Serpents and Its Significant in Shaktism

[Guest guest]

Serpent Symbolism in the Mythologies of Andhra Folk Goddesses

 

 

Serpent worship and its religious and symbolic significance in India

has been written about extensively by many scholars in the past

since the late 19th century. The source material for these studies

was mostly sculptures and sometimes paintings, the myths of Sanskrit

texts (chiefly those describing the exploits of Vishnu, Krishna and

Siva) and occasional field reports of devotees who worship serpents.

Remarkably, however, these previous studies do not focus on the

intimate relationship that exists between village goddesses and

serpent lore. In my own field work in villages and at goddess

temples in Andhra Pradesh, I noted that understanding this

connection is crucial to ascertaining the socio-religious

significance of the goddess in her cultic context and that the

connection between serpents and village goddesses is perhaps even

more extensive than in relation to male deities.

 

In this paper I will attempt to answer a series of questions

including: Why do village people visualize their goddesses in

serpent form? That is, what are the perceived affinities between the

powers of the serpent and the powers of the goddess which render the

association so complete? My answers will address issues of gender,

sexuality, fertility and cosmogony. I will determine how specific my

understanding is to Andhra or whether it is also prevalent

throughout other cultural regions of India with the same intensity.

I will also trace out the history of viewing the divine as a serpent

with an eye toward determining early reasons behind it.

 

Sree Padma, Bowdoin College

Association of South Asian Studies

Abstracts from 1998 AAS Annual Meeting

[Guest guest]

"Kundala means coiled. The power is the Goddess [Devi] Kundalini or

that which is coiled, for Her form is that of a coiled and sleeping

serpent in the lowest bodily center, at the base of the spinal column,

until by means described She is aroused in that Yoga which is names

after Her. Kundalini is the Divine Cosmic Energy in bodies.

>From The Serpent Power, by Sir John Woodroffe, 1919

 

See also

: http://www.shaktisadhana.org/Photo%20Gallery/cakra/muladhara.html

[Guest guest]

Namaskaar

 

I tend to agree with this, actually when you view this

in meditation she appears quite annoyed on being

roused from sleep and is black in colour in the base

chakra but when she begins to move upward she appears

as a pleasing white cobra until she transforms into a

stunningly beautiful woman !

 

Dhanyavaad

 

Pandit Devindra Maharaj

 

 

 

--- NMadasamy <nmadasamy

wrote:

> "Kundala means coiled. The power is the Goddess

> [Devi] Kundalini or

> that which is coiled, for Her form is that of a

> coiled and sleeping

> serpent in the lowest bodily center, at the base of

> the spinal column,

> until by means described She is aroused in that Yoga

> which is names

> after Her. Kundalini is the Divine Cosmic Energy in

> bodies.

>

> From The Serpent Power, by Sir John Woodroffe, 1919

>

> See also

> :

>

http://www.shaktisadhana.org/Photo%20Gallery/cakra/muladhara.html

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste

Snake worship is more prevelent in Parashurama Kshetra,or southren

part of westren Ghat i.e Kerala and Tulunad . Large number of snakes

in the area and the necesity to coexist with them might have led to

snake worship.Snake worship here has some peculiarities which are not

found in other parts of India, Nagamandala puja, Naga bana

(vana),etc.It is said that the practice of keeping Naga stones

originated in this area.

In other parts of India Naga is related to gods through legends .

Like Vasuki and vishnu, Sarpa and shiva,Ganapati and snake(he used it

as belt), Subramanya and Vasuki,Krisha and Kalinga.Even in

mahabaratha Nahusha takes birth as a huge snake.In childhood Bhima is

thrown in to a lake and goes to Nagaloka. There are some amazing

stories.Snakes are notorious for their vegence(in stories and

films!!)

I wonder are there any such stories in Shakta mythology or does they

have any significance in any Tantric rituals.(other than Kundalini

which is quite symbolic).

 

KHK.Prasad.

 

 

 

, "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...>

wrote:

> Serpent Symbolism in the Mythologies of Andhra Folk Goddesses

>

>

> Serpent worship and its religious and symbolic significance in

India

> has been written about extensively by many scholars in the past

> since the late 19th century. The p.source material for these

studies

> was mostly sculptures and sometimes paintings, the myths of

Sanskrit

> texts (chiefly those describing the exploits of Vishnu, Krishna and

> Siva) and occasional field reports of devotees who worship

serpents.

> Remarkably, however, these previous studies do not focus on the

> intimate relationship that exists between village goddesses and

> serpent lore. In my own field work in villages and at goddess

> temples in Andhra Pradesh, I noted that understanding this

> connection is crucial to ascertaining the socio-religious

> significance of the goddess in her cultic context and that the

> connection between serpents and village goddesses is perhaps even

> more extensive than in relation to male deities.

>

> In this paper I will attempt to answer a series of questions

> including: Why do village people visualize their goddesses in

> serpent form? That is, what are the perceived affinities between

the

> powers of the serpent and the powers of the goddess which render

the

> association so complete? My answers will address issues of gender,

> sexuality, fertility and cosmogony. I will determine how specific

my

> understanding is to Andhra or whether it is also prevalent

> throughout other cultural regions of India with the same intensity.

> I will also trace out the history of viewing the divine as a

serpent

> with an eye toward determining early reasons behind it.

>

> Sree Padma, Bowdoin College

> Association of South Asian Studies

> Abstracts from 1998 AAS Annual Meeting

[Guest guest]

Back in the 80´s i was researching the origins of the natha

sampradaya in nepala. Its founders visit to nepal ist still

commemorated in a ratha yatra dedicated to red matsyendranatha.

excerpt from my paper on the Nathas in Nepala:

"The smaller yearly festival of Ratha jatra,-where the god is carried

with a chariot through the city streets, is dedicated to Red

Matsyendra. This festival connects with a legend of Gorakshanath

keeping the Nagas under control by sitting on them so that no rain

fell for a long time in the valley. The inhabitants then asked

Matsyendra to come to Nepal. Goraksha rose up from his meditation to

greet his Guru, so that the Nagas fled and rain fell again. So Red

Matsyendra is propitiated at the jatra to bring rain." Full text

http://www.shivashakti.com/werner.htm

 

There are several others Legends which do not mention Gorakshanatha

but only talk about a 12 year draught that was ended by the powers of

Mahayogi Matsyendranatha.

