Modern 'Mahishasura Mardini' Sells For Record $1.54 Million

[Guest guest]

September 22, 2005 | 13:56 IST - Indian artist Tyeb Mehta set a new

record when his painting Mahishasura was bought by a private

collector of Indian origin for a whopping $1.584 million at a

Christie's auction in New York on Wednesday.

 

The collector, who lives in the United States, bid over the

telephone to bag the painting. This is the highest-ever amount to be

paid for a piece of contemporary Indian art.

 

The purchase price was far in excess of the pre-sale estimate of

$600,000 to $800,000 for Mehta's painting.

 

The price also eclipsed the previous record for an Indian artwork

set on Tuesday at Sotheby's Indian sale, when $396,800 was paid for

Ram Kumar's painting Untitled.

 

Christie's said in a statement that this the first time that a

contemporary Indian painting fetched more than $1 million.

 

Mumbai-based 80-year-old Mehta's Mahishasura is said to be a work in

karmic origami depicting the Hindu tale Goddess Durga slaying the

demon Mahishasura. But Mehta has depicted Mahishasura a sympathetic

figure embracing the goddess symbolising the demon's transformation

after uniting with the divine.

 

Mehta is part of the Progressive Artists Group which draws

inspiration from European masters but interprets Indian themes. He

is said to be a very meticulous artist and is not as prolific as

Indian master M F Husain.

 

Christie's, the world's leading art auction house, is also planning

to reopen its Mumbai office and has named Ganieve Grewal as its

permanent representative in India.

 

Christie's had opened its Mumbai office in 1995, but closed it down

last year.

 

SOURCE: Rediff.com

URL (WITH PHOTO OF PAINTING AND ARTIST):

http://inhome.rediff.com/money/2005/sep/22look.htm

[Guest guest]

Wow, I guess Indian artists have officially "made it" to the big-

time. I like that the demon is depicted in transformation. Are there

any online representations of the piece in question?

 

BTW DB, have you gotten that book I posted about, Yoga for the 3

Stages of Life? I was reading in there last night about the two

different "goals" of yoga, one evident in Patanjali's yoga sutras,

and the other in the Vedas. The two goals are 1) unity with the

Divine (Vedas, I guess), and 2) complete cessation of thought (or

other activity). I have actually thought of these as ultimately being

the same, but their origins kind of make them aligned with Hindu and

Buddhist principles respectively. Do you have any thoughts on this

(anyone out there, not just DB)?

 

Also, what do you think of this hathayoga workshop description:

 

"In this course we will explore the five dimensions of yoga practice,

based on the most authoritative scriptures of India. The ancient

texts of the Vedas, from which Yoga is born, give us the five

dimensions of the human system: the physical body, vitality,

intellect, personality and the heart. Learn how to join all five to

transform your consciousness and enrich your practice."

 

Pardon my ignorance, SS learned members. I have read the Hathayoga

Pradipika, Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, and the Bhagavad Gita As It Is,

but I have not read the Vedas directly. I need to see if they come in

Cliff's Notes, or a Vedas for Dummies publication Which Vedas gave

birth to Yoga?

 

 

 

, "Devi Bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

> September 22, 2005 | 13:56 IST - Indian artist Tyeb Mehta set a new

> record when his painting Mahishasura was bought by a private

> collector of Indian origin for a whopping $1.584 million at a

> Christie's auction in New York on Wednesday.

>

> The collector, who lives in the United States, bid over the

> telephone to bag the painting. This is the highest-ever amount to

be

> paid for a piece of contemporary Indian art.

>

> The purchase price was far in excess of the pre-sale estimate of

> $600,000 to $800,000 for Mehta's painting.

>

> The price also eclipsed the previous record for an Indian artwork

> set on Tuesday at Sotheby's Indian sale, when $396,800 was paid for

> Ram Kumar's painting Untitled.

>

> Christie's said in a statement that this the first time that a

> contemporary Indian painting fetched more than $1 million.

>

> Mumbai-based 80-year-old Mehta's Mahishasura is said to be a work

in

> karmic origami depicting the Hindu tale Goddess Durga slaying the

> demon Mahishasura. But Mehta has depicted Mahishasura a sympathetic

> figure embracing the goddess symbolising the demon's transformation

> after uniting with the divine.

>

> Mehta is part of the Progressive Artists Group which draws

> inspiration from European masters but interprets Indian themes. He

> is said to be a very meticulous artist and is not as prolific as

> Indian master M F Husain.

>

> Christie's, the world's leading art auction house, is also planning

> to reopen its Mumbai office and has named Ganieve Grewal as its

> permanent representative in India.

>

> Christie's had opened its Mumbai office in 1995, but closed it down

> last year.

>

> SOURCE: Rediff.com

> URL (WITH PHOTO OF PAINTING AND ARTIST):

> http://inhome.rediff.com/money/2005/sep/22look.htm

[Guest guest]

" the five dimensions of yoga practice, based on the most authoritative

scriptures of India", they could be refering to the pancha koshas, Annamaya,

pranamaya, manomaya, vignanamaya and anandamaya kosha.

 

Mary Ann <buttercookie61 wrote:Wow, I guess Indian artists have

officially "made it" to the big-

time. I like that the demon is depicted in transformation. Are there

any online representations of the piece in question?

 

BTW DB, have you gotten that book I posted about, Yoga for the 3

Stages of Life? I was reading in there last night about the two

different "goals" of yoga, one evident in Patanjali's yoga sutras,

and the other in the Vedas. The two goals are 1) unity with the

Divine (Vedas, I guess), and 2) complete cessation of thought (or

other activity). I have actually thought of these as ultimately being

the same, but their origins kind of make them aligned with Hindu and

Buddhist principles respectively. Do you have any thoughts on this

(anyone out there, not just DB)?

 

Also, what do you think of this hathayoga workshop description:

 

"In this course we will explore the five dimensions of yoga practice,

based on the most authoritative scriptures of India. The ancient

texts of the Vedas, from which Yoga is born, give us the five

dimensions of the human system: the physical body, vitality,

intellect, personality and the heart. Learn how to join all five to

transform your consciousness and enrich your practice."

 

Pardon my ignorance, SS learned members. I have read the Hathayoga

Pradipika, Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, and the Bhagavad Gita As It Is,

but I have not read the Vedas directly. I need to see if they come in

Cliff's Notes, or a Vedas for Dummies publication Which Vedas gave

birth to Yoga?

 

 

 

, "Devi Bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

> September 22, 2005 | 13:56 IST - Indian artist Tyeb Mehta set a new

> record when his painting Mahishasura was bought by a private

> collector of Indian origin for a whopping $1.584 million at a

> Christie's auction in New York on Wednesday.

>

> The collector, who lives in the United States, bid over the

> telephone to bag the painting. This is the highest-ever amount to

be

> paid for a piece of contemporary Indian art.

>

> The purchase price was far in excess of the pre-sale estimate of

> $600,000 to $800,000 for Mehta's painting.

>

> The price also eclipsed the previous record for an Indian artwork

> set on Tuesday at Sotheby's Indian sale, when $396,800 was paid for

> Ram Kumar's painting Untitled.

>

> Christie's said in a statement that this the first time that a

> contemporary Indian painting fetched more than $1 million.

>

> Mumbai-based 80-year-old Mehta's Mahishasura is said to be a work

in

> karmic origami depicting the Hindu tale Goddess Durga slaying the

> demon Mahishasura. But Mehta has depicted Mahishasura a sympathetic

> figure embracing the goddess symbolising the demon's transformation

> after uniting with the divine.

>

> Mehta is part of the Progressive Artists Group which draws

> inspiration from European masters but interprets Indian themes. He

> is said to be a very meticulous artist and is not as prolific as

> Indian master M F Husain.

>

> Christie's, the world's leading art auction house, is also planning

> to reopen its Mumbai office and has named Ganieve Grewal as its

> permanent representative in India.

>

> Christie's had opened its Mumbai office in 1995, but closed it down

> last year.

>

> SOURCE: Rediff.com

> URL (WITH PHOTO OF PAINTING AND ARTIST):

> http://inhome.rediff.com/money/2005/sep/22look.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

there seem to be hints in all the vedas about yoga..like:

RgVeda chapter 9,hymn 93 " with the power of yoga, when the yogi has

control of the 5 organs of action and 5 of perception and mind, in

that way when he meditates, then he sees God"

Yajur veda chapter 7, mantra 4 " a yoga aspirant should learn the

eight fold practice ie five yama-non-

violence,truthfullness,abstaining from theft,celibacy and self

abnegation

SamaVeda mantra 50 " O God kindly be established in pur hearts during

the yogic and devotional morning practices of inhalation and

exhalation (pranayam)

mantra 908 " O Omnipresent God, You are relaised by the yogis/wisers

in their hearts through the power of yoga ie pranayam n meditation

etc.

The vratya people (naagas??)mentioned in chapter 15 of atharva veda,

were believed to practise the control of breathing to attain ecstatic

trance states!

but technically , the word (yoga) as sucj in its present day meaning

can be seen used for the first time(?) in Taittiriya and Katha

upanishads! In katha upanishad, lord Yama can be seen teaching a

young disciple , how to attain the perfect knowledge of "Brahman" and

thus merge with it, through restraining the senses and concentration

The brahmavalli of Taittiruya upanishad starts with an explanation of

Brahman in 5 features , those mentioned by Suresh Deepak sir. The

annamaya (food as self), pranamaya ( breath/bodily movement as self),

manomaya ( thought as self, vigyanamaya(discrimination betn matter n

spirit as self) and anandamaya (bliss as self).

