Guest guest Report post Posted October 13, 2004 93 If fact i have no desire to discuss here the matters of science in general. I`ve expressed my views and that it enough for those who listen. The point is clear - what science has is scientific method. Scientist do not know many things and do mistakes - this is obvious. But the approach of science is true. However the case of traditional "sciences" is different - they are based on scriptures and orally transmitted teachings. For this reason for instanse Svami Prabhupada said that american astronauts had never been to Moon, coz Vedas say it is too far, and other nonsense. To go further, come on try to USE ur "so advanced" scriptural knowledge! Read Shiva-svarodaya and apply it`s prescriptions . Take on ridiculous life style of Manu-smriti. Stop using modern medicines (if a westerner gets some infection in India this will perhaps make him to leave this world LOL). If someone makes this experiment, i`m interested to hear about results. True faith in God is not based on mythology and supersticions. Only this true faith is essential. It is a mistake to mix spirituality with science. At least till we become sarvajnas LOL. OK, this scientific stuff isn`t of critical importance for the point of view of Kaula-tantrism . Let is be. If U prefer old sciences to modern, no problem. Just i don`t understand why u still use computer then... Useless crap, isn`t it? ) Best wishes, A. , "omprem" <omprem> wrote: > > " Nobody says medical science is perfect. But it is far more > advanced than so called "yoga" and "oriental medicine" in > general. I don`t reject that positive element which is present in > "yogic" and ayurvedic teachings. But we are not leaving in 12 > century LOL. What we read in ayurvedic samhitas is science (!) > of that age. But time passed" > > > Yes, time has passed. But the so-called 'discoveries' of modern > science have only substantiated the claims of yoga and vedanta. > Science used an outward looking method to discover what was > known long ago by those using inward looking methods. > > Physics, the science accorded the most god-like stature, has, in > all of its discoveries, only validated the messages of the ancient > seers. Nothing physics has discovered has invalidated anything > said by those ancient and modern seers. Everything physics has > discovered has been in accord with ancient wisdom. Quite a > feat for old, hopelessly out-dated people without material > means, wouldn't you say, to know more than modern physics > researchers with their billions of dollars of equipment? > > "Lastly, objective science is same everywhere - it is based of > exploring the world" > > But what constitutes the world? And what constitutes the human > body? Your beloved 'scientists' are only investigating what their > senses and instruments bring to their attention. Senses are > flawed - degrees of blindness, degrees of hearing loss, etc. In > addition, they have limited range. They can only be aware of > certain phenomena. Plus, the senses are selective and > influenced by the psychology of the perceiver. To know more, > they must design instruments to make them aware of what they > cannot know directly. So already there are several filters > screening your beloved from the knowledge they seek. > > Medical scientist look only at they know as the physcial body. But > we know that there is no such thing as a physical body in the > material sense. There are no solid objects. Everything is energy > and is in constant flux. So, too, the body. If you now want to > consider the body as an energy system, then you are extending > the limits of the body beyond that normally seen by the > undeveloped senses of the medical scientist. You are now > including the pranamaya kosha in the definition of body. And now > you are closer to understanding how the body functions and > misfunctions. > > For example, there is a rhythm of the breath that your medical > scientists cannot explain. At a given time, one of your nostrils will > be dominant. That is, it is easier to breath through one nostril > than the other. That situation changes every hour and 50 > minutes, so that the other nostril becomes the dominant nostril. > This cycle continues day after day, year after year, with an > important exception that I will look at in a minute. Your medical > scientists cannot explain that cycle or its purpose. > > Yogis and Ayurvedic physcians know that cycle to be associated > with the ida and pingala nadis. When the right nostril is > dominant, the energy in the pingala nadi is dominant and is > speeding up the physical and mental processes of the body. > When the left nostril is dominant, the prana in the ida nadi is > dominant and is slowing down the physical and mental > processes. Every two hours, your systems are being speeded > up, after which comes a two-hour period of your systems being > slowed. > > Now, we come to the exceptions. > > If the prana in the pingala nadi stays dominant for a much longer > period than its normal two hour cycle, you will be come ill with > problems related to systems speeding up. The most obvious > examples are fevers and cancer. Similarly, with the ida nadi's > prana being dominant, systems are destabilized into illness > such as poor circulation and coma at the graphic level. > > Such prana imbalances will cause changes in the biochemical > makeup of the body. > > The effects of such imbalance are well known in those circle that > you demean. It is the basis of such treatments as acupuncture, > which by the way, is a discipline that your beloved western > medical scientists are adopting. They may not understand, but > they know it works. Even these unsubtle clods cannot ignore the > obvious. Can you? > > In addition, pranayama such as anuloma viloma will cause the > normal cycle of nostril dominance to change so that the air is > equal in each nostril, thus bringing the person into physcial and > mental balance. > > In other words, the speeding up function is rajasic, the slowing > down function is tamasic and the balancing function is sattvic. > > If more of your medical scientists had the subtlety of vision as > the acupuncturists, the ayurvedic physcians, the yogis, and other > such 'alternative' health practitioners, the world would have less > suffering in it. > > Omprem > > , "Arjuna Taradasa" > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > > > 93 > > > > , "omprem" > <omprem> wrote: > > > > > > "I really wonder what is mystic in keeping diet LOL... Diet is a > > > matter of medical science, not spiritual path." > > > > > > Your beloved medical science is actually quite ignorant on > how > > > the human body works, and on its interdependent > relationship > > > with the other koshas that comprise a person. > > > > > > Medical science is so backward still, it does not deserve its > > > recent elevation to godlike status. > > > > Nobody says medical science is perfect. But it is far more > advanced > > than so called "yoga" and "oriental medicine" in general. > > I don`t reject that positive element which is present in "yogic" > and > > ayurvedic teachings. But we are not leaving in 12 century LOL. > What we > > read in ayurvedic samhitas is science (!) of that age. But time > passed > > . > > In fact it is ayurveda that is ignorant. What classic text explain > > functioning at least of physical body correctly? Only sankhya > type > > speculations we can find. But enumering pranas explains > nothing. > > Lastly, objective science is same everywhere - it is based of > > exploring the world and not on the doubtful authority of > medieval > > scriptures. Lastly, objective science is same everywhere - it is > based of > > exploring the world > > > > > " If u know, scriptures of hinduism do not prohibit meat. In > fact > > > both Vedas and Tantras prescribe it in ritual context." > > > > > > Is that along same ritual line as playing with shit? > > > > Not at all. By "playing with shit" U may mean tibetan or some > extreme > > tantric practices - but they are NOT from scriptures. > > Vedas PRESCRIBE animal sacrifices. Vedic Rishis ate meat - > read! > > Manava-dharmashastra says that "there is no sin in eating > meat" (na > > mAMsabhakShaNe doShaH). > > Tantra uses meat in it`s most sacred ritual - eucharist of Kula, > kula- > > yaga. > > Kauljnana-nirnaya (10 century kaula text) prohibits > vegetarianism . > > > > It is a different question whether to eat meat in general. For > body it > > may be good to stay away from red meats. What i say is > connected with > > ritual use only. > > > > > "Thus, we have to tell people that "Only Love saves". If u are > in > > > Love, nothing is needed more. No effort brings us to God. > Only > > > His mercy lifts us up" > > > > > > It is one thing tell people that they need to be 'in Love'; it is > > quite > > > another thing to suggest how they might arrive at that state. > > > Effort makes us capable of being in God's presences. Effort > > > enables us to leave behind dense vibrations and exist as > > > increasingly higher vibrations. Effort takes us to the > threshhold of > > > God. But it is our complete surrender and the Grace of God > and > > > Guru that enables us to cross that threshhold into God's > > > presence. > > > > This is ok. No problem in telling correct methods which may > help in > > fact if followed with proper motivation. > > But what U listed is something different. That is why i argued. If > U > > said that were advices for long-living, case would be different. > > > > Love is the law, love under will. > > A. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 13, 2004 In a message dated 10/13/2004 9:24:53 AM Mountain Daylight Time, omprem writes: > But how effective is the scientific method? It uses flawed and > inadequate senses and an outward orientation, both of which > contain the seeds of the limitations of the scientific method. > There is nothing scientific about much of the 'science' being > conducted to day with our tax dollars. Most of it is a job-creation > scam. > Also, now they are saying, according to quantum physics and the idea of INTENT, that scientists get the results they are looking for when doing experiments. This could account for the varied test results. Rather than try to explain this myself, I"ll quote this excerpt from the writings of a Theoretical Quantum Physicist, Fred Alan Wolf, in "The Spiritual Universe: one physicist's vision of spirit, soul, matter, and self: "Desire, through our powers of observation, actually modifies and alters the course of the physical world, causing things to occur that would not normally occur if they were not desired." The Quantum Watched Pot "How does desire affect the physical world? Intent operates in the physical world by altering the observed state of the world. The fact that intent affects the physical world refelcts a recent discovery by quantum physicists Yakir Aharonov and M. Vardi that has received experimental verification by Wayne Itano and his colleagues. Aharonov and Vardi have shown that the old proverb 'a watched pot never boils' may have a range of validity previously unsuspected. They hae discovered a paradoxical situation that arises when a quantum system is watched carefully. As they put it: If one checks by continuous observations, if a given quantum system evolves from some initial state to some other final state along a specific trajectory... the result is always positive, whether or not the system would have done so on its own accord. "If a quantum system is monitored continuously, we couls say vigilantly, it will do practically anything. For example ... " ... the decay of an unstable system. On its own the system would decay in a few microseconds. But if it is watched continuosly, it will never decay. All vigilantly watched "quantum pots" never boil, even they they are heated forever. ... ... .... "This implies there is a deep connection between the observer and the observed. So deep, in fact, that we really cannot separate them. All we can do is alter the way we experience reality. This is where intent comes in" (pp. 217-218) --- So, there you have it: scientific objectivity has a BIG hole in it, otherwise called, the intent of the observer ( the scientist ) to get the results he/she is predisposed to watch for. Peace, Cathie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 13, 2004 "The point is clear - what science has is scientific method. " But how effective is the scientific method? It uses flawed and inadequate senses and an outward orientation, both of which contain the seeds of the limitations of the scientific method. There is nothing scientific about much of the 'science' being conducted to day with our tax dollars. Most of it is a job-creation scam. "To go further, come on try to USE ur "so advanced" scriptural knowledge! Read Shiva-svarodaya and apply it`s prescriptions. Take on ridiculous life style of Manu-smriti. Stop using modern medicines (if a westerner gets some infection in India this will perhaps make him to leave this world LOL). If someone makes this experiment, i`m interested to hear about results." There are already are hundreds of thousands of people in the world today who do not depend on your beloved medical science, including the entire British royal family. Many people only see homeopaths or naturopaths. Others see only Ayurvedic physicians. Others rely on hatha yoga and diet. Others rely on accupuncture. You mentioned a westerner getting an infection in India and dying without modern medicine. It makes no difference whether the person is western or not. The difference lies in experience. Just as it takes years of practising the piano before one is ready for a career as a concert pianist, so too does it take years of study of the esoteric health methods and years of sadhana to concentrate the mind and purify the koshas before one is able to cure themselves of maladies without western medicines. I know many people who have rejected western medical treatments as inadequate and treated themselves prannically with excellent results. The most dramatic examples are people who have cured themselves of cancer that was considered terminal by your beloved western medios. Western science has its uses. It is excellent for traumatic injury for example. But it is not a panacea and never will be partly because of its limits described above and partly because it mostly treats symptoms and not causes. Alternative medical practises treat the cause. The other reason why western medicine is suspect is because it is guarded as a commercial monopoly. It is a closed, self-protective shop and the modern equivalent of the medieval guild system. Part of this monopoly's tactics are to persuade people like you that it is the only answer. Western science has fallen victim to the notion of the supremacy of empiricism and reason. It has stopped being science because it has stopped inquiring into its own suppositions. Omprem , "Arjuna Taradasa" <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > 93 > > If fact i have no desire to discuss here the matters of science in > general. I`ve expressed my views and that it enough for those who > listen. > > The point is clear - what science has is scientific method. Scientist > do not know many things and do mistakes - this is obvious. But the > approach of science is true. However the case of traditional > "sciences" is different - they are based on scriptures and orally > transmitted teachings. For this reason for instanse Svami Prabhupada > said that american astronauts had never been to Moon, coz Vedas say it > is too far, and other nonsense. > To go further, come on try to USE ur "so advanced" scriptural > knowledge! Read Shiva-svarodaya and apply it`s prescriptions . Take > on ridiculous life style of Manu-smriti. Stop using modern medicines > (if a westerner gets some infection in India this will perhaps make > him to leave this world LOL). If someone makes this experiment, i`m > interested to hear about results. > > True faith in God is not based on mythology and supersticions. Only > this true faith is essential. It is a mistake to mix spirituality with > science. At least till we become sarvajnas LOL. > > OK, this scientific stuff isn`t of critical importance for the point > of view of Kaula-tantrism . Let is be. If U prefer old sciences to > modern, no problem. Just i don`t understand why u still use computer > then... Useless crap, isn`t it? ) > > Best wishes, > A. > > > , "omprem" <omprem> wrote: > > > > " Nobody says medical science is perfect. But it is far more > > advanced than so called "yoga" and "oriental medicine" in > > general. I don`t reject that positive element which is present in > > "yogic" and ayurvedic teachings. But we are not leaving in 12 > > century LOL. What we read in ayurvedic samhitas is science (!) > > of that age. But time passed" > > > > > > Yes, time has passed. But the so-called 'discoveries' of modern > > science have only substantiated the claims of yoga