 

In one Legend Matsyendranath left Assam in the form of a black bee

held in a golden ceremonial Kalasha To this day the Newaris

still avoid killing these insects and priests worship the golden

vessel as the God of Rain and Harvest.

Actually the bee must bee caught to cause the rainfall (The bee being

the mind with the six legs equalling the 6 sense nadis which being

captured held still in the kalasha and connected to the guru chakra

eats the Honey=amritkala=Rainfall) Bandhudatta who propiated

Matsyendranatha later established the murti of red matsyendranatha

and instead of dying vanished into it. (Matsyendrapadyasatakam

written by Nilakantha dated 1677) The Nepali translation mentions

Gorakhnatha binding the Nagas the sanskrit version does not.

 

The idol is housed in summer in Bungamati wearing a jeweled vest

which is asscociated with the nagas and the rainfall it is held aloft

by the pujari during yatra, another link to the shakta tradition is

that the Patan Kumari has to witness this celebration while the King

is not allowed to watch. This strengthens the bond between the

Matsyendranatha cult and the very important and secret shakta Cult of

taleju devi (ie. Kumari) this cult is very powerful and actually

invests the King ritually with the full spiritual force to reign over

the Valley. (which Valley is considered to form an astapadma)

Again the association of the festival with general fertiltiy can be

seen in the Highlights of the Ratha:

As the chariot crosses the Nakhu river, snakes of all sizes and

colors are to flock around the chariot wheels.

In Lagankhel, a priest throws a coconut from the chariot and the man

who catches it is assured of having a son.

>From Lagankhel to Thati - all one hundred meters - some 300 or 400

single women pull the chariot for about half an hour.

 

The Naga worship is apparently very old and connected with fertility

and rainfall.

Matsyendranaha being the founder of not only the Natha Sampradaya but

also of the Yogini Kaula and is respected by all Kaulas and original

Shaktas as the adi or original first Guru of the current Yuga because

he rescued the Kaula knowledge that was lost during the deluge

out of the ocean he being in the form of a fish.

 

There is also interesting oral lore (which shows the connection of

Srividya to natha sampradaya) of the superhuman birth of several

nathas by the union of shiva and Lalita MAhatripurasundari: Vishnu,

in the form of Mohini as an irresistible dancing girl, appeared

before Shiva so that he ejaculated, he held every drop of semen in

his hand and fed it to a fish.

This Fish was offered to the Queen of Assam, She impregnated with

the Sperm gave birth to Natha Gurus (She also was considered to be

the Wife of Matsyendranatha) this serves to show the supernatural

birth of the sons of Matsyendrantha who founded the different

schools of Kaula (according to the Kaula Jnanan Nirnaya)

There is another Legend containing very similiar kaula elements: In

this version Vishnu in the form of Mohini washes Shivas semen of his

hand after he ejaculated into it,and a fish eats it, this fish gives

birth to Matsyendranatha, Vishnu still had some semen stuck to his

hand so he wipes it off in cow dung, out of this Cow dung

Gorakhshanath is born.

 

Of course there is the Naga Panchami Festival in Nepala but this has

no such apparent connection to Shakta or Kaula Philosophy as far as

i know.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

, "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...>

wrote:

> Serpent Symbolism in the Mythologies of Andhra Folk Goddesses

>

>

> Serpent worship and its religious and symbolic significance in

India

> has been written about extensively by many scholars in the past

> since the late 19th century. The source material for these studies

> was mostly sculptures and sometimes paintings, the myths of

Sanskrit

> texts (chiefly those describing the exploits of Vishnu, Krishna and

> Siva) and occasional field reports of devotees who worship

serpents.

> Remarkably, however, these previous studies do not focus on the

> intimate relationship that exists between village goddesses and

> serpent lore. In my own field work in villages and at goddess

> temples in Andhra Pradesh, I noted that understanding this

> connection is crucial to ascertaining the socio-religious

> significance of the goddess in her cultic context and that the

> connection between serpents and village goddesses is perhaps even

> more extensive than in relation to male deities.

>

> In this paper I will attempt to answer a series of questions

> including: Why do village people visualize their goddesses in

> serpent form? That is, what are the perceived affinities between

the

> powers of the serpent and the powers of the goddess which render

the

> association so complete? My answers will address issues of gender,

> sexuality, fertility and cosmogony. I will determine how specific

my

> understanding is to Andhra or whether it is also prevalent

> throughout other cultural regions of India with the same intensity.

> I will also trace out the history of viewing the divine as a

serpent

> with an eye toward determining early reasons behind it.

>

> Sree Padma, Bowdoin College

> Association of South Asian Studies

> Abstracts from 1998 AAS Annual Meeting

[Guest guest]

Namaskaar mahahradanathaji

 

I too am interested in Taleju, I was fortunate to see

a documentary on Navartri Puja in Nepala and wanted to

get more information on this. I am in the process of

rewriting a paper on Navaratri and would greatly

appreciate information on this form of Devi, also if

you have any on Jvalamukhi, Tvarita, Indrakshi,

svapnesvari and Ucchista Chandali - These are forms of

the Goddess where very little information is available

to me. Incidentally I have a copy of the Kaula Gyana

Nirnaya and was in the process of getting the

Vamakesvari matam and Kumari tantras however never

been able to lay hands on it. Any ideas where I may be

able to look.

 

Dhanyavaad

Pandit Devindra Maharaj

 

--- mahahradanatha <mahahradanatha wrote:

> Back in the 80´s i was researching the origins of

> the natha

> sampradaya in nepala. Its founders visit to nepal

> ist still

> commemorated in a ratha yatra dedicated to red

> matsyendranatha.