 

Swami Dayananda Sarawatis "An introduction to vedas" is a good

book "http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3440/book2.html"

Though it doesnt do 100% justice , "A Vedic reader for students" by

A.A.macdonell is an ok introduction to rigveda."http://www.sacred-

texts.com/hin/vedaread.htm"

 

 

 

 

 

, "Mary Ann"

<buttercookie61> wrote:

> Wow, I guess Indian artists have officially "made it" to the big-

> time. I like that the demon is depicted in transformation. Are

there

> any online representations of the piece in question?

>

> BTW DB, have you gotten that book I posted about, Yoga for the 3

> Stages of Life? I was reading in there last night about the two

> different "goals" of yoga, one evident in Patanjali's yoga sutras,

> and the other in the Vedas. The two goals are 1) unity with the

> Divine (Vedas, I guess), and 2) complete cessation of thought (or

> other activity). I have actually thought of these as ultimately

being

> the same, but their origins kind of make them aligned with Hindu

and

> Buddhist principles respectively. Do you have any thoughts on this

> (anyone out there, not just DB)?

>

> Also, what do you think of this hathayoga workshop description:

>

> "In this course we will explore the five dimensions of yoga

practice,

> based on the most authoritative scriptures of India. The ancient

> texts of the Vedas, from which Yoga is born, give us the five

> dimensions of the human system: the physical body, vitality,

> intellect, personality and the heart. Learn how to join all five to

> transform your consciousness and enrich your practice."

>

> Pardon my ignorance, SS learned members. I have read the Hathayoga

> Pradipika, Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, and the Bhagavad Gita As It Is,

> but I have not read the Vedas directly. I need to see if they come

in Cliff's Notes, or a Vedas for Dummies publication Which Vedas

gave birth to Yoga?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, "Mary Ann"

<buttercookie61> wrote:

>I was reading in there last night about the two

> different "goals" of yoga, one evident in Patanjali's yoga sutras,

> and the other in the Vedas. The two goals are 1) unity with the

> Divine (Vedas, I guess), and 2) complete cessation of thought (or

> other activity). I have actually thought of these as ultimately

> being the same, but their origins kind of make them aligned with

> Hindu and Buddhist principles respectively.

 

Hi Mary Ann,

 

This is not to raise any hackles between religions, but just wanted

to mention that "Complete cessation of thought" is not just a

Buddhist principle, even though it is seen as dominantly practised

so in Buddhism.

 

Yoga predates Buddhism. The first of 196 sutras in Patanajali's Yoga

sutras is "yoga chitta vritti nirodh" or "Yoga is the control of the

modifications of the mind". Mind is commonly defined here

as "incessant flow of arbitrary thoughts".

 

Sanathana Dharma has so many paradigms of spirituality, that

sometimes I think all of it is not seen or appreciated at once, but

that's ok.....

 

On another note, I find it odd that it was mentioned as "2 goals"

(seeking the divine and mind-flow stop). I thought if you stopped

the mind, you enter into the Silence which is considered the Divine

in another paradigm.

 

So, I am assuming the author said (or atleast intended to say) that:

there are two ways of LOOKING AT THE GOAL, instead of saying there

are two goals.

 

Actually, there are many more ways too: nishkama karma (selfless

work) is another paradigm, for example.

 

my 2c.

 

Jai Ma!

[Guest guest]

Hi Mary Ann:

 

You'd asked: *** Are there any online representations of the piece

in question? ***

 

Yes, there's a link in my original post.

 

*** BTW DB, have you gotten that book I posted about, Yoga for the 3

Stages of Life? ***

 

:-( No, I haven't yet.

 

*** what do you think of this hathayoga workshop description: "In

this course we will explore the five dimensions of yoga practice,

based on the most authoritative scriptures of India. The ancient

texts of the Vedas, from which Yoga is born, give us the five

dimensions of the human system: the physical body, vitality,

intellect, personality and the heart. Learn how to join all five to

transform your consciousness and enrich your practice." ***

 

I agree with Suresh that the reference is to the five koshas, or

progressively subtle layers of the individual.

 

*** Pardon my ignorance, SS learned members. I have read the

Hathayoga Pradipika, Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, and the Bhagavad Gita

As It Is, but I have not read the Vedas directly. ... Which Vedas

gave birth to Yoga? ***

 

I think you've already hit the primary source materials. The

reference (I believe) is not so much to another older, literal text

but to the general philosophy rooted in the Vedas. All Hindu wisdom

on any variety of topics is said to find its source in the Vedas. If

you are interested, two good introductory surveys are Wendy Doniger

O'Flaherty's "The Rig Veda: An Anthology of One Hundred Eight

Hymns," and Valerie Roebuck's selections from "The Upanishads," both

of which are available as affordable and not-too-bulky paperbacks.

 

DB

[Guest guest]

Thank you for this. I could not find mention of the information

Suresh Deepak had posted in the books I have (Barbara Stoler Miller's

version of the Yoga Sutras, and Srivatsa Ramaswami's Yoga for the 3

Stages of Life (which does discuss Shakta texts). I was looking

through the books last night.

 

In the index in the back of the Yoga Sutras, it mentions Buddhism a

lot. I read recently online that yoga was its own thing, not

affiliated with Hinduism (or Buddhism? - what I read that said that

about Hinduism did not address Buddhism). But definitely the Yoga

Sutras contain Buddhist-like principles.

 

I think, maybe (and I say this before reviewing the other replies on

this topic), that both Hinduism and Buddhism utilize yogic

principles, and that the principles gave birth to the two religions

(one being uniting with the Divine, the other being cessation of

thought).

 

 

, "Adwaith Menon" <menonar>

wrote:

> there seem to be hints in all the vedas about yoga..like:

> RgVeda chapter 9,hymn 93 " with the power of yoga, when the yogi

has

> control of the 5 organs of action and 5 of perception and mind, in

> that way when he meditates, then he sees God"

> Yajur veda chapter 7, mantra 4 " a yoga aspirant should learn the

> eight fold practice ie five yama-non-

> violence,truthfullness,abstaining from theft,celibacy and self

> abnegation

> SamaVeda mantra 50 " O God kindly be established in pur hearts

during

> the yogic and devotional morning practices of inhalation and

> exhalation (pranayam)

> mantra 908 " O Omnipresent God, You are relaised by the

yogis/wisers

> in their hearts through the power of yoga ie pranayam n meditation

> etc.

> The vratya people (naagas??)mentioned in chapter 15 of atharva

veda,

> were believed to practise the control of breathing to attain

ecstatic

> trance states!

> but technically , the word (yoga) as sucj in its present day

meaning

> can be seen used for the first time(?) in Taittiriya and Katha

> upanishads! In katha upanishad, lord Yama can be seen teaching a

> young disciple , how to attain the perfect knowledge of "Brahman"

and

> thus merge with it, through restraining the senses and concentration

> The brahmavalli of Taittiruya upanishad starts with an explanation

of

> Brahman in 5 features , those mentioned by Suresh Deepak sir. The

> annamaya (food as self), pranamaya ( breath/bodily movement as

self),

> manomaya ( thought as self, vigyanamaya(discrimination betn matter

n

> spirit as self) and anandamaya (bliss as self).

>

> Swami Dayananda Sarawatis "An introduction to vedas" is a good

> book "http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3440/book2.html"

> Though it doesnt do 100% justice , "A Vedic reader for students" by

> A.A.macdonell is an ok introduction to rigveda."http://www.sacred-

> texts.com/hin/vedaread.htm"

>

>

>

>

>

> , "Mary Ann"

> <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > Wow, I guess Indian artists have officially "made it" to the big-

> > time. I like that the demon is depicted in transformation. Are

> there

> > any online representations of the piece in question?

> >

> > BTW DB, have you gotten that book I posted about, Yoga for the 3

> > Stages of Life? I was reading in there last night about the two

> > different "goals" of yoga, one evident in Patanjali's yoga

sutras,

> > and the other in the Vedas. The two goals are 1) unity with the

> > Divine (Vedas, I guess), and 2) complete cessation of thought (or

> > other activity). I have actually thought of these as ultimately

> being

> > the same, but their origins kind of make them aligned with Hindu

> and

> > Buddhist principles respectively. Do you have any thoughts on

this

> > (anyone out there, not just DB)?

> >

> > Also, what do you think of this hathayoga workshop description:

> >

> > "In this course we will explore the five dimensions of yoga

> practice,

> > based on the most authoritative scriptures of India. The ancient

> > texts of the Vedas, from which Yoga is born, give us the five

> > dimensions of the human system: the physical body, vitality,

> > intellect, personality and the heart. Learn how to join all five

to

> > transform your consciousness and enrich your practice."

> >

> > Pardon my ignorance, SS learned members. I have read the

Hathayoga

> > Pradipika, Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, and the Bhagavad Gita As It

Is,

> > but I have not read the Vedas directly. I need to see if they

come

> in Cliff's Notes, or a Vedas for Dummies publication Which Vedas

> gave birth to Yoga?

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Oh, sorry - I went to the link and saw that with the article. I am

blond, you know :-P

 

Thanks for the text references, too. I am interested in reading more,

but would like to possibly take the workshop (or some other) that

could help me unite the meanings underlying the words with my

hathayoga practice. I am starting to feel a need to bring these

aspects together more.

 

 

 

, "Devi Bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

> Hi Mary Ann:

>

> You'd asked: *** Are there any online representations of the piece

> in question? ***

>

> Yes, there's a link in my original post.

>

> *** BTW DB, have you gotten that book I posted about, Yoga for the

3

> Stages of Life? ***

>

> :-( No, I haven't yet.

>

> *** what do you think of this hathayoga workshop description: "In

> this course we will explore the five dimensions of yoga practice,

> based on the most authoritative scriptures of India. The ancient

> texts of the Vedas, from which Yoga is born, give us the five

> dimensions of the human system: the physical body, vitality,

> intellect, personality and the heart. Learn how to join all five to

> transform your consciousness and enrich your practice." ***

>

> I agree with Suresh that the reference is to the five koshas, or

> progressively subtle layers of the individual.

