Kural..

[Guest guest]

Pranam. A kural for you....

 

Morality is the birthright of high families,

While immoral conduct's legacy is lowly birth.

 

 

 

-Tirukkural 14:133

 

With Love

 

Shankaree

 

 

Let my every word be a prayer to Thee,

Every movement of my hands a ritual gesture to Thee,

Every step I take a circumambulation of Thy image,

Every morsel I eat a rite of sacrifice to Thee,

Every time I lay down a prostration at Thy feet;

Every act of personal pleasure and all else that I do,

Let it all be a form of worshiping Thee."

>From Verse 27 of Shri Aadi Shankara's Saundaryalahari

 

 

 

 

Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Mail to

make your dream a reality.

 

 

[Guest guest]

REALLY ???!!!!!

 

, shankaree ramatas <shankaree@y.

...> wrote:

> Pranam. A kural for you....

>

> Morality is the birthright of high families,

> While immoral conduct's legacy is lowly birth.

>

>

>

> -Tirukkural 14:133

>

> With Love

>

> Shankaree

>

>

> Let my every word be a prayer to Thee,

> Every movement of my hands a ritual gesture to Thee,

> Every step I take a circumambulation of Thy image,

> Every morsel I eat a rite of sacrifice to Thee,

> Every time I lay down a prostration at Thy feet;

> Every act of personal pleasure and all else that I do,

> Let it all be a form of worshiping Thee."

>

> From Verse 27 of Shri Aadi Shankara's Saundaryalahari

>

>

>

>

> Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with

Mail to make your dream a reality.

>

>

[Guest guest]

kicked me off a second time. Hope this goes through finally:

 

I don't understand how this kind of thinking can be thought to be

spiritual. Plenty of high-born people are selfish and commit terrible

wrongs, often ones characterized by the belief that they are better

than others. Which is delusional...

> Morality is the birthright of high families,

> While immoral conduct's legacy is lowly birth.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Max,

 

Morality is the birthright of the Aryan ~ i.e. the noble Aryan is

born into a family that is (by definition) high-born, noble, and an

exemplar of morality.

 

The legacy of immoral conduct by ANYONE (including the born Aryan who

falls to ignoble and immoral conduct) is a lowly rebirth as a Pashu.

 

The low-born "beast" may (with effort) rise from ignoble environs.

The high-born Aryan Brahmana may (without effort) fall from his/her

inherited right to that status.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/12/2004 8:27:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,

maxdashu writes:

I'm surprised that you use the term Aryan, with all its Nazi baggage,

instead of the Indian word Arya. The Nazis certainly believed in merit

determined by blood alone. After the rivers of blood and tears that

they caused to flow, please reconsider.

 

 

I disagree with avoidance of the term "aryan" because I have heard many

Indian people use it themselves, both North and South Indians. Is it a Sanskrit

word??? I've heard it even to the point of some cheesy Hindi Pop band from

Bombay

calling themselves The Aryans!

 

So, I always assumed that it was a proper term. The Indo- European branch of

languages used to be called Indo- Aryan. I have seen many books even in the

90's using the terms Aryan, or referring to Aryan people.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Sarabhanga,

 

Morality is everyone's birthright and true essence. No family, class,

or race has any monopoly on it, whatever they may claim. That is simply

egotism and a crass form of attachment.

 

Those who have claimed superiority based on social status, such as the

author of Manusmrti, show their true colors in unjust laws that decree

vastly different penalties depending on social caste, and gender. So

that a brahmana who murders a sudra need only be fined a leathern bag.

There is no karuna here; this is the very definition of moral

bankruptcy.

 

I'm surprised that you use the term Aryan, with all its Nazi baggage,

instead of the Indian word Arya. The Nazis certainly believed in merit

determined by blood alone. After the rivers of blood and tears that

they caused to flow, please reconsider.

 

Humans who are born in humble circumstances are not "beasts." They are

sparks of the divine, never to be despised. And what of the great

saints who were born in poor and despised circumstances. They did not

need to wait for rebirth to attain.

 

There is a teaching of the Jews, which the Sufis also have, that there

are 36 Righteous Souls who travel through life unrecognized by the

world. They are blessed jnanis who witness and shine light and heal and

teach wherever they go. They may be muleteers or housemaids or

trash-haulers, so be on the lookout.

