Shakta Tantra - Brahmanical traditions

June 23, 2004

, "Mary Ann" <maryann@m...>

wrote:

> Can anybody clarify the relationships and/or differences between

> Shakta, Tantra, and Brahmanical traditions?

There is no way one can elaborate on any distinction between them.

Ex: There are many Tantras which deal extensively with the worship

of Shakti and propound varnashradharma etc.

What exactly do you mean by a Brahmanical traditions?

If you mean any tradition which recognise caste distinctions and

smritis etc, then Shakta-Tantra is also a Brahmanical tradition.

>Is Shakti Sadhana a

> Shakta-Tantra based group?

Shakti Sadhana is based on Shakta-Tantras, Shaiva Agamas/Tantras,

Vedas, Puranas and Smritis.

sa.

> , kalipadma@j...

> wrote:

> >

> > Parvati is Brahman.

> > Ganesha is Brahman.

> > Vishnu is Brahman.

> > Lakshmi is Brahman.

> > Sarasvati is Brahman.

> >

> > Indeed, is there any aspect of the Divine that is NOT Brahman?

> >

> > So why single out Lord Shiva?

> >

> > -- Len/ Kalipadma

June 23, 2004

Jose --

Even though I have been accused on this list of being "crude, rude, and

lewd," your comment was, I think, out of line.

-- Len/ Kalipadma

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:03:59 -0000 "Jose Enrique Rosa"

<master4114 writes:

> I never read in any book or Tantra Scriptures on the Tantras being

> brahmanical but then since you are so rigid and anal I can see you

> making such statements. I wonder how many people in here believe

> such "stuff"

>

> , "Satish Arigela"

> <satisharigela> wrote:

> > , "Mary Ann" <maryann@m...>

> > wrote:

> > > Can anybody clarify the relationships and/or differences between

>

> > > Shakta, Tantra, and Brahmanical traditions?

> >

> > There is no way one can elaborate on any distinction between them.

> >

> > Ex: There are many Tantras which deal extensively with the worship

>

> > of Shakti and propound varnashradharma etc.

> >

> > What exactly do you mean by a Brahmanical traditions?

> >

> > If you mean any tradition which recognise caste distinctions and

> > smritis etc, then Shakta-Tantra is also a Brahmanical tradition.

> >

> > >Is Shakti Sadhana a

> > > Shakta-Tantra based group?

> >

> > Shakti Sadhana is based on Shakta-Tantras, Shaiva Agamas/Tantras,

> > Vedas, Puranas and Smritis.

> >

> > sa.

> >

>

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June 23, 2004

> On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:03:59 -0000 "Jose Enrique Rosa"

> <master4114> writes:

> > I never read in any book or Tantra Scriptures on the Tantras

>being

> > brahmanical

What happened all of a sudden?

Read this small extract from the conclusion part of an article

titled "The Conservative Character of Tantra: Secrecy, Sacrifice and

This-Worldly Power in Bengali Úâkta Tantra", by Hugh B. Urban in

the International Journal of Tantric Studies.

http://www.asiatica.org/ijts/vol6_no1/paper2_f.php

-------------------------

"To close, I would like to point to the possible implications of

this study for our understanding of Indian Tantric and yogic

traditions as a whole. Rather than a primarily revolutionary,

subversive or deviant phenomenon, Tantra is in many cases better

understood as a conservative, elitist and highly orthodox tradition.

Its aim is often not to undermine, but rather to reinforce and

defend the privileges of ritual experts, particularly

brâhmaṇs. As

such, the esoteric rites and teachings of the tantras often become

especially important during those historical periods, and in those

political contexts, in which brâhmaṇic authority is most

acutely

threatened (such as Muslim-dominated Bengal of the 16th century).