> excerpt from my paper on the Nathas in Nepala:

> "The smaller yearly festival of Ratha jatra,-where

> the god is carried

> with a chariot through the city streets, is

> dedicated to Red

> Matsyendra. This festival connects with a legend of

> Gorakshanath

> keeping the Nagas under control by sitting on them

> so that no rain

> fell for a long time in the valley. The inhabitants

> then asked

> Matsyendra to come to Nepal. Goraksha rose up from

> his meditation to

> greet his Guru, so that the Nagas fled and rain fell

> again. So Red

> Matsyendra is propitiated at the jatra to bring

> rain." Full text

> http://www.shivashakti.com/werner.htm

>

[Guest guest]

A beautiful website on taleju devi

 

http://kumari.puellula.com

 

About the tantras you mention i believe all of them have been in

Print but are out of print now i think, kumari tantra which i have

never heard of before i don´t know if it ever was edited and printed

or if it exists at all.

Jwalamukhi is one of the nitya deities and one of the 51 pitha

goddesses her shrine is in manali area and consist of a natural fire

that exists by itself and cannot be extinguished. Muslim invaders

tried to quench the flames with big iron lids but they exploded in

pieces and the flames ignited again. Twarita is a pivotal nitya also

and a huntress with connection to sabari, like Len said svapnesvari

is a form of Varahi, ucchista chandali is eating all ritual leftovers

also mantra and mudra and prana leftovers. She helps to keep unwanted

energies and stupid people away from her devotees by creating the

illusion that her devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact

this is only divine illusion to protect the knowledge from the

dualists.

 

, Dev Maharaj <dev_maharaj>

wrote:

> Namaskaar mahahradanathaji

>

> I too am interested in Taleju, I was fortunate to see

> a documentary on Navartri Puja in Nepala and wanted to

> get more information on this. I am in the process of

> rewriting a paper on Navaratri and would greatly

> appreciate information on this form of Devi, also if

> you have any on Jvalamukhi, Tvarita, Indrakshi,

> svapnesvari and Ucchista Chandali - These are forms of

> the Goddess where very little information is available

> to me. Incidentally I have a copy of the Kaula Gyana

> Nirnaya and was in the process of getting the

> Vamakesvari matam and Kumari tantras however never

> been able to lay hands on it. Any ideas where I may be

> able to look.

>

> Dhanyavaad

> Pandit Devindra Maharaj

>

> --- mahahradanatha <mahahradanatha> wrote:

>

> > Back in the 80´s i was researching the origins of

> > the natha

> > sampradaya in nepala. Its founders visit to nepal

> > ist still

> > commemorated in a ratha yatra dedicated to red

> > matsyendranatha.

> > excerpt from my paper on the Nathas in Nepala:

> > "The smaller yearly festival of Ratha jatra,-where

> > the god is carried

> > with a chariot through the city streets, is

> > dedicated to Red

> > Matsyendra. This festival connects with a legend of

> > Gorakshanath

> > keeping the Nagas under control by sitting on them

> > so that no rain

> > fell for a long time in the valley. The inhabitants

> > then asked

> > Matsyendra to come to Nepal. Goraksha rose up from

> > his meditation to

> > greet his Guru, so that the Nagas fled and rain fell

> > again. So Red

> > Matsyendra is propitiated at the jatra to bring

> > rain." Full text

> > http://www.shivashakti.com/werner.htm

> >

[Guest guest]

, "mahahradanatha"

<mahahradanatha> wrote:

A beautiful website on taleju devi

 

http://kumari.puellula.com

 

About the tantras you mention i believe all of them have been in

Print but are out of print now i think, kumari tantra which i have

never heard of before i don´t know if it ever was edited and printed

or if it exists at all. Jwalamukhi is one of the nitya deities and

one of the 51 pitha goddesses her shrine is in manali area and

consist of a natural fire that exists by itself and cannot be

extinguished. Muslim invaders tried to quench the flames with big

iron lids but they exploded in pieces and the flames ignited again.

Twarita is a pivotal nitya also and a huntress with connection to

sabari, like Len said svapnesvari is a form of Varahi, ucchista

chandali is eating all ritual leftovers also mantra and mudra and

prana leftovers. She helps to keep unwanted energies and stupid

people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that her

devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is only divine

illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists.

 

 

 

 

Hahhaa this is good. Thank you mahahradanatha

[Guest guest]

Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted energies and stupid

people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that her

devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is only divine

illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists.

 

 

Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and purposely make it

look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate between the

real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This you cant learn

from the book. It must come from first hand experience and from the

master themselves.

[Guest guest]

Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There are a lot of

people out there who think they know it all, and that when others don't

recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist, or

unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted energies away, the

great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always get what you

want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you get what you

need."

 

, "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...>

wrote:

> Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted energies and stupid

> people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that her

> devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is only divine

> illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists.

>

>

> Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and purposely make

it

> look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate between the

> real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This you cant learn

> from the book. It must come from first hand experience and from the

> master themselves.

[Guest guest]

It is just a function of this devi. Often people mistake the cover

for the content, there can be worthwhile content in a simple cover.

The devi takes that which we throw away and puts it to an use.

This is an internal function representing transformation of that

which is unhealthy to something which is useful and good.

 

What you are talking about is self righteousness which is the normal

daily state of the average human mind, not a function of ucchista

candali.

 

The ugly appearance of the Gurus connected to the kaula sampradaya is

legendary.

In fact also Shiva himself often appears in a very ugly outfit, so

ugly that he is not invited to the legendary sacrifice of daksha

which caused problems that eventually led to the death of sati and

the appeareance of the devis body parts in the holy places-like the

tongue in jawalamukhi pith etc.

 

 

, "Mary Ann"

<buttercookie61> wrote:

> Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There are a lot of

> people out there who think they know it all, and that when others

don't

> recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist, or

> unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted energies away,

the

> great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always get what

you

> want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you get what you

> need."

>

> , "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...>

> wrote:

> > Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted energies and

stupid

> > people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that her

> > devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is only

divine

> > illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists.

> >

> >

> > Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and purposely

make

> it

> > look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate between

the

> > real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This you cant

learn

> > from the book. It must come from first hand experience and from

the

> > master themselves.