and vedanta. > > Science used an outward looking method to discover what was > > known long ago by those using inward looking methods. > > > > Physics, the science accorded the most god-like stature, has, in > > all of its discoveries, only validated the messages of the ancient > > seers. Nothing physics has discovered has invalidated anything > > said by those ancient and modern seers. Everything physics has > > discovered has been in accord with ancient wisdom. Quite a > > feat for old, hopelessly out-dated people without material > > means, wouldn't you say, to know more than modern physics > > researchers with their billions of dollars of equipment? > > > > "Lastly, objective science is same everywhere - it is based of > > exploring the world" > > > > But what constitutes the world? And what constitutes the human > > body? Your beloved 'scientists' are only investigating what their > > senses and instruments bring to their attention. Senses are > > flawed - degrees of blindness, degrees of hearing loss, etc. In > > addition, they have limited range. They can only be aware of > > certain phenomena. Plus, the senses are selective and > > influenced by the psychology of the perceiver. To know more, > > they must design instruments to make them aware of what they > > cannot know directly. So already there are several filters > > screening your beloved from the knowledge they seek. > > > > Medical scientist look only at they know as the physcial body. But > > we know that there is no such thing as a physical body in the > > material sense. There are no solid objects. Everything is energy > > and is in constant flux. So, too, the body. If you now want to > > consider the body as an energy system, then you are extending > > the limits of the body beyond that normally seen by the > > undeveloped senses of the medical scientist. You are now > > including the pranamaya kosha in the definition of body. And now > > you are closer to understanding how the body functions and > > misfunctions. > > > > For example, there is a rhythm of the breath that your medical > > scientists cannot explain. At a given time, one of your nostrils > will > > be dominant. That is, it is easier to breath through one nostril > > than the other. That situation changes every hour and 50 > > minutes, so that the other nostril becomes the dominant nostril. > > This cycle continues day after day, year after year, with an > > important exception that I will look at in a minute. Your medical > > scientists cannot explain that cycle or its purpose. > > > > Yogis and Ayurvedic physcians know that cycle to be associated > > with the ida and pingala nadis. When the right nostril is > > dominant, the energy in the pingala nadi is dominant and is > > speeding up the physical and mental processes of the body. > > When the left nostril is dominant, the prana in the ida nadi is > > dominant and is slowing down the physical and mental > > processes. Every two hours, your systems are being speeded > > up, after which comes a two-hour period of your systems being > > slowed. > > > > Now, we come to the exceptions. > > > > If the prana in the pingala nadi stays dominant for a much longer > > period than its normal two hour cycle, you will be come ill with > > problems related to systems speeding up. The most obvious > > examples are fevers and cancer. Similarly, with the ida nadi's > > prana being dominant, systems are destabilized into illness > > such as poor circulation and coma at the graphic level. > > > > Such prana imbalances will cause changes in the biochemical > > makeup of the body. > > > > The effects of such imbalance are well known in those circle that > > you demean. It is the basis of such treatments as acupuncture, > > which by the way, is a discipline that your beloved western > > medical scientists are adopting. They may not understand, but > > they know it works. Even these unsubtle clods cannot ignore the > > obvious. Can you? > > > > In addition, pranayama such as anuloma viloma will cause the > > normal cycle of nostril dominance to change so that the air is > > equal in each nostril, thus bringing the person into physcial and > > mental balance. > > > > In other words, the speeding up function is rajasic, the slowing > > down function is tamasic and the balancing function is sattvic. > > > > If more of your medical scientists had the subtlety of vision as > > the acupuncturists, the ayurvedic physcians, the yogis, and other > > such 'alternative' health practitioners, the world would have less > > suffering in it. > > > > Omprem > > > > , "Arjuna Taradasa" > > <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > > > > > 93 > > > > > > , "omprem" > > <omprem> wrote: > > > > > > > > "I really wonder what is mystic in keeping diet LOL... Diet is a > > > > matter of medical science, not spiritual path." > > > > > > > > Your beloved medical science is actually quite ignorant on > > how > > > > the human body works, and on its interdependent > > relationship > > > > with the other koshas that comprise a person. > > > > > > > > Medical science is so backward still, it does not deserve its > > > > recent elevation to godlike status. > > > > > > Nobody says medical science is perfect. But it is far more > > advanced > > > than so called "yoga" and "oriental medicine" in general. > > > I don`t reject that positive element which is present in "yogic" > > and > > > ayurvedic teachings. But we are not leaving in 12 century LOL. > > What we > > > read in ayurvedic samhitas is science (!) of that age. But time > > passed > > > . > > > In fact it is ayurveda that is ignorant. What classic text explain > > > functioning at least of physical body correctly? Only sankhya > > type > > > speculations we can find. But enumering pranas explains > > nothing. > > > Lastly, objective science is same everywhere - it is based of > > > exploring the world and not on the doubtful authority of > > medieval > > > scriptures. Lastly, objective science is same everywhere - it is > > based of > > > exploring the world > > > > > > > " If u know, scriptures of hinduism do not prohibit meat. In > > fact > > > > both Vedas and Tantras prescribe it in ritual context." > > > > > > > > Is that along same ritual line as playing with shit? > > > > > > Not at all. By "playing with shit" U may mean tibetan or some > > extreme > > > tantric practices - but they are NOT from scriptures. > > > Vedas PRESCRIBE animal sacrifices. Vedic Rishis ate meat - > > read! > > > Manava-dharmashastra says that "there is no sin in eating > > meat" (na > > > mAMsabhakShaNe doShaH). > > > Tantra uses meat in it`s most sacred ritual - eucharist of Kula, > > kula- > > > yaga. > > > Kauljnana-nirnaya (10 century kaula text) prohibits > > vegetarianism . > > > > > > It is a different question whether to eat meat in general. For > > body it > > > may be good to stay away from red meats. What i say is > > connected with > > > ritual use only. > > > > > > > "Thus, we have to tell people that "Only Love saves". If u are > > in > > > > Love, nothing is needed more. No effort brings us to God. > > Only > > > > His mercy lifts us up" > > > > > > > > It is one thing tell people that they need to be 'in Love'; it > is > > > quite > > > > another thing to suggest how they might arrive at that state. > > > > Effort makes us capable of being in God's presences. Effort > > > > enables us to leave behind dense vibrations and exist as > > > > increasingly higher vibrations. Effort takes us to the > > threshhold of > > > > God. But it is our complete surrender and the Grace of God > > and > > > > Guru that enables us to cross that threshhold into God's > > > > presence. > > > > > > This is ok. No problem in telling correct methods which may > > help in > > > fact if followed with proper motivation. > > > But what U listed is something different. That is why i argued. If > > U > > > said that were advices for long-living, case would be different. > > > > > > Love is the law, love under will. > > > A. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 13, 2004 omprem wrote: > > > There are already are hundreds of thousands of people in the > world today who do not depend on your beloved medical > science, including the entire British royal family. Many people > only see homeopaths or naturopaths. Others see only Ayurvedic > physicians. Others rely on hatha yoga and diet. Others rely on > accupuncture. Richard Smith is the editor of the British Medical Journal, he wrote a very good article in Guardian earlier this year: *"Foregone conclusions* The public is being regularly deceived by the drug trials funded by pharmaceutical companies, loaded to generate the results they need Drug companies spend hundreds of millions of pounds to bring a new drug to market, and tens of millions of pounds to do the clinical trials that are necessary for both registration and marketing. Understandably, they would prefer not to get results from these trials that are unfavourable to their drug. And, despite the ubiquitous uncertainties of science and medicine, they rarely do. How do they manage it?" http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,11381,1122721,00.html The pharmacyindustri dictates (defines) the medicine today. Lars Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 13, 2004 Hi Cathie Thanks for introducing the concept of intention. It is intention that shapes our destiny or at least the road to our destiny. On a karmic level, intention effects us in many ways. If we desire intensely, the object or situation usually appears. In addition, if you harbour guilt about something, that object or situation may reappear; first, to show you that the original event was an illusion and not worthy of guilt (although you are still to learn moral lessons from it), and second, to show you the uselessness of the original desire. The universe always arranges itself to provide what you need. Perhaps not what you want, but wanting is what keeps us bound to this earthly plane. Even if the universe does provide what you want, the purpose may be to give a surfeit of that which is desired so that it is no longer desired. The universe is truly an illusion that takes its `shape' from your own intention and also group intention. These manifestations are our unconscious manipulation of the akash and the elements to produce so-called physical things. This manipulation of astral planes is observable but not measurable and so will forever lie beyond the grasp of science but within the grasp of the observant spiritual seeker.\ Omprem , SophiasHeaven@a... wrote: > In a message dated 10/13/2004 9:24:53 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > omprem writes: > > > But how effective is the scientific method? It uses flawed and > > inadequate senses and an outward orientation, both of which > > contain the seeds of the limitations of the scientific method. > > There is nothing scientific about much of the 'science' being > > conducted to day with our tax dollars. Most of it is a job-creation > > scam. > > > > Also, now they are saying, according to quantum physics and the idea of > INTENT, that scientists get the results they are looking for when doing > experiments. This could account for the varied test results. > > Rather than try to explain this myself, I"ll quote this excerpt from the > writings of a Theoretical Quantum Physicist, Fred Alan Wolf, in "The Spiritual > Universe: one physicist's vision of spirit, soul, matter, and self: > > "Desire, through our powers of observation, actually modifies and > alters the course of the physical world, causing things to occur that would not > normally occur if they were not desired." > The Quantum Watched Pot > > "How does desire affect the physical world? Intent operates in the physical > world by altering the observed state of the world. The fact that intent > affects the physical world refelcts a recent discovery by quantum physicists Yakir > Aharonov and M. Vardi that has received experimental verification by Wayne > Itano and his colleagues. Aharonov and Vardi have shown that the old proverb 'a > watched pot never boils' may have a range of validity previously unsuspected. > They hae discovered a paradoxical situation that arises when a quantum system > is watched carefully. As they put it: > If one checks by continuous observations, if a given quantum > > system evolves from some initial state to some other final > state > along a specific trajectory... the result is always positive, > whether > or not the system would have done so on its own accord. > > "If a quantum system is monitored continuously, we couls say > vigilantly, it will do practically anything. For example ... > " ... the decay of an unstable system. On its own the system would > decay in a few microseconds. But if it is watched continuosly, it will never > decay. All vigilantly watched "quantum pots" never boil, even they they are > heated forever. ... ... > ... > "This implies there is a deep connection between the observer and the > observed. So deep, in fact, that we really cannot separate them. All we can do is > alter the way we experience reality. This is where intent comes in" (pp. > 217-218) > --- > > > So, there you have it: scientific objectivity has a BIG hole in it, otherwise > called, the intent of the observer ( the scientist ) to get the results > he/she is predisposed to watch for. > > Peace, > Cathie > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 13, 2004 omprem wrote: > > This manipulation of astral planes is observable but not > measurable and so will forever lie beyond the grasp of science > but within the grasp of the observant spiritual seeker.\ I would like to express it like this: beyond the grasp of science of today - where objectivity is God. I think that science of tomorrow will look upon objectivity in another (sober) way. Lars Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 In a message dated 10/13/2004 1:34:29 PM Mountain Daylight Time, omprem writes: > On a karmic level, intention effects us in many ways. If we desire > intensely, the object or situation usually appears. In addition, if > you harbour guilt about something, that object or situation may > reappear; first, to show you that the original event was an illusion > and not worthy of guilt (although you are still to learn moral > lessons from it), and second, to show you the uselessness of > the original desire. > re: "an illusion not worthy of guilt" and I would add also, not worthy of FEAR :-) peace, c Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 I look forward to that day. Omprem , Lars Hedström <lars@2...> wrote: > > omprem wrote: > > > > > This manipulation of astral planes is observable but not > > measurable and so will forever lie beyond the grasp of science > > but within the grasp of the observant spiritual seeker.\ > > > I would like to express it like this: beyond the grasp of science of > today - where objectivity is God. > > I think that science of tomorrow will look upon objectivity in another > (sober) way. > > Lars Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 So do I:-) omprem wrote: > > I look forward to that day. > > Omprem > > , Lars Hedström > <lars@2...> wrote: > > > > omprem wrote: > > > > > > > > This manipulation of astral planes is observable but not > > > measurable and so will forever lie beyond the grasp of > science > > > but within the grasp of the observant spiritual seeker.\ > > > > > > I would like to express it like this: beyond the grasp of science > of > > today - where objectivity is God. > > > > I think that science of tomorrow will look upon objectivity in > another > > (sober) way. > > > > Lars > > > > > * Sponsor* > > click here > <http://us.ard./SIG=1299d8l2n/M=315388.5497957.6576270.3001176/D=groups\ /S=1705075991:HM/EXP=1097854810/A=2372354/R=0/SIG=12id813k2/*https://www.orchard\ bank.com/hcs/hcsapplication?pf=PLApply&media=EMYHNL40F21004SS> > > > > ------ > * Links* > > * > / > > * > > <?subject=Un> > > * Terms of > Service <>. > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 Actually, Swami Paramahansa Shivaji, (also known as "Aleister Crowley') says much the same thing in his incredible book "Yoga". There really IS nothing else BUT the observer and the observed and the interaction; there is nothing else to consider! Lilith M. --- SophiasHeaven wrote: > In a message dated 10/13/2004 9:24:53 AM Mountain > Daylight Time, > omprem writes: > > > But how effective is the scientific method? It > uses flawed and > > inadequate senses and an outward orientation, > both of which > > contain the seeds of the limitations of the > scientific method. > > There is nothing scientific about much of the > 'science' being > > conducted to day with our tax dollars. Most of it > is a job-creation > > scam. > > > > Also, now they are saying, according to quantum > physics and the idea of > INTENT, that scientists get the results they are > looking for when doing > experiments. This could account for the varied