AT ALL...

June 11, 2001

Will someone please say why being able to do

deeper backbends and open up hips more and all the other

things you do in yoga is so good for you? I mean, for

example, Allan was probably in really good shape because

he was so athletic - rock climbing and all that

stuff... and it also involves meditation and concentration

and mental discipline like yoga, only now he has

really tight sholders so he couldn't do backbends - is

he better off now becasue he can do backbends? Does

that mean he is less healthy than if he had tight

sholders and a tight back? Am I better off now because I

can get both my feet behind my head in supta

kurmasana? I couldn't do that a year ago. Now I can. Big

Whoop. WHooptie-doo. I can put my feet behind my head.

Sitting in lotus is no problema. The truth is I am quite

satisfied with myself for it, but it just a shallow, idle

thing to be pleased with it... what are the long-term

ramifications of this? Am I more healthy now because I can do

this? Is Allan more healthy now because he can do urdva

dhanurasana? What is it? What am I working toward? You see,

I see bodies everywhere that are fat and stiff and

locked in position. To me, it looks like death. But the

people in those bodies seem perfectly happy and seem to

prefer being that way. The idea of excercise or physical

movement is like anathema to them. Some of them don't seem

sick at all, just fat and stiff. So what's the deal?

FBL

June 11, 2001

FBL, Thanks for your thought provoking

post! I'm no expert, but here are my

thoughts: We can both abuse and disuse our bodies. I

originally came to yoga because of abuse of mine. I was a

runner for about 30 years. At one time I went 2 years

without missing a day. Ran marathons and averaged about 5

mi/day during that 2-yr period. I could barely walk up

and down stairs, because I was so stiff and my knees

were sore. I think that qualifies as abuse. Yoga

allowed me to regain a healthy body. I have given up

running entirely because it interferes with padmasana

(and vice versa). I've read, recently, that yoga

restores our bodies to their natural flexibility and

(balanced) strength. Watching my 2yr old granddaughter

drives that home. Perhaps Alan's tight shoulders and

back were not abuse. Disuse seems to be

different. Last week a friend and I were talking about some

of our former coworkers who were dying. We were

trying to figure out what age people who don't take care

of themselves (Over eat, over drink, &

underexercize) start to fall apart. I think many of them were

comfortable in their oversized, stiff bodies, because they

couldn't remember any different or figured it was just a

normal aging process. So the bottom line for me -

yoga may make the body healthy so that we may minimize

our physical limitations in order to transend them.

It's not absolutely necessary to minimize physical

limitations as many people with disabilities can teach us.

But, making our bodies healthy can be very good

especially since it appears to part of the yogic

path. Namaste, Jim

June 11, 2001

FBL One virtue of flexibility is that

prana flows more easily. The tighter one is anywhere,

less prana flows in that area. As you know,

flexibility means that ligaments have been kept pliable thus

heading off all manner of physcial problems -- aches and

pains in the head, neck, shoulders, arms and back --

not to mention the sheer joy of being able to move,

lift, dance and run or the benefit to the internal

organs from performing those asanas that lead to

flexibility. But, your question seems to be whether there is an

additional benefit from doing the more extreme asanas other

than flexibility, physical health, mental health and

maintenance of the chakra-nadi system. One can indeed

question whether the time spent, say in advancing beyond

Level 3 or 4 could be better spent in developing the

sattvic guna by spending more time in samyama on more

esoteric and transcendental factors or even on one's

application of the yamas. Those fat and stiff people

you mentioned who seem happy and have no inclination

to exercise, just have a dominant tamas guna that

inclines them to be easy-going and slow, even lethargic

and resistant to change. They may be as happy as pigs

in mud but spiritually they are still pigs in mud.

But, hey, santosha is one of the niyamas too. And who

cares how the journey is as long as you are on the

right path and don't spend too much time in the

inn. Spiritually, the endeavour should always be to move first

beyond tamas, then beyond rajas, and even beyond sattva.

How one does that and what what rate depends on their

karmic constitution.