 

peace,

Max

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Max:

 

Thank you for this. Made my day. ;-)

 

DB

 

, Max Dashu <maxdashu@l...>

wrote:

> Dear Sarabhanga,

>

> Morality is everyone's birthright and true essence. No family,

class,

> or race has any monopoly on it, whatever they may claim. That is

simply

> egotism and a crass form of attachment.

>

> Those who have claimed superiority based on social status, such as

the

> author of Manusmrti, show their true colors in unjust laws that

decree

> vastly different penalties depending on social caste, and gender.

So

> that a brahmana who murders a sudra need only be fined a leathern

bag.

> There is no karuna here; this is the very definition of moral

> bankruptcy.

>

> I'm surprised that you use the term Aryan, with all its Nazi

baggage,

> instead of the Indian word Arya. The Nazis certainly believed in

merit

> determined by blood alone. After the rivers of blood and tears that

> they caused to flow, please reconsider.

>

> Humans who are born in humble circumstances are not "beasts." They

are

> sparks of the divine, never to be despised. And what of the great

> saints who were born in poor and despised circumstances. They did

not

> need to wait for rebirth to attain.

>

> There is a teaching of the Jews, which the Sufis also have, that

there

> are 36 Righteous Souls who travel through life unrecognized by the

> world. They are blessed jnanis who witness and shine light and heal

and

> teach wherever they go. They may be muleteers or housemaids or

> trash-haulers, so be on the lookout.

>

> peace,

> Max

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I disagree with avoidance of the term "aryan" because I have heard many

> Indian people use it themselves, both North and South Indians. Is it a

> Sanskrit

> word???

 

Arya is, but I don't think Aryan is.

> I've heard it even to the point of some cheesy Hindi Pop band from

> Bombay

> calling themselves The Aryans!

 

So much for taste!

> So, I always assumed that it was a proper term. The Indo- European

> branch of

> languages used to be called Indo- Aryan.

 

But this went with a lot of racist scholarship, which is what led the

Nazis to adopt the term in the first place.

 

peace,

Max

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Max:

 

Do not take the Kural on its face value. Delev deep and you will get the

meaning.

 

Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote:

kicked me off a second time. Hope this goes through finally:

 

I don't understand how this kind of thinking can be thought to be spiritual.

Plenty of high-born people are selfish and commit terrible wrongs, often ones

characterized by the belief that they are better than others. Which is

delusional...

> Morality is the birthright of high families,

> While immoral conduct's legacy is lowly birth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The all-new My – What will yours do?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Max,

 

The Sanskrit word "arya" means: kind, favourable, true, devoted, or

excellent.

And an "arya" is a master or a lord.

 

An "Arya" is a respectable or honourable man ~ one who is faithful to

the religion of his country.

 

The Sanskrit word "AryA" means: worthy of or behaving as an Arya.

 

The Sanskrit noun "Arya" is taken directly as the English noun "Arya".

The Sanskrit adjective "AryA" becomes the English adjective "Aryan".

 

Dharma (Morality) is the inheritance of the Aryaputra (son of an

honourable man).

And the legacy of Adharma is lowly rebirth.

 

A child is born without Dharma, and its code of morality is first

established by the behaviour of and instruction from close family

members.

The pure and innocent child is yet without Dharma, but this perfect

purity is beyond any notion of Dharma and Adharma, Morality and

Immorality, or Right and Wrong.

And this child-like perfection is (in an adult) the true condition of

a Saint.

 

The innocent child born into an Aryan (excellent, noble, wise, moral)

family is born into Dharma or Morality; but Aryan status is only held

by continued noble effort.

The innocent child born into an immoral family certainly has an equal

right to Dharma, although circumstances may dictate that its

acquisition is more difficult.

 

Hinduism has traditionally posited re-birth into a "lower" family, or

even as a "lower" life-form, as the certain result of immoral conduct

or Adharma.

 

"AryA" is a broad term that has no necessary connexion with "caste".

Any one, of any caste or social position, who follows the AryamArga

(the way of the excellent ones) is an AryA or Aryan.

 

Nazism is quite peripheral to my own world view, but I wonder how you

manage to avoid any evocation of Hitler when you are confronted by

the sacred vortex of the ancient svastika?

 

Now, where was that baggage lurking?