>

> *** Pardon my ignorance, SS learned members. I have read the

> Hathayoga Pradipika, Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, and the Bhagavad Gita

> As It Is, but I have not read the Vedas directly. ... Which Vedas

> gave birth to Yoga? ***

>

> I think you've already hit the primary source materials. The

> reference (I believe) is not so much to another older, literal text

> but to the general philosophy rooted in the Vedas. All Hindu wisdom

> on any variety of topics is said to find its source in the Vedas.

If

> you are interested, two good introductory surveys are Wendy Doniger

> O'Flaherty's "The Rig Veda: An Anthology of One Hundred Eight

> Hymns," and Valerie Roebuck's selections from "The Upanishads,"

both

> of which are available as affordable and not-too-bulky paperbacks.

>

> DB

[Guest guest]

*** I read recently online that yoga was its own thing, not

affiliated with Hinduism ***

 

This is absolutely incorrect. You can certainly get a lot of

physical benefits from a hathayoga asana practice even if you ignore

the Hindu undercurrents that inform it. But ignoring them will

definitely limit how far your practice will take you.

 

*** But definitely the Yoga Sutras contain Buddhist-like

principles. ... I think, maybe that both Hinduism and Buddhism

utilize yogic principles, and that the principles gave birth to the

two religions ***

 

I have to disagree with this also. Buddhism is not a "separate

religion," but a variety of Hinduism (the historical Buddha began

his life as a Hindu Indian prince, and his precepts are -- like any

Guru's precepts -- merely a reinterpretation of ancient Hindu

principles). Perhaps because they were more abstract and less tied

to the cultural specificities of India than many, his teachings took

on a life of their own and prospered throughout East Asia and

beyond.

 

But "Yogic priciples" are rooted in Hinduism, which in turn gave

birth to Buddhism. That is the basis of the similarities you observe.

 

My 2 cents ...

[Guest guest]

Well if you get a chance, take a look at Barbara Stoler Miller's

Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. I am not making any claims about her work

other than that she refers to Buddhism a lot in the book.

 

BTW even if Buddhism is "derivative" of or from Hinduism, the reason

(s) for its development had to do, I assume, with a bit of a

different focus, or viewpoint, re achieving optimum result (union

with the Divine/cessation of thought) -- which MUST really be the

same thing, IMHO.

 

, "Devi Bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

> *** I read recently online that yoga was its own thing, not

> affiliated with Hinduism ***

>

> This is absolutely incorrect. You can certainly get a lot of

> physical benefits from a hathayoga asana practice even if you

ignore

> the Hindu undercurrents that inform it. But ignoring them will

> definitely limit how far your practice will take you.

>

> *** But definitely the Yoga Sutras contain Buddhist-like

> principles. ... I think, maybe that both Hinduism and Buddhism

> utilize yogic principles, and that the principles gave birth to the

> two religions ***

>

> I have to disagree with this also. Buddhism is not a "separate

> religion," but a variety of Hinduism (the historical Buddha began

> his life as a Hindu Indian prince, and his precepts are -- like any

> Guru's precepts -- merely a reinterpretation of ancient Hindu

> principles). Perhaps because they were more abstract and less tied

> to the cultural specificities of India than many, his teachings

took

> on a life of their own and prospered throughout East Asia and

> beyond.

>

> But "Yogic priciples" are rooted in Hinduism, which in turn gave

> birth to Buddhism. That is the basis of the similarities you

observe.

>

> My 2 cents ...

[Guest guest]

I agree with you, Manoj. Thanks for your comments.

 

, "manoj_menon" <ammademon@g...>

wrote:

> , "Mary Ann"

> <buttercookie61> wrote:

> >I was reading in there last night about the two

> > different "goals" of yoga, one evident in Patanjali's yoga

sutras,

> > and the other in the Vedas. The two goals are 1) unity with the

> > Divine (Vedas, I guess), and 2) complete cessation of thought (or

> > other activity). I have actually thought of these as ultimately

> > being the same, but their origins kind of make them aligned with

> > Hindu and Buddhist principles respectively.

>

> Hi Mary Ann,

>

> This is not to raise any hackles between religions, but just wanted

> to mention that "Complete cessation of thought" is not just a

> Buddhist principle, even though it is seen as dominantly practised

> so in Buddhism.

>

> Yoga predates Buddhism. The first of 196 sutras in Patanajali's

Yoga

> sutras is "yoga chitta vritti nirodh" or "Yoga is the control of

the

> modifications of the mind". Mind is commonly defined here

> as "incessant flow of arbitrary thoughts".

>

> Sanathana Dharma has so many paradigms of spirituality, that

> sometimes I think all of it is not seen or appreciated at once, but

> that's ok.....

>

> On another note, I find it odd that it was mentioned as "2 goals"

> (seeking the divine and mind-flow stop). I thought if you stopped

> the mind, you enter into the Silence which is considered the Divine

> in another paradigm.

>

> So, I am assuming the author said (or atleast intended to say)

that:

> there are two ways of LOOKING AT THE GOAL, instead of saying there

> are two goals.

>

> Actually, there are many more ways too: nishkama karma (selfless

> work) is another paradigm, for example.

>

> my 2c.

>

> Jai Ma!

[Guest guest]

IS it incorrect to say that yoga, or hathayoga, was around before

Hinduism? It is possible that Hinduism developed in accordance with

yogic principles. I'm not an historical scholar (or a scholar of any

kind, as I'm sure is evident to any detractors out there :-P) but

this yoga-first, Hinduism/Buddhism after seemed plausible.

 

, "Devi Bhakta"

<devi_bhakta> wrote:

> *** I read recently online that yoga was its own thing, not

> affiliated with Hinduism ***

>

> This is absolutely incorrect. You can certainly get a lot of

> physical benefits from a hathayoga asana practice even if you

ignore

> the Hindu undercurrents that inform it. But ignoring them will

> definitely limit how far your practice will take you.

>

> *** But definitely the Yoga Sutras contain Buddhist-like

> principles. ... I think, maybe that both Hinduism and Buddhism

> utilize yogic principles, and that the principles gave birth to the

> two religions ***

>

> I have to disagree with this also. Buddhism is not a "separate

> religion," but a variety of Hinduism (the historical Buddha began

> his life as a Hindu Indian prince, and his precepts are -- like any

> Guru's precepts -- merely a reinterpretation of ancient Hindu

> principles). Perhaps because they were more abstract and less tied

> to the cultural specificities of India than many, his teachings

took

> on a life of their own and prospered throughout East Asia and

> beyond.

>

> But "Yogic priciples" are rooted in Hinduism, which in turn gave

> birth to Buddhism. That is the basis of the similarities you

observe.

>

> My 2 cents ...

[Guest guest]

It's all a matter of definition, I suppose. If you say

"Hinduism started with the Vedas, and the Vedas are

dateable to 1500 BC, so that is when Hinduism

started," you can then point to a seal unearthed at

Mohanjodaro (c. 2500 BC), which apparently shows a man

(who looks a lot like Siva) apparently seated in

padmaasana, and say, "Aha! There! Yoga came first!"

 

But as far as I understand, the vast, diverse

religious-social complex that is today collectively

referred to as Sanatana Dharma or Hinduism or whatever

was already more or less fully formed in the days of

Harappan Civilization (c. 2,500 BC), and probably

stretches back far into prehistory to the dawn of

human consciousness.

 

Any devout Hindu will tell you that the Vedas hve

existed since time immemorial as vibrations in space.

And many scholars will add that -- although written

records don't exist before 1,500 BC -- the Vedas were

perceived by seers and transmitted via an oral

tradition for as long as 8,000 years before being set

down in writing.

 

Each age has added its own stamps to this impossibly

ancient tradition, and has refined and systematized

pieces of it in various ways (Buddhism, as most people

understand it, arose out of the teachings of Siddartha

Gautam around 600 BC -- but serious adherents of that

system will tell you that there were at least 27

Buddhas before him; and Hindus will tell you that he

was simply an incarnation of Vishnu, like Krishna or

Rama, etc. Do you see where this is going? *s*).

 

So to answer your question: No, I don't think the

practice of hatha yoga can really be separated out of

all that as coming "before" or "after". I think it is

an organic and integral part of what Hinduism is.

 

aim mAtangyai namaH

 

 

--- Mary Ann <buttercookie61 wrote:

> IS it incorrect to say that yoga, or hathayoga, was

> around before

> Hinduism? It is possible that Hinduism developed in

> accordance with

> yogic principles. I'm not an historical scholar (or

> a scholar of any

> kind, as I'm sure is evident to any detractors out

> there :-P) but

> this yoga-first, Hinduism/Buddhism after seemed

> plausible.

 

 

 

 

 

Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

 

[Guest guest]

This distinction matters to me because I am not a Hindu, and have no

intention of becoming Hindu, if that is even possible for westerners.

But I am a serious yoga student/practitioner (though I'm sure purists

would argue against this, esp. since I haven't yet begun

incorporating bija mantras into my practice And I will continue to

learn what yoga has to teach me, through its physical forms in

hathayoga and in its philosophy/ies.

 

 

, Devi bhakta <devi_bhakta>

wrote:

> It's all a matter of definition, I suppose. If you say

> "Hinduism started with the Vedas, and the Vedas are

> dateable to 1500 BC, so that is when Hinduism

> started," you can then point to a seal unearthed at

> Mohanjodaro (c. 2500 BC), which apparently shows a man

> (who looks a lot like Siva) apparently seated in

> padmaasana, and say, "Aha! There! Yoga came first!"