[Guest guest]

Today in the parking garage for my office, the daily quote posted at

the entry says: "Beware as long as you live of judging people by

appearances." -- Jean de la Fontaine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine

 

But are you saying that Shiva made a mistake in choosing to appear

that way?

 

 

 

, "mahahradanatha"

<mahahradanatha> wrote:

> It is just a function of this devi. Often people mistake the cover

> for the content, there can be worthwhile content in a simple cover.

> The devi takes that which we throw away and puts it to an use.

> This is an internal function representing transformation of that

> which is unhealthy to something which is useful and good.

>

> What you are talking about is self righteousness which is the

normal

> daily state of the average human mind, not a function of ucchista

> candali.

>

> The ugly appearance of the Gurus connected to the kaula sampradaya

is

> legendary.

> In fact also Shiva himself often appears in a very ugly outfit, so

> ugly that he is not invited to the legendary sacrifice of daksha

> which caused problems that eventually led to the death of sati and

> the appeareance of the devis body parts in the holy places-like the

> tongue in jawalamukhi pith etc.

>

>

> , "Mary Ann"

> <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There are a lot of

> > people out there who think they know it all, and that when others

> don't

> > recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist, or

> > unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted energies away,

> the

> > great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always get what

> you

> > want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you get what

you

> > need."

> >

> > , "NMadasamy"

<nmadasamy@s...>

> > wrote:

> > > Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted energies and

> stupid

> > > people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that her

> > > devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is only

> divine

> > > illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists.

> > >

> > >

> > > Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and purposely

> make

> > it

> > > look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate between

> the

> > > real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This you cant

> learn

> > > from the book. It must come from first hand experience and from

> the

> > > master themselves.

[Guest guest]

Namaskaar Mary Ann

 

I just wanted to point you a couple of things, when a person perceives a

Devi/devatas a lot of the "ugliness" that is seen is actually emanating from

the perceivers mind - due to samskaars vasaanas and mental clutter. Some of the

wrathful forms appear quite

grotesque but that is as a result of the amount of power and energy that they

possess. This is how it appears to a developing mind that is unaware of this.

 

Also to judge people is to form an opinion by what they radiate to others. Many

times however people although well intentioned may not know how to express

themselves in a manner that is acceptable to all and sundry and because they

lack this they appear to be hostile, rude (and a host of other adjectives) etc.

Some of the most erudite opinions that I have heard have not come from scholars

but from very simple people who really wanted to find out things. You see the

problem with teaching people who already KNOW is that they already "know" !

 

Devindra Maharaj

[Guest guest]

Yes about that transformation of negative emotional "leftovers"

 

Repression causes sicknesses

Dumping them on other means loosing important parts of your own

vitality and you will eventually get them thrown back at you.

another quote from the pop culture:) jesus died for somebodys sins

but not mine, they belong to me. patti smith

 

Shiva is an outlaw he takes drugs even murdered brahma the karma of

this killing caused him to appear in the guise of Bhairava to roam

the earth with a skull stuck to his hand. He is adressed as the Lord

of thieves. But all these deeds create possibilities for other beings

of achieving freedom from rebirth. Time starts with an imbalance, if

the deities want to appear to us and other imbalanced beings they

must also create imabalances otherwise we would not see them, but

these imbalanced forms of the gods are willful, playful

manifestations. They are happening out of their own will.

(sanskrit:sveccha) this own will is one of the primal shaktis, human

beings also have this (icchha)shakti but usually in avery limited

form.

She is one of the triad Icchha Jnana Kriya, Will Mind and Deed

 

 

 

, "Mary Ann"

<buttercookie61> wrote:

> Today in the parking garage for my office, the daily quote posted

at

> the entry says: "Beware as long as you live of judging people by

> appearances." -- Jean de la Fontaine

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine

>

> But are you saying that Shiva made a mistake in choosing to appear

> that way?

>

>

>

> , "mahahradanatha"

> <mahahradanatha> wrote:

> > It is just a function of this devi. Often people mistake the

cover

> > for the content, there can be worthwhile content in a simple

cover.

> > The devi takes that which we throw away and puts it to an use.

> > This is an internal function representing transformation of that

> > which is unhealthy to something which is useful and good.

> >

> > What you are talking about is self righteousness which is the

> normal

> > daily state of the average human mind, not a function of

ucchista

> > candali.

> >

> > The ugly appearance of the Gurus connected to the kaula

sampradaya

> is

> > legendary.

> > In fact also Shiva himself often appears in a very ugly outfit,

so

> > ugly that he is not invited to the legendary sacrifice of daksha

> > which caused problems that eventually led to the death of sati

and

> > the appeareance of the devis body parts in the holy places-like

the

> > tongue in jawalamukhi pith etc.

> >

> >

> > , "Mary Ann"

> > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There are a lot

of

> > > people out there who think they know it all, and that when

others

> > don't

> > > recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist, or

> > > unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted energies

away,

> > the

> > > great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always get

what

> > you

> > > want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you get what

> you

> > > need."

> > >

> > > , "NMadasamy"

> <nmadasamy@s...>

> > > wrote:

> > > > Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted energies and

> > stupid

> > > > people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that

her

> > > > devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is only

> > divine

> > > > illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and

purposely

> > make

> > > it

> > > > look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate

between

> > the

> > > > real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This you cant

> > learn

> > > > from the book. It must come from first hand experience and

from

> > the

> > > > master themselves.

[Guest guest]

Hi Mahahradanatha - Yes, I love those Patti Smith lines

(from "Gloria" on the Horses album for anyone out there who might

want to give that a listen if unafamiliar). I think by Smith's

statement, Jesus died, really, for his own sins, or choices.

 

Re the notion that Shiva's bad behaviors "create possibilities for

other beings

> of achieving freedom from rebirth" - this leaves room for people to

allow their mental imbalances to go unchecked. I am speaking

specifically of a man I know who identifies with Shiva and is

purposefully "acting out" so he can help others transform. Meanwhile,

he gets kicked out of groups, alienates folks, etc. I consider him to

have a "Jesus complex" in that he is sacrificing himself for what he

thinks is our benefit (I'm in a group he's been part of).

