Sri Vaishnava tradition

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

I have two questions. Is worship of only Visnu mandatory or could someone

worship Siva and attain the same level of bhakti? I ask because I was told

Vaishnavites only allow worship of Visnu. I personally like Siva for

unknown reasons and just assume Siva = God = Visnu but maybe that's just

too simplistic to be true?

 

Second question: please recommend best English translations of and

commentaries on the Bhagavad Gita.

 

thank you.

[Guest guest]

ac wrote:

>I am currently reading books on basic Hinduism. Is there anything like

>"Dancing With Siva" for westerners from a Vaishnavite perspective?

 

I wonder if you mean "The Dance of Siva" by Ananda K. Coomaraswamy. If this

is the book mentioned by you, it doesn't refer to a Shaivite (or for that

matter, any other religious) perspective at all. In fact the complete title

of the book is "The Dance of Siva, Essays on India Art and Culture". You

will agree with me that it deals with everything from Indian Music and Art

to the status of Indian women. The title essay within, describes exactly

that...the dance of Siva as Nataraja and has little to do with Shaivite

philosophy.

 

But you've got the right idea. I understand web access can be difficult,

yet, I would strongly suggest you try to access the sites recommended by

Mani Varadarajan at some point. They are lucid in their interpretation and

easy to comprehend even for humble beginners like me!

 

Best wishes,

 

Bhuvana

 

 

_____________

Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. A.C.:

 

First of all, please tell us your name so we can address you properly.

Second, your questions have been discussed in great detail in the

archives already. As you are a new member, I suggest you please go through

the old articles carefully and you will find your answers.

 

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives

 

Third, to address your questions directly:

> I have two questions. Is worship of only Visnu mandatory or could someone

> worship Siva and attain the same level of bhakti? I ask because I was told

> Vaishnavites only allow worship of Visnu.

 

One can attain a high level of bhakti to Siva, but this is not the issue.

The issue is who is described as the Ultimate Reality in the Vedas, and

whether anything else can compare to this Highest Power. Repeatedly,

the shastras and our acharyas tell us that Sriman Narayana (Vishnu) is

the Ultimate Reality, and that only Narayana, being the source of all bliss,

can confer the bliss of moksha to the aspirant.

 

The reason Vaishnavas prescribe worship of Vishnu is because

Vaishnavas theoretically desire only moksha, and only Vishnu is capable

of giving moksha. If you are interested in lesser pursuits, please

go ahead and pursue those deities and powers which are capable of

giving those -- but realize that worship of the Supreme Reality

(synonymous with Vishnu) is what is considered the best and most

fitting for the jIva by the Vedas and consequently our acharyas.

> I personally like Siva for

> unknown reasons and just assume Siva = God = Visnu but maybe that's just

> too simplistic to be true?

 

This is not the position of the Vedas, so yes, it is far too simplistic

if one seeks to be authentic to the Vedic tradition.

> Second question: please recommend best English translations of and

> commentaries on the Bhagavad Gita.

 

Please see

 

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/books/books.html#GITA

 

This is an authentic translation into English of Sri Ramanuja's Gita Bhashya.

You cannot find a better expositor of the Gita than Sri Ramanuja.

You can purchase this book right off the site.

 

rAmAnuja dAsan

Mani

[Guest guest]

Dear Sir,

>First of all, please tell us your name so we can address you properly.

>

 

Please call me Al if you feel uncomfortable with "Dear Sir" or

"Mr. C." as the very proper British often address each other ...

>The issue is who is described as the Ultimate Reality in the Vedas, and

>whether anything else can compare to this Highest Power. Repeatedly,

>the shastras and our acharyas tell us that Sriman Narayana (Vishnu) is

>the Ultimate Reality, and that only Narayana, being the source of all bliss,

>can confer the bliss of moksha to the aspirant.

>

 

I am currently reading books on basic Hinduism. Is there anything like

"Dancing With Siva" for westerners from a Vaishnavite perspective?