test > results. > > Rather than try to explain this myself, I"ll quote > this excerpt from the > writings of a Theoretical Quantum Physicist, Fred > Alan Wolf, in "The Spiritual > Universe: one physicist's vision of spirit, soul, > matter, and self: > > "Desire, through our powers of observation, > actually modifies and > alters the course of the physical world, causing > things to occur that would not > normally occur if they were not desired." > The Quantum Watched Pot > > "How does desire affect the physical world? Intent > operates in the physical > world by altering the observed state of the world. > The fact that intent > affects the physical world refelcts a recent > discovery by quantum physicists Yakir > Aharonov and M. Vardi that has received experimental > verification by Wayne > Itano and his colleagues. Aharonov and Vardi have > shown that the old proverb 'a > watched pot never boils' may have a range of > validity previously unsuspected. > They hae discovered a paradoxical situation that > arises when a quantum system > is watched carefully. As they put it: > If one checks by continuous > observations, if a given quantum > > system evolves from some initial > state to some other final > state > along a specific trajectory... the > result is always positive, > whether > or not the system would have done so > on its own accord. > > "If a quantum system is monitored > continuously, we couls say > vigilantly, it will do practically anything. For > example ... > " ... the decay of an unstable system. On > its own the system would > decay in a few microseconds. But if it is watched > continuosly, it will never > decay. All vigilantly watched "quantum pots" never > boil, even they they are > heated forever. ... ... > ... > "This implies there is a deep connection between the > observer and the > observed. So deep, in fact, that we really cannot > separate them. All we can do is > alter the way we experience reality. This is where > intent comes in" (pp. > 217-218) > --- > > > So, there you have it: scientific objectivity has a > BIG hole in it, otherwise > called, the intent of the observer ( the scientist ) > to get the results > he/she is predisposed to watch for. > > Peace, > Cathie > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 15, 2004 93 Yet AC was very scientific and sceptic in his approach - that can be seen from his writings. Science in fact does have it`s limitations; but is has it`s realm as well. Ancient people had mythology - that is undestandable. But what is the use now to reject science and rely on myths? We have to differentiate between spiritual path and coomon life: for meditation it is useful to percieve everything as manifestation of consciousness, but for physical needs we usually have to make physical efforts. Whatever some people here say against modern science, nevertheless they still use electricity, transport, computers... They could have tried "mythological means" to travel to distant places, chant several billion times some kind of bhucharisiddhiprapti-mantra or use magical ointment LOL, but in spite of this they use technologies based upon science. Why? , Lili Masamura <sephirah5> wrote: > Actually, Swami Paramahansa Shivaji, (also known as > "Aleister Crowley') says much the same thing in his > incredible book "Yoga". There really IS nothing else > BUT the observer and the observed and the interaction; > there is nothing else to consider! > Lilith M. > --- SophiasHeaven@a... wrote: > > > In a message dated 10/13/2004 9:24:53 AM Mountain > > Daylight Time, > > omprem writes: > > > > > But how effective is the scientific method? It > > uses flawed and > > > inadequate senses and an outward orientation, > > both of which > > > contain the seeds of the limitations of the > > scientific method. > > > There is nothing scientific about much of the > > 'science' being > > > conducted to day with our tax dollars. Most of it > > is a job-creation > > > scam. > > > > > > > Also, now they are saying, according to quantum > > physics and the idea of > > INTENT, that scientists get the results they are > > looking for when doing > > experiments. This could account for the varied test > > results. > > > > Rather than try to explain this myself, I"ll quote > > this excerpt from the > > writings of a Theoretical Quantum Physicist, Fred > > Alan Wolf, in "The Spiritual > > Universe: one physicist's vision of spirit, soul, > > matter, and self: > > > > "Desire, through our powers of observation, > > actually modifies and > > alters the course of the physical world, causing > > things to occur that would not > > normally occur if they were not desired." > > The Quantum Watched Pot > > > > "How does desire affect the physical world? Intent > > operates in the physical > > world by altering the observed state of the world. > > The fact that intent > > affects the physical world refelcts a recent > > discovery by quantum physicists Yakir > > Aharonov and M. Vardi that has received experimental > > verification by Wayne > > Itano and his colleagues. Aharonov and Vardi have > > shown that the old proverb 'a > > watched pot never boils' may have a range of > > validity previously unsuspected. > > They hae discovered a paradoxical situation that > > arises when a quantum system > > is watched carefully. As they put it: > > If one checks by continuous > > observations, if a given quantum > > > > system evolves from some initial > > state to some other final > > state > > along a specific trajectory... the > > result is always positive, > > whether > > or not the system would have done so > > on its own accord. > > > > "If a quantum system is monitored > > continuously, we couls say > > vigilantly, it will do practically anything. For > > example ... > > " ... the decay of an unstable system. On > > its own the system would > > decay in a few microseconds. But if it is watched > > continuosly, it will never > > decay. All vigilantly watched "quantum pots" never > > boil, even they they are > > heated forever. ... ... > > ... > > "This implies there is a deep connection between the > > observer and the > > observed. So deep, in fact, that we really cannot > > separate them. All we can do is > > alter the way we experience reality. This is where > > intent comes in" (pp. > > 217-218) > > --- > > > > > > So, there you have it: scientific objectivity has a > > BIG hole in it, otherwise > > called, the intent of the observer ( the scientist ) > > to get the results > > he/she is predisposed to watch for. > > > > Peace, > > Cathie > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > _______________________________ > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 15, 2004 It baffles me why you feel that people who see science as it is -- as imperfect -- why you see them as being "against science" -- In the middle ages to be sure, scientists were persectuted for expressing their own kind of Wisdom, which also had it's own element of superstition. I do not understand the duality you see here. Sure the yogis had/have their own science and it is not opposed to secular science, and surely their science has it's own limitations. All truth expressed by humans in any kind of science, whether it is secular science or spiritual science of yogis and spiritual healers, by virtue of it finding expression through the limited vehicle of human expression, such as language which also has obvious limits, is imperfect. There are spiritual healers in the West who do not go by the exact science of the yogis, who achieve very high spiritual evolvement, refine their spiritual bodies within the physical, thereby bringing light to the darkness of matter. Still they are human and this cannot be denied. Even gurus are human. If their science were perfect, they would be capable of living forever in the human body because they would transform it to immortality and perfectly redeem their own flesh and have no need to die. Why do you continue to insist that those who see secular science as it is: as a human system with human flaws indemic to it, are somehow against science. EVEN SCIENTISTS see science this way: as having limitations. I used to work as a secretary for a VERY TALENTED biologist and even he said that science is more like poetry than some scientists like to admit. You are creating this duality in your own mind, I feel. Blessings of the Goddess, Cathie In a message dated 10/14/2004 9:43:54 PM Mountain Daylight Time, bhagatirtha writes: > 93 > > Yet AC was very scientific and