>

> But as far as I understand, the vast, diverse

> religious-social complex that is today collectively

> referred to as Sanatana Dharma or Hinduism or whatever

> was already more or less fully formed in the days of

> Harappan Civilization (c. 2,500 BC), and probably

> stretches back far into prehistory to the dawn of

> human consciousness.

>

> Any devout Hindu will tell you that the Vedas hve

> existed since time immemorial as vibrations in space.

> And many scholars will add that -- although written

> records don't exist before 1,500 BC -- the Vedas were

> perceived by seers and transmitted via an oral

> tradition for as long as 8,000 years before being set

> down in writing.

>

> Each age has added its own stamps to this impossibly

> ancient tradition, and has refined and systematized

> pieces of it in various ways (Buddhism, as most people

> understand it, arose out of the teachings of Siddartha

> Gautam around 600 BC -- but serious adherents of that

> system will tell you that there were at least 27

> Buddhas before him; and Hindus will tell you that he

> was simply an incarnation of Vishnu, like Krishna or

> Rama, etc. Do you see where this is going? *s*).

>

> So to answer your question: No, I don't think the

> practice of hatha yoga can really be separated out of

> all that as coming "before" or "after". I think it is

> an organic and integral part of what Hinduism is.

>

> aim mAtangyai namaH

>

>

> --- Mary Ann <buttercookie61> wrote:

>

> > IS it incorrect to say that yoga, or hathayoga, was

> > around before

> > Hinduism? It is possible that Hinduism developed in

> > accordance with

> > yogic principles. I'm not an historical scholar (or

> > a scholar of any

> > kind, as I'm sure is evident to any detractors out

> > there :-P) but

> > this yoga-first, Hinduism/Buddhism after seemed

> > plausible.

>

>

>

>

>

> Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

>

[Guest guest]

, "Mary Ann"

<buttercookie61> wrote:

> This distinction matters to me because I am not a Hindu, and have no

> intention of becoming Hindu, if that is even possible for

> westerners.

 

I don't see why it is not possible. if there can be western buddhists

(Robert Thurman, Jack Cornfield etc), there can be western hindus too.

As extreme examples, look at the late Sivaya Subramuniya Swami and

Swami Satyananda Saraswati. There are many examples of

reasonably-committed householder westerners too.

> But I am a serious yoga student/practitioner (though I'm

> sure purists would argue against this, esp. since I haven't yet

> begun incorporating bija mantras into my practice

 

Ashtanga-yoga, that was earliest organized by Patanjali in written

form, does not *require* usage of bijas to make you a yoga practioner.

Although if you have a guru (and you usually must to practice it in

its entirety), and (S)he imparts it you as part of the practice, then

you must incorporate the bijas too.

 

Essentially, ashtanga-yoga is about breathing in-and-out into the goal

using the techniques of mediation at its higher stages (all learned

usually under the guidance of a qualified guru; to give you an idea on

the insistence of the guru for this practice, consider him as a coach

of a sports team like basketball or football and give him that much

(and possibly more) respect); anything else other than breathing and

meditation is an addition made by various gurus based on the shisya's

spiritual make-up.

 

Now, Hatha-yoga takes the 3rd limb of the ashtanga - asana - to its

extreme and has developed wonderful complicated exercises. Ashtanga

focusses on moderation; to focus on all the 8 limbs to go into the

goal. It is said that it is possible to achieve the goal using Hatha

alone, but the pitfalls (distractions) are many, and success is rare

but usually spectacular.

 

If you do not have a guru and are practising the 3rd anga (limb or

component) of the ashtanga, i.e. asana, as you are drawn to it, I do

not think you need to worry about non-usage of bijas to stop you from

being qualified as a serious yoga student.

[Guest guest]

Hi - I was kind of joking about the bija mantras in that someone had

posted recently that all serious students of hathayoga or yoga use

them, and I haven't. In fact, I was first introduced to them in

asana practice in a workshop called Shakti Sadhana here in the Los

Angeles area, but the teacher was truly a buffoon, and I hadn't

really thought of the practice again until recently.

 

I guess I'm also saying I don't want to have to become Hindu to

practice yoga. I think of it more the way Amma says about the

Divine - if you have a heart of love and compassion, you don't have

to pray to any God(dess); God is love and compassion. I am drawn to

the information available through yoga, and especially hathayoga.

This is not meant to disparage any religion or belief about what

yoga is. I prefer to let yoga, through hathayoga, teach me.

Otherwise, I feel a bit of pressure to conform to something that

doesn't really fit for me in terms of identifying with a religion.

 

I also haven't been practicing Ashtanga, the 8 limbs. I guess I have

been practicing only hathayoga, with most success from me coming

through the Viniyoga lineage.

 

What about you? Are you a hathayoga practitioner, or Ashtanga?

 

 

, "manoj_menon"

<ammademon@g...> wrote:

> , "Mary Ann"

> <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > This distinction matters to me because I am not a Hindu, and

have no

> > intention of becoming Hindu, if that is even possible for

> > westerners.

>

> I don't see why it is not possible. if there can be western

buddhists

> (Robert Thurman, Jack Cornfield etc), there can be western hindus

too.

> As extreme examples, look at the late Sivaya Subramuniya Swami and

> Swami Satyananda Saraswati. There are many examples of

> reasonably-committed householder westerners too.

>

> > But I am a serious yoga student/practitioner (though I'm

> > sure purists would argue against this, esp. since I haven't yet

> > begun incorporating bija mantras into my practice

>

> Ashtanga-yoga, that was earliest organized by Patanjali in written

> form, does not *require* usage of bijas to make you a yoga

practioner.

> Although if you have a guru (and you usually must to practice it in

> its entirety), and (S)he imparts it you as part of the practice,

then

> you must incorporate the bijas too.

>

> Essentially, ashtanga-yoga is about breathing in-and-out into the

goal

> using the techniques of mediation at its higher stages (all learned

> usually under the guidance of a qualified guru; to give you an

idea on

> the insistence of the guru for this practice, consider him as a

coach

> of a sports team like basketball or football and give him that much

> (and possibly more) respect); anything else other than breathing

and

> meditation is an addition made by various gurus based on the

shisya's

> spiritual make-up.

>

> Now, Hatha-yoga takes the 3rd limb of the ashtanga - asana - to its

> extreme and has developed wonderful complicated exercises. Ashtanga

> focusses on moderation; to focus on all the 8 limbs to go into the

> goal. It is said that it is possible to achieve the goal using

Hatha

> alone, but the pitfalls (distractions) are many, and success is

rare

> but usually spectacular.

>

> If you do not have a guru and are practising the 3rd anga (limb or

> component) of the ashtanga, i.e. asana, as you are drawn to it, I

do

> not think you need to worry about non-usage of bijas to stop you

from

> being qualified as a serious yoga student.

[Guest guest]

I wanted to correct something I was wrong about: I DO practice the 8

limbs of yoga. I said I didn't because there is a class

called "Ashtanga Yoga" at the studio where I practice, and I don't

take it. I have found it unhelpful. It is comprised of a series (or

more than one series) of asanas done under self-direction that

become more complex as you progress through the series. I have a lot

of structural issues to deal with, and the class wasn't helpful to

me.

 

Today I took Bija Bennett's book Emotional Yoga off my shelf and

read it during breakfast. She explains the terms that Suresh Deepak

had posted that I didn't know - this book has been sitting on the

shelf since my first skim-through. The author says:

 

"Based on the explorations of the Indian Vedic seers, or rishis,

yoga and Ayurveda both acknowledge a broader view of the human

process. Rather than see the body and mind as a set of biochemical

processes, they view it as a collection of layers ranging from

material, to subtle, to causal. Like the petals of a rose, all

layers unfold from within one another-from the outer physical layer

(annamaya), to the vital energy layer (pranamaya), to the mental and

emotional layer (manomaya), to the intelligence layer (vijnanamaya),

to the deepest dimension of consciousness (anandamaya)."

 

She describes her work in this book as follows:

 

"In Emotional Yoga, I have adapted the Yoga Sutra's traditional

eight limbs to represent both the qualities of awareness that are

potentially present in every emotional experience, and which we can

access, and the teachings and practices for emotional self-healing

and growth. Collectively, these qualities and practices lead us

through a natural cycle of self-transformation through which we can

align both the physical and emotional aspects of ourselves.

 

The qualities of the eight limbs are:

 

Allowance

Allegiance

Will and Power

Love

Harmony

Knowledge

Wisdom

Synergy

 

These eight qualities are based on ancient insight that there are

intelligent, energetic properties in nature that manifest as

physical reality, both within us and without. Like playing the

various tones of a musical scale, when we attune ourselves to a

deeper flow of energy and awareness, we create internal

transformation and change that are inherently harmonious with our

true natures.

 

The teachings and practices of the eight limbs are:

 

Intelligent Behaviors

Personal Attitudes

Bodily Exercise

Conscious Breathing

Sensory Awareness

Focusing Attention

Sustaining Attention

Increasing Wholeness."

>From the above, I recognize that I have been practicing the 8 limbs.

 

Here is a quote from Rumi in the book that is quite beautiful:

 

"Every forest branch moves differently in the breeze, but as they

sawy they connect at the roots."

 

Namaste, All

 

, "Mary Ann"

<buttercookie61> wrote:

> Hi - I was kind of joking about the bija mantras in that someone

had

> posted recently that all serious students of hathayoga or yoga use

> them, and I haven't. In fact, I was first introduced to them in

> asana practice in a workshop called Shakti Sadhana here in the Los

> Angeles area, but the teacher was truly a buffoon, and I hadn't

> really thought of the practice again until recently.

>

> I guess I'm also saying I don't want to have to become Hindu to

> practice yoga. I think of it more the way Amma says about the

> Divine - if you have a heart of love and compassion, you don't

have

> to pray to any God(dess); God is love and compassion. I am drawn

to

> the information available through yoga, and especially hathayoga.