[Guest guest]

**I don't understand how this kind of thinking can be thought to be spiritual.

Plenty of high-born people are selfish and commit terrible wrongs, often ones

characterized by the belief that they are better than others. Which is

delusional...**

 

I am not familiar with the Kural, but I thought that I would make some comments

about some 'general themes', for lack of better words.

 

"High-born" can mean many things - in the rules of Critical Thinking, at least

the method taught in the United States, it would be considered an ambiguous

term, since it can be looked at in more than two different ways. It can mean

wealthy family (which I am guessing you are referring to), a level of spiritual

attainment, a person who lives ten kilometers above ground *lol*, etc. Correct

me if I am wrong, I may have missed on some of the conversation and again, this

is not my field of expertise, I just thought I would point what "high-born"

could also mean.

 

All things in consideration, there are those who do have the theory that people

with riches had "good karma" and those who live poorly "did not." I personally

disagree only because I have no right to judge, whether the person is rich or

poor. Generalizations can only go so far. I would know, I used to have a

horrible habit of doing it all the time, LOL.

 

Blessings,

 

 

 

 

Meet the all-new My – Try it today!

 

 

[Guest guest]

" kicked me off a second time. Hope this goes through

finally:"

 

 

When the universe arranges itself to get your atttention, you

should pay attention. The universe was trying to get you to

reexamine your notions but you choose Instead to ignore those

two opportunities and to persevere with your flawed notions.

 

It is difficult to conquer the ego. No wonder it takes so many

lifetimes for us to become spiritually liberated.

 

Omprem

 

 

 

 

, Max Dashu

<maxdashu@l...> wrote:

> kicked me off a second time. Hope this goes through

finally:

>

> I don't understand how this kind of thinking can be thought to

be

> spiritual. Plenty of high-born people are selfish and commit

terrible

> wrongs, often ones characterized by the belief that they are

better

> than others. Which is delusional...

>

> > Morality is the birthright of high families,

> > While immoral conduct's legacy is lowly birth.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/13/2004 5:06:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,

maxdashu writes:

Since I live in the West, I make a point of not avoiding mention of

Hitler's appropriation and desecration of that sacred symbol. It is a

holy symbol, for people all over the world, yet compassion prompts

acknowledgement that its mere sight causes pain to Jewish people and

others who suffered under the Nazis. I know people who are children of

Holocaust survivors, or other relatives.

 

 

Agreed, but it's validity as a Holy Symbol used for thousands of years far

outweighs it's bastardized political use for less then 10 years. The crazy thing

is people have died under the banners of Islam, the cross, for the hammer &

sickle etc. and yet these symbols are perfectly fine to use in any way by most

people.

 

My belief is that the Nazis misused the symbol and avoiding it is not healing

anyone. Instead I would rather use the symbol in it's intended fashion,

educate people on it's histiry and view the Nazis as the misguided fools they

were.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Pranam. Wow. I did think that there might some reaction to this particular kural

but I did not realise that it will be like this. Maxji and everyone else, my

answer would be please read the Thirukural in its entirety. With Kurals, one

could and should search deep within to get the true meanings.

 

With Love

 

Shankaree

 

 

 

 

Let my every word be a prayer to Thee,

Every movement of my hands a ritual gesture to Thee,

Every step I take a circumambulation of Thy image,

Every morsel I eat a rite of sacrifice to Thee,

Every time I lay down a prostration at Thy feet;

Every act of personal pleasure and all else that I do,

Let it all be a form of worshiping Thee."

>From Verse 27 of Shri Aadi Shankara's Saundaryalahari

 

 

 

 

Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Messenger

 

 

[Guest guest]

> It is difficult to conquer the ego. No wonder it takes so many

> lifetimes for us to become spiritually liberated.

 

It is difficult, indeed. Which was my point: self-interest creeps into

even "spiritual" teachings.

 

Max

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

- omprem <omprem wrote:

> When the universe arranges itself to get your

> atttention, you

> should pay attention. The universe was trying to get

> you to

> reexamine your notions but you choose Instead to

> ignore those

> two opportunities and to persevere with your flawed

> notions.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$4

You mean just like you do ALL the time?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

>

> It is difficult to conquer the ego. No wonder it

> takes so many

> lifetimes for us to become spiritually liberated.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yes, I'd say you got a few more of those coming.

I'd say you got some nerve calling others on their

"flawed notions"

Lilith M.