June 11, 2001

What good & interesting questions. >Is

Allan more healthy now because he can do urdva

dhanurasana? Er, yes. It certainly feels like it. I'm

probably not as strong & fit in some limited ways - being

able to walk uphill quickly carrying a big pack, being

able pull hard on small fingerholds, etc etc - as I

was when I was 25. (Although even if I was still

climbing I probably still wouldn't be, because I'm not 25

any more) Now instead I can do headstands and urdhva

dhanurasana and (nearly, real soon now) jump back without my

feet touching the floor and as you so rightly say, big

deal. So what? From a purely physical point of

view, I think astanga yoga is healthier because it's

more balanced. Other activities let you play to your

strengths and avoid your weaknesses. In climbing I was

always better at things that required technique and a

cool head, and intimidated by steep stuff that called

for brute force. So I kind of believed that I could

climb up to a certain degree of difficulty - and I

could, but only if the climb in question was difficult

in one particular way and not in others. I made sure

my regular climbing partners were guys who were

better at the steep stuff, so that we could generally

count on being able to get each other out of situations

one way or another. The analogy with people who kid

themselves about their progress in yoga because they can do

a few carefully chosen "difficult" asanas should be

obvious. In primary series there's no hiding place -

everybody probably finds things in it when they start that

are easier and fun, and things that seem impossible

and ridiculous, but if you choose to stick with it

you have to work at it all every day, including the

impossible & ridiculous bits. And, to quote something you

quoted a while ago: "the places in the practice

that are not comfortable for you or that are less

enjoyable and that you tend to avoid are probably the areas

that, when practiced faithfully, will bring the most

growth and benefit." (continued)

June 11, 2001

FBL, Thanks for your thought provoking

post! I'm no expert, but here are my

thoughts: We can both abuse and disuse our bodies. I

originally came to yoga because of abuse of mine. I was a

runner for about 30 years. At one time I went 2 years

without missing a day. Ran marathons and averaged about 5

mi/day during that 2-yr period. I could barely walk up

and down stairs, because I was so stiff and my knees

were sore. I think that qualifies as abuse. Yoga

allowed me to regain a healthy body. I have given up

running entirely because it interferes with padmasana

(and vice versa). I've read, recently, that yoga

restores our bodies to their natural flexibility and

(balanced) strength. Watching my 2yr old granddaughter

drives that home. Perhaps Alan's tight shoulders and

back were not abuse. Disuse seems to be

different. Last week a friend and I were talking about some

of our former coworkers who were dying. We were

trying to figure out what age people who don't take care

of themselves (Over eat, over drink, & under

exercise) start to fall apart. I think many of them were

comfortable in their oversized, stiff bodies, because they

couldn't remember any different or figured it was just a

normal aging process. Those people might be amazed how

much better they would feel if they regained their

physical health. So the bottom line for me - yoga

may make the body healthy so that we may minimize our

physical limitations in order to transcend them. It's not

absolutely necessary to minimize physical limitations as

many people with disabilities can teach us. But,

making our bodies healthy can be very good especially

since it appears to part of the yogic

path. Namaste, Jim

June 11, 2001

Like you and the others replying, I'm another who

chose to focus on this yoga for my body's sake -- all

those other forms of "exercise" I enjoyed in my youth

weren't as pleasurable or possible as I approached

40. But what I got from FBL's post were the questions:

"how much, and why?" I have no idea if there

are any health benefits beyond 1st and 2nd series. I

believe KPJ said as much, that the lion's share of the

benefits are to be found in 1st...if I'm wrong about that,

or if anyone knows the exact quote, please correct

me on this. Practicing this yoga is an

integral part of my life, part of the larger practice of

Yoga that's made up other many other parts I'm

currently stumbling and bumbling through: pranayama,

meditation, prayer (help me find my car keys), some service

to others, intellectual nourishment (HBO),

"relationships." These are all separate part of my life,

yet integral..l like that word integral as it's used

by Ken Wilber in describing his approach to

spirituality (what a word, wish there was a better

one). Anyway, one of the things I like about this astanga

vinyasa yoga is the challenge. Just to be able to do what

you couldn't do yesterday is somehow enlivening in

itself. I dig it.

June 12, 2001

"Practicing yoga for the sake of one's health, a

firm body, or enjoyment is not the right approach.

Only the purification of the body, sense organs, and

mind, and the dedication of all actions and deeds to

the Almighty is the true way." Sri K. Pattabhi

Jois Yoga Mala pg.38

June 12, 2001

"What am I working toward?" But of course

you (and everybody else here) know the answer to this

question: enlightenment. Right? Asana is just preparation.

