Some questions regarding some of our customs ...

[Guest guest]

I have had certain questions regarding some of the customs that we

follow, and have tried to list them below. Would the learned people in

this group help me understand these customs please.

 

 

 

1. I have heard people tell me that we are not supposed to walk across

the Sanctum Sanctorum in a way to block visibility for Shri Garudazhvar

to the Mulavar. Accordingly a lot of temples are constructed in a way

where it is not possible for one to do that - such as Shri Sarangapani

Koil in Thirukkudanthai.

 

However, this architecture is not prevalent in all the temples - example

- Shri Uppiliappan Koil. Is there any significance in this belief ? If

so what ?

 

2. There are certain ShriVaishnavas when prostrating, perform the act 4

times or in multiples of 2. However, there are certain other

ShriVaishnavas who do it just once (such as the people belonging to

"thenKalai" <- Please do not turn this question into a "kalai" fight).

What is the significance here ?

 

3. Most of our temples on the Maha Gopuram of the sanctum have specific

dieties facing specific directions. Such as Shri Lakshmi Narayanar

always is described on the east facing side of the Sactum Gopuram. Shri

Lakshmi Varahar on the South facing side, Shri Lakshmi Narasimhar on the

West facing side and Shri Lakshmi Hayagrivar on the North facing side.

I might have the directions and the dieties mixed up, but I did notice

the last time when I was in India, that all temples are pretty much

consistent with respect to this matter. Any significance ?

 

4. A very fundamental question. Why is it that when we go around in a

"pradakshinam", we go around the sanctum in the direction we do it as

opposed to doing it the other way ? Does the word "dakshin" in the word

have any significance ?

 

5. Lastly, why is it that we are told to prostrate ourselves in a

temple past the dvajasthambam and not in between the sanctum and the

dvajastambam ?

 

Thanks in advance for educating me on this matters and more.

 

Regards,

 

Raja Krishnasamy

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

--- Raja Krishnasamy <rxkrishn wrote

> > > I have had certain questions regarding some of

the> customs that we > follow, and have tried to list

them below. >

> 1. I have heard people tell me that we are not

> supposed to walk across

> the Sanctum Sanctorum in a way to block visibility

> for Shri Garudazhvar

> to the Mulavar. Accordingly a lot of temples are

> constructed in a way

> where it is not possible for one to do that - such

> as Shri Sarangapani

> Koil in Thirukkudanthai.

>

 

If the line of vision between 'moolavar' and

'garudAzhwAr' is left clear by devotees everyone will

have unobstructed view of the Deity. Otherwise, as is

the unfortunate case in almost all temples in India

today, devotees will compete and keep shoving each

other around to have 'darshan'. It is a very selfish

way of having 'darshan' but 'free-for-all' is what

happens in most our temples today.

> 2. There are certain ShriVaishnavas when

> prostrating, perform the act 4 > times or in

multiples of 2. However, there are > certain other

> ShriVaishnavas who do it just once (such as the

> people belonging to > "thenKalai" <- Please do not

turn this question into > a "kalai" fight).

> What is the significance here ?

 

Whether one likes it or not, it is a

'vadagalai'/'tenkalai' difference. Vaadagalais stick

to 2 or multiples-of-2 method of prostration.I guess

it has something to do with the doctrinal emphasis on

paying equal obesiance to both 'perumal' and

'pirAtti'.The tenkalais do not place 'pirAtti' on the

same plane as 'sarvEshwaran'.

>

> 3. Most of our temples on the Maha Gopuram of the

> sanctum have specific > dieties facing specific

directions. Such as Shri> Lakshmi Narayanar

> always is described on the east facing side of the

> Sactum Gopuram. Shri > Lakshmi Varahar on the South

facing side, Shri> Lakshmi Narasimhar on the

> West facing side and Shri Lakshmi Hayagrivar on the

> North facing side. > I might have the directions and

the dieties mixed> up, but I did notice

> the last time when I was in India, that all temples

> are pretty much> consistent with respect to this

matter. Any > significance ?