################################################

>

> Omprem

>

>

>

>

> , Max Dashu

> <maxdashu@l...> wrote:

> > kicked me off a second time. Hope this goes

> through

> finally:

> >

> > I don't understand how this kind of thinking can

> be thought to

> be

> > spiritual. Plenty of high-born people are selfish

> and commit

> terrible

> > wrongs, often ones characterized by the belief

> that they are

> better

> > than others. Which is delusional...

> >

> > > Morality is the birthright of high families,

> > > While immoral conduct's legacy is lowly birth.

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good.

http://celebrity.mail.

[Guest guest]

> The Sanskrit word "arya" means:  kind, favourable, true, devoted, or

> excellent.[etc.]

 

Yes, yes, I know all that. But there is no need to talk of nobly-born

and low-born if what you really mean is to designate a person as

possessing the divine virtues. It has nothing to do with social class,

and linking them has led to all kinds of social evils, like tindal and

todal. What goodness really comes down to is the heart.

> Nazism is quite peripheral to my own world view, but I wonder how you

> manage to avoid any evocation of Hitler when you are confronted by

> the sacred vortex of the ancient svastika?

 

Since I live in the West, I make a point of not avoiding mention of

Hitler's appropriation and desecration of that sacred symbol. It is a

holy symbol, for people all over the world, yet compassion prompts

acknowledgement that its mere sight causes pain to Jewish people and

others who suffered under the Nazis. I know people who are children of

Holocaust survivors, or other relatives.

 

Max

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Max,

 

If you did indeed "know all that", then I cannot understand why you

would object to my use of the word Aryan.

I suggest that quibbling over the use of "-an" to indicate the

long "A" that terminates the word "AryA", in this forum (which is

intended for those practising or sympathetic to Shaktism), is quite

unnecessary.

I have explained what was intended by "high families" and "lowly

birth" in the proverb presented by Shankaree; and yet you continue to

object to this (to the Hindu mind, quite reasonable) traditional

statement.

As I have tried to explain, this Kural does NOT necessarily link

actual or potential virtue with social status.

[Guest guest]

> Agreed, but it's validity as a Holy Symbol used for thousands of years

> far

> outweighs it's bastardized political use for less then 10 years.

 

Yes. It does, but in the spirit of ahimsa, when I show the svastika _as

a sacred sign_ in my slideshows, I like to address the issue as a way

of clearing the blasphemy away, acknowledging the pain and setting

people's minds at rest.

> The crazy thing

> is people have died under the banners of Islam, the cross, for the

> hammer &

> sickle etc. and yet these symbols are perfectly fine to use in any way

> by most

> people.

 

As far as I am concerned they are also problematic. There is a great

book called Constantine's Sword that talks about how the cross (crux,

from cruciare, to torture, and hence crucifixion as used by the Roman

empire against colonized and enslaved people) was adopted as the symbol

of Christianity only after centuries, under the auspices of the first

Christian Roman emperor. The author distinguishes between original

Christian belief and the repressive model that was decreed the state

religion in the mid-300s.

> My belief is that the Nazis misused the symbol and avoiding it is not

> healing

> anyone. Instead I would rather use the symbol in it's intended fashion,

> educate people on it's histiry and view the Nazis as the misguided

> fools they were.

 

This is my approach too. I don't advocate not revering it, only

educating people about it, and being aware.

 

Max

 

 

[Guest guest]

> If you did indeed "know all that", then I cannot understand why you

> would object to my use of the word Aryan.

 

Because what I said is not about "quibbling" but about not causing pain

or misunderstanding. If you want to leave a bad taste, that is your

choice, but the reason I brought up Arya was to recognize that the

original term has its own meaning, which you have just taken the

trouble to define.

 

The meaning you put forward does not jibe with talk about

 

"The low-born "beast"

 

or "inherited right to that status".

 

I don't find your explanation convincing.We aren't going to agree. I

don't believe in inherited right to any status, and there are plenty of

traditional Hindu statements that I would disagree with. Let's not even

go there.

 

peace,

Max

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Please note that, since my own Lord is Pashupati, I do understand the

implications of the term "Pashu".

Sarabhanga is a Bikshu.

Sarabhanga is a Dasa of the Panca.

Sarabhanga is an Avadhuta.

Sarabhanga is a Pashu.

 

And remember that the blessed Jnanis, who witness and shine light and

heal and teach wherever they go, may appear in any guise.