So the fat and stiff people don't seem sick; do they

seem enlightened? (Why am I writing this to you who

obviously must know the answer to your own question? Sorry

for my impudence.)

June 12, 2001

Enlightenment? What's that, really? Maybe it just

means that one learns to change the working of one's

brain so that the neural circuits responsible for

making the distinction between 'me' and 'the world' go

silent. How much of my life should I use for trying to

achieve this neat trick?

June 12, 2001

funky you're so bad. Actually you hit the nail

on the head with the happiness thing. I am justgoing

to call it joyous contentedness. Yes - those chubby

happy chicks have got IT! Now if we cultivate the

contendedness they have we may be happy ...longer and maybe

more comfortably. That's about it. (see

#) And have you noticed how much more happy and

well-adjusted the children of *chubby happy women are. And

generally how nice their husbands are? *chubby here

being a metaphor for any physical flaw a person may

feel they have themselves. #But then if we

were content would we be doing ashtanga? No baby,

we're SEARCHING. Does anyone remember the song

"fat bottom girls...you make the rocking world go

round"

June 12, 2001

Even if neurologists someday manage to

demonstrate that samadhi has a physical basis, that need not

lessen it's value for us, especially if we keep in mind

that samadhi (or the various forms of ecstatic

mystical experience) is oriented to things beyond

itself. Godfreydev once pointed out on this board that samadhi

itself is not the goal of yoga; instead, continuance in

samadhi is supposed to lead to liberation (I guess

through the undoing of samskaric conditioning). Or

from a western point of view, ecstatic experiences

serve to deepen relationships: between the mystic and

God, and between the mystic and others (the quality of

the latter type of relationship being also a visible

guage of the authenticity of the former), pretty much

in the way that sex goes beyond orgasmic ecstasy,

cementing a marriage and making a family. Peace and

Good, Homer

June 13, 2001

>>ecstatic experiences serve to deepen

relationships: between the mystic and God, and between the

mystic and others (the quality of the latter type of

relationship being also a visible guage of the authenticity of

the former) ... hmm. Tricky one. I agree with

you. However, if you take relationships "between the

mystic and others" to refer mainly to immediate family,

then there are a lot of pretty major counter-examples:

Buddha's abandonment of his wife and child; Jesus not

having same; Gandhi by some accounts not the world's

best family man either; any Roman Catholic mystic of

the last thousand years or so.

June 13, 2001

No, by "others" I meant other people in general.

The reference to family was in connection with sex,

which I mentioned only as an analogy to mystical

ecstacsy: Just as (in the western view) sex cements the spousal

realtionship, so mystical experience deepens realationships

too. These relationships may be directly wiht God

(something I have very little conscious awareness of, I'm

afraid) or they could be with God as present in others.

By "the qaulity of the latter type of relationship

being a visible gauge of the authenticity of the

former" I had in mind that notion that we can't genuinely

love God if we don't love other people. Sorry,

I guess I was trying too hard to be concise. My

only point was that from a variety of worldviews,

yogasutra as well as monotheistic, samadhi-like experiences

have a value betyond themselves: thus their sacred

character is not lost if we discover that they are

explainable in terms of the workings of the

brain. Homer

June 14, 2001

"How much of my life should I use for trying to achieve this neat trick?

" your entire life....

June 14, 2001

". I think many of them were comfortable in their

oversized, stiff bodies, because they couldn't remember any

different or figured it was just a normal aging

process." absolutely right on...most people accept an overweight and

stiff body as a natural part of the aging process. it

ain't necessarily true. You see so many older yoga

practictioners prove the falseness of this and it is so

inspiring. Personally, I think yoga is the fountain of youth

although I'm well aware that it is not the ultimate aim of

the practice just a really great benefit. Also, you

get so adapted to living in a stiff body, smokers

body, alcoholic body, malnourished body or whatever for

years on end that you have to experience the opposite

to become aware of what a prisoner you've been to

certain things.

June 14, 2001

<<your entire life.... >> That

makes sense only if one believes that 'enlightement' is

something more that an attainable state of mind. If it is

'just' a very good state of mind, why should we be

myopic and devote our _entire_ lives for chasing just

that?