 

I'm dismayed you think Siva is just a second rate "tosser" , incapable of

conferring moksha -- what good is Siva to me if he can't do that? I'm

dismayed the Hindu religion might not agree with itself on fundamental

issues like whether God (by any other name) is capable of granting moksha.

Didn't the Saivites, Sankara, etc. all read the same Vedas too? How, I

wonder, did all those brilliant pious souls miss something as important as

this? If the Vedic tradition is so ambiguous it leads to such entirely

different conclusions (ie. Siva is or isn't equal to Visnu) then what kind

of infallible guide can it be to me?

 

Please don't think I'm complaining about you or your tradition because I'm

not. I'm complaining about my difficulty trying to assess what is and

isn't essential and I know that's my problem not anyone else. Just try to

imagine how this all might seem to someone encountering it for the first

time and don't loose patience -- I'm trying my best.

 

P.S.

I have only limited internet access so it's hard for me to read your

archives but i have enquired about Ramanuja's commentary on the Gita from a

cheaper source than Amazon.com

[Guest guest]

Sri:

 

Dear Mr. C,

 

Sage VyAsar is the One who compiled the Vedas; wrote Bramha sUthram,

(the commentary of which is the great Sri Bhashyam of Ramanuja)

and is called Veda Vyasar. After he compiled Vedas, he says:

 

aalOtya sarva saasthrANi vichaaryascha puna: puna: /

idham yEkam sunishparNam dhyEyO nArAyaNas sadhaa:

 

(Sage VyAsA "I have carried out all research in all saashtrAs; I have done

 

all investigations; Wherever I see, I find only this truth reverberating in

all

saasthrAs- i.e. Sriman Narayanan alone is The Only One Lord in all of them")

 

Veda Vyasar also says: (after he complied Vedas and wrote Brahma soothram),

raising his hands: Sathyam; Sathyam; Punassathyam; ... Vedhaas saasthraa:

Param naasthE na Deivam Kesavaath Param". Vedas, Saashthras do not proclaim

any other Deivam as ParamAthmA other than Kesavan..

 

Even for Sankaracharyas (Kanchi), they utter Narayana smaraNam, and never

says

Siva is greater..

 

It is only Sriman Narayanan, (Naaram +ayanam)

"naara" means Jeevan , which does not perish.

"ayanam " means: a resting place/ abode /support;

UpayA or means and fruit or objective .

NaarAyaNA is the one for whom the Jeevans serve

as the abode or resting place. He is their antharvyApthi.

NaarAyaNA is the inner resident of all chethanms.

 

The Purusha sUktham says: anthar bhahithschathassarvam vyApya nArAyaNas

sthithah: Inside and outside (the beings and non beings), everywhere,

Narayana

exists. Narayana Suktham says: Sa Brahma, Sa Siva SreNdra sOkshara: Parama

svarAt:

He is Brahma, Siva; Indran, et al.

 

Except for One Lord, Sri Narayanan, all others are JivAthmAs inlcuding

Sivan, Brahma.

In fact, it is also told Sivan, Brahma are posts/positions, which is

occupied by exalted

souls / jIvAthmAs. The king (Sriman Narayanan,) may appoint few pesron as

ministers

and commanders etc,, to carry out ceratin duties, and to do some jobs, for

which they

are given certain powers to do their work. Nothing more. We are all

residents oh His

Kingdom and we do give respect to minsiters and KNOW THAT YOUR KING IS

THE KING. Don't stop at the gate admiring the gate keeper and army general's

personality

and powers.. Come inside and be blseed at the manifolded, multi folded

GREATEST

PARAMA KAARUNYAN, PARAMA SOWLABHYAN, who is always waiting to receive

you.. Sarvagnan, Sarva Shakthan, Most Beautiful, Most Merciful, KalyANa

guNagaNouka

mahaarNavan..

 

As you may have heard of ThirumazhisaiAzhwAr. He studied first, buddhism,

then

Jainism and later became a saivite calling himself as "sivavaakkiyar, till

he was

transformed by pEyAzhwAr into a great bhaktha of Sriya: Pathi Sriman

Narayanan. (He had even composed a pAsuram "sakkiyam kaRROm;

samaN kaRROm; sankaranaar aakkiya aagama noolaRindhOm; etc..