 

There must be something in the 'agama-sAstra' in this;

a thing or two perhaps in the 'silpa-sAstra' too. But,

quite significantly, the deities you mention as facing

all 4 directions ("dik") include "lakshmi" in every

instance.I suppose it symbolises "all-round

auspiciousness" such as what Desikan describes in the

stanza 15 of "sri-stuthi":

"yasyAm yasyAm dishi viharatE devi-dhristas-tvadeeya

tasyAm tasyAm-aham-ahameekAm tanvatE sampadOgAha!"

("Whichever direction Thou cast eyes, O Devi,

qualities of auspiciousness scramble to be there!")

> 4. A very fundamental question. Why is it that

> when we go around in a > "pradakshinam", we go

around the sanctum in the > direction we do it as

> opposed to doing it the other way ? Does the word

> "dakshin" in the word > have any significance ?

 

I think the word is to be pronounced as "pradakshanam"

not "pradakshinam". Hence nothing to do with

"dakshin'.

> 5. Lastly, why is it that we are told to prostrate

> ourselves in a> temple past the dvajasthambam and

not in between the > sanctum and the

> dvajastambam ?

>

If you prostrate between the sanctum and the

dvajhastambam you will be forced to turn your

posterior on not only the dvajhastamba but also

garudAzhwAr. To avoid such an unseemly situation it is

advisable to prostrate past the dvajhastambam so that

'perumal', 'garudAzhwAr' and the 'stambam' are all

ahead of us and all 3 are in position to receive our

prostrations.

> Raja Krishnasamy> begin:vcard

 

adiyEn,

Sampathkumaran

 

=====

 

 

 

Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagavatas

 

I have heard and been told that one has to do SAshtAnga DhaNDa SamarpaNam to

Yathivaras until they say "Enough"and I have been following this.

Compassionately, I have found their hurrying to tarry me from further

prostration after just one or two.

 

Srimad Azhagiya Singhar once remarked soon on assuming ThureeyAsramam that he

could not bear to see great Bhagavatas (some of them senior to him in age)

prostrating repeatedly at his feet and was quick to say "Porum".

 

He continued "Perhaps, because I am new to this, I feel a little embarrassed.

May be, when I get used to this, I may not care to say "Porum" as quickly as

I do now!".

 

During BharaNyAsam in the Sannidhi of Perumal in the PounDarikapuram

Ashramam, while he was pleading to the Lord within the Sannidhi to accept my

Prapatti, my Acharya asked me to continue this SAshtAnga DhanDams as many

times as I could (repeating the mantram he had just then initiated me into)

but also advised with genuine concern that should at any stage I felt too

tired, I could take some respite and continue when I felt a bit relieved! I

was about 60 years of age at that time and this probably prompted him to

extend this concession!

 

Dasoham

Anbil Ramaswamy

[Guest guest]

> > 2. There are certain ShriVaishnavas when

> > prostrating, perform the act 4 times or in

> > multiples of 2. However, there are certain other

> > ShriVaishnavas who do it just once (such as the

> > people belonging to "thenKalai" <- Please do not

> > turn this question into a "kalai" fight).

> > What is the significance here ?

 

The moods of each kind of prostration are slightly

different, but each in their own way intend to convey

the utmost respect. In one method (single prostration),

the prostration is ended when the elder to whom the

namskAram is being done says "ezhundiRu, pa! (get up, my

son!)". The the other (multiple prostration), the

prostration is ended when the elder says "pOrum, pOrum, pa!

(enough, enough!). Let's examine each.

 

(a) Prostrating only once

 

Those who prostrate only once and stay down until

told to get up feel that this is the most respectful way

of doing namaskAram. It is thought that here, one is

behaving as if he or she is completely at the mercy of

the other person, without any independent will. It is

also held that a single prostration at the feet of

a merciful elder is itself enough to secure all blessings;

why prostrate multiply, as if to ask for more? Don't

tug on the Lord's heartstrings, don't try to prove that

you merit His grace. A single gesture is far more than enough.

 

(b) Prostrating multiple times

 

Those who prostrate again and again feel that this indicates

one's perpetual willingness to serve, as well as one's

perpetual willingness to be "sesha" of the other. In other

words, the mood is "it is not only just for now that I am falling

at your feet. Just because I get up once does not mean that

my prostration ends. It is perpetual, for ever and ever."

The multiple prostration is intended to convey this willingness.