> This is not meant to disparage any religion or belief about what

> yoga is. I prefer to let yoga, through hathayoga, teach me.

> Otherwise, I feel a bit of pressure to conform to something that

> doesn't really fit for me in terms of identifying with a religion.

>

> I also haven't been practicing Ashtanga, the 8 limbs. I guess I

have

> been practicing only hathayoga, with most success from me coming

> through the Viniyoga lineage.

>

> What about you? Are you a hathayoga practitioner, or Ashtanga?

>

>

> , "manoj_menon"

> <ammademon@g...> wrote:

> > , "Mary Ann"

> > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > This distinction matters to me because I am not a Hindu, and

> have no

> > > intention of becoming Hindu, if that is even possible for

> > > westerners.

> >

> > I don't see why it is not possible. if there can be western

> buddhists

> > (Robert Thurman, Jack Cornfield etc), there can be western

hindus

> too.

> > As extreme examples, look at the late Sivaya Subramuniya Swami

and

> > Swami Satyananda Saraswati. There are many examples of

> > reasonably-committed householder westerners too.

> >

> > > But I am a serious yoga student/practitioner (though I'm

> > > sure purists would argue against this, esp. since I haven't

yet

> > > begun incorporating bija mantras into my practice

> >

> > Ashtanga-yoga, that was earliest organized by Patanjali in

written

> > form, does not *require* usage of bijas to make you a yoga

> practioner.

> > Although if you have a guru (and you usually must to practice it

in

> > its entirety), and (S)he imparts it you as part of the practice,

> then

> > you must incorporate the bijas too.

> >

> > Essentially, ashtanga-yoga is about breathing in-and-out into

the

> goal

> > using the techniques of mediation at its higher stages (all

learned

> > usually under the guidance of a qualified guru; to give you an

> idea on

> > the insistence of the guru for this practice, consider him as a

> coach

> > of a sports team like basketball or football and give him that

much

> > (and possibly more) respect); anything else other than breathing

> and

> > meditation is an addition made by various gurus based on the

> shisya's

> > spiritual make-up.

> >

> > Now, Hatha-yoga takes the 3rd limb of the ashtanga - asana - to

its

> > extreme and has developed wonderful complicated exercises.

Ashtanga

> > focusses on moderation; to focus on all the 8 limbs to go into

the

> > goal. It is said that it is possible to achieve the goal using

> Hatha

> > alone, but the pitfalls (distractions) are many, and success is

> rare

> > but usually spectacular.

> >

> > If you do not have a guru and are practising the 3rd anga (limb

or

> > component) of the ashtanga, i.e. asana, as you are drawn to it,

I

> do

> > not think you need to worry about non-usage of bijas to stop you

> from

> > being qualified as a serious yoga student.

[Guest guest]

, "Mary Ann"

<buttercookie61> wrote:

> I also haven't been practicing Ashtanga, the 8 limbs. I guess I have

> been practicing only hathayoga, with most success from me coming

> through the Viniyoga lineage.

>

> What about you? Are you a hathayoga practitioner, or Ashtanga?

 

I read your later post where you mentioned that you are practising the

asht-anga. good!

 

No, I am not a serious yoga practionioner, and definitely not the

hatha-yoga variety.

 

My early commitment to spirituality came via the relatively secular

modes of yoga practice because of a back ache. I practised it

diligently for 6 months or so, but I had to move away from the place

because of my job and could not find enough inspiration to sustain the

practice all by myself. A major reason was that while it fed my

spiritual hunger greatly, it did little to relieve the intense back

ache. I go to a chiropractor these days, and his skills in back-

twisting have relieved the back ache considerably. I find chiropractic

to be an amazing physical equivalent therapy of the Kundalini yoga

practice.

 

I started off with a few simple asanas which was supervised by

selfless volunteers, which culminated in a generally thoughtful

satsang by the yoga master (a kind avuncular man). He also made us

practise a few pranayams and shava-asana which was great, and left us

with the advice of being more and more aware of our breath, and

eventually when the practice was perfected, he said we must graduate

that pratice to the awareness of our entire life. He also said

basically this: "Keep your practices simple. Become more and more

aware of your breath, and these centering practices will one day the

give you clarity regarding the purpose of your life also." This was in

Mumbai more than 10 years ago, where I then lived.

 

But my spiritual readings took off from that time, and then Ammachi's

entry into my life gave a very different twist to my spiritual life.

There is a small but significant component of meditation in my life,

but much is spent in trying to be the witness of all that happens. I

am also grateful to Her for having giving me more than just a glimpse

of what it means to be "devotional". Her intense love and compassion

have, as if, blasted through the cold rock around my heart, and made

me more receptive to what Love truly is. and what to speak of the

bhajans! I see Krishna and Shiva in my mind's eye so clearly when

their bhajans are being sung.

 

anyway, to sum it all up, this is my analysis of my life: I have been

more lucky than i have been deserving. I pray to remain so!

 

Jai Ma!

[Guest guest]

There is an excellent article in the current issue of Hinduism

Today entitled 'Confessions of a Western Hindu'. The author,

Swami Shankarananda who is a disciple a Swami Muktananda

agrees that there is such a thing as a western Hindu and adds.

"As Western Hindus, we are pioneers writing n a clean slate. We

are on the cutting edge of a cultural and spiritual evolutionary

process....A new chapter in the evolution of Hinduism has

arisen.

 

He also makes the point that western Hindus will not accept

being at the bottom of the caste system.

 

, "manoj_menon"

<ammademon@g...> wrote:

> , "Mary Ann"

> <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > This distinction matters to me because I am not a Hindu, and

have no

> > intention of becoming Hindu, if that is even possible for

> > westerners.

>

> I don't see why it is not possible. if there can be western

buddhists

> (Robert Thurman, Jack Cornfield etc), there can be western

hindus too.

> As extreme examples, look at the late Sivaya Subramuniya

Swami and

> Swami Satyananda Saraswati. There are many examples of

> reasonably-committed householder westerners too.

>

> > But I am a serious yoga student/practitioner (though I'm

> > sure purists would argue against this, esp. since I haven't yet

> > begun incorporating bija mantras into my practice

>

> Ashtanga-yoga, that was earliest organized by Patanjali in

written

> form, does not *require* usage of bijas to make you a yoga

practioner.

> Although if you have a guru (and you usually must to practice it

in

> its entirety), and (S)he imparts it you as part of the practice,

then

> you must incorporate the bijas too.

>

> Essentially, ashtanga-yoga is about breathing in-and-out into

the goal

> using the techniques of mediation at its higher stages (all

learned

> usually under the guidance of a qualified guru; to give you an

idea on

> the insistence of the guru for this practice, consider him as a

coach

> of a sports team like basketball or football and give him that

much

> (and possibly more) respect); anything else other than

breathing and

> meditation is an addition made by various gurus based on the

shisya's

> spiritual make-up.

>

> Now, Hatha-yoga takes the 3rd limb of the ashtanga - asana -

to its

> extreme and has developed wonderful complicated exercises.

Ashtanga

> focusses on moderation; to focus on all the 8 limbs to go into

the

> goal. It is said that it is possible to achieve the goal using

Hatha

> alone, but the pitfalls (distractions) are many, and success is

rare

> but usually spectacular.

>

> If you do not have a guru and are practising the 3rd anga (limb

or

> component) of the ashtanga, i.e. asana, as you are drawn to it,

I do

> not think you need to worry about non-usage of bijas to stop

you from

> being qualified as a serious yoga student.

[Guest guest]

Whew! Where to begin?

 

Hatha Yoga is not a form of physical exercise. As its name

clearly states it is about Prana and specifically about Kundalini.

 

If you are not looking at the Yamas and Niyamas in your life then

not only are you not 'doing' Yoga but rather some form of physical

exercise but more seriously you are endangering your mental

and physical life. If Kundalini were to arise in you, your lack of

purification would result you experiencing some debilitation from

the movement of Kundalini through your Karmic blocks, perhaps

even permanent psychosis or death. It is not for nothing, that the

western psychiatric profession has finally acknowledged

'spiritual emergence syndrome' where people such as you who

do not prepare themselves for high Prana surges, much less

Kundalini, run into difficulty with their spiritual endeavors. There

are no short cuts to Self-Realization, one must prepare

themselves and remove ego, desire and karma influences,

replacing them with detachment, objectivity, equinimity, selfless

service, and most importantly mumukshatwa, a one-pointed

focus on the Divine to the exclusion of all else.

 

Hari Om

 

 

 

 

, "Mary Ann"

<buttercookie61> wrote:

> Hi - I was kind of joking about the bija mantras in that

someone had

> posted recently that all serious students of hathayoga or yoga

use

> them, and I haven't. In fact, I was first introduced to them in

> asana practice in a workshop called Shakti Sadhana here in

the Los

> Angeles area, but the teacher was truly a buffoon, and I hadn't

> really thought of the practice again until recently.

>

> I guess I'm also saying I don't want to have to become Hindu to

> practice yoga. I think of it more the way Amma says about the

> Divine - if you have a heart of love and compassion, you don't

have

> to pray to any God(dess); God is love and compassion. I am

drawn to

> the information available through yoga, and especially

hathayoga.

> This is not meant to disparage any religion or belief about what

> yoga is. I prefer to let yoga, through hathayoga, teach me.

> Otherwise, I feel a bit of pressure to conform to something that

> doesn't really fit for me in terms of identifying with a religion.

>

> I also haven't been practicing Ashtanga, the 8 limbs. I guess I

have

> been practicing only hathayoga, with most success from me

coming

> through the Viniyoga lineage.

>

> What about you? Are you a hathayoga practitioner, or

Ashtanga?