But in any case, whether it might be "subversive" or "conservative,"

each particular Tantric tradition needs to be understood concretely

within its historical, social and political context -- something

which has been too often ignored by more textually and

philosophically-oriented scholars. "

-------------------------

Apart from this, there are scores of statements in Tantras which

display that strong adherence to VarnashramaDharma and other

Brahmanical ideals in Tantras. You may refer to earlier discussions

in this list on that or read the Tantras themselves.

sa.

> >

> > , "Satish Arigela"

> > <satisharigela> wrote:

> > > , "Mary Ann"

<maryann@m...>

> > > wrote:

> > > > Can anybody clarify the relationships and/or differences

between

> >

> > > > Shakta, Tantra, and Brahmanical traditions?

> > >

> > > There is no way one can elaborate on any distinction between

them.

> > >

> > > Ex: There are many Tantras which deal extensively with the

worship

> >

> > > of Shakti and propound varnashradharma etc.

> > >

> > > What exactly do you mean by a Brahmanical traditions?

> > >

> > > If you mean any tradition which recognise caste distinctions

and

> > > smritis etc, then Shakta-Tantra is also a Brahmanical

tradition.

> > >

> > > >Is Shakti Sadhana a

> > > > Shakta-Tantra based group?

> > >

> > > Shakti Sadhana is based on Shakta-Tantras, Shaiva

Agamas/Tantras,

> > > Vedas, Puranas and Smritis.

> > >

> > > sa.

June 24, 2004

Om Namah Shivaye!

Tantra is "Totality".

It is beyond caste, creed, colour or any religion.

To put it simply - a philosophy which expounds (explains in totality) the

Ultimate Truth is Tantra.

Virendra.

Satish Arigela <satisharigela wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:03:59 -0000 "Jose Enrique Rosa"

> <master4114> writes:

> > I never read in any book or Tantra Scriptures on the Tantras

>being

> > brahmanical

What happened all of a sudden?

Read this small extract from the conclusion part of an article

titled "The Conservative Character of Tantra: Secrecy, Sacrifice and

This-Worldly Power in Bengali Úâkta Tantra", by Hugh B. Urban in

the International Journal of Tantric Studies.

http://www.asiatica.org/ijts/vol6_no1/paper2_f.php

-------------------------

"To close, I would like to point to the possible implications of

this study for our understanding of Indian Tantric and yogic

traditions as a whole. Rather than a primarily revolutionary,

subversive or deviant phenomenon, Tantra is in many cases better

understood as a conservative, elitist and highly orthodox tradition.

Its aim is often not to undermine, but rather to reinforce and

defend the privileges of ritual experts, particularly

brâhmaṇs. As

such, the esoteric rites and teachings of the tantras often become

especially important during those historical periods, and in those

political contexts, in which brâhmaṇic authority is most

acutely

threatened (such as Muslim-dominated Bengal of the 16th century).

But in any case, whether it might be "subversive" or "conservative,"

each particular Tantric tradition needs to be understood concretely

within its historical, social and political context -- something

which has been too often ignored by more textually and

philosophically-oriented scholars. "

-------------------------

Apart from this, there are scores of statements in Tantras which

display that strong adherence to VarnashramaDharma and other

Brahmanical ideals in Tantras. You may refer to earlier discussions

in this list on that or read the Tantras themselves.

sa.

> >

> > , "Satish Arigela"

> > <satisharigela> wrote:

> > > , "Mary Ann"

<maryann@m...>

> > > wrote:

> > > > Can anybody clarify the relationships and/or differences

between

> >

> > > > Shakta, Tantra, and Brahmanical traditions?

> > >

> > > There is no way one can elaborate on any distinction between

them.

> > >

> > > Ex: There are many Tantras which deal extensively with the

worship

> >

> > > of Shakti and propound varnashradharma etc.

> > >

> > > What exactly do you mean by a Brahmanical traditions?

> > >

> > > If you mean any tradition which recognise caste distinctions

and

> > > smritis etc, then Shakta-Tantra is also a Brahmanical

tradition.

