Murugan and thirumangai aazhvaar

[Guest guest]

K. Srinivasan (srini) wrote:

 

* Badri quotes:

* Elsewhere, (in the book "The smile of Murugan - On Tamil

* literature of South India by K.Zvelebil, pp 229) I saw the

* following footnote:

*

* A strange story (in Kuruparampara pirapavam, ed.

* K.Kirusnamacariyar, 1909) maintains that Civavakkiyar the

* siddha converted to Vaisnavism and became one of the

* greatest Vaisnava poets under the name Tirumalicai

* Alvar.

*

* Here is some more food for thought.

 

I am not sure if KS is making fun of me or K.Zvelebil or

K.Kirusnamacariyar or the person(s) who wrote the Guruparampara

Prabhavam:-)

 

But, in any case, it is easy to disprove the following claim!

 

'kali yuga varadhan' is not a name given to Murugan (especially

the 'varadhan' part. In any case, kaliyan & kali yuga varadhan

have nothing in common meaningwise. Who is the celestial person

who married Thirumangai?

 

====

 

The Guruparampara Prabhavam mentions that thiru mazhisai

aazhvaar was born about 30,000 years (??) before, sometimes in

the Dvapara Yuga.

 

Claims like this do not stand rigorous tests as the language

style employed in the verses proves things otherwise.

 

There is a general tendency among Indians to make things old

and hoary so as to make it "more respectable"! What is

important is the message itself and not when it was written

down or in what language it was written down.

 

Scholars like PT Srinivasa Aiyengar (who is a Tamilologist)

believe that the 12 aazhvaars had a continuous tradition going

down all the way up to Sriman Naadhamuni. PTS believes that

Nammaazhvaar directly taught Naadhamuni and Nammaazhvaar

himself was a student of Thiru Mangai aazhvaar.

 

Naadhamuni might have learnt about Nammazhvaar through the

paasuram he heard in thirukkudandhai and went in search of him,

found him in kurukoor and learnt from him all the paasurams (or

what was extant at that time) directly.

 

Guruparampara Prabhavam (which is quite sectarian as can be

witnessed from the two versions, one each for VK & TK) contain

a little real history and rest all nonsensical myths and should

be taken with pounds of salt.

 

--badri

 

-----------------

S.Badrinarayanan

Graduate Student

Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering

Cornell University

-----------------

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:51:41 -0500 K Srinivasan said:

>

>

>Murugan is a celestial person and gets married the daughter of a tribal chief.

>thirumangai is a tribal chief and gets married to a celestial person.

>

>Could they have been the same person?

>

 

 

Assuming that you are not talking of Murgan reincarnating

as Thirumangai, and that you are willing to accept dates

accepted by scholars, religeous and otherwise, we can

say that the answer to the question is NO. Murugan is

characterized as an independent diety in paripaadal centuries

before Thirumangai mannan's time.

 

The naayanmaar that Varadhan mentions is Thirungyanasambandhar.

It seems this incidence is of questionable validity. Why

the aazhvaar is portrayed with a vEl and not a vaaL as in

"vaaL valiyaal mandhirangoL," I would like to know.

 

Civavaakiyar for Thirumazhisai is mentioned only in LIFCO.

The life story of this aazhvaar appeared in Sri N. Priya

sometime back. While it contained many details, did not

mention anything about Civavaakyar. The introduction to

4000 in etext perhaps needs a rewrite.

 

It looks like the paasuram Badri quoted is quite difficult to

decipher. The only commentary I have of TCV simply

skipped this paasuram asking the reader to approach

knowledgeable people and understand! I am trying to get more

information, if I get it I shall post. BTW, TCV is full

of such intricate paasurams where aazhvaar plays with

numbers.

 

The next aazhvaar thirunakshathram is that of Thirumazhisai

MazhisaivandhajOthi, thai magam, sometime in February 96.

 

 

-- Dileepan

[Guest guest]

Badri quotes:

Elsewhere, (in the book "The smile of Murugan - On Tamil

literature of South India by K.Zvelebil, pp 229) I saw the

following footnote:

 

A strange story (in Kuruparampara pirapavam, ed.

K.Kirusnamacariyar, 1909) maintains that Civavakkiyar the

siddha converted to Vaisnavism and became one of the

greatest Vaisnava poets under the name Tirumalicai

Alvar.

 

Here is some more food for thought.

 

thirumangai was born on karthikai month karthikai star and is "karthikEyan"

Murugan is also "karthikEyan".

 

thirumangai is "kaliyan", Murugan is "kali yuga varadhan".

 

Both carry vEl. I suppose one can call thirumangai as "vElan."

 

Murugan is a celestial person and gets married the daughter of a tribal chief.

thirumangai is a tribal chief and gets married to a celestial person.

 

Could they have been the same person?

 

Srinivasan K

[Guest guest]

>badri (Badrinarayanan Seshadri)

>

>I am not sure if KS is making fun of me or K.Zvelebil or

>K.Kirusnamacariyar or the person(s) who wrote the Guruparampara

>Prabhavam:-)

>

>But, in any case, it is easy to disprove the following claim!

>

>Badrinarayanan

 

Let there be no doubt what so ever that I am making fun or putting

anybody down. Authority or amateur. That has never been my intention

any time. I did not anticipate that associating Murugan with thirumangai,

and thus making "murugan" as an amsam of Lord Vishnu should

offend anybody.