>

>

> , "manoj_menon"

> <ammademon@g...> wrote:

> > , "Mary Ann"

> > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > This distinction matters to me because I am not a Hindu,

and

> have no

> > > intention of becoming Hindu, if that is even possible for

> > > westerners.

> >

> > I don't see why it is not possible. if there can be western

> buddhists

> > (Robert Thurman, Jack Cornfield etc), there can be western

hindus

> too.

> > As extreme examples, look at the late Sivaya Subramuniya

Swami and

> > Swami Satyananda Saraswati. There are many examples of

> > reasonably-committed householder westerners too.

> >

> > > But I am a serious yoga student/practitioner (though I'm

> > > sure purists would argue against this, esp. since I haven't

yet

> > > begun incorporating bija mantras into my practice

> >

> > Ashtanga-yoga, that was earliest organized by Patanjali in

written

> > form, does not *require* usage of bijas to make you a yoga

> practioner.

> > Although if you have a guru (and you usually must to practice

it in

> > its entirety), and (S)he imparts it you as part of the practice,

> then

> > you must incorporate the bijas too.

> >

> > Essentially, ashtanga-yoga is about breathing in-and-out into

the

> goal

> > using the techniques of mediation at its higher stages (all

learned

> > usually under the guidance of a qualified guru; to give you an

> idea on

> > the insistence of the guru for this practice, consider him as a

> coach

> > of a sports team like basketball or football and give him that

much

> > (and possibly more) respect); anything else other than

breathing

> and

> > meditation is an addition made by various gurus based on

the

> shisya's

> > spiritual make-up.

> >

> > Now, Hatha-yoga takes the 3rd limb of the ashtanga - asana

- to its

> > extreme and has developed wonderful complicated

exercises. Ashtanga

> > focusses on moderation; to focus on all the 8 limbs to go into

the

> > goal. It is said that it is possible to achieve the goal using

> Hatha

> > alone, but the pitfalls (distractions) are many, and success is

> rare

> > but usually spectacular.

> >

> > If you do not have a guru and are practising the 3rd anga

(limb or

> > component) of the ashtanga, i.e. asana, as you are drawn to

it, I

> do

> > not think you need to worry about non-usage of bijas to stop

you

> from

> > being qualified as a serious yoga student.

[Guest guest]

Well, I think you should begin from where you are, and trust that

your path will call to you when you are ready to hear it.

 

, "just4amusement"

<just4amusement> wrote:

> Whew! Where to begin?

>

> Hatha Yoga is not a form of physical exercise. As its name

> clearly states it is about Prana and specifically about Kundalini.

>

> If you are not looking at the Yamas and Niyamas in your life then

> not only are you not 'doing' Yoga but rather some form of physical

> exercise but more seriously you are endangering your mental

> and physical life. If Kundalini were to arise in you, your lack

of

> purification would result you experiencing some debilitation from

> the movement of Kundalini through your Karmic blocks, perhaps

> even permanent psychosis or death. It is not for nothing, that

the

> western psychiatric profession has finally acknowledged

> 'spiritual emergence syndrome' where people such as you who

> do not prepare themselves for high Prana surges, much less

> Kundalini, run into difficulty with their spiritual endeavors.

There

> are no short cuts to Self-Realization, one must prepare

> themselves and remove ego, desire and karma influences,

> replacing them with detachment, objectivity, equinimity, selfless

> service, and most importantly mumukshatwa, a one-pointed

> focus on the Divine to the exclusion of all else.

>

> Hari Om

>

>

>

>

> , "Mary Ann"

> <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > Hi - I was kind of joking about the bija mantras in that

> someone had

> > posted recently that all serious students of hathayoga or yoga

> use

> > them, and I haven't. In fact, I was first introduced to them in

> > asana practice in a workshop called Shakti Sadhana here in

> the Los

> > Angeles area, but the teacher was truly a buffoon, and I hadn't

> > really thought of the practice again until recently.

> >

> > I guess I'm also saying I don't want to have to become Hindu to

> > practice yoga. I think of it more the way Amma says about the

> > Divine - if you have a heart of love and compassion, you don't

> have

> > to pray to any God(dess); God is love and compassion. I am

> drawn to

> > the information available through yoga, and especially

> hathayoga.

> > This is not meant to disparage any religion or belief about what

> > yoga is. I prefer to let yoga, through hathayoga, teach me.

> > Otherwise, I feel a bit of pressure to conform to something that

> > doesn't really fit for me in terms of identifying with a

religion.

> >

> > I also haven't been practicing Ashtanga, the 8 limbs. I guess I

> have

> > been practicing only hathayoga, with most success from me

> coming

> > through the Viniyoga lineage.

> >

> > What about you? Are you a hathayoga practitioner, or

> Ashtanga?

> >

> >

> > , "manoj_menon"

> > <ammademon@g...> wrote:

> > > , "Mary Ann"

> > > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > > This distinction matters to me because I am not a Hindu,

> and

> > have no

> > > > intention of becoming Hindu, if that is even possible for

> > > > westerners.

> > >

> > > I don't see why it is not possible. if there can be western

> > buddhists

> > > (Robert Thurman, Jack Cornfield etc), there can be western

> hindus

> > too.

> > > As extreme examples, look at the late Sivaya Subramuniya

> Swami and

> > > Swami Satyananda Saraswati. There are many examples of

> > > reasonably-committed householder westerners too.

> > >

> > > > But I am a serious yoga student/practitioner (though I'm

> > > > sure purists would argue against this, esp. since I haven't

> yet

> > > > begun incorporating bija mantras into my practice

> > >

> > > Ashtanga-yoga, that was earliest organized by Patanjali in

> written

> > > form, does not *require* usage of bijas to make you a yoga

> > practioner.

> > > Although if you have a guru (and you usually must to practice

> it in

> > > its entirety), and (S)he imparts it you as part of the

practice,

> > then

> > > you must incorporate the bijas too.

> > >

> > > Essentially, ashtanga-yoga is about breathing in-and-out into

> the

> > goal

> > > using the techniques of mediation at its higher stages (all

> learned

> > > usually under the guidance of a qualified guru; to give you an

> > idea on

> > > the insistence of the guru for this practice, consider him as

a

> > coach

> > > of a sports team like basketball or football and give him that

> much

> > > (and possibly more) respect); anything else other than

> breathing

> > and

> > > meditation is an addition made by various gurus based on

> the

> > shisya's

> > > spiritual make-up.

> > >

> > > Now, Hatha-yoga takes the 3rd limb of the ashtanga - asana

> - to its

> > > extreme and has developed wonderful complicated

> exercises. Ashtanga

> > > focusses on moderation; to focus on all the 8 limbs to go into

> the

> > > goal. It is said that it is possible to achieve the goal using

> > Hatha

> > > alone, but the pitfalls (distractions) are many, and success

is

> > rare

> > > but usually spectacular.

> > >

> > > If you do not have a guru and are practising the 3rd anga

> (limb or

> > > component) of the ashtanga, i.e. asana, as you are drawn to

> it, I

> > do

> > > not think you need to worry about non-usage of bijas to stop

> you

> > from

> > > being qualified as a serious yoga student.

[Guest guest]

, "just4amusement"

>

> He also makes the point that western Hindus will not accept

> being at the bottom of the caste system.

>

>

 

CSSH (Colonial style sahib Hindus) LOL- give me a break.....

[Guest guest]

Your response is much too cavalier and comes from a lack of

knowleged of the potential of energetic practices. All too often it

is the ego that calls and not the path.

 

You have already started practicing Hatha Yoga. You need to be

aware of its power and the possible consequences of practicing

it. If you do not inform yourself on Prana, the Chakras, Talas,

Lokas and their inhabitants, the various types of Karma, Gunas,

the Atman and Brahman you will not have good experiences

from Prana surges, much less Kundalini rising, and you will not

have the necessary context within to understand the

consequences of Kundalini. You will be overwhelmed.

 

PLEASE do not treat Hatha Yoga or any other energetic practice

lightly. You do not have the resources at the moment to deal with

Kundalini. People go after these energetic practices unprepared

and forgetting that they actually work. The time to ask yourself

'What happens when these practices have an effect on my pranic

structure" is before those practices have that effect. Then you can

prepare, strengthen and purify yourself to facilitate the passage

of Kundalini when and if it arises.

 

To blindly engage in these energetic practices is to court

disaster.

 

To mitigate spiritual emergence problems you have to rise

above Tamas and Rajas and eventually even Sattwa. You have

to rise above ego and burn off Karma. Then you can start using

Bija Mantras, Mudras and Bandhas in your Hatha Yoga practice

and have some hope of an effortless and transformative

Kundalini rising.

 

If you do all of this and know about the topics outlined, then you,

in addition to being able to face Kunadalini rising, are, in fact, a

Hindu regardless of race, color, or previous creed.

 

 

, "Mary Ann"

<buttercookie61> wrote:

> Well, I think you should begin from where you are, and trust

that

> your path will call to you when you are ready to hear it.

>

> , "just4amusement"

> <just4amusement> wrote:

> > Whew! Where to begin?

> >

> > Hatha Yoga is not a form of physical exercise. As its name

> > clearly states it is about Prana and specifically about

Kundalini.

> >

> > If you are not looking at the Yamas and Niyamas in your life

then

> > not only are you not 'doing' Yoga but rather some form of

physical

> > exercise but more seriously you are endangering your

mental

> > and physical life. If Kundalini were to arise in you, your lack

> of

> > purification would result you experiencing some debilitation

from

> > the movement of Kundalini through your Karmic blocks,

perhaps

> > even permanent psychosis or death. It is not for nothing, that

> the

> > western psychiatric profession has finally acknowledged

> > 'spiritual emergence syndrome' where people such as you

who

> > do not prepare themselves for high Prana surges, much less

> > Kundalini, run into difficulty with their spiritual endeavors.