> > >

> > > >Is Shakti Sadhana a

> > > > Shakta-Tantra based group?

> > >

> > > Shakti Sadhana is based on Shakta-Tantras, Shaiva

Agamas/Tantras,

> > > Vedas, Puranas and Smritis.

> > >

> > > sa.

/

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June 24, 2004

In a message dated 6/23/2004 8:24:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

master4114 writes:

> I never read in any book or Tantra Scriptures on the Tantras being

> brahmanical but then since you are so rigid and anal I can see you

> making such statements. I wonder how many people in here believe

> such "stuff"

>

There are plenty of Shakta Brahmins in West Bengal what do you mean exactly?

June 24, 2004

virendraqazi wrote: Om Namah Shivaye! Tantra is "Totality". It is

beyond caste, creed, colour or any religion.To put it simply - a

philosophy which expounds (explains in totality) the Ultimate Truth

is Tantra.

Thank you Shri Virendra. Perhaps that is why they say, Tantra is not

for everybody and anybody especially to those who still holding on to

divisions [ like caste, creed, colour and religion]

June 24, 2004

I am so sorry, but YES, the Tantras originally MAY have been seperate, but over

time the boundaries have blurred or it may have been the other way.

and Hinduisam is the ONLY religion that tolerates any point of view.

Jose Enrique Rosa <master4114 wrote: I never read in any book or

Tantra Scriptures on the Tantras being

brahmanical but then since you are so rigid and anal I can see you

making such statements. I wonder how many people in here believe

such "stuff"

, "Satish Arigela"

<satisharigela> wrote:

> , "Mary Ann" <maryann@m...>

> wrote:

> > Can anybody clarify the relationships and/or differences between

> > Shakta, Tantra, and Brahmanical traditions?

>

> There is no way one can elaborate on any distinction between them.

>

> Ex: There are many Tantras which deal extensively with the worship

> of Shakti and propound varnashradharma etc.

>

> What exactly do you mean by a Brahmanical traditions?

>

> If you mean any tradition which recognise caste distinctions and

> smritis etc, then Shakta-Tantra is also a Brahmanical tradition.

>

> >Is Shakti Sadhana a

> > Shakta-Tantra based group?

>

> Shakti Sadhana is based on Shakta-Tantras, Shaiva Agamas/Tantras,

> Vedas, Puranas and Smritis.

>

> sa.

>

/

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June 24, 2004

, "N. Madasamy"

<ashwini_puralasamy> wrote:

> virendraqazi wrote: Om Namah Shivaye! Tantra is "Totality". It is

> beyond caste, creed, colour or any religion.To put it simply - a

> philosophy which expounds (explains in totality) the Ultimate

Truth

> is Tantra.

>

> Thank you Shri Virendra. Perhaps that is why they say, Tantra is

>not

> for everybody and anybody especially to those who still holding on

>to

> divisions [ like caste, creed, colour and religion]

That Tantra is not for those who hold to divisions, is wrong both in

theory and practice. I know Tantriks and Tantrik practices

personally.

As for theory, there are just too many statements and very detailed

instructions as to how and when these distinctions need to be

maintained and when those distinctions should not be maintained.

Nora:I dont merely quote books.

The idea of somebody studying Tantra or Veda for academic purposes

is alien to India. In India only those who practice and have

interest in Tantra read those Tantric texts. Even some professors

who say they have only academic interest in Tantra in India, are

actually Tantrics which they deny in public.

However, there is a recent trend among some schloars who are

interested only for academic purposes. Some are afraid to ackowledge

the presence of varnashrama etc in Tantra because they are probably

afraid of Tantra being looked down upon, given the bad reputation of

the concept of caste, which can possibly sabotage their efforts to

spread the message of Tantra.

But then,

satyameva jayate!