sceptic in his approach - that can be > seen from his writings. > > Science in fact does have it`s limitations; but is has it`s realm as > well. Ancient people had mythology - that is undestandable. But what > is the use now to reject science and rely on myths? > We have to differentiate between spiritual path and coomon life: for > meditation it is useful to percieve everything as manifestation of > consciousness, but for physical needs we usually have to make physical > efforts. > Whatever some people here say against modern science, nevertheless > they still use electricity, transport, computers... They could have > tried "mythological means" to travel to distant places, chant several > billion times some kind of bhucharisiddhiprapti-mantra or use magical > ointment LOL, but in spite of this they use technologies based upon > science. Why? > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 15, 2004 if the yogis were perfect in every way,they would be like gods/goddesses, and would be capable of walking through walls, not only astrally. if the yogis were perfect as gods, they would not have to Practice so hard their meditations. the extreme difficulty by which they attain, and maintain once they have attained through rigorous practice and excercise of their spiritual arts/science, bespeaks of their humanity, for if they were perfect as gods, these things would be effortless for them... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 15, 2004 Even the highest yogi, if you shoot him in the heart, he will die, if you cut off his arm with an axe, he will bleed. Even Christ, who was highest consciousness in human form, suffered on the cross, bled, and died. Ok, he transcended death, yes, but first, he bled, and died. Even Christ Wept, because he knew how hard it is to save people from their own darkness. If the science/art of the yogis were Perfect, all a person would have to do is try the meditation and they would attain. In fact, people do meditations all over the world, all the time, and only there are still many who do not attain to the highest spiritual arts, abilities to sit in the cold and keep themselves warm, to stop their own heartbeat and start it back up again -- If it was as simple as following the formula, and all one had to do is recite the proper prayers, EVERYONE could attain and there would be so many .... Same with popping a pill : a pill is the science/art of a secular scientist and it's often not so easy as applying secular science. People undergo radiation treatment for cancer, and die all the time. People take anti-biotics and it does not make the cold go away only shortens the duration by a few days. There is no perfect science, either of secular or spiritual men -- only arts. There are many who read the arts of a spiritual healer or yogi, and try to achieve what that one has achieved, yet do not achieve it. When all is said and done, humans are under the Laws of the Gods/Goddesses, even the Yogis -- even the secular scientists are NOT GODS. Isn't this why the yogis don't like to claim they have attained? Because they KNOW their own limits. They can't levitate 24 hours a day, tirelessly, for instance. It takes great effort. They are human. Advanced yes. Human yes. Gods NO. It's no different for a secular scienctist. He can't heal everyone with his pills and drugs. People die. People go mad and no amount of pills can stop it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 15, 2004 and then I can write a book about it... like all the other gurus do... are you saying those gurus who stick around to write books, are not perfected or they would leave their bodies behind and not write a book? please explain ... In a message dated 10/15/2004 11:22:13 AM Mountain Daylight Time, omprem writes: > If one becomes perfected, why would he/she stay in a human > body with all of its limitations and in space and time with all > those limitations. The perfected being leaves the body and > merges into Brahman just as a raindrop merges into the ocean. > > Implicit in your question is an attachment to life. But all > attachment merely binds you to the mirage of the earthly plane. > Through your spiritual investigations you will change the > vibration of your consciousness and eventually take on the > vibration of Brahman. And then you will be home. > > Omprem Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 15, 2004 Wouldn't it be more unselfish and human to spend less time on yoga practice and more on social work helping your fellow men (and animals)? Lars --- SophiasHeaven wrote > if the yogis were perfect as gods, they would not have to > Practice so > hard their meditations. > the extreme difficulty by which they attain, and maintain once > they > have attained through rigorous practice and excercise of their spiritual > arts/science, bespeaks of their humanity, > for if they were perfect as gods, these > things would be effortless for them... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 15, 2004 "Ancient people had mythology - that is undestandable. But what is the use now to reject science and rely on myths?" Those 'myths' are only 'myths' to people like you who have been given a spiritual lobotomy by the press relations department of the scientific communtity. You have mistakenly bought into the so-called evidence of your senses because it gave your ego a sense of control and you ceded your independence to a closed shop scientific guild. On the other hand, those who have deconditioned themselves through sadhana perceive the wisdom of the ancients and continue employ those ancient findings in their daily lives. Those who have eyes to see will see. Those who have ears to hear will hear. Keep up your sadhana and one day you too will recognize the illusion playing out before us and you will know the wisdom of the ancients. Omprem , "Arjuna Taradasa" <bhagatirtha@m...> wrote: > > 93 > > Yet AC was very scientific and sceptic in his approach - that can be > seen from his writings. > > Science in fact does have it`s limitations; but is has it`s realm as > well. Ancient people had mythology - that is undestandable. But what > is the use now to reject science and rely on myths? > We have to differentiate between spiritual path and coomon life: for > meditation it is useful to percieve everything as manifestation of > consciousness, but for physical needs we usually have to make physical > efforts. > Whatever some people here say against modern science, nevertheless > they still use electricity, transport, computers... They could have > tried "mythological means" to travel to distant places, chant several > billion times some kind of bhucharisiddhiprapti-mantra or use magical > ointment LOL, but in spite of this they use technologies based upon > science. Why? > > > , Lili Masamura <sephirah5> > wrote: > > Actually, Swami Paramahansa Shivaji, (also known as > > "Aleister Crowley') says much the same thing in his > > incredible book "Yoga". There really IS nothing else > > BUT the observer and the observed and the interaction; > > there is nothing else to consider! > > Lilith M. > > --- SophiasHeaven@a... wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 10/13/2004 9:24:53 AM Mountain > > > Daylight Time, > > > omprem writes: > > > > > > > But how effective is the scientific method? It > > > uses flawed and > > > > inadequate senses and an outward orientation, > > > both of which > > > > contain the seeds of the limitations of the > > > scientific method. > > > > There is nothing scientific about much of the > > > 'science' being > > > > conducted to day with our tax dollars. Most of it > > > is a job-creation > > > > scam. > > > > > > > > > > Also, now they are saying, according to quantum > > > physics and the idea of > > > INTENT, that scientists get the results they are > > > looking for when doing > > > experiments. This could account for the varied test > > > results. > > > > > > Rather than try to explain this myself, I"ll quote > > > this excerpt from the > > > writings of a Theoretical Quantum Physicist, Fred > > > Alan Wolf, in "The Spiritual > > > Universe: one physicist's vision of spirit, soul, > > > matter, and self: > > > > > > "Desire, through our powers of observation, > > > actually modifies and > > > alters the course of the physical world, causing > > > things to occur that would not > > > normally occur if they were not desired." > > > The Quantum Watched Pot > > > > > > "How does desire affect the physical world? Intent > > > operates