June 14, 2001

"You see, I see bodies everywhere that are fat

and stiff and locked in position. To me, it looks

like death. But the people in those bodies seem

perfectly happy and seem to prefer being that way. The idea

of excercise or physical movement is like anathema

to them. Some of them don't seem sick at all, just

fat and stiff. So what's the deal? " I think

you've answered your own question. You are right these

average people are basically content with life as is,

business as usual. But the yogi is not normal. He/she

seeks complete liberation on every level -- physical,

psychological, spiritual. So actually that knot in the back of

the neck is representative of something bigger. Don't

you think all that opening in the body causes a

corresponding opening in the mind? My personal experience is an

affirmative. I just wander if buddha, jesus or krishna carried

any i mean ANY tension in their physical bodies...

June 16, 2001

"You see, I see bodies everywhere that are fat

and stiff and locked in position. To me, it looks

like death. But the people in those bodies seem

perfectly happy and seem to prefer being that way. The idea

of excercise or physical movement is like anathema

to them. Some of them don't seem sick at all, just

fat and stiff. So what's the deal? " Y'know,

it used to bother me that I was so much more

beautiful and handsome than almost everyone else in the

world...LOL sorry, but that's what the above statement and

many of the responses to it seem to mean, to me. "I'm

beautiful, you're beautiful, how can those fat people live

that way?" Actually, I used to be fat. No, I became

officially obese at the beginning of my athletic endeavors.

(I took the BMI and BMR) I'm still overweight,

but no longer obese and take it from me, OW people

will not change the way they look until they get good

and ready. Some of them will never change and can't

change, because that's their mission from God,

y'see? Don't act like you don't know how it is, just because

you're what the world calls beautiful and we aren't.

Don't put on airs and try to disguise it as pity or

sympathy, because you're not fooling anyone, probably not

even yourselves. I'm changing my life because it's

right for me, I've held out my hands to my friends, but

they won't or can't climb that mountain with me and I

understand. I love them and I never fail to defend them

either verbally or physically, when some self-satisfied

fitness fanatic makes them feel like they don't belong or

have no right to show themselves in public.

June 16, 2001

Thank you! I thought I was the only one that was put out by all that crap. The

whole Samoan (sp) nation of people would kick all our asses if they heard that

kinda chat..LOL!!!

June 16, 2001

There is no basis for connecting flexibility in

the physical body with pranic flow in the astral

body. Might work for the Easter Bunny, but the rest of

us do not converse regularly with him. And --

please -- cease using pop pseudoyoga nonsense to condemn

fat people to a neo-caste system of your own

imagining. Your overall intolerance sickens me. Kiambo

June 17, 2001

I must agree with topazjay. I used to be really

overweight and my parents have tried for YEARS to motivate

me to lose weight. (I'm almost 21 right now) So,

they started giving me "pep talks" in 4th grade (even

though in 4th grade, I wasn't really OW, I was pudgy). I

tried a few times, with no avail, to lose weight. But,

this October, I threw myself into Ashtanga and since

then I've lost almost 100 pounds now (technically,

I've lost 75). Although I still don't look like a

supermodel, I'm now a size 12 (or 10, depending on the brand)

and I did that all by myself. Not with anyone elses

motivation. My parents didn't really view yoga as something

"real". It was just something I did 3 times a week. Then

they saw me when i came home from school. Hmmm...that

was interesting. Priceless looks. So anyway, people

who are overweight, don't necessarily have to lose

weight. Some of them just fall into it and happen to lose

weight through something they innocently pick up. I,

too, have friends who are overweight--and although it

frustrates me to see them not do anything about it, I can't

do it for them. (okay, there is one that really

pisses me off because whenever my other friend and I ask

her to go anywhere with us, she's too tired to walk

to the car...that is just lazy)

June 18, 2001

That's outstanding, what a great success story for what this yoga can

do. I've lost around 40lbs myself.

June 18, 2001

"They may be as happy as pigs in mud but

spiritually they are still pigs in mud." Hmmmmm...Baba

Neem Karoli, Ammachi, Yogananda, and other spiritual

giants of our time were rather corpulent and pigs in the

mud they certainly were not. What if you attain the

karma to have to work out your realization in an

overweight body in your next life?

June 18, 2001

Vivekananda also was as wide as he was tall.

Pictures of Lord Siva in meditation show a beefy

healthiness with zero muscle definition. The mania for

fashionable abdominal cuts will fade in an instant, along

with the yoga hucksters who guarantee them. Affection

for the true giants of yoga will last forever. "Pigs

in mud" indeed!

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