 

Of course, there are arguments between proponents of each kalai as

to which form is the more ancient, more traditional form. I won't

get into that here. Suffice it to say, however, that each bhAvam

finds expression in some form or another in our pUrvAchAryas' works:

 

-- Single Prostration

 

prAyaH prapadane pumsAm paunaH punyam nivArayan |

hastaS SrIrangabhartur mAm avyAd abhayamudritaH ||

 

"May the right hand of Lord Ranganatha, which, held

in the abhaya-mudra pose, promises freedom of fear to all,

protect me, as it asks those who have surrendered to

Him to not do it again and again." -- Nyasa Tilaka, sloka 2

 

This is a reference to the pose of Lord Ranganatha in utsava

form as Namperumaal. His hand is held up, in abhaya-mudra,

and Desika imagines this as saying "Stop! A single prapatti

is enough! Don't repeat it!" If we take namaskAram as being

equivalent to prapatti, one could take this bhAvam to mean

that a single namaskAram is enough.

 

Swami Desikan's son Kumara Varadacharya eloquently writes,

putting words in Ranganatha's mouth, "My solemn vow is that

upon a single observance of prapatti, I will give everything

that is desired. If surrender is done again and again, I have

nothing at all to give, and I will become a debtor. So stop!"

 

-- Multiple Prostration

 

nIlAtungastanagiritaTI suptam udbOdhya kRshNaM

pArArthyaM svaM SrutiSataSiras siddham adhyApayantI |

svOcchishTAyAm sraji nigalitam yA balAtkRtya bhunktE

gOdA tasyai nama idam idaM bhUya EvAstu bhUyaH ||

 

"... may my repeated namaskArams to Goda forever

increase ..." -- Parasara Bhattar's thaniyan to Tiruppaavai

 

The meaning of this is obvious.

 

One may disagree with these interpretations, but let's take them

in a positive, non-argumentative spirit.

 

[ As far as I have learnt and read, this distinction is not

based on differing conceptions of Lakshmi Thaayaar, as

another correspondent has written. ]

> > 4. A very fundamental question. Why is it that

> > when we go around in a "pradakshinam", we go

> > around the sanctum in the direction we do it as

> > opposed to doing it the other way ? Does the word

> > "dakshin" in the word have any significance ?

 

Yes, the word "dakshiNa" is significant. (The word is

not "pradakshaNam", as someone else mentioned.) "dakshina"

refers to the right. One circumambulates the Lord's shrine

clockwise, keeping the Lord always to the right or "dakshiNa"

side. That is why this is known as "pradakshiNam".

 

The exact reason for this is not very clear, but it is generally

considered more respectful to move about keeping a revered

object to one's right side. This is universal in India -- Buddhists,

Jains, as well as all varieties of Hindus observe this practice.

 

aDiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Mani

[Guest guest]

Sorry, a couple more words of a personal note on the

various forms of doing "sEvippu" or "dandam samarpaNam",

prostrating like a stick of wood in front of elders

and PerumaaL.

 

Having grown up in a Vadagalai household, I have always

done "sEvippu" two or four times, as instructed by my

parents. I have never felt comfortable doing it only

once in Thengalai fashion -- it somehow feels incomplete

to me. However, I have also found it strange to see some

Vadagalai people fall down and hurriedly and immediately

get up, and do this countless times. They even get tired

in the process, as they take no rest when they are down!

This also seemed to my eye to lack some bhAvam, as they

didn't even stay down at the Lord's feet (no criticism

intended. All forms are appropriate. This is just personal

reaction).

 

Avoiding either one of these problems, I follow my father's

practice as well as that of my acharya, Sri Rangapriya Swami.

I do two namaskArams, as my tradition specifies, but for each

I spend a considerable time on the ground. My father used to

instruct us to say some slokam asking for the Lord's protection

while doing this, such as

"anyathA SaraNam nAsti, tvam eva SaraNam mama |

tasmAt kAruNya bhAvena, raksha! raksha! janArdana ||" or

 

"aparAdha sahasra bhAjanam patitam bhIma bhavArNavodare |

agatim SaraNAgatam hare! kRpayA kevalam AtmasAt kuru ||"

 

Rangapriya Swami is invariably reciting the name "Narayana,

Narayana", and he continues to do this during his slow, solemn

prostrations.

 

So, perhaps there are three ways of doing namaskAram?

(Just kidding).