> There

> > are no short cuts to Self-Realization, one must prepare

> > themselves and remove ego, desire and karma influences,

> > replacing them with detachment, objectivity, equinimity,

selfless

> > service, and most importantly mumukshatwa, a one-pointed

> > focus on the Divine to the exclusion of all else.

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > , "Mary Ann"

> > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > Hi - I was kind of joking about the bija mantras in that

> > someone had

> > > posted recently that all serious students of hathayoga or

yoga

> > use

> > > them, and I haven't. In fact, I was first introduced to them in

> > > asana practice in a workshop called Shakti Sadhana here

in

> > the Los

> > > Angeles area, but the teacher was truly a buffoon, and I

hadn't

> > > really thought of the practice again until recently.

> > >

> > > I guess I'm also saying I don't want to have to become

Hindu to

> > > practice yoga. I think of it more the way Amma says about

the

> > > Divine - if you have a heart of love and compassion, you

don't

> > have

> > > to pray to any God(dess); God is love and compassion. I

am

> > drawn to

> > > the information available through yoga, and especially

> > hathayoga.

> > > This is not meant to disparage any religion or belief about

what

> > > yoga is. I prefer to let yoga, through hathayoga, teach me.

> > > Otherwise, I feel a bit of pressure to conform to something

that

> > > doesn't really fit for me in terms of identifying with a

> religion.

> > >

> > > I also haven't been practicing Ashtanga, the 8 limbs. I

guess I

> > have

> > > been practicing only hathayoga, with most success from

me

> > coming

> > > through the Viniyoga lineage.

> > >

> > > What about you? Are you a hathayoga practitioner, or

> > Ashtanga?

> > >

> > >

> > > ,

"manoj_menon"

> > > <ammademon@g...> wrote:

> > > > , "Mary Ann"

> > > > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > > > This distinction matters to me because I am not a

Hindu,

> > and

> > > have no

> > > > > intention of becoming Hindu, if that is even possible for

> > > > > westerners.

> > > >

> > > > I don't see why it is not possible. if there can be western

> > > buddhists

> > > > (Robert Thurman, Jack Cornfield etc), there can be

western

> > hindus

> > > too.

> > > > As extreme examples, look at the late Sivaya

Subramuniya

> > Swami and

> > > > Swami Satyananda Saraswati. There are many examples

of

> > > > reasonably-committed householder westerners too.

> > > >

> > > > > But I am a serious yoga student/practitioner (though I'm

> > > > > sure purists would argue against this, esp. since I

haven't

> > yet

> > > > > begun incorporating bija mantras into my practice

> > > >

> > > > Ashtanga-yoga, that was earliest organized by Patanjali

in

> > written

> > > > form, does not *require* usage of bijas to make you a

yoga

> > > practioner.

> > > > Although if you have a guru (and you usually must to

practice

> > it in

> > > > its entirety), and (S)he imparts it you as part of the

> practice,

> > > then

> > > > you must incorporate the bijas too.

> > > >

> > > > Essentially, ashtanga-yoga is about breathing in-and-out

into

> > the

> > > goal

> > > > using the techniques of mediation at its higher stages

(all

> > learned

> > > > usually under the guidance of a qualified guru; to give you

an

> > > idea on

> > > > the insistence of the guru for this practice, consider him

as

> a

> > > coach

> > > > of a sports team like basketball or football and give him

that

> > much

> > > > (and possibly more) respect); anything else other than

> > breathing

> > > and

> > > > meditation is an addition made by various gurus based

on

> > the

> > > shisya's

> > > > spiritual make-up.

> > > >

> > > > Now, Hatha-yoga takes the 3rd limb of the ashtanga -

asana

> > - to its

> > > > extreme and has developed wonderful complicated

> > exercises. Ashtanga

> > > > focusses on moderation; to focus on all the 8 limbs to go

into

> > the

> > > > goal. It is said that it is possible to achieve the goal using

> > > Hatha

> > > > alone, but the pitfalls (distractions) are many, and

success

> is

> > > rare

> > > > but usually spectacular.

> > > >

> > > > If you do not have a guru and are practising the 3rd anga

> > (limb or

> > > > component) of the ashtanga, i.e. asana, as you are

drawn to

> > it, I

> > > do

> > > > not think you need to worry about non-usage of bijas to

stop

> > you

> > > from

> > > > being qualified as a serious yoga student.

[Guest guest]

Hi - My response to you was due to your coming across as a

sanctimonious a-hole, so I'm disregarding your "warnings" in favor

of instruction and information from sources I respect and welcome.

 

 

 

, "just4amusement"

<just4amusement> wrote:

> Your response is much too cavalier and comes from a lack of

> knowleged of the potential of energetic practices. All too often

it

> is the ego that calls and not the path.

>

> You have already started practicing Hatha Yoga. You need to be

> aware of its power and the possible consequences of practicing

> it. If you do not inform yourself on Prana, the Chakras, Talas,

> Lokas and their inhabitants, the various types of Karma, Gunas,

> the Atman and Brahman you will not have good experiences

> from Prana surges, much less Kundalini rising, and you will not

> have the necessary context within to understand the

> consequences of Kundalini. You will be overwhelmed.

>

> PLEASE do not treat Hatha Yoga or any other energetic practice

> lightly. You do not have the resources at the moment to deal with

> Kundalini. People go after these energetic practices unprepared

> and forgetting that they actually work. The time to ask yourself

> 'What happens when these practices have an effect on my pranic

> structure" is before those practices have that effect. Then you

can

> prepare, strengthen and purify yourself to facilitate the passage

> of Kundalini when and if it arises.

>

> To blindly engage in these energetic practices is to court

> disaster.

>

> To mitigate spiritual emergence problems you have to rise

> above Tamas and Rajas and eventually even Sattwa. You have

> to rise above ego and burn off Karma. Then you can start using

> Bija Mantras, Mudras and Bandhas in your Hatha Yoga practice

> and have some hope of an effortless and transformative

> Kundalini rising.

>

> If you do all of this and know about the topics outlined, then

you,

> in addition to being able to face Kunadalini rising, are, in

fact, a

> Hindu regardless of race, color, or previous creed.

>

>

> , "Mary Ann"

> <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > Well, I think you should begin from where you are, and trust

> that

> > your path will call to you when you are ready to hear it.

> >

> > , "just4amusement"

> > <just4amusement> wrote:

> > > Whew! Where to begin?

> > >

> > > Hatha Yoga is not a form of physical exercise. As its name

> > > clearly states it is about Prana and specifically about

> Kundalini.

> > >

> > > If you are not looking at the Yamas and Niyamas in your life

> then

> > > not only are you not 'doing' Yoga but rather some form of

> physical

> > > exercise but more seriously you are endangering your

> mental

> > > and physical life. If Kundalini were to arise in you, your

lack

> > of

> > > purification would result you experiencing some debilitation

> from

> > > the movement of Kundalini through your Karmic blocks,

> perhaps

> > > even permanent psychosis or death. It is not for nothing,

that

> > the

> > > western psychiatric profession has finally acknowledged

> > > 'spiritual emergence syndrome' where people such as you

> who

> > > do not prepare themselves for high Prana surges, much less

> > > Kundalini, run into difficulty with their spiritual endeavors.

> > There

> > > are no short cuts to Self-Realization, one must prepare

> > > themselves and remove ego, desire and karma influences,

> > > replacing them with detachment, objectivity, equinimity,

> selfless

> > > service, and most importantly mumukshatwa, a one-pointed

> > > focus on the Divine to the exclusion of all else.

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , "Mary Ann"

> > > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > > Hi - I was kind of joking about the bija mantras in that

> > > someone had

> > > > posted recently that all serious students of hathayoga or

> yoga

> > > use

> > > > them, and I haven't. In fact, I was first introduced to them

in

> > > > asana practice in a workshop called Shakti Sadhana here

> in

> > > the Los

> > > > Angeles area, but the teacher was truly a buffoon, and I

> hadn't

> > > > really thought of the practice again until recently.

> > > >

> > > > I guess I'm also saying I don't want to have to become

> Hindu to

> > > > practice yoga. I think of it more the way Amma says about

> the

> > > > Divine - if you have a heart of love and compassion, you

> don't

> > > have

> > > > to pray to any God(dess); God is love and compassion. I

> am

> > > drawn to

> > > > the information available through yoga, and especially

> > > hathayoga.

> > > > This is not meant to disparage any religion or belief about

> what

> > > > yoga is. I prefer to let yoga, through hathayoga, teach me.

> > > > Otherwise, I feel a bit of pressure to conform to something

> that

> > > > doesn't really fit for me in terms of identifying with a

> > religion.

> > > >

> > > > I also haven't been practicing Ashtanga, the 8 limbs. I

> guess I

> > > have

> > > > been practicing only hathayoga, with most success from

> me

> > > coming

> > > > through the Viniyoga lineage.

> > > >

> > > > What about you? Are you a hathayoga practitioner, or

> > > Ashtanga?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ,

> "manoj_menon"

> > > > <ammademon@g...> wrote:

> > > > > , "Mary Ann"

> > > > > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > > > > This distinction matters to me because I am not a

> Hindu,

> > > and

> > > > have no

> > > > > > intention of becoming Hindu, if that is even possible

for

> > > > > > westerners.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't see why it is not possible. if there can be

western

> > > > buddhists

> > > > > (Robert Thurman, Jack Cornfield etc), there can be

> western

> > > hindus

> > > > too.

> > > > > As extreme examples, look at the late Sivaya

> Subramuniya

> > > Swami and

> > > > > Swami Satyananda Saraswati. There are many examples

> of

> > > > > reasonably-committed householder westerners too.

