Real Yoga

[Guest guest]

"If you take practice, practice, practice--ninety-nine percent practice,

one-percent theory, automatically you will get mind control; then, union with

the Atman (soul)." KPJ

[Guest guest]

You mean I can't just look at photos of Gurujis workshop on the web, and keep up

to date via other peoples first hand accounts? And what about omprem and shining

skulls good advice?

[Guest guest]

As Guy Donahaye already said, having a personal

practice is most important. But I for one am also glad if

someone takes the trouble to make some pictures from

Guruji's world tour, so that I can get at least an idea of

it by looking at the photos on the Web - especially

since I don't have the opportunity to go to Guruji's

workshops myself.<br><br>I also say Thank You to Cynxir,

Malsag, Sidhe and the others who cared to report from the

workshops in Helsinki and New York City.<br><br>So this is

why I am happy to have this message board here, where

everyone can find as well as provide information on the

practice, say their own view - and, why not, also try to

help.

[Guest guest]

guydonahaye<br><br>Yes, but what do you practice?

Asana and pranayama alone are never going to give union

with the atman. <br><br>Add in a meditation practice

along with a practice of self-inquiry, discrimination

and detachment. Have a continuous practice in the

virtues of eradicating desire, restraint, equinimity,

faith in God and guru, and a deep yearning for

spiritual liberation. Then, you will eventually have union

with the atman.<br><br>Remember 'Ashtanga' means

'eight limbs' and refers to Patanjali's Eight Limbs of

Yoga. Asana-pranayama are only 2 of those 8

limbs.<br><br>Your quote means that having an awareness of all of

the 8 limbs, i.e. the ashtanga, of yoga is a

necessary start but that only through implementing and

continuously practicing all of them does union with the atman

occur.<br><br>omprem

[Guest guest]

Ashtanga yoga is meditation in motion and

incorporates all angas within each anga. Yoga by definition

being unity can not be divided. When you do violence to

your body by using your ego during asana practice you

learn the first yama...and by continuing to practice

you learn all about surrender bramhacharya and the

rest...the systems of thought and philosophies are only

designed to take you beyond attachment to systems of

thought and to liberate your mind.

[Guest guest]

ahh...correct.

[Guest guest]

>>You can make your own choice about what

your priorities are but be mindful that any form of

hatha yoga will, by itself, not lead to spiritual

libetion.<<<br><br>True. But Astanga Yoga holds to the belief that without

a devoted practice of the asana postures, according

to the rules and in the prescribed order, you will

never be able to achieve anything in yoga, let alone

'spiritual liberation'.<br><br>It is through the discipline

and practice of Asana, together with the observance

of ujjayi breath, that aspirants learn to understand

the importance of breath control, and begin to

experience clarity of mind.<br><br>It is through the

practice of Asana that aspirants learn that all the moral

codes of Yama must be observed in their relationship

with themselves in order to relate in the same way to

the outside world. <br><br>It is through the practice

of Asana that aspirants begin to regulate their

breath, thereby finding some clarity of thought, to

achieve purification both physically as well as

spiritually (niyama).<br><br>It is through the practice of

Asana that the aspirant gains strength, health and

stamina, since "it is, after all, not possible to practice

the limbs and sub-limbs of yama and niyama when the

body and sense organs are weak and haunted by

obstacles" (YOGA MALA).<br><br>It is through the practice of

Asana that the aspirant begins to learn how to equalize

inhalation and exhaltion, and how to sychronise movement to

breath; through the constant concentration on the flow of

the breath, the mind is focused - the beginning of

Pranayama, Pratyahara and Dharana. <br><br>Throughout the

practice of the sequence of postures, the thread of the

breath is unbroken, thereby becoming, in effect, a

meditation in motion.<br><br>"Yogi Sri K Pattabhi Jois often

says 'Do your practice and all is coming'. He does not

mean that enlightenment will just happen if you

practise; he is advising that once the seed has been

planted, it has to be tended daily, nurtured, and watered

through the discipline of regular practice. As a result

of devoted practice, insights sprout from within,

and an understanding of the tree of yoga begins to

grow. The eight limbs become the tool with which to

work the soil. But only if students follow the correct

practice method will the tree grow to maturity." - John

Scott: Ashtanga Yoga (page 17).

[Guest guest]

The asanas may change and if your mind changes

too then you are attached to the physical

configuration of your body...and not ready for liberation from

it. This is where I find myself and undoubtably all

readers including yourself find themselves. Evolution

towards seedless samadhi is a long journey we are

travelling together over many lifetimes. For now Yoga brings

happiness, health and an evolution towards better things,

but liberation is still far off from us.

[Guest guest]

"For now Yoga brings happiness, health and an evolution towards better things,

but liberation is still far off from us."<br><br>Amen, brother! There is

nothing more I can say.<br><br>Homer

[Guest guest]

"Yes, through asana and pranayama you can achieve

dharana or one-pointedness, dhyana or continuous

attention to the body and even, samadhi or complete

absorption in the body. But this samyama (the bringing

together of dharana, dhyana and samadi on one object) in

this case, the body, will only bring deeper and deeper

understanding of the body. It does not bring about moksha or

spiritual liberation."<br><br>... and you "know" this

through your personal experience of having achieved

spiritual liberation, or through having read it in a book?