 

The AzhwAr was so straightforwarded, outspoken, fearless and established

the oneness and supremacy of Sriman nArAyaNan and sri vaishNavam. He became

an exemplary Sri vaishNava AcharyA and it is told that he spent about 700

years meditating on TiruvallikkeNi perumAL Sri vEnkata krishNan.

 

Here's Thirumazhisai Vandha jOthi's Naanmukhan Thiruvandhaadhi, 1st and

96th. Beautiful...

 

First.. Thaniyan on Thirumazhisai AzhwAr's Naanmugan Thiruvandhaadhi

 

NaaraayaNan padaitthaan naanmuganai* naanmuganukku/

yEraar sivan piRandhaan ennum chol*- seeraar/

mozhi seppi vaazhalaam nenjamE!* moi poo/

mazhisaip piraan adiyE vaazhtthu.

 

NarayaNan created Brahman (the four headed one). From this BrahmA,

Siva was born. Such greatest TRUTH was asserted by ThirumazhisaiAzhwAr .

Recite his pAsurams and get saved, Oh Mind!. Praise ThirumazhisaiAzhwAr's

Feet.

 

AchAryAs enjoy this AzhwAr's works, and address them as the sword

that has been taken out of its cover (from the waist band) to destroy

"other"

non- truthful, false notions and doctrines and to establish that

Sriya:pathih

Sriman NarayananE is Parathvam and AzhwAr has NOT still put the sword

back (since the false notion still lingers...!!).

 

Since the 1st pAsuram starts with "Naanmuganai", this work is called

"Naanmugan Thiruvandhaadhi (NMT in short).

 

1. naanmuganai NaaraayaNan padaitthaan* Naanmuganum/

thaan mugamaay sankaranaip padaitthaan * yaan mugamaay/

andhaadhi mElitaaRivitthEn aazhporuLaich*/

sindhaamaR koNmin neer thErndhu./

 

NarayaNan created BrahmA (naanmugan- four faced one); BrahmA

(thus became the instrument) and created the universe starting with

Sankaran. And this I have been blessed to announce in this most

important truth. Oh People! you all see, understand the truth in

this

and don't let it get out of your mind. MahOpanishad declares this

truth

that Narayanan is the One who cause of creation for all dEvAs

through

BrahmA whom He first created. (Thus, AzhwAr implies, "by getting

to

know the Creator, and the births of BrahmA and Sivan, you all can

get

rid of your future births".)

 

96. iniyaRindhEn eesaRkum naanmugaRkum deivam/

inyaRindhEn Emperumaan unnai- iniyaRindhEn/

kaaRaNan nee; kaRRavai nee; kaRpavai nee- naRkirisai

naaraNan nee; nangu aRindhEn naan/

 

(A LOVELY pAsuram! An assertive POSITIVE Truth strongly given

to us by the One who had searched everywhere; went into Saivism,

Buddhism, Jainism, etc.. and was initiated by pEyAzhwAr; He has

blessed us with these GREATEST TRUTHS AND HIS FINAL VERDICT.

Let us HAVE NO DOUBTS AT ALL FOR HE HAS DONE A THOROUGH

RESEARCH ON OTHER SECTS TOO! And found the Ultimate

Parathvam in Sriman Narayanan!)

 

EmperumaanE! I have now known about You, who is the Lord of BrahmA

and Sivan; who is my Lord also; (Swami Sri Ramanuja says: akila

jagadh Swami;

asmath Swamin; - akila jagan maatharam; asmath maatharam);

who is the Cause of all worlds; who is the essence of all that has

been known;

all that we are going to know; who is Sriman Narayanan, the One who

is so

merciful to protect (us), without expecting anything (from us);

(You have such Grandest Most auspicious attributes with You!); -

All of these knowledge- I HAVE NOW (BEEN BLESSED WITH).