[Guest guest]

" I don't believe in inherited right to any status, and there are

plenty of traditional Hindu statements that I would disagree with.

Let's not even go there."

 

What are you doing here in a board devoted to Hinduism?

 

You cannot cherry pick the Hindu philosophy, taking the ideas

that you like and rejecting the ones you don't like.To do that is to

fail to understand Hinduism.

 

And please don't try to inject any of your victim philosophy into

Hinduism. It's a package deal so take it or leave it and don't try to

dumb it down.

 

Omprem

 

 

, Max Dashu

<maxdashu@l...> wrote:

> > If you did indeed "know all that", then I cannot understand

why you

> > would object to my use of the word Aryan.

>

> Because what I said is not about "quibbling" but about not

causing pain

> or misunderstanding. If you want to leave a bad taste, that is

your

> choice, but the reason I brought up Arya was to recognize that

the

> original term has its own meaning, which you have just taken

the

> trouble to define.

>

> The meaning you put forward does not jibe with talk about

>

> "The low-born "beast"

>

> or "inherited right to that status".

>

> I don't find your explanation convincing.We aren't going to

agree. I

> don't believe in inherited right to any status, and there are

plenty of

> traditional Hindu statements that I would disagree with. Let's

not even

> go there.

>

> peace,

> Max

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Since this forum concerns Shakti Sadhana as a Hindu spiritual

tradition, the traditional signs, symbols, terminology, mythology,

scriptures, and custom, of both Hinduism and Shaktism should be

assumed as understood, or at least not rejected without proper

consideration.

 

Anyone who cannot stomach the taste of Shaktism, and traditional

Hinduism generally, is perhaps not yet ready for Shakti Sadhana.

I would again submit that IN THIS FORUM, such comments are a

distraction.

 

And again, I have tried to explain the RELATIVE OPPORTUNITY for

attainment of Dharma that is quite logically presented in this

(remarkably problematic!) Kural.

 

If parents possess a treasure, then their offspring have all the

opportunities open to one in possession of such riches.

It may be said that this treasure is their "birth-right", since they

will later inherit full control and ownership of that treasure.

Although, that child may (through whatever ommission or vice) prove

to be an unworthy inheritor, and be caste out from the family or cut

off from any potential inheritance.

 

The child of immoral, ignorant parents has an equal right to Dharma

and consequent recognition as AryA; but that child certainly does

have less opportunity for advancement and more obstacles that would

retard his/her establishment in Dharma.

Although, that child may indeed (through good fortune and appropriate

effort) prove to be well worthy of the title AryA.

[Guest guest]

No, sorry, you can't close the door in my face quite so easily.

 

The Shakta path does not require agreement with every Hindu text ever

written. Especially not those which use language indistinguishable from

that used to oppress for millennia. (Aside to Om Prem, speaking up for

the victimized is not the same as being a victim.) My final comment on

this.

 

Max

> Since this forum concerns Shakti Sadhana as a Hindu spiritual

> tradition, the traditional signs, symbols, terminology, mythology,

> scriptures, and custom, of both Hinduism and Shaktism should be

> assumed as understood, or at least not rejected without proper

> consideration.

>

> Anyone who cannot stomach the taste of Shaktism, and traditional

> Hinduism generally, is perhaps not yet ready for Shakti Sadhana.

> I would again submit that IN THIS FORUM, such comments are a

> distraction.

>

> And again, I have tried to explain the RELATIVE OPPORTUNITY for

> attainment of Dharma that is quite logically presented in this

> (remarkably problematic!) Kural.

>

> If parents possess a treasure, then their offspring have all the

> opportunities open to one in possession of such riches.

> It may be said that this treasure is their "birth-right", since they

> will later inherit full control and ownership of that treasure.

> Although, that child may (through whatever ommission or vice) prove

> to be an unworthy inheritor, and be caste out from the family or cut

> off from any potential inheritance.

>

> The child of immoral, ignorant parents has an equal right to Dharma

> and consequent recognition as AryA; but that child certainly does

> have less opportunity for advancement and more obstacles that would

> retard his/her establishment in Dharma.

> Although, that child may indeed (through good fortune and appropriate

> effort) prove to be well worthy of the title AryA.

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Perhaps a less controversial translation of this Kural might be:

 

Decorum brings true nobility on earth;

Indecorum's issue is ignoble birth.