 

To take the idea to another extreme, you might say a woman could

thank her rapist b/c she had to do so much healing work after the

rape - and of course, this is truly a misapplication of spiritual

principles. But I feel spiritual principles have been misapplied this

way for millenia. And I get a hint of that in what you said about

Shiva's behavior's effect on others. Whatever the behavior's effect

on others, I think Shiva needs to just be responsible for his own

choices, and same with the rest of us, Devis/devatas or humans.

 

 

, "mahahradanatha"

<mahahradanatha> wrote:

> Yes about that transformation of negative emotional "leftovers"

>

> Repression causes sicknesses

> Dumping them on other means loosing important parts of your own

> vitality and you will eventually get them thrown back at you.

> another quote from the pop culture:) jesus died for somebodys sins

> but not mine, they belong to me. patti smith

>

> Shiva is an outlaw he takes drugs even murdered brahma the karma

of

> this killing caused him to appear in the guise of Bhairava to roam

> the earth with a skull stuck to his hand. He is adressed as the

Lord

> of thieves. But all these deeds create possibilities for other

beings

> of achieving freedom from rebirth. Time starts with an imbalance,

if

> the deities want to appear to us and other imbalanced beings they

> must also create imabalances otherwise we would not see them, but

> these imbalanced forms of the gods are willful, playful

> manifestations. They are happening out of their own will.

> (sanskrit:sveccha) this own will is one of the primal shaktis,

human

> beings also have this (icchha)shakti but usually in avery limited

> form.

> She is one of the triad Icchha Jnana Kriya, Will Mind and Deed

>

>

>

> , "Mary Ann"

> <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > Today in the parking garage for my office, the daily quote posted

> at

> > the entry says: "Beware as long as you live of judging people by

> > appearances." -- Jean de la Fontaine

> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine

> >

> > But are you saying that Shiva made a mistake in choosing to

appear

> > that way?

> >

> >

> >

> > , "mahahradanatha"

> > <mahahradanatha> wrote:

> > > It is just a function of this devi. Often people mistake the

> cover

> > > for the content, there can be worthwhile content in a simple

> cover.

> > > The devi takes that which we throw away and puts it to an use.

> > > This is an internal function representing transformation of

that

> > > which is unhealthy to something which is useful and good.

> > >

> > > What you are talking about is self righteousness which is the

> > normal

> > > daily state of the average human mind, not a function of

> ucchista

> > > candali.

> > >

> > > The ugly appearance of the Gurus connected to the kaula

> sampradaya

> > is

> > > legendary.

> > > In fact also Shiva himself often appears in a very ugly outfit,

> so

> > > ugly that he is not invited to the legendary sacrifice of

daksha

> > > which caused problems that eventually led to the death of sati

> and

> > > the appeareance of the devis body parts in the holy places-like

> the

> > > tongue in jawalamukhi pith etc.

> > >

> > >

> > > , "Mary Ann"

> > > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > > Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There are a

lot

> of

> > > > people out there who think they know it all, and that when

> others

> > > don't

> > > > recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist, or

> > > > unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted energies

> away,

> > > the

> > > > great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always get

> what

> > > you

> > > > want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you get

what

> > you

> > > > need."

> > > >

> > > > , "NMadasamy"

> > <nmadasamy@s...>

> > > > wrote:

> > > > > Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted energies

and

> > > stupid

> > > > > people away from her devotees by creating the illusion that

> her

> > > > > devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is

only

> > > divine

> > > > > illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and

> purposely

> > > make

> > > > it

> > > > > look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate

> between

> > > the

> > > > > real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This you

cant

> > > learn

> > > > > from the book. It must come from first hand experience and

> from

> > > the

> > > > > master themselves.

[Guest guest]

Maybe what you are saying is that the ugliness is all in our

projections, but that is still not a reason for people or

Devis/devatas to behave in ugly ways. See my post just above this.

Are you saying that the Devis/devatas are just our own psychic

projections of God/dess, so that's why we revere them?

 

, Dev Maharaj <dev_maharaj>

wrote:

> Namaskaar Mary Ann

>

> I just wanted to point you a couple of things, when a person

perceives a Devi/devatas a lot of the "ugliness" that is seen is

actually emanating from the perceivers mind - due to samskaars

vasaanas and mental clutter. Some of the wrathful forms appear quite

> grotesque but that is as a result of the amount of power and energy

that they possess. This is how it appears to a developing mind that

is unaware of this.

>

> Also to judge people is to form an opinion by what they radiate to

others. Many times however people although well intentioned may not

know how to express themselves in a manner that is acceptable to all

and sundry and because they lack this they appear to be hostile, rude

(and a host of other adjectives) etc. Some of the most erudite

opinions that I have heard have not come from scholars but from very

simple people who really wanted to find out things. You see the

problem with teaching people who already KNOW is that they

already "know" !

>

> Devindra Maharaj

[Guest guest]

Hi Mary ann

> Hi Mahahradanatha - Yes, I love those Patti Smith lines

> (from "Gloria" on the Horses album for anyone out there who might

> want to give that a listen if unafamiliar). I think by Smith's

> statement, Jesus died, really, for his own sins, or choices.

 

And the other way around she wants to be a complete person

responsible for her own action and their results and not dump them on

somebody else.

>

> Re the notion that Shiva's bad behaviors "create possibilities for

> other beings

> > of achieving freedom from rebirth" - this leaves room for people

to

> allow their mental imbalances to go unchecked. I am speaking

> specifically of a man I know who identifies with Shiva and is

> purposefully "acting out" so he can help others transform.

Meanwhile,

> he gets kicked out of groups, alienates folks, etc. I consider him

to

> have a "Jesus complex" in that he is sacrificing himself for what

he

> thinks is our benefit (I'm in a group he's been part of).

 

I do not know of a single idea or thought or word that is not being

misused badly by some asshole.

>

> To take the idea to another extreme, you might say a woman could

> thank her rapist b/c she had to do so much healing work after the

> rape - and of course, this is truly a misapplication of spiritual

> principles. But I feel spiritual principles have been misapplied

this way for millenia.