 

ESSENCE OF NAANMUGAN THIRUVANDHAADHI:

 

ThirumazhisaiAzhwAr, who is the disciple of pEyAzhwAr- has firmly

established

the truth, that Sriman Narayanan ALONE is the Para tatvam; There is no other

god;

who can be equal to Him; (why to talk about superior to Him?) SarvEshawaran

Sriya: Pathi Sriman Narayanan alone is Cause of all worlds; and all

jIvAthmAs.

He is the antharyaami in all beings; and is the director of all their

efforts, nature,

state, etc..; Even BrahmA, Sivan and other dEvAs can NOT get to know of the

Vaibhavam of Sriman Narayanan. Sivan himself, had categorically told

MarkaNdEyar that he also pays his obeisance to Sriman Narayanan and Sriman

Narayanan alone can grant mOksham; Brahman, Sivan and all other demigods too

are protected by Sriman Narayanan alone.

 

AzhwAr also, tells about himself: I am blessed by the grace of Emperumaan

and am blessed with the correct knowledge (jnAnam); I am blessed to get

rid of all my future births and associated sorrows, by becoming His eternal

servant.

I will spend all my time singing in praise of Him alone and paying

obeisance

to Him as pastime; That is all what I want and that's enough for me;

Emperumaan,

out of His great love for me, had willingly come and has been residing in my

heart.

He also, shows Himself most gracefully at all DivyadEsams to bless me with

His darshan. I SHALL NEVER EVER WORSHIP ANY OTHER (IDHARA) DEVATHA,

who is yet another Jivan, mistaken as God by others.

 

 

>

> a c [sMTP:ac]

> Thursday, August 05, 1999 9:10 AM

> bhakti

> Re: Sri Vaishnava tradition

>

> Dear Sir,

>

> >First of all, please tell us your name so we can address you properly.

> >

>

> Please call me Al if you feel uncomfortable with "Dear Sir" or

> "Mr. C." as the very proper British often address each other ...

>

[Guest guest]

 

a c [sMTP:ac]

Wednesday, August 04, 1999 6:10 PM

bhakti

Re: Sri Vaishnava tradition

 

Dear Sir,

>First of all, please tell us your name so we can address you properly.

>

 

Please call me Al if you feel uncomfortable with "Dear Sir" or

"Mr. C." as the very proper British often address each other ...

>The issue is who is described as the Ultimate Reality in the Vedas, and

>whether anything else can compare to this Highest Power. Repeatedly,

>the shastras and our acharyas tell us that Sriman Narayana (Vishnu) is

>the Ultimate Reality, and that only Narayana, being the source of all

bliss,

>can confer the bliss of moksha to the aspirant.

>

 

I am currently reading books on basic Hinduism. Is there anything like

"Dancing With Siva" for westerners from a Vaishnavite perspective?

 

[Krishna Kalale] there are several such books "hinduism primer" by VN

gopala desikan which is available here in USA. Please contact

dileepan (parthasarathy dileepan) for this.

 

 

I'm dismayed you think Siva is just a second rate "tosser" , incapable of

conferring moksha -- what good is Siva to me if he can't do that? I'm

dismayed the Hindu religion might not agree with itself on fundamental

issues like whether God (by any other name) is capable of granting moksha.

[Krishna Kalale]

 

Your confusion regarding hinduism is natural. Hinduism does not

discriminate against foreigners. It confuses Hindus themselves! It is not

a simple religion, it is a way of life. In fact so is Buddhism with so

many divisions within it.

 

Didn't the Saivites, Sankara, etc. all read the same Vedas too? How, I

wonder, did all those brilliant pious souls miss something as important as

this? If the Vedic tradition is so ambiguous it leads to such entirely

different conclusions (ie. Siva is or isn't equal to Visnu) then what kind

of infallible guide can it be to me?

[Krishna Kalale]

Your views on Samkara is, I am afraid mistaken. Samkara was a Vaishnava.