in the physical > > > world by altering the observed state of the world. > > > The fact that intent > > > affects the physical world refelcts a recent > > > discovery by quantum physicists Yakir > > > Aharonov and M. Vardi that has received experimental > > > verification by Wayne > > > Itano and his colleagues. Aharonov and Vardi have > > > shown that the old proverb 'a > > > watched pot never boils' may have a range of > > > validity previously unsuspected. > > > They hae discovered a paradoxical situation that > > > arises when a quantum system > > > is watched carefully. As they put it: > > > If one checks by continuous > > > observations, if a given quantum > > > > > > system evolves from some initial > > > state to some other final > > > state > > > along a specific trajectory... the > > > result is always positive, > > > whether > > > or not the system would have done so > > > on its own accord. > > > > > > "If a quantum system is monitored > > > continuously, we couls say > > > vigilantly, it will do practically anything. For > > > example ... > > > " ... the decay of an unstable system. On > > > its own the system would > > > decay in a few microseconds. But if it is watched > > > continuosly, it will never > > > decay. All vigilantly watched "quantum pots" never > > > boil, even they they are > > > heated forever. ... ... > > > ... > > > "This implies there is a deep connection between the > > > observer and the > > > observed. So deep, in fact, that we really cannot > > > separate them. All we can do is > > > alter the way we experience reality. This is where > > > intent comes in" (pp. > > > 217-218) > > > --- > > > > > > > > > So, there you have it: scientific objectivity has a > > > BIG hole in it, otherwise > > > called, the intent of the observer ( the scientist ) > > > to get the results > > > he/she is predisposed to watch for. > > > > > > Peace, > > > Cathie > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________ > > > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > > http://vote. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 15, 2004 "Even gurus are human. If their science were perfect, they would be capable of living forever in the human body because they would transform it to immortality and perfectly redeem their own flesh and have no need to die." If one becomes perfected, why would he/she stay in a human body with all of its limitations and in space and time with all those limitations. The perfected being leaves the body and merges into Brahman just as a raindrop merges into the ocean. Implicit in your question is an attachment to life. But all attachment merely binds you to the mirage of the earthly plane. Through your spiritual investigations you will change the vibration of your consciousness and eventually take on the vibration of Brahman. And then you will be home. Omprem , SophiasHeaven@a... wrote: > It baffles me why you feel that people who see science as it is -- as > imperfect -- why you see them as being "against science" -- > > In the middle ages to be sure, scientists were persectuted for expressing > their own kind of Wisdom, which also had it's own element of superstition. > > I do not understand the duality you see here. > > Sure the yogis had/have their own science and it is not opposed to secular > science, and surely their science has it's own limitations. All truth expressed > by humans in any kind of science, whether it is secular science or spiritual > science of yogis and spiritual healers, by virtue of it finding expression > through the limited vehicle of human expression, such as language which also has > obvious limits, is imperfect. > > There are spiritual healers in the West who do not go by the exact science of > the yogis, who achieve very high spiritual evolvement, refine their spiritual > bodies within the physical, thereby bringing light to the darkness of matter. > > Still they are human and this cannot be denied. Even gurus are human. If > their science were perfect, they would be capable of living forever in the human > body because they would transform it to immortality and perfectly redeem > their own flesh and have no need to die. > > Why do you continue to insist that those who see secular science as it is: as > a human system with human flaws indemic to it, are somehow against science. > EVEN SCIENTISTS see science this way: as having limitations. I used to work > as a secretary for a VERY TALENTED biologist and even he said that science is > more like poetry than some scientists like to admit. > > You are creating this duality in your own mind, I feel. > > Blessings of the Goddess, > Cathie > In a message dated 10/14/2004 9:43:54 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > bhagatirtha@m... writes: > > > 93 > > > > Yet AC was very scientific and sceptic in his approach - that can be > > seen from his writings. > > > > Science in fact does have it`s limitations; but is has it`s realm as > > well. Ancient people had mythology - that is undestandable. But what > > is the use now to reject science and rely on myths? > > We have to differentiate between spiritual path and coomon life: for > > meditation it is useful to percieve everything as manifestation of > > consciousness, but for physical needs we usually have to make physical > > efforts. > > Whatever some people here say against modern science, nevertheless > > they still use electricity, transport, computers... They could have > > tried "mythological means" to travel to distant places, chant several > > billion times some kind of bhucharisiddhiprapti-mantra or use magical > > ointment LOL, but in spite of this they use technologies based upon > > science. Why? > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 16, 2004 In a message dated 10/16/2004 10:21:30 AM Mountain Daylight Time, omprem writes: > Even if perfected, authentic Gurus still have karma to work off. > > Also, they may choose to remain to aid mankind. > > You have to remember, that authentic Gurus are not like you or > me. > > In addition, once a Guru takes you on as a disciple, the Guru is > responsible for guiding you to spiritual perfection, NO MATTER > HOW LONG IT TAKES OR HOW MANY LIFE TIMES ARE > REQUIRED. This is a tremendous commitment, and the Guru > will assume many forms to accomplish this. > > Omprem > Very interesting, especially the part about the many lifetimes and the many forms. Thanks ! :-] Do the gurus also take forms in some lifetimes in the spiritual realms? OR do they always present themselves in a physical, bodily form...? Btw, I checked my local library and was able to find all the books by Iyengar, and also the book by Judith Anodea, which you recommended. So, I went ahead and put in a request for them and should be getting them soon on interlibrary loan. So, Thanks for the recommendation. Also, I found a book on Amazon.com called Shakti Mantras or some such thing by an American Hindu priest and ordered that along with the book by Barry Long. Also, from the library, copy of Baghavad Gita, and a book on Hinduism by a woman with a Hindu sounding name. And a few others. So! ;-) That should keep me busy for a Little While... Peace, Cathie , SophiasHeaven@a... wrote: > > and then I can write a book about it... like all the other gurus do... > are you saying those gurus who stick around to write books, are not perfected > or they would leave their bodies behind and not write a book? > > please explain ... > In a message dated 10/14/2004 9:58:34 AM Mountain Daylight Time, omprem writes: > Below is my version of a short list of books on nadis and > chakras: > > 1. The Complete Illustrated Book Yoga - Swami Vishnu > Devananda > 2.Fundamentals of Yoga - Rammurti S. Mishra > 3. Eastern Body Western Mind - Anodea Judith > 4. Ayurveda and the Mind: The Healing of Consciousness - Dr. > David Frawley > 5. Light on Pranayama - B.K.S. Iyengar > > Omprem Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 16, 2004 Even if perfected, authentic Gurus still have karma to work off. Also, they may choose to remain to aid mankind. You have to remember, that authentic Gurus are not like you or me. In addition, once a Guru takes you on as a disciple, the Guru is responsible for guiding you to spiritual perfection, NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES OR HOW MANY LIFE TIMES ARE REQUIRED. This is a tremendous commitment, and the Guru will assume many forms to accomplish this. Omprem , SophiasHeaven@a... wrote: > > and then I can write a