 

daasan,

Mani

[Guest guest]

Sri:

 

Srimathe Gopaladesika Mahadesikaya Namah:

 

Dearest Sri Anbil mama,

 

You wrote:

> During BharaNyAsam in the Sannidhi of Perumal in the PounDarikapuram

> Ashramam, while he was pleading to the Lord within the Sannidhi to accept

> my

> Prapatti, my Acharya asked me to continue this SAshtAnga DhanDams as many

> times as I could (repeating the mantram he had just then initiated me

> into)

> but also advised with genuine concern that should at any stage I felt too

> tired, I could take some respite and continue when I felt a bit relieved!

> I

> was about 60 years of age at that time and this probably prompted him to

> extend this concession!

>

======

In fact, the most compassionate Swamy also told adiyEn too, (though I was

not that old..) to stop when felt tired. AchAryAs' concerns are more than

even PerumAL's.

 

The same way- immediately after bharaNyAsam, Swamy said "pOi paal

yEdhaavadhu saappidu.. " (Go and drink milk or some other drinks.) He was so

much concerned that we stayed starved since the morning (which we generally

do not), while he does not eat on all days till about 1 - 1.30 p.m..

 

=======

 

Regards

 

Narayana Narayana

 

Narayana dAsan

[Guest guest]

Sri Venkata Gurave Nama:

Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama:

 

Respected Swamin,

 

The practice of prostrating once or more by Sri vaishnavaas are due to

their belief systems rooted in their respective Philosophies.

 

Let us first look at Vadaglai sampradayam.

 

Sri.Rmanuja's Sri Vaikuda Gadyam, ends like

 

"Swamin..... Phuna Phuna Pranamya:"

 

He says to the Lord that he prostrates HIM repeatedly.

 

Taking cue from Emperumanar, they have adopted multiple prostrations.

 

you can ask, " phuna phuna" means innumerable times, then why they are

finishing with 2 or four times.

 

the samadhanam for this is, unlike tamil grammer, in sansrit grammer we

have singular, plural and DUAL.(ERUMAI)

hence any prostration more than twice should be considered as in multiples.

 

Now, Thengalai sampradayam,

Why they are prostrating only once?

it is said that vibheeshana just once prostrated, Sri.Rama took him in his

fort.

the elephent called only once 'Adimoolamae'....there you see perumal giving

protection.

not to negate prahalada's wish, he appeared at ONCE.

 

hence by just making single saranagathi, he gives kadakshama at once.such

is His love for us.

hence to remind him more and more by prostrating more and more, we have not

understood HIS mercy properly and hece multiple prosrtations are not

correct..

 

i leave it to our members to form the right judgement. the right way is to

follow what elders have told us instead of changing things which we find

according to our judgement.

 

I have given this above account after hearing from elders. if there is any

mistake it has to be only my incorrect understanding.

 

Dasan

 

K.M.Narayanan

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[Guest guest]

Sri:

 

Dear Sri Narayanan,

 

Your writing is good. Quite analytical.

 

You wrote:

> Why they are prostrating only once?

> it is said that vibheeshana just once prostrated, Sri.Rama took him in his

> fort.

> the elephent called only once 'Adimoolamae'....there you see perumal

> giving

> protection.

> not to negate prahalada's wish, he appeared at ONCE.

>

> hence by just making single saranagathi, he gives kadakshama at once.such

> is His love for us.

> hence to remind him more and more by prostrating more and more, we have

> not

> understood HIS mercy properly and hece multiple prosrtations are not

> correct..

===========

We are not even qualified to speak which is correct or incorrect. (at least

I am not) We have Parama

Bhagawathas in both sampradayam and we have highest regards for them in both

sides.

Our respect for all of Poorva acharyas is profound and deep.

 

There are "anubhavam" laden subtle differences.

 

Sri Mani wrote so excellenetly defending both once and multiple from

AchAryAs' slOkams.

BOTH are true. We need to follow what we are asked to.. by our elders.

 

In as much as you say, prostrating once is adequate, then the subsequent

question can be, why should

it be "once" everytime after it is prostrated "once". So, only one

prostration in a life time..??

 

The queries and interpretations are endless.

 

I get as much moved with the explanation of why "once" the same extent as I

get moved why "multiple".