Yes like the famous hellinger family theraphy this actually his idea

of respect and healing force.

 

 

And I get a hint of that in what you said about

> Shiva's behavior's effect on others. Whatever the behavior's effect

> on others, I think Shiva needs to just be responsible for his own

> choices, and same with the rest of us, Devis/devatas or humans.

>

This is exactly the difference the gods willfully enter into

existence and choose their roles out of "sveccha" free will knowing

and accepting the consequences. When they do this they create the

imbalance and balance the energy out again. This is called the

tandava dance of Shiva where every movement is balanced by another or

it is pictured also as lila a play of the Gods.

 

I dont think you will find a god on this planet that is poltical

correct all the time. Imagine that: "The Cult of the always political

correct" His holy book "No offence"

 

 

 

>

> , "mahahradanatha"

> <mahahradanatha> wrote:

> > Yes about that transformation of negative emotional "leftovers"

> >

> > Repression causes sicknesses

> > Dumping them on other means loosing important parts of your own

> > vitality and you will eventually get them thrown back at you.

> > another quote from the pop culture:) jesus died for somebodys

sins

> > but not mine, they belong to me. patti smith

> >

> > Shiva is an outlaw he takes drugs even murdered brahma the karma

> of

> > this killing caused him to appear in the guise of Bhairava to

roam

> > the earth with a skull stuck to his hand. He is adressed as the

> Lord

> > of thieves. But all these deeds create possibilities for other

> beings

> > of achieving freedom from rebirth. Time starts with an imbalance,

> if

> > the deities want to appear to us and other imbalanced beings they

> > must also create imabalances otherwise we would not see them,

but

> > these imbalanced forms of the gods are willful, playful

> > manifestations. They are happening out of their own will.

> > (sanskrit:sveccha) this own will is one of the primal shaktis,

> human

> > beings also have this (icchha)shakti but usually in avery limited

> > form.

> > She is one of the triad Icchha Jnana Kriya, Will Mind and Deed

> >

> >

> >

> > , "Mary Ann"

> > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > Today in the parking garage for my office, the daily quote

posted

> > at

> > > the entry says: "Beware as long as you live of judging people

by

> > > appearances." -- Jean de la Fontaine

> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine

> > >

> > > But are you saying that Shiva made a mistake in choosing to

> appear

> > > that way?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , "mahahradanatha"

> > > <mahahradanatha> wrote:

> > > > It is just a function of this devi. Often people mistake the

> > cover

> > > > for the content, there can be worthwhile content in a simple

> > cover.

> > > > The devi takes that which we throw away and puts it to an use.

> > > > This is an internal function representing transformation of

> that

> > > > which is unhealthy to something which is useful and good.

> > > >

> > > > What you are talking about is self righteousness which is the

> > > normal

> > > > daily state of the average human mind, not a function of

> > ucchista

> > > > candali.

> > > >

> > > > The ugly appearance of the Gurus connected to the kaula

> > sampradaya

> > > is

> > > > legendary.

> > > > In fact also Shiva himself often appears in a very ugly

outfit,

> > so

> > > > ugly that he is not invited to the legendary sacrifice of

> daksha

> > > > which caused problems that eventually led to the death of

sati

> > and

> > > > the appeareance of the devis body parts in the holy places-

like

> > the

> > > > tongue in jawalamukhi pith etc.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , "Mary Ann"

> > > > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > > > Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There are a

> lot

> > of

> > > > > people out there who think they know it all, and that when

> > others

> > > > don't

> > > > > recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist, or

> > > > > unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted energies

> > away,

> > > > the

> > > > > great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always get

> > what

> > > > you

> > > > > want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you get

> what

> > > you

> > > > > need."

> > > > >

> > > > > , "NMadasamy"

> > > <nmadasamy@s...>

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted energies

> and

> > > > stupid

> > > > > > people away from her devotees by creating the illusion

that

> > her

> > > > > > devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is

> only

> > > > divine

> > > > > > illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and

> > purposely

> > > > make

> > > > > it

> > > > > > look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate

> > between

> > > > the

> > > > > > real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This you

> cant

> > > > learn

> > > > > > from the book. It must come from first hand experience

and

> > from

> > > > the

> > > > > > master themselves.

[Guest guest]

Your comments are much appreciated, as usual. Re the below, it isn't

about "political correctness" but that those who are being tread on,

if that is the case, learn to support themselves in whatever way is

most appropriate in any given situation, that is, moving from the

highest internal principle(s) ("Be the change you want to see in the

world"), and in so doing, the external is also elevated.

 

 

 

, "mahahradanatha"

<mahahradanatha> wrote:

> I dont think you will find a god on this planet that is poltical

> correct all the time. Imagine that: "The Cult of the always

political

> correct" His holy book "No offence"

>

>

>

>

> >

> > , "mahahradanatha"

> > <mahahradanatha> wrote:

> > > Yes about that transformation of negative emotional "leftovers"

> > >

> > > Repression causes sicknesses

> > > Dumping them on other means loosing important parts of your own

> > > vitality and you will eventually get them thrown back at you.

> > > another quote from the pop culture:) jesus died for somebodys

> sins

> > > but not mine, they belong to me. patti smith

> > >

> > > Shiva is an outlaw he takes drugs even murdered brahma the

karma

> > of

> > > this killing caused him to appear in the guise of Bhairava to

> roam

> > > the earth with a skull stuck to his hand. He is adressed as the

> > Lord

> > > of thieves. But all these deeds create possibilities for other

> > beings

> > > of achieving freedom from rebirth. Time starts with an

imbalance,

> > if

> > > the deities want to appear to us and other imbalanced beings

they

> > > must also create imabalances otherwise we would not see them,

> but

> > > these imbalanced forms of the gods are willful, playful

> > > manifestations. They are happening out of their own will.

> > > (sanskrit:sveccha) this own will is one of the primal shaktis,

> > human

> > > beings also have this (icchha)shakti but usually in avery

limited

> > > form.