book about it... like all the other gurus do... > are you saying those gurus who stick around to write books, are not perfected > or they would leave their bodies behind and not write a book? > > please explain ... > > In a message dated 10/15/2004 11:22:13 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > omprem writes: > > > If one becomes perfected, why would he/she stay in a human > > body with all of its limitations and in space and time with all > > those limitations. The perfected being leaves the body and > > merges into Brahman just as a raindrop merges into the ocean. > > > > Implicit in your question is an attachment to life. But all > > attachment merely binds you to the mirage of the earthly plane. > > Through your spiritual investigations you will change the > > vibration of your consciousness and eventually take on the > > vibration of Brahman. And then you will be home. > > > > Omprem > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 16, 2004 " Wouldn't it be more unselfish and human to spend less time on yoga practice and more on social work helping your fellow men (and animals)?" Not every one follows the same path to enlightenment. Some follow the Raja Yoga path of asana, pranayama, meditation. Others follow the Karma Yoga path of selfless service. Some follow the intellectual path of Jnana Yoga. And some follow the Bhakti Yoga path of adoration, seeing the Divine in everyone and everything. Each according to his abilities and karma. One of dangers that I see every day in those who seek to help their fellow man and animals is the tendency to impose their viewpoint on the world and the willingness to take whatever means they deem necessary to achieve their goals. Abortion doctors are murdered. Scientists who use animals have their lives threatened and those of their families. Dissent is quashed. Alternatives are ignored and those who propose those alternatives are vilified. Ego is king and the the 'social worker' becomes both the slave and the autocrat. They condemn themselves and their supporters to additional and very heavy karma. Their silliness is only exceeding by their pathetic nature. Omprem > --- SophiasHeaven@a... wrote > > > if the yogis were perfect as gods, they would not have to > > Practice so > > hard their meditations. > > the extreme difficulty by which they attain, and maintain once > > they > > have attained through rigorous practice and excercise of their spiritual > > arts/science, bespeaks of their humanity, > > > for if they were perfect as gods, these > > things would be effortless for them... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 16, 2004 >One of dangers that I see every day in those who seek to help >their fellow man and animals is the tendency to impose their >viewpoint on the world and the willingness to take whatever >means they deem necessary to achieve their goals. Abortion >doctors are murdered. Scientists who use animals have their >lives threatened and those of their families. Dissent is quashed. >Alternatives are ignored and those who propose those >alternatives are vilified. I planned to keep out of the science debate going on, however, Omprem brought a good point through the quote mentioned above. There are many people who mean for good, but end up trying to force others to think like them. This is one danger that those who try to seek enlightenment through good works must be aware of. Another example of a group of people, who had good intentions but turned to the ways of violence, is PETA (People for Ethical Treatment of Animals). I see no problem with people standing up for animal rights and endorse their passion concerning the subject, but they have been notorious for taking atrocious actions when doing it. Those who walk the path of karma yoga, I believe, must be aware of the reaping of their own unwanted harvest when they take action to achieve enlightenment. Blessings, _______________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 16, 2004 omprem wrote: > > Not every one follows the same path to enlightenment. Some > follow the Raja Yoga path of asana, pranayama, meditation. > Others follow the Karma Yoga path of selfless service. Some > follow the intellectual path of Jnana Yoga. And some follow the > Bhakti Yoga path of adoration, seeing the Divine in everyone and > everything. > But at a certain point, there will be a conflict between spending a lot of time doing yoga and parttake in service for other humans - no matter what kind of yoga you do. This is nothing new. A lot of yogis has given up their spiritual work for helping others. Ofcourse, helping others can alsoo be considered as yoga. Something we should ask us is: why do we want to do yoga? > One of dangers that I see every day in those who seek to help > their fellow man and animals is the tendency to impose their > viewpoint on the world and the willingness to take whatever > means they deem necessary to achieve their goals. Abortion > doctors are murdered. Scientists who use animals have their > lives threatened and those of their families. Dissent is quashed. If yoga has something to do with wisdom and awareness, the risk of helping others in a destructive way shouldn't be so big for a sadhaka. Furthermore, the people you are referring to show passion. "By passion the world is bound, by passion too it is released". Hevajira Tantra Regards Lars Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 16, 2004 SophiasHeaven wrote: > > Also, from the library, copy of Baghavad Gita, and a book on Hinduism > by a > woman with a Hindu sounding name. And a few others. So! ;-) That > should > keep me busy for a Little While... The nobelprizewinner Albert Schweizer meant in his book Indian thought and its development that Baghad Gita was unethic in some ways - and I agree with him. We mustn't swallow everything that comes from east as true. "Let me give you one definition of ethics: It is good to maintain life and to further life; it is bad to damage and destroy Life. And this ethic, profound, universal, has the significance of a religion. It is religion." Albert Schweitzer Lars ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 17, 2004 The notion that preserving life is all-good and taking it is all-bad is ridiculous...what about killing germs that cause disease? What about keeping fatally ill people alive on machines? The notion that death is to be avoided and denied at all costs is part of the foolishness of our society, that fears old age and death, and tries to dodge it in all sorts of nonsensical manners like plastic surgery, yet does not quail to inflict it on people who are not of this society, nor hesitate to revel in its images in virtual reality. The only thing that is unethical about the Bhagavad-Gita is the interpolations about "Brahmins", probably put there so the caste could justify demanding gifts from people. It is clear that A. Schweitzer did not understand the Hindu culture at all. War was not the all-out destruction then that it is now..it was confined to battlefields and was conducted by warriors. Civilians were not involved. It was considered glorious and fitting for a warrior to die in battle, rather than "of old age and strange diseases" as the great warrior Karna put it. Trying to impose modern-day "ethics" on past history is ignorant and absurd. The reason we have what we have today is based on the development of what went on back then. And anyway, I am sure that those "back then" would consider us all a load of dishonourable hypocrites anyway..loudly preaching peace and brotherhood on one hand, while conducting brutal wars of greed on the other, and they would be right, too. Lilith M. --- Lars Hedström <lars wrote: > > SophiasHeaven wrote: > > > > > Also, from the library, copy of Baghavad Gita, and > a book on Hinduism > > by a > > woman with a Hindu sounding name. And a few > others. So! ;-) That > > should > > keep me busy for a Little While... > > > The nobelprizewinner Albert Schweizer meant in his > book Indian thought > and its development that Baghad Gita was unethic in > some ways - and I > agree with him. > > We mustn't swallow everything that comes from east > as true. > > "Let me give you one definition of ethics: It is > good to maintain life > and to further life; it is bad to damage and destroy > Life. And this > ethic, profound, universal, has the significance of > a religion. It is > religion." > > Albert Schweitzer > > Lars > > > > .. > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