(When we really feel sorry for something and ask for forgiving, don't we say

"sorry. Very sorry.. Extremely sorry.. " more than once.? with more guilt..)

 

AzhwAr Emperumaanaar Desikan and JIyer ThiruvadigaLE SaraNam

 

Regards

 

Narayana Narayana

 

Narayana dAsan

[Guest guest]

SrI:

namO nArAyaNA.

 

Shri Raja Krishnasamy Wrote

======================

5. Lastly, why is it that we are told to prostrate

ourselves in a temple past the dvajasthambam and

not in between the sanctum and the dvajastambam ?

 

Shri sampath kumar replied ----------------

 

If you prostrate between the sanctum and the

dvajhastambam you will be forced to turn your

posterior on not only the dvajhastamba but also

garudAzhwAr. To avoid such an unseemly situation it is

advisable to prostrate past the dvajhastambam so that

'perumal', 'garudAzhwAr' and the 'stambam' are all

ahead of us and all 3 are in position to receive our

prostrations.

---------------------------

======================

 

AdiyEn would just like to add the following point to this discussion.

In the Varaha puranam it is mentioned that one should not

prostrate in between the sanctum. There are several deities around

the temple. When we prostrate in specific sannidhi's we might

extend our feet towards the other deities. This leads to Bagavad

apacharam and hence has to be certainly avoided. In fact this is one

of the 32 Bagavad apacharams mentioned in Varaha puranam.

 

Dvajhastambam is hence constructed with the view in mind that

when we prostrate at the dvajhastambam we do not end up doing

apacharam to other deities.

 

Acharyan ThiruvadigalE saranam

Praveena nAmni rAmAnuja dAsi

[Guest guest]

Dear BhakthAs : Srimathi PraveeNA Anand is

right , when she says the prostration should be

done at the Dhvajasthambham .There are records of

AchArya RaamAnujA offering his DhaNdavath praNAmam at

the dhvaja sthambham of ThiruveLLarai PerumAl Koil

and then once again at Bali Peetam (before Garudan Sannidhi)

prior to entering PerumAL's garbha graham .

 

I am delighted to read about the responses from

BhakthAs about PradhakshiNam .Srimans Mani Varadarajan

and M.G.VaasudEvan have provided an excellent analysis

on the subject .PradakshiNam is a Vedic word ( Rg Vedam )

and I will comment on it in a separate posting .

 

V.Sadagopan

>

>AdiyEn would just like to add the following point to this discussion.

>In the Varaha puranam it is mentioned that one should not

>prostrate in between the sanctum. There are several deities around

>the temple. When we prostrate in specific sannidhi's we might

>extend our feet towards the other deities. This leads to Bagavad

>apacharam and hence has to be certainly avoided. In fact this is one

>of the 32 Bagavad apacharams mentioned in Varaha puranam.

>

>Dvajhastambam is hence constructed with the view in mind that

>when we prostrate at the dvajhastambam we do not end up doing

>apacharam to other deities.

>

>Acharyan ThiruvadigalE saranam

>Praveena nAmni rAmAnuja dAsi

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagavatas

 

In a message dated 10/14/1999 4:03:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

may2192 writes:

 

<< There are several deities around the temple. When we prostrate in specific

sannidhi's we might extend our feet towards the other deities. This leads to

Bagavad

apacharam and hence has to be certainly avoided. In fact this is one

of the 32 Bagavad apacharams mentioned in Varaha puranam.

 

Dvajhastambam is hence constructed with the view in mind that

when we prostrate at the dvajhastambam we do not end up doing

apacharam to other deities.

 

Acharyan ThiruvadigalE saranam

Praveena nAmni rAmAnuja dAsi

 

>>----------

-------------------------------

I gave the following reply. I thought it may be of interest to other

Bhagavatas also. Hence, I am posting it here.

Dasoham

Anbil Ramaswamy

 

" The same question arose during the days of Kabirdas. When someone objected

to his lying with his feet towards the altar, he is said to have asked "Can

there be a place where BhagavAn is not? So, whichsoever way we prostrate, we

are sure to show our back (or feet) in that direction where also BhagavAn is".

 

But, the bootomline is that we have to follow what our Acharyas have directed

and one such is the practice of not prostrating in between Sanctum and the

Dwaja sthambham.

============================================================