Please read his Prasthana traya bhasya - in brihadaranyaka upanisad as well

as gita bhasya he has upheld that Antaryami ie. in dwelling lord is

Narayana unmistakably. Please note that books like "dancing with Siva"

etc. and that Hawwaian vedanta center - even though it publishes "hinduism

today" - a news paper is only one view of Hinduism which is a collection of

views. ( Please see the fine print therei in *hinduism today paper* which

reads " as practiced by a saiva tradition belonging to tirujnana sambandar

of south india". This is only one of the 4 dozen views of Hinduism and the

name of this news paper is a MISNOMER or at best improper.

 

Please don't think I'm complaining about you or your tradition because I'm

not. I'm complaining about my difficulty trying to assess what is and

isn't essential and I know that's my problem not anyone else. Just try to

imagine how this all might seem to someone encountering it for the first

time and don't loose patience -- I'm trying my best.

[Krishna Kalale]

 

Patience my friend, you need to talk to someone instead of emailing on

this net for a hundred times just to get more confused. email is not a

good communication method, but it is cheap. Remember the old way, one

should access a guru and sit down and enquire. upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninah tatva darsinaha.

P.S.

I have only limited internet access so it's hard for me to read your

archives but i have enquired about Ramanuja's commentary on the Gita from a

cheaper source than Amazon.com

[Krishna Kalale]

 

You can get "Ramanuja on Gita" by SS raghavachar from vivekananda vedanta

center in Hyde park chicago for just 3-4 dollars.

I guess you need to call 1-312-555-1212 for the actual telephone number.

Incidentally, there is also a book sri ramanuja on gita bhasya - by

adidevananda which is good too. Please read

 

"varadaraja panchasat" by Philloziat (a westerner) for proofs of supremacy

of vishnu over siva. In fact most of these arguments are on an archive

written by some folks of this bhakti list. Please contact mani for

archives. If you want to contact me for any further info you can email me

at kkalale1. If you want me to call you, I may call you if you

send your telephone, at my convenience, provided you are in US.

 

adiyen Krishna Kalale

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

>aalOtya sarva saasthrANi vichaaryascha puna: puna: /

>idham yEkam sunishparNam dhyEyO nArAyaNas sadhaa:

>(Sage VyAsA "I have carried out all research in all saashtrAs; >I have

done

 

Can you give a reference for this?

>Even for Sankaracharyas (Kanchi), they utter Narayana smaraNam, >and never

says

>Siva is greater..

 

They wouldn't assert either to be the greater and would hold that both are

ultimately non-different, is it not?

>The Purusha sUktham says: anthar bhahithschathassarvam vyApya >nArAyaNas

sthithah:

 

This is from the nArAyaNa sUktam (also part of the mahAnArAyaNa upanishad),

not the purusha sUktam, I think.

 

Regards,

Ganesh.

 

 

FREE Email for ALL! Sign up at http://www.mail.com

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. Al:

 

I agree with Sriman Mani Varadarajan. There are three philosophys. One is

Shankara's philosophy which is Advaitha, Ramanuja philosophy which is

VisitAdvaitha primarily which is discussed here, & third philosophy is

Madhwa philosophy. I am a MAdhwa. Even MAdhwas truely believe that Sriman

NArayana is a Ultimate reality & only He can give moksha. There are few

details like (Taratamya) status of Gods & jivas like us is not discussed in

Ramanuja philosophy.

 

In Madhwa philosophy, it is further discussed that there is no one equal to

Vishnu, who is greater than Vishnu. Lakshmi comes next in the line. And

other gods come later like Brahma, Vayu being Brahma elect, Saraswathi,

Bharathi (VAyu's wife), only then comes Garuda, Rudra & Shesha. Shiva is

one of the aspects of Rudra. Purandara DAsaru says in the song chandra

chooda Siva shankara parvathi ramana ninege namo namo. In one of the

verses of that song, he says Siva is a parama vaishnava & is the greatest

devotee of Mahavishnu who always keeps chanting Rama taraka mantra to

Parvathi devi. In our MAdhwa tradition, it is told that even if you

worship Lakshmidevi, the Jagan MAta alone, She will give blessings only if

we worship Mahavishnu.