> > > She is one of the triad Icchha Jnana Kriya, Will Mind and Deed

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , "Mary Ann"

> > > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > > Today in the parking garage for my office, the daily quote

> posted

> > > at

> > > > the entry says: "Beware as long as you live of judging

people

> by

> > > > appearances." -- Jean de la Fontaine

> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine

> > > >

> > > > But are you saying that Shiva made a mistake in choosing to

> > appear

> > > > that way?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , "mahahradanatha"

> > > > <mahahradanatha> wrote:

> > > > > It is just a function of this devi. Often people mistake

the

> > > cover

> > > > > for the content, there can be worthwhile content in a

simple

> > > cover.

> > > > > The devi takes that which we throw away and puts it to an

use.

> > > > > This is an internal function representing transformation of

> > that

> > > > > which is unhealthy to something which is useful and good.

> > > > >

> > > > > What you are talking about is self righteousness which is

the

> > > > normal

> > > > > daily state of the average human mind, not a function of

> > > ucchista

> > > > > candali.

> > > > >

> > > > > The ugly appearance of the Gurus connected to the kaula

> > > sampradaya

> > > > is

> > > > > legendary.

> > > > > In fact also Shiva himself often appears in a very ugly

> outfit,

> > > so

> > > > > ugly that he is not invited to the legendary sacrifice of

> > daksha

> > > > > which caused problems that eventually led to the death of

> sati

> > > and

> > > > > the appeareance of the devis body parts in the holy places-

> like

> > > the

> > > > > tongue in jawalamukhi pith etc.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > , "Mary Ann"

> > > > > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > > > > Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There are

a

> > lot

> > > of

> > > > > > people out there who think they know it all, and that

when

> > > others

> > > > > don't

> > > > > > recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist, or

> > > > > > unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted

energies

> > > away,

> > > > > the

> > > > > > great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always

get

> > > what

> > > > > you

> > > > > > want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you get

> > what

> > > > you

> > > > > > need."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , "NMadasamy"

> > > > <nmadasamy@s...>

> > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted

energies

> > and

> > > > > stupid

> > > > > > > people away from her devotees by creating the illusion

> that

> > > her

> > > > > > > devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this is

> > only

> > > > > divine

> > > > > > > illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and

> > > purposely

> > > > > make

> > > > > > it

> > > > > > > look like a fake. Only those who knows to differentiate

> > > between

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This

you

> > cant

> > > > > learn

> > > > > > > from the book. It must come from first hand experience

> and

> > > from

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > master themselves.

[Guest guest]

IMHO

 

, "Mary Ann"

<buttercookie61> wrote:

> Your comments are much appreciated, as usual. Re the below, it

isn't

> about "political correctness" but that those who are being tread

on,

> if that is the case, learn to support themselves in whatever way is

> most appropriate in any given situation, that is, moving from the

> highest internal principle(s) ("Be the change you want to see in

the

> world"), and in so doing, the external is also elevated.

>

>

>

> , "mahahradanatha"

> <mahahradanatha> wrote:

> > I dont think you will find a god on this planet that is poltical

> > correct all the time. Imagine that: "The Cult of the always

> political

> > correct" His holy book "No offence"

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > > , "mahahradanatha"

> > > <mahahradanatha> wrote:

> > > > Yes about that transformation of negative

emotional "leftovers"

> > > >

> > > > Repression causes sicknesses

> > > > Dumping them on other means loosing important parts of your

own

> > > > vitality and you will eventually get them thrown back at

you.

> > > > another quote from the pop culture:) jesus died for somebodys

> > sins

> > > > but not mine, they belong to me. patti smith

> > > >

> > > > Shiva is an outlaw he takes drugs even murdered brahma the

> karma

> > > of

> > > > this killing caused him to appear in the guise of Bhairava to

> > roam

> > > > the earth with a skull stuck to his hand. He is adressed as

the

> > > Lord

> > > > of thieves. But all these deeds create possibilities for

other

> > > beings

> > > > of achieving freedom from rebirth. Time starts with an

> imbalance,

> > > if

> > > > the deities want to appear to us and other imbalanced beings

> they

> > > > must also create imabalances otherwise we would not see

them,

> > but

> > > > these imbalanced forms of the gods are willful, playful

> > > > manifestations. They are happening out of their own will.

> > > > (sanskrit:sveccha) this own will is one of the primal

shaktis,

> > > human

> > > > beings also have this (icchha)shakti but usually in avery

> limited

> > > > form.

> > > > She is one of the triad Icchha Jnana Kriya, Will Mind and Deed

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , "Mary Ann"

> > > > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > > > Today in the parking garage for my office, the daily quote

> > posted

> > > > at

> > > > > the entry says: "Beware as long as you live of judging

> people

> > by

> > > > > appearances." -- Jean de la Fontaine

> > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine

> > > > >

> > > > > But are you saying that Shiva made a mistake in choosing to

> > > appear

> > > > > that way?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > , "mahahradanatha"

> > > > > <mahahradanatha> wrote:

> > > > > > It is just a function of this devi. Often people mistake

> the

> > > > cover

> > > > > > for the content, there can be worthwhile content in a

> simple

> > > > cover.

> > > > > > The devi takes that which we throw away and puts it to an

> use.

> > > > > > This is an internal function representing transformation

of

> > > that

> > > > > > which is unhealthy to something which is useful and good.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What you are talking about is self righteousness which is

> the

> > > > > normal

> > > > > > daily state of the average human mind, not a function of

> > > > ucchista

> > > > > > candali.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The ugly appearance of the Gurus connected to the kaula

> > > > sampradaya

> > > > > is

> > > > > > legendary.

> > > > > > In fact also Shiva himself often appears in a very ugly

> > outfit,

> > > > so

> > > > > > ugly that he is not invited to the legendary sacrifice of

> > > daksha

> > > > > > which caused problems that eventually led to the death of

> > sati

> > > > and

> > > > > > the appeareance of the devis body parts in the holy

places-

> > like

> > > > the

> > > > > > tongue in jawalamukhi pith etc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , "Mary Ann"

> > > > > > <buttercookie61> wrote:

> > > > > > > Well, one needs to be careful about this, too. There

are

> a

> > > lot

> > > > of

> > > > > > > people out there who think they know it all, and that

> when

> > > > others

> > > > > > don't

> > > > > > > recognize it, it's because everyone else is a dualist,

or

> > > > > > > unenlightened, or whatever. About keeping unwanted

> energies

> > > > away,

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > great sage Mick Jagger said it best: "You can't always

> get

> > > > what

> > > > > > you

> > > > > > > want/but if you try sometimes/you just might find/you

get

> > > what

> > > > > you

> > > > > > > need."