[Even if one already had a conclusive proof that it is impossible].

 

I have no problem in admitting what Kamil Zvebil says based on

his vast knowledge. Same goes for most erudites who quote a

"lot of references".

 

It was only a speculation.

 

I had also speculated elsewhere that Sri Venkatewara, Murugan,

Ayyappan could have been humans. Due to various reasons, they were

deified by their followers. Then later associated with appropriate

deities of the Hindu mythology. Same thing with others

like madhurai veeran, ellamma etc. who are considered very powerful,

by their followers today.

In recent history, Sri Ramanuja has been linked to AdisEshan.

 

Srinivasan K

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 28 Dec 95 12:38:32 EST Badri asked:

>

>

Who is the celestial person who married Thirumangai?

>

 

 

The LIFCO publication says a deva maadhu by the

name of Sumangalai was cursed by Kabila munivar and had

to come down to this earth and marry a human.

Since Sumangalai apologized for making fun of his

pupil's bad looks, Kabilar granted her to be born as

a bhakathai and fulfill the task of wooing Thirumangai

from a life of a warrior into a life of devotion.

Thus, it seems, Kumudhavalli Naachchiyaar came to this

earth. In any case, the life story of this

aazhvaar and that of our achaaryaa Sri Ramanuja

illustrate the importance of spousal approval for

a successful life of piety!

 

 

-- Dileepan

[Guest guest]

On Dec 28, 12:38pm, Badrinarayanan Seshadri wrote:

> Scholars like PT Srinivasa Aiyengar (who is a Tamilologist)

> believe that the 12 aazhvaars had a continuous tradition going

> down all the way up to Sriman Naadhamuni. PTS believes that

> Nammaazhvaar directly taught Naadhamuni and Nammaazhvaar

> himself was a student of Thiru Mangai aazhvaar.

 

There is not much historical evidence for this speculation.

What is more probable is that the 12 aazhvaars were part of

a larger, informal, Vaishnava bhakti tradition. Only the

poetry of these 12 has survived, perhaps because they were

the best and most memorable.

 

Modern research as well as tradition tells us that Thirumangai

aazhvaar came after Nammaazhvaar. Dr. Friedhelm Hardy believes

that there is internal evidence in their respective poetry that

indicates this. The traditional biographies also tell us that

Thirumangai established the worship of Nammaazhvaar in several

places. It is probable that this tradition is based on some

facts.

 

All accounts indicate that Nammaazhvaar was a very philosophical

sage who did not participate much in worldly affairs. I tend

to think that other than Madhurakavi and a few other immediate

disciples, upon his passing, not many people knew about his poetry.

These disciples may have spread it to a certain extent, but I am

quite certain that Sri Nathamunigal had an extremely hard time

recovering the paasurams. I think it likely that Nathumuni

spent much of his life going from village to village searching

for Vaishnavite Tamil poems. He may have met Madhurakavi Azhvaar

or his disciple (one Parankusa Daasan) in the course of his journeys.

The chronology is so uncertain that we cannot say for sure.

I doubt, however, that he ever met Nammaazhvaar in person.

> Guruparampara Prabhavam (which is quite sectarian as can be

> witnessed from the two versions, one each for VK & TK) contain

> a little real history and rest all nonsensical myths and should

> be taken with pounds of salt.

 

Actually, the so-called Thengalai Guruparampara Prabhavam

is not really Thengalai per se, as it was written by Pinpazhagiya

Perumal Jiyar, a disciple of Periyavaacchaan Pillai, before

Vedanta Desika's rise to prominence. In general, it is a

non-sectarian account of Sri Vaishnava history.

 

The other Guruparampara Prabhavam was written several centuries

later by the 3rd Brahmatantra Svatantra Jiyar of Parakala

Mutt and contains many more views characteristic of the

Vadagalai viewpoint.

 

Mani

[Guest guest]

K Srinivasan wonders if Thirumangai Azhwar and Murugan could be the

same person. Devas are posts and are occupied by one or more person

during the period of a Kalpa. All the Azhwars' permanent duties are

as ornaments or weapons of Narayana. E.g Kulasekara Azhwar is the

Kaustabha jewel. I do not have references here to detail who exactly

Thirumangai Azhwar is. I vaguely remember Him being the Vanamala

garland. They are therefore not in contact with Karma. If they

descend into the leela vibhuti of the Lord (i.e. all the lokas

controlled by this and other Brahmas), it is only to fulfil

Narayana's purpose. Per Sri Vedanta Desikar all the Devatas right

upto Shiva and Brahma, are in Karma and are subject to the sway of

Triguna. It is therefore unlikely that Murugan and Thirumangai

Azhwar could be the same person.

 

But I have also heard that Narayana can select a surrendered soul to

be a Brahma. In the Ramayana it is stated that Hanuman will be the

next Brahma at the end of the lifetime of this Brahma. For this

reason I will not on the basis of RTS alone be able to say

unequivocally that they cannot be the same person. But because of

what RTS says we will have to know from scripture that Thirumangai

Azhwar or Perumal's vanamala or whatever His original position is,

took birth as Murugan before that conclusion can be drawn. That will

have to answered by someone who has read all the Puranas, Itihasas

etc.

 

Jaganath.