 

It works this way. For everyone of us, we have some Supreme God we worship

who is permanent. Next comes is the President of the country, name it

Clinton. Mrs Clinton becomes the first lady. Likewise, we call Mahavishnu

& Lakshmi as Supreme God & Goddess. Then we call Brahma who is the creator

of the Universe with the blessings of Mahavishnu. He becomes the president

& Saraswathi who is the VAgdevi who becomes the first lady. Then in

Clinton's administration, there are many ministers he appoints. Likewise,

Brahma appoints Sungod to give light, heat, energy etc, Indra to give rain

etc the lists goes on. So, when the Brahma's term of 100 years is over,

then Brahma's elect, VAyu becomes the next Brahma & he chooses his devatas

like when Clinton leaves office, all his ministers leave with him & the

next President chosses his own. What I am bring out the point is MAdhwas

believe that there can be only one Supreme God, He is Mahavishnu who is

Perfect & next comes Mahalakshmi. Both are permanent. Brahma, Vayu,

Garuda, Rudra, Shesha & others are also jivas & different from each other &

they are all great devotees of Mahavishnu. We know of the fact that

MahAbali is Indra elect which is told in Vamana Avatara story. Likewise,

all the devatas like Rudra, Shesha, Garuda, Sun, Moon, Indra etc (the lists

just goes on & on leaving none) will change status after their period. I do

not want to write this in detail, these are not discussed in Ramanuja

philosophy.

 

Lastly, we worship Sriman Narayana, Mahashiva or other Gods' for Bhakthi

sake & not for any material comforts. So, whoever you worship with great

devotion, it reaches Sriman Narayana.

 

With services to Shri Hari,

 

Shobha Srinivasan

[Guest guest]

Dear (Sir) Al C,

 

Your predicament is very understandable and in fact a requisite for

attaining "true" knowledge. Only a person desperately in seek of

knowledge is a true student. Also, this kind of predicament is almost

natural with students of VEdAnta in particular and the Indian systems

of philosophy in general.

 

You wrote:

> I'm dismayed you think Siva is just a second rate

> "tosser" , incapable of

> conferring moksha -- what good is Siva to me if he

> can't do that?

> I'm

> dismayed the Hindu religion might not agree with

> itself on fundamental

> issues like whether God (by any other name) is

> capable of granting moksha.

> Didn't the Saivites, Sankara, etc. all read the same

> Vedas too? How, I

> wonder, did all those brilliant pious souls miss

> something as important as

> this? If the Vedic tradition is so ambiguous it

> leads to such entirely

> different conclusions (ie. Siva is or isn't equal to

> Visnu) then what kind

> of infallible guide can it be to me?

 

One e-mail or even a couple of them may not quench your insatiable urge

to know and realize the truth. So, I suggest you have both

perseverence and patience in seeking answers in a subject that has been

argued upon for millennia and commented on by hundreds of pious souls.

RAmAnuja himself has referred to over a dozen upaniSads, the vEdAnta

sUtras, the bhagawad geeta, the sAtvika purANas, the mahAbhArata, the

rAmAyaNa, Alvar's Divya prabandham, the Agamas, and dharma sAstras to

name but a few reference material to arrive at the conclusion he has.

And he showed that there is a way, the visiStAdvaitic way of

interpreting the content of these scriptures that resolves all

"apparent" internal contradictions and provides a smooth-sailing

solution to the problem of bondage. So, it might take some time before

one can grasp the magnitude of the issue.

 

Your questions on the paratva (the Highest Entity), on who the true

bestower of moksha is, and several other things have no simple answers.

They are not simple because they (the answers) should lead to

conviction, and conviction is achieved through practice, and that

requires a great deal of time and effort. We, mortal souls, cannot

arrive at those answers that easily. We can see truth only through the

eyes of a sadAcArya - an exponent free from biases and reservations and

who has himself been blessed by the Almighty. So, if you are truly

interested in the “truth” you have to find an AcArya - one who has

examined all the sAstras objectively, and one who has practised what he

has found to be true. Books may be a good start but will just not cut

it in the long run. You need a sentient being at the other end to

clarify your questions, to correct your mistakes, and to lead you in

the right path.