June 24, 2004

In the essay I've been reading that inspired the question that

began this thread (which source is an article entitled "'Sa Ham - I

Am She': Woman as Goddess" by Rita Das Gupta Sherma), the

author states:

"The female body, which according to orthodox norms, is the

epitome of impure materiality, becomes, in Tantra, the highest

means for ritualizing wisdom - both for the woman herself and

for her spiritual partner. Her physiological functions and fluids,

on which Samkhya-Yoga philosophy projects the imprisoning

lower gunas (especially rajas) and the stamp of impurity, are

envisioned in many sects of Tantra as the material manifestation

of the power of the Goddess."

I have wondered about the elevation of the female to Divine

status in Tantra, feeling it to be a mirror image of the degradation

of women in the more traditional or ascetic practices (which

Patanjali's yoga sutras are considered part of due to their focus

on transcending the body, according to this essay). This is not

addressed in the essay.

I don't consider my interest in these things as only intellectual

because it comes from practicing hatha yoga and looking into

the traditions that yoga comes from.

, "Satish Arigela"

<satisharigela> wrote:

> , "N. Madasamy"

> <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote:

> > virendraqazi wrote: Om Namah Shivaye! Tantra is "Totality". It

is

> > beyond caste, creed, colour or any religion.To put it simply - a

> > philosophy which expounds (explains in totality) the Ultimate

> Truth

> > is Tantra.

> >

> > Thank you Shri Virendra. Perhaps that is why they say, Tantra

is

> >not

> > for everybody and anybody especially to those who still

holding on

> >to

> > divisions [ like caste, creed, colour and religion]

>

> That Tantra is not for those who hold to divisions, is wrong

both in

> theory and practice. I know Tantriks and Tantrik practices

> personally.

>

> As for theory, there are just too many statements and very

detailed

> instructions as to how and when these distinctions need to be

> maintained and when those distinctions should not be

maintained.

>

> Nora:I dont merely quote books.

> The idea of somebody studying Tantra or Veda for academic

purposes

> is alien to India. In India only those who practice and have

> interest in Tantra read those Tantric texts. Even some

professors

> who say they have only academic interest in Tantra in India, are

> actually Tantrics which they deny in public.

> However, there is a recent trend among some schloars who

are

> interested only for academic purposes. Some are afraid to

ackowledge

> the presence of varnashrama etc in Tantra because they are

probably

> afraid of Tantra being looked down upon, given the bad

reputation of

> the concept of caste, which can possibly sabotage their efforts

to

> spread the message of Tantra.

>

> But then,

> satyameva jayate!

June 24, 2004

In a message dated 6/24/2004 9:32:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

satisharigela writes:

> As for impurity of females, what the smritis say is that, they are

> impure only for the 3 day period. It further holds that they need

> not perform tough austerities because all the sins performed by them

> are washed away during the 3 day period. Due to her sins washing

> away during this period she is considered impure only for those

> particular days after which she is considered a pure being, whom

> everyone is supposed to respect.

>

Interesting that you should mention the womens menstral cycle. From what I

have always found studying western/eastern occult traditions is that menstral

fluid is always regarded as very powerful....

I think that viewing it as impure is probably a more recent trend. I for one

can attest that I always tend to intuit my girlfriends time by having mood

swings myself.....I guess Abrahamic faith followers might say that shes

summoning

demons with it hahah

I always thought that the Shakti Pith at Khamakhya, Assam would be nice to

visit and see the earths menstral cyle there, it's viewed as sacred -so I

suppose it's all in how you look at it.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

http://artconspiracy.com/artists/swastik.htm

http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/lionserpent

June 24, 2004

So what fascinates you about Tantra is that it is a pro-female, pro-women

spiritual tradition, in contrast to the most other spiritual traditions (in

India and elswhere)?