> > > > >

> > > > > > But I am a serious yoga student/practitioner (though I'm

> > > > > > sure purists would argue against this, esp. since I

> haven't

> > > yet

> > > > > > begun incorporating bija mantras into my practice

> > > > >

> > > > > Ashtanga-yoga, that was earliest organized by Patanjali

> in

> > > written

> > > > > form, does not *require* usage of bijas to make you a

> yoga

> > > > practioner.

> > > > > Although if you have a guru (and you usually must to

> practice

> > > it in

> > > > > its entirety), and (S)he imparts it you as part of the

> > practice,

> > > > then

> > > > > you must incorporate the bijas too.

> > > > >

> > > > > Essentially, ashtanga-yoga is about breathing in-and-out

> into

> > > the

> > > > goal

> > > > > using the techniques of mediation at its higher stages

> (all

> > > learned

> > > > > usually under the guidance of a qualified guru; to give

you

> an

> > > > idea on

> > > > > the insistence of the guru for this practice, consider him

> as

> > a

> > > > coach

> > > > > of a sports team like basketball or football and give him

> that

> > > much

> > > > > (and possibly more) respect); anything else other than

> > > breathing

> > > > and

> > > > > meditation is an addition made by various gurus based

> on

> > > the

> > > > shisya's

> > > > > spiritual make-up.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, Hatha-yoga takes the 3rd limb of the ashtanga -

> asana

> > > - to its

> > > > > extreme and has developed wonderful complicated

> > > exercises. Ashtanga

> > > > > focusses on moderation; to focus on all the 8 limbs to go

> into

> > > the

> > > > > goal. It is said that it is possible to achieve the goal

using

> > > > Hatha

> > > > > alone, but the pitfalls (distractions) are many, and

> success

> > is

> > > > rare

> > > > > but usually spectacular.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you do not have a guru and are practising the 3rd anga

> > > (limb or

> > > > > component) of the ashtanga, i.e. asana, as you are

> drawn to

> > > it, I

> > > > do

> > > > > not think you need to worry about non-usage of bijas to

> stop

> > > you

> > > > from

> > > > > being qualified as a serious yoga student.

[Guest guest]

Smart thinking Mary Ann! Glad to see you are on the right track.

-

Mary Ann

Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:56 AM

Re: Modern 'Mahishasura Mardini' Sells For Record

$1.54 Million

 

 

Hi - My response to you was due to your coming across as a

sanctimonious a-hole, so I'm disregarding your "warnings" in favor

of instruction and information from sources I respect and welcome.

 

 

 

, "just4amusement"

<just4amusement> wrote:

> Your response is much too cavalier and comes from a lack of

> knowleged of the potential of energetic practices. All too often

it

> is the ego that calls and not the path.

>

> You have already started practicing Hatha Yoga. You need to be

> aware of its power and the possible consequences of practicing

> it. If you do not inform yourself on Prana, the Chakras, Talas,

> Lokas and their inhabitants, the various types of Karma, Gunas,

> the Atman and Brahman you will not have good experiences

> from Prana surges, much less Kundalini rising, and you will not

> have the necessary context within to understand the

> consequences of Kundalini. You will be overwhelmed.

>

> PLEASE do not treat Hatha Yoga or any other energetic practice

> lightly. You do not have the resources at the moment to deal with

> Kundalini. People go after these energetic practices unprepared

> and forgetting that they actually work. The time to ask yourself

> 'What happens when these practices have an effect on my pranic

> structure" is before those practices have that effect. Then you

can

> prepare, strengthen and purify yourself to facilitate the passage

> of Kundalini when and if it arises.

>

> To blindly engage in these energetic practices is to court

> disaster.

>

> To mitigate spiritual emergence problems you have to rise

> above Tamas and Rajas and eventually even Sattwa. You have

> to rise above ego and burn off Karma. Then you can start using

> Bija Mantras, Mudras and Bandhas in your Hatha Yoga practice

> and have some hope of an effortless and transformative

> Kundalini rising.

>

> If you do all of this and know about the topics outlined, then

you,

> in addition to being able to face Kunadalini rising, are, in

fact, a

> Hindu regardless of race, color, or previous creed.

>

>

> , "Mary Ann"

> <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > Well, I think you should begin from where you are, and trust

> that

> > your path will call to you when you are ready to hear it.

> >

> > , "just4amusement"

> > <just4amusement> wrote:

> > > Whew! Where to begin?

> > >

> > > Hatha Yoga is not a form of physical exercise. As its name

> > > clearly states it is about Prana and specifically about

> Kundalini.

> > >

> > > If you are not looking at the Yamas and Niyamas in your life

> then

> > > not only are you not 'doing' Yoga but rather some form of

> physical

> > > exercise but more seriously you are endangering your

> mental

> > > and physical life. If Kundalini were to arise in you, your

lack

> > of

> > > purification would result you experiencing some debilitation

> from

> > > the movement of Kundalini through your Karmic blocks,

> perhaps

> > > even permanent psychosis or death. It is not for nothing,

that

> > the

> > > western psychiatric profession has finally acknowledged

> > > 'spiritual emergence syndrome' where people such as you

> who

> > > do not prepare themselves for high Prana surges, much less

> > > Kundalini, run into difficulty with their spiritual endeavors.

> > There

> > > are no short cuts to Self-Realization, one must prepare

> > > themselves and remove ego, desire and karma influences,

> > > replacing them with detachment, objectivity, equinimity,

> selfless

> > > service, and most importantly mumukshatwa, a one-pointed

> > > focus on the Divine to the exclusion of all else.

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , "Mary Ann"

> > > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > > Hi - I was kind of joking about the bija mantras in that

> > > someone had

> > > > posted recently that all serious students of hathayoga or

> yoga

> > > use

> > > > them, and I haven't. In fact, I was first introduced to them

in

> > > > asana practice in a workshop called Shakti Sadhana here

> in

> > > the Los

> > > > Angeles area, but the teacher was truly a buffoon, and I

> hadn't

> > > > really thought of the practice again until recently.

> > > >

> > > > I guess I'm also saying I don't want to have to become

> Hindu to

> > > > practice yoga. I think of it more the way Amma says about

> the

> > > > Divine - if you have a heart of love and compassion, you

> don't

> > > have

> > > > to pray to any God(dess); God is love and compassion. I

> am

> > > drawn to

> > > > the information available through yoga, and especially

> > > hathayoga.

> > > > This is not meant to disparage any religion or belief about

> what

> > > > yoga is. I prefer to let yoga, through hathayoga, teach me.

> > > > Otherwise, I feel a bit of pressure to conform to something

> that

> > > > doesn't really fit for me in terms of identifying with a

> > religion.

> > > >

> > > > I also haven't been practicing Ashtanga, the 8 limbs. I

> guess I

> > > have

> > > > been practicing only hathayoga, with most success from

> me

> > > coming

> > > > through the Viniyoga lineage.

> > > >

> > > > What about you? Are you a hathayoga practitioner, or

> > > Ashtanga?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ,

> "manoj_menon"

> > > > <ammademon@g...> wrote:

> > > > > , "Mary Ann"

> > > > > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > > > > This distinction matters to me because I am not a

> Hindu,

> > > and

> > > > have no

> > > > > > intention of becoming Hindu, if that is even possible

for

> > > > > > westerners.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't see why it is not possible. if there can be

western

> > > > buddhists

> > > > > (Robert Thurman, Jack Cornfield etc), there can be

> western

> > > hindus

> > > > too.

> > > > > As extreme examples, look at the late Sivaya

> Subramuniya

> > > Swami and

> > > > > Swami Satyananda Saraswati. There are many examples

> of

> > > > > reasonably-committed householder westerners too.

> > > > >

> > > > > > But I am a serious yoga student/practitioner (though I'm

> > > > > > sure purists would argue against this, esp. since I

> haven't

> > > yet

> > > > > > begun incorporating bija mantras into my practice

> > > > >

> > > > > Ashtanga-yoga, that was earliest organized by Patanjali

> in

> > > written

> > > > > form, does not *require* usage of bijas to make you a

> yoga

> > > > practioner.

> > > > > Although if you have a guru (and you usually must to

> practice

> > > it in

> > > > > its entirety), and (S)he imparts it you as part of the

> > practice,

> > > > then

> > > > > you must incorporate the bijas too.

> > > > >

> > > > > Essentially, ashtanga-yoga is about breathing in-and-out

> into

> > > the

> > > > goal

> > > > > using the techniques of mediation at its higher stages

> (all

> > > learned

> > > > > usually under the guidance of a qualified guru; to give

you

> an

> > > > idea on

> > > > > the insistence of the guru for this practice, consider him

> as

> > a

> > > > coach

> > > > > of a sports team like basketball or football and give him

> that

> > > much

> > > > > (and possibly more) respect); anything else other than

> > > breathing

> > > > and

> > > > > meditation is an addition made by various gurus based

> on

> > > the

> > > > shisya's

> > > > > spiritual make-up.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, Hatha-yoga takes the 3rd limb of the ashtanga -

> asana

> > > - to its

> > > > > extreme and has developed wonderful complicated

> > > exercises. Ashtanga

> > > > > focusses on moderation; to focus on all the 8 limbs to go

> into

> > > the

> > > > > goal. It is said that it is possible to achieve the goal

using

> > > > Hatha

> > > > > alone, but the pitfalls (distractions) are many, and

> success

> > is

> > > > rare

> > > > > but usually spectacular.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you do not have a guru and are practising the 3rd anga

> > > (limb or

> > > > > component) of the ashtanga, i.e. asana, as you are

> drawn to

> > > it, I

> > > > do

> > > > > not think you need to worry about non-usage of bijas to

> stop

> > > you

> > > > from

> > > > > being qualified as a serious yoga student.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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