 

"The path to glory is rough,

and many gloomy hours obscure it."

-- Black Hawk, Sauk, 1833

 

-- sarvam sree krsNArpaNam

 

muraLi kaDAmbi

 

 

___________

 

Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Al,

>

>I am currently reading books on basic Hinduism. Is there anything like

>"Dancing With Siva" for westerners from a Vaishnavite perspective?

>

 

There are many books on the subject of Vaishnavam, But for starters

I would recommend "A dialogue on Hinduism" which gives a very

basic outline of Vaishnavam, in particular the Sri Vaishnava

Philosophy and Theology. A more philosophical work is by

Sri S. M. S. Chari "Vaishnavam" published by Motilal Banarsidas

publications, available from Vedanta Book Store in San Francisco.

>I'm dismayed you think Siva is just a second rate "tosser" , incapable

of

>conferring moksha -- what good is Siva to me if he can't do that? I'm

>dismayed the Hindu religion might not agree with itself on fundamental

>issues like whether God (by any other name) is capable of granting

moksha.

 

The term Hindu religion is, in my opinion, is a western term and

has no real roots in India. If you look at ancient India, there

were three main religions, Vishnavam, Shaivam, shakta. They have

their own temples, and you can rarely see shiva's idol in

Vishnu's temple and vice versa (there are exceptions here, but

you can take that as a general fact). If you pay close attention

to each of these traditions, they all believe in one Supreme GOD.

 

>Didn't the Saivites, Sankara, etc. all read the same Vedas too?

 

Yes, But the alignment of Saivaites with shankara's philosophy

came much later. In fact it due to the theological emphasis of

Ramanuja, that prompted the Saivaites in Tamil Nadu and other

southern states to align with Shankar Mutts. The Saiva Siddanata

in South evolved after the writing of Alvars and their papularity

started to increase. BTW, the TIME almanac says that out of 786

Million Hindus, in India, 70% are vaishnavaites, 25% are saivaites

and rest are neo-hindus and reform Hindus.

 

I myself was under the impression that all three, Vishnu, Siva

and brahma are equal. This is true for many who believe that

tollerance is nothing but belief in equality among Gods. Which

is not what our Acharyas say.

 

The Advaitic followers agree that Vishnu is the Supreme GOD.

The main difference between followers of Sankara and Ramanuja

is the relationship between the Supreme and the Jiva (soul),

which then leads to a complete list (about 60 according to

Swami Desika) of flaws with the Advaitic position.

 

 

>How, I

>wonder, did all those brilliant pious souls miss something as important

as

>this? If the Vedic tradition is so ambiguous it leads to such

entirely

>different conclusions (ie. Siva is or isn't equal to Visnu) then what

kind

>of infallible guide can it be to me?

>

 

As I mentioned earlier, it is a corrupted view that Hinduism is

a three GOD theological system that supports equality among the

three. IT IS PLAINLY NOT TRUE. Hinduism is a western term to

collectively refer to a group of people who have almsot similar

cultural practices.

>Please don't think I'm complaining about you or your tradition because

I'm

>not. I'm complaining about my difficulty trying to assess what is and

>isn't essential and I know that's my problem not anyone else. Just try

to

>imagine how this all might seem to someone encountering it for the

first

>time and don't loose patience -- I'm trying my best.

 

Yes, I totally agree with you. A whole lot, I mean millions, in

India are confused about this (I can say that I was one of them,

until i go into the bhakti list and started talking about the

philosophy and theology with my father). So you are not the only

one, and you will not be the last one.

 

All I can say that, please talk to some one in your area on

vaishnavam as preached by Ramanuja (All other vaishnava schools

have taken off, in some ways, from Ramanuja's teachings).

 

Also, I am not, in anyway dis-respecting siva, or ganaesha or

any other secondary GODs. Iam just upset with the political

correctness that has come to dominate the basics of the

vaishnava religion.

 

 

 

 

 

Venkatesh K. Elayavalli Cypress Semiconductor

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