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > , "NMadasamy"

> > > > > <nmadasamy@s...>

> > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > > Mahandranatha wrote : She helps to keep unwanted

> energies

> > > and

> > > > > > stupid

> > > > > > > > people away from her devotees by creating the

illusion

> > that

> > > > her

> > > > > > > > devotee is ucchista=unclean also, while in fact this

is

> > > only

> > > > > > divine

> > > > > > > > illusion to protect the knowledge from the dualists.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Yes agreed. Sometimes DEVI will throw in the GEM and

> > > > purposely

> > > > > > make

> > > > > > > it

> > > > > > > > look like a fake. Only those who knows to

differentiate

> > > > between

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > real and the fake will be able to recognise it. This

> you

> > > cant

> > > > > > learn

> > > > > > > > from the book. It must come from first hand

experience

> > and

> > > > from

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > master themselves.

[Guest guest]

Namaskaar

 

Mary Ann what a Devi or devata does I can only accept,

they are a higher being that has reasons for doing

things which I cannot necessarily appreciate, I trust

that whatever they do it is by the absolute will of

God . We must also be careful to understand that we

are

trying to judge or impose our value judgements

relative to our era of time . These are immortals that

have seen things we can only imagine at, to judge

their rationale for actions might not necessarily be

healthy as we are in a learning stage.

 

People will behave in ugly ways for a number of

reasons

1) Egoism

2) Selfishness

3) Cruelty

4) Genetic programming inherited from ancestors

5) Unclean energy - over development of tamas guna in

the energy fields, chakras etc.

 

These are the primary sources and there may be more.

 

No I am not saying that they are our psychic

projections at all, they are individual energies that

are part of the absolute reality, they have the

ability to descend to our level of consciousness,

communicate with us and then return from whence they

came ( at great sacrifice on their part I might add !

)

We revere them for a number of reasons

1) Because they are part of the source energy our

subconscious remembers this.

2) By continuous worship they become the object of

adoration, hence the more we perform devotion the

more we like them.

3) When one worships a Devi/Devata there is an

exchange

of energy, we become accustomed to their energy

over

time.

4) When we examine our ancestors who worshipped them

for thousands of years we are fond of their energy

as it is a part of us.

 

Dhanyavaad

Pandit Devindra Maharaj

[Guest guest]

Some more info about Naga worship Of Costal Karnataka,

 

http://www.udupipages.com/temple/naga.html

 

Regards,

Prasad

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your clarification.

 

, Dev Maharaj

<dev_maharaj> wrote:

> Namaskaar

>

> Mary Ann what a Devi or devata does I can only accept,

> they are a higher being that has reasons for doing

> things which I cannot necessarily appreciate, I trust

> that whatever they do it is by the absolute will of

> God . We must also be careful to understand that we

> are

> trying to judge or impose our value judgements

> relative to our era of time . These are immortals that

> have seen things we can only imagine at, to judge

> their rationale for actions might not necessarily be

> healthy as we are in a learning stage.

>

> People will behave in ugly ways for a number of

> reasons

> 1) Egoism

> 2) Selfishness

> 3) Cruelty

> 4) Genetic programming inherited from ancestors

> 5) Unclean energy - over development of tamas guna in

> the energy fields, chakras etc.

>

> These are the primary sources and there may be more.

>

> No I am not saying that they are our psychic

> projections at all, they are individual energies that

> are part of the absolute reality, they have the

> ability to descend to our level of consciousness,

> communicate with us and then return from whence they

> came ( at great sacrifice on their part I might add !

> )

> We revere them for a number of reasons

> 1) Because they are part of the source energy our

> subconscious remembers this.

> 2) By continuous worship they become the object of

> adoration, hence the more we perform devotion the

> more we like them.

> 3) When one worships a Devi/Devata there is an

> exchange

> of energy, we become accustomed to their energy

> over

> time.

> 4) When we examine our ancestors who worshipped them

> for thousands of years we are fond of their energy

> as it is a part of us.

>

> Dhanyavaad

> Pandit Devindra Maharaj

[Guest guest]

To me Shiva was always connected with the full cycle of life,

Brahma is only concerned with creation Vishnu with Preservation, to

preserve (he is the most politically correct deity of the two, being

concernend with the preservation of the world order) Shiva though

primarly associated with the dissolution is the only one of these

three who reaches down to the old the ugly and decaying because that

is part of the dissolution. He is the full cycle. He includes all.

We try to keep the ugly, the old, decript and the sick away from us.

We dont want to see or think of people dying sick poor or suffering.

The same we also do to our selwe repress our negative emotions and

other expressions instead of transforming them.

Shiva does expose himself also to the ugly realities of life he even

seeks company of the ghosts in the cremation grounds etc.

to me this is a symbol that there is no unclean or evil existing per

se, everything can be transformend, all the worlds from Brahma to the

ends of the underworld is his self. Also we should rejects nothing

because that would only reduce our power and knowledge and ability to

act. Because of his comprehensive nature shiva is more intimately

connected to final emancipation than any other deity who are only

expressing and managing parts of the whole, and do open the gate to

emancipation to the few that respond to their wavelength so to say,

and of course the non dual realisation is harder to reach when you

are devoted to a deity who expresses a "narrow bandwidth" No offence

meant

 

 

, "Mary Ann"

<buttercookie61> wrote:

> Your comments are much appreciated, as usual. Re the below, it

isn't

> about "political correctness" but that those who are being tread

on,

> if that is the case, learn to support themselves in whatever way is

> most appropriate in any given situation, that is, moving from the

> highest internal principle(s) ("Be the change you want to see in

the

> world"), and in so doing, the external is also elevated.

>

>