Alexandra

Mary Ann <maryann wrote:

In the essay I've been reading that inspired the question that

began this thread (which source is an article entitled "'Sa Ham - I

Am She': Woman as Goddess" by Rita Das Gupta Sherma), the

author states:

"The female body, which according to orthodox norms, is the

epitome of impure materiality, becomes, in Tantra, the highest

means for ritualizing wisdom - both for the woman herself and

for her spiritual partner. Her physiological functions and fluids,

on which Samkhya-Yoga philosophy projects the imprisoning

lower gunas (especially rajas) and the stamp of impurity, are

envisioned in many sects of Tantra as the material manifestation

of the power of the Goddess."

I have wondered about the elevation of the female to Divine

status in Tantra, feeling it to be a mirror image of the degradation

of women in the more traditional or ascetic practices (which

Patanjali's yoga sutras are considered part of due to their focus

on transcending the body, according to this essay). This is not

addressed in the essay.

I don't consider my interest in these things as only intellectual

because it comes from practicing hatha yoga and looking into

the traditions that yoga comes from.

, "Satish Arigela"

<satisharigela> wrote:

> , "N. Madasamy"

> <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote:

> > virendraqazi wrote: Om Namah Shivaye! Tantra is "Totality". It

is

> > beyond caste, creed, colour or any religion.To put it simply - a

> > philosophy which expounds (explains in totality) the Ultimate

> Truth

> > is Tantra.

> >

> > Thank you Shri Virendra. Perhaps that is why they say, Tantra

is

> >not

> > for everybody and anybody especially to those who still

holding on

> >to

> > divisions [ like caste, creed, colour and religion]

>

> That Tantra is not for those who hold to divisions, is wrong

both in

> theory and practice. I know Tantriks and Tantrik practices

> personally.

>

> As for theory, there are just too many statements and very

detailed

> instructions as to how and when these distinctions need to be

> maintained and when those distinctions should not be

maintained.

>

> Nora:I dont merely quote books.

> The idea of somebody studying Tantra or Veda for academic

purposes

> is alien to India. In India only those who practice and have

> interest in Tantra read those Tantric texts. Even some

professors

> who say they have only academic interest in Tantra in India, are

> actually Tantrics which they deny in public.

> However, there is a recent trend among some schloars who

are

> interested only for academic purposes. Some are afraid to

ackowledge

> the presence of varnashrama etc in Tantra because they are

probably

> afraid of Tantra being looked down upon, given the bad

reputation of

> the concept of caste, which can possibly sabotage their efforts

to

> spread the message of Tantra.

>

> But then,

> satyameva jayate!

/

June 24, 2004

, "Mary Ann" <maryann@m...>

wrote:

> "The female body, which according to orthodox norms, is the

> epitome of impure materiality, becomes, in Tantra, the highest

> means for ritualizing wisdom -

Women are accorded a special status in the vedic tradition too.

Ex: Many vedic yajnas are incomplete without the help of one's wife.

No wife - no vedic yajnas(some). Women have specific duties to

perform in vedic yajnas.

As for impurity of females, what the smritis say is that, they are

impure only for the 3 day period. It further holds that they need

not perform tough austerities because all the sins performed by them

are washed away during the 3 day period. Due to her sins washing

away during this period she is considered impure only for those

particular days after which she is considered a pure being, whom

everyone is supposed to respect.

> I have wondered about the elevation of the female to Divine

> status in Tantra, feeling it to be a mirror image of the

>degradation

> of women in the more traditional or ascetic practices (which

> Patanjali's yoga sutras are considered part of due to their focus

> on transcending the body, according to this essay). This is not

> addressed in the essay.

That is mainly because in those scriptures the situation is such

that a rishi will be teaching this to probably one of his male

disciples. In the case of Yoga Vashishta, Rama is being taught.

You can refer to the Jnana khanda of Tripura-Rahasya where the

enlightened princess Hemalekha talks about the human body(both male

and female), in the same way.

> I don't consider my interest in these things as only intellectual

> because it comes from practicing hatha yoga and looking into

> the traditions that yoga comes from.

I wasnt