<br><br>(Oops, sorry, should have read the rest of your message,

from which the answer to my question becomes clear)

[Guest guest]

shiny<br><br><<True. But Astanga Yoga holds

to the belief that without a devoted practice of the

asana postures, according to the rules and in the

prescribed order, you will never be able to achieve anything

in yoga, let alone 'spiritual

liberation'.>><br><br>My original statement was that asana - pranayama are

essential parts of Raja Yoga but that they are only two of

the eight aspects of Raja Yoga and we need to focus

on and practice on the other six as well. Apparently

you agree with this.<br><br>I agree with your above

statement up to a point. That point is that each approach

to hatha yoga, i.e. ashtanga vinyasa, sivananda,

kripalu, integral, iyengar, kundalini, etc. has been

constructed by the originator to apply to people of a

particular psychology and karmic load.<br><br>But Richard

Freeman reminds us in a recent talk in Ottawa, Canada

that harm can come to those who do not have the

specific psychological and karmic makeup for which a

particular approach to karma yoga was designed.<br><br>I

agree without reservation with, “It is through the

practice of Asana that aspirants learn that all the moral

codes of Yama must be observed in their relationship

with themselves in order to relate in the same way to

the outside world.”<br><br>And I agree with, “It is

through the practice of Asana that the aspirant gains

strength, health and stamina, since "it is, after all, not

possible to practice the limbs and sub-limbs of yama and

niyama when the body and sense organs are weak and

haunted by obstacles" (YOGA MALA).”<br><br>And I think

that you agree that hatha yoga is essential, but there

are other practices that must be considered as well.

Look at how you qualify your comments on hath yoga:

“begin to experience clarity of mind”; “begin to

regulate their breath, thereby finding some clarity of

thought, to achieve purification”; “begins to learn how to

equalize inhalation and exhaltion...the beginning of

Pranayama, Pratyahara and Dharana.”. You seem to be implying

that hatha yoga is an essential beginning but that

other practices must be includede in one’s sadhana if

one is to attain spiritual liberation,<br><br>Your

quote from John Scott is somewhat ambiguous but it also

seems to imply that hatha yoga is necessary for an

aprreciation of the all of the eight aspects of raja yoga and

that other practices are also a necessary part of

one’s sadhana.<br><br>For reasons already stated in my

last post, I will disagree with your claim,

“Throughout the practice of the sequence of postures, the

thread of the breath is unbroken, thereby becoming, in

effect, a meditation in motion.”<br><br>But that area of

disagree is not so much now, is it?<br><br>omprem

[Guest guest]

guy<br><br>If spiritual liberation is your main

focus, you cut down on the number of life-times needed

to attain it by following some of the other

practices recommended by Patanjali in addition to asana -

pranayama.<br><br>omprem

[Guest guest]

The means to attain the ultimate goal in yoga are

many - this is why in the first place there are so

many different yoga styles to choose from. It's up to

the guru, in this case Sri K Pattabhi Jois, to

recommend the means with which to reach the goal. Astanga

Yoga is a tried and tested system with clear rules. It

is up to us to follow the rules and to put them into

practice.<br><br>In order to achieve anything, yoga must be done

systematically, by following a certain order as well as complying

with the rules laid down by the guru - otherwise

confusion will result. If you are a beginner in Astanga

Yoga, your duty is to start with the practice of the

third limb of Patanjali's yoga system, i.e. Asana, in

the given order; it is on this that you should

concentrate your mind and your efforts in the first instance,

and on nothing else. Other steps may follow, but only

if you are ready.<br><br>For most astanga

practitioners however, just doing the primary series (Yoga

Chikitsa) may be enough, since the benefits derived from it

- physically, mentally, spiritually - are immense.

[Guest guest]

Who has "moksha" anyway, and how do we verify

that? <br><br>Who has this liberation? If anyone does,

did they get it by sitting in mediation one fine

day?<br><br>It's easy to look at the concepts of how Yoga is

supposed to work, but all this is dashed by the reality

that our ideals about "moksha" are by and large just a

fantasy.<br><br>I think Guy's POV is much healthier, practical and

realistic -- all of our practice is an expression of

liberation, Now.<br><br>Now. Not in the future.

[Guest guest]

<<Who has "moksha" anyway>><br><br>i do! it's very

nice.<br><br>...sometimes though, i think i might trade it all for a big

chocolate milk shake. mmmm, milk shake...<br><br>m

[Guest guest]

shiny<br><br>I agree with your post.<br><br> But

I also urge those who believe that the benefits

from doing the primary series are so immense that they

don't have to do anything else to think again. As good

as those benefits are, they are just the beginning.

The rest comes from incorporating a meditation

practice into your sadhana and not from moving on to

series 2, 3, etc.<br><br>omprem

[Guest guest]

Omprem - do you know this from personal experience? Have you completed the

primary, intermediate and advanced series of ashtanga yoga?

[Guest guest]

Shiny and guy<br><br>This seems a good time to

end this topic. It has been a thoughtful and

articulate exchange of views accompanied by a few kibitzers.

The three of us have made our points and mostly agree

with each other.<br><br>So continue with your hatha

yoga practices and just keep in mind that there are

other aspects of raja yoga awaiting you when you feel

ready for them.<br><br>omprem