhakti that was flowing in abundance between Gopis and Shree Krishna (as Gopi Bhavam). Shree Krishnaavataara is such a Gem of the Avataaraas, which guides everyone in the most suitable way for oneself towards him. All these have their roots in Vedas. If one is perfectly directed towards ShreemaNaaraayana, one just cannot find any bad human qualities in him / her (like hatredness, exploitation, anger, selfishness etc. etc. which the story you have mentioned is indicating)" The final thing : "In every place, we find people who mis-use everything including Religion to their own very mean, cheap and selfish needs. It is true of Vedic Religion also. They are the people who bring disrepute to Religions and cover the Truth with False things. But this will be very temporary, Truth always wins" Respected Bhaagavathaas of the list may pardon me for any of the mistakes in this opinion of mine. Hari Hari --- greg michel <gregokrasz wrote: > Pranams, > Usually when it comes to discussing hindu bielefs > often orthodox christans say that it has no sense of > social justice. They say that theory of karma make > people fatalistic about their lifes. > Whatever happens to me is my karma and there is no > point of counteracting it. For instance lately I > have > heard a story from a christan nun. She was serving > people in hospital and one day came to her a man > from > lower caste ( sudra, or loer) suffering from stomach > ache. She find out that he was working for a rich > landlord but landlord wasn’t paying him for his job. > In effect he was starving and suffering from > deasise.The nun visted landlord to speak with him > about the matter. She asked why he wasn’t paying the > man for his job and mentioned that a man was about > to > die. The landlord replied: “It is his karma, and you > have done a wrong thing by helping him. If he would > have died he surely would have attained higher > caste > in his next birth as a effect of his service to me.” > The things has taken place in India in mid sixties. > She went on saying, it was on a radio, that vedas > have no teachings of love. Only Christe commanded > “To > love your neighbour as yourself” or “Whatever you > have > done to this lowest among yourselfs you have done it > to me”. Therfore, she concluded, christian faith > represents much higher teachings than any hindu > sect. > Could you comment on this. Is it really true? Are > there commandments in Vedas similiar to christan? > With best wishes, > Garga Rsi das Send FREE video emails in Mail! http://promo./videomail/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 19, 2002 Dear Greg, In India it is quite common to attribute life's innumerable challenges to karmA. Generally, it serves to prod a worried-mind to get on with life and do one's duty. People justify their actions and inactions based on karmA - so it works both ways. karmA theory is not fatalistic. VEdic teachings cover the whole gamut of existence from the perspective of the inner soul. Among other things, the teachings advise a social order whereby everyone participates and performs a key role in ensuring the welfare of the society. The incident you highlighted is a perfect example of exploitation on the basis of religion - an unscrupulous landlord exploiting a hapless peasant on one side, and on the other, a religious worker exploiting the situation to proselytize - the victim obviously stays a victim, physically, mentally and spiritually. "dharmayEva hathO hanthi: dharmO raksati raksita:" - dharmA destroys its destroyer: dharma protects its protector. ahimsA satyamakrodhastyAgah : sAntirapaisunam | dayAbhutEsualolupatvam mArdavaim hriracApalam || - srI bhagavad gItA chapter 16: verse 2 "Non-injury, truth, freedom from anger, renunciation, tranquility, non-slandering others, compassion to all beings, freedom from desire, gentleness, sense of shame, freedom from fickleness" - are all divine qualities. Respectfully, Sriram Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 19, 2002 Even if the story of the nun is true, the rich man does not represent vedic knowledge. As per vedid injunction, we are not supposed to judge others by their past karma. Let me tell you an anecdote that one Christian missionary told me. He had given up Christianity and taken up Vaishnavism. As an ex-Christian, his old god brothers had invited him to their church and started telling him a similar story of love and told him that there is no sense of love outside of Christianity. My friend walked with them to their kitchen and started talking about the delicious cuisines that the arch bishop loves- these were made of beef, meat and chicken. My friend pointed out that the arch bishop is lacking in love for animals and other poor human beings. For mere satisfaction of mortal body - his tongue - the arch bishop is forcing his followers to kill innocent animals. He added statistics to show how eating non-vegetarian food deprives millions of poor people their simple food. There was nothing but empty assertion that Chritianity allows non-vegetarianism. Most of the missionaries do social service to attract followers like Teresa for example. She used to spend frugally on her patients who get victimized by her untrained nurses inspite of the fact she gets millions from drug and arms dealers as donation. Most of the Christian missionaries run schools and hospitals for a living, creating a following and almost always using tax payers money. There are some genuine social service minded Christian missionaries. This is purely their personal merit and happens inspite of the influence of modern day Christianity. Before getting into Vedic view, let me quicly dwell on modern Day Christianity. Most of the teachings of Jesus were lost because the Church burnt whatever was not comfortable to them. As a result of this folly, with the modern day bible we can prove that Jesus never existed! My brother is writing a book for the benefit of the modern day chrsitians. You may request him to pass some of the manuscripts to you karthik_v. Ofcourse, I believe that Jesus existed because there is reference to him. As per the original teachings, there is karma, reincarnation and vegetarianism. Th latter day church leaders like the Paul, the king Constantine and other Popes did a poor job of destroying the work of jesus. So we can prove that Christianity supports karma theory with the help of of Bible, other contemporary literature and living Christian traditions. For details, contact my brother. Having said that the orignal Christianity is a diluted version of sanatana dharma taught by our acharyas like Ramanujacharya, and it contains essential vedic teachings like karma, let me share my little understanding of the concept of love in Vedas. Due to my own ignorance and hard heart that is devoid of bhakti to Sriman Narayana, I may be able to do only a poor job. But I am sure that by the causeless love of the Lord, you will get a start. We are supposed to give away in charity to other humans for which we have so many classifications of dhana like anna dhana, vidya dhana etc. We are also supposed to perform bhoota yajna. When we draw kolam or rangoli (paintings with rice flour) infront of the Lord, the ants are supposed to eat them. We offer food to crows and other birds in the morning before we even eat our own food. And we are supposed to feed dogs. Even today, you can go to Indian villages and see our ladies calling out to dogs with food in hand saying "tho tho". But our sense of loving sacrifice culminated in loving sacrifice of the results of all our activities to Narayana. Please note that our love is based on spiritual equality of all beings and is based on the love of God Himself. And if you dont accept the concept of karma, your modern day Christians have a big problem. Why is the Lord cruel to some of His own creations ? While we recognize that karma exists, we have temporary means of burning karma away like prayaschittam and permanent upaayam namely surrender un to the Lord. greg michel <gregokrasz wrote: Pranams, Usually when it comes to discussing hindu bielefs often orthodox christans say that it has no sense of social justice. They say that theory of karma make people fatalistic about their lifes. Whatever happens to me is my karma and there is no point of counteracting it. For instance lately I have heard a story from a christan nun. She was serving people in hospital and one day came to her a man from lower caste ( sudra, or loer) suffering from stomach ache. She find out that he was working for a rich landlord but landlord wasn't paying him for his job. In effect he was starving and suffering from deasise.The nun visted landlord to speak with him about the matter. She asked why he wasn't paying the man for his job and mentioned that a man was about to die. The landlord replied: "It is his karma, and you have done a wrong thing by helping him. If he would have died he surely would have attained higher caste in his next birth as a effect of his service to me." The things has taken place in India in mid sixties. She went on saying, it was on a radio, that vedas have no teachings of love. Only Christe commanded "To love your neighbour as yourself" or "Whatever you have done to this lowest among yourselfs you have done it to me". Therfore, she concluded, christian faith represents much higher teachings than any hindu sect. Could you comment on this. Is it really true? Are there commandments in Vedas similiar to christan? With best wishes, Garga Rsi das Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 20, 2002 bhakti-list, "Krishna Kashyap" <kkalale1@s...> wrote: >karma theory means freedom which is given by God and is dependent on >God. how can freedom be dependent?. It is like a cow tied to a >pillar with a very long rope. the cow has freedom to move around >within the radius equal to or less than the length of the rope, but >constrained when it wants to go beyond the radius. Like that a soul >has freedom to move about but restricted in certain ways. the tied-cow explanation is due to sri ramakrishna. but if one were to believe that the world is governed by laws of causation (as the original poster had supposed to be the theory of karma), one has to rule out any external agency - including god - having the ability to govern our fate. consequently, this was the impetus that buddhism and jainism needed to bring the concept of atheism, fatalism and the non- existence of the hindu trinity. in my humble opinion, this is a very wrong way of looking at the theory of karma. karma consists of three parts - one accounting for our initial state (which is irrevocable - which is commonly referred to as "fate"), another accounting for our past (which can be eradicated by prayers), and the last part accounting for our future actions (which is completely in our hands and is in no way related to "fate"). this last part of karma is the exercise of our free will and proves that it is god and not "fate" that is omni-potent. regards, prabhu. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 20, 2002 i believe you consider matthew 22:36-40 (KJV) as being the principal tenets of christianity - 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. i quote the bhagavad gita 12.13-14 (swami prabhupada's translation) - "One who is not envious but is a kind friend to all living entities, who does not think himself a proprietor and is free from false ego, who is equal in both happiness and distress, who is tolerant, always satisfied, self-controlled, and engaged in devotional service with determination, his mind and intelligence fixed on Me -- such a devotee of Mine is very dear to Me." i can't see any difference between the gospel according to matthew 22:36-40 and the bhagavad gita 12.13-14. in fact, the gita seems to go further and directs man to love *all* living beings - not only one's neighbours, parents etc. this is regarding the underlying theories of christianity and hinduism. translating theory to practice is a different matter entirely. regards, prabhu. bhakti-list, greg michel <gregokrasz> wrote: > Pranams, > Usually when it comes to discussing hindu bielefs > often orthodox christans say that it has no sense of > social justice. They say that theory of karma make > people fatalistic about their lifes. > Whatever happens to me is my karma and there is no > point of counteracting it. For instance lately I have > heard a story from a christan nun. She was serving > people in hospital and one day came to her a man from > lower caste ( sudra, or loer) suffering from stomach > ache. She find out that he was working for a rich > landlord but landlord wasn't paying him for his job. > In effect he was starving and suffering from > deasise.The nun visted landlord to speak with him > about the matter. She asked why he wasn't paying the > man for his job and mentioned that a man was about to > die. The landlord replied: "It is his karma, and you > have done a wrong thing by helping him. If he would > have died he surely would have attained higher caste > in his next birth as a effect of his service to me." > The things has taken place in India in mid sixties. > She went on saying, it was on a radio, that vedas > have no teachings of love. Only Christe commanded "To > love your neighbour as yourself" or "Whatever you have > done to this lowest among yourselfs you have done it > to me". Therfore, she concluded, christian faith > represents much higher teachings than any hindu sect. > Could you comment on this. Is it really true? Are > there commandments in Vedas similiar to christan? > With best wishes, > Garga Rsi das > > > > > Send FREE video emails in Mail! > http://promo./videomail/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 20, 2002 srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha srImadh varavara munayE namaha Dear Sri Garga Rsi das, The incident you have described is just a story of a man, who has completely not understood the vEdAs. Nowhere in your message it is said that, the landlord is a vedic scholar. If he is a true scholar, that man would not have committed such a daring misdeed and blame it on karma. Probably he was one of the many "supression minded" landlords, of whom, unfortunately, there are many in India (A bitter fact) Also, trying to understand the vEdAs, from the misdeeds of one ignorant landlord is completely absurd. As quoted by another member of this forum aptly, an anectode is not the complete tradition. Also the anectodes are not always traditionally correct. What I mean to say is that though this is an anecdote quoted by you, this is traditionally incorrect. May be true that the vEdAs doesn't talk much about the love and that they only talk about knowledge and karma. But go through the outpourings of AzhwArs, which is nothing but the essence of vEdAs. It is love, love and love only. It is love on part of god. It is love on part of his devotees. It is love on part of even the achEtana vasthus. The Brahma SutrAs are nothing but the essence of the vEdAs and the upanishads. Sri rAmAnuja wrote commentary for this, which is known as "Sri BhAshyam". Nobody has been able to challenge the interpretations made by Sri rAmAnuja on the Brahma Sutras. SwAmy azhagiya maNavALa perumAL nAyanAr, in His magnum opus "AchArya Hrudayam" ( This is an unparalleled work, which describes the entire thiruvAzimozhi with respect to the rahasyAs entrained in it) says that " idhu koNdu Sri bhAshaykArar sUtrangaLai orunga viduvar". It means, Sri rAmAnuja explains the brahma sUtras with the help of AzhwAr's works. Sri Vachana BhooshNam a very authentic rahasya grantha by Sri piLLai lOkAchAryar ( Incidentally he is the elder brother of the above referred Sri azhagiya maNavALa peruMaL nAyanAr) gives, vivid references to many AzhwAr's works regarding the love that should shown to all kinds of human creations. He even compares the vEdas to AzhwAr's works in this aspect. In dEsika prabhandam, Swamy dEsikar brings this point out clearly by saying that "seyya thamizh mAlaigaL nAm theLiya Odhi, theLiyAdha maRai nilangaL theligindrOmE". Meanz, the AzhwAr's works, gives out the clear meaning of the, otherwise difficult to understand portion of the vEdAs. So please be informed that Sri Vaishnavism, the "parama vaidhika matham" is full of love. All said and done, it should be remembered that due the wider terminology used as "hinduism" many misinterpret the vEdas and find fault with it. If only, people take time to understand the vEdas thorougly, then this question will never arise. Finally, if one wants to find fault with vEdas and Sri Vaishnavism or Hinduism in turn, they can do it in anyway they want. But to appreciate them, one should learn them from an AchAryA who is well versed in it. AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 20, 2002 The cow analogy fits in karma theory. there is nothing wrong. God also fits into karma theory. he is karmadhyaksha or the governor of the process of rewards as per karma. the issues sri prabhu has indicated : are all in the general karma theory : the sanchita, agaami, prarabhdha ( anabhyupagata prarabhdha and abhupagatha prarabhdha) ... ie. accrued in past, future, enforced already and that will be enforced in future which cannot be changed. karma theory is quite exhaustive and probably needs a larger email. when I get a chance I will write it. the tied cow analogy only indicates the limit of our capacity. god does have a role. He is just and does not favour any one who is undeserving. However, due to the grace of God karmas can be reduced or eliminated. the evoking of grace can happen due to meditation or vidya or surrender. if karmas cannot be influenced or modified by God there is no question of moksha or salvation. regards, Krishna g_prabhu_srinivas [g_prabhu_srinivas] Sunday, January 20, 2002 12:31 PM bhakti-list Re: social justice bhakti-list, "Krishna Kashyap" <kkalale1@s...> wrote: >karma theory means freedom which is given by God and is dependent on >God. how can freedom be dependent?. It is like a cow tied to a >pillar with a very long rope. the cow has freedom to move around >within the radius equal to or less than the length of the rope, but >constrained when it wants to go beyond the radius. Like that a soul >has freedom to move about but restricted in certain ways. the tied-cow explanation is due to sri ramakrishna. but if one were to believe that the world is governed by laws of causation (as the original poster had supposed to be the theory of karma), one has to rule out any external agency - including god - having the ability to govern our fate. consequently, this was the impetus that buddhism and jainism needed to bring the concept of atheism, fatalism and the non- existence of the hindu trinity. in my humble opinion, this is a very wrong way of looking at the theory of karma. karma consists of three parts - one accounting for our initial state (which is irrevocable - which is commonly referred to as "fate"), another accounting for our past (which can be eradicated by prayers), and the last part accounting for our future actions (which is completely in our hands and is in no way related to "fate"). this last part of karma is the exercise of our free will and proves that it is god and not "fate" that is omni-potent. regards, prabhu. ----------------------------- - SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH - To Post a message, send it to: bhakti-list Archives: http://ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/ Your use of is subject to Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 22, 2002 SrImatE nigamaanta mahaa-dESikaaya namaH Theory of karma aside, interestingly SrIman-nigamaanta-dESika, as if to reassure suffering devotees, prays to SrI-ranganaatha-paaduka to have karmic ill-fate removed. "parisara vinataanaam muurdhni dur-varNa-panktim pariNamasi SaurE: paadukE tvam suvarNam" (SrI-paadukaa-sahasram) -aDiyEn, Ramkumar bhakti-list, "tg_ram" <tg_ram> wrote: > > Pardon my previous typo. > I mean to ask - Does SrIman-nArAyaNa modify abhyupagata-praarabdha- > karma ? > > Thanks > > -aDiyEn, Ramkumar > > > [...] > > if karmas cannot be influenced or modified by God there is no > > question of moksha or salvation. > > > > regards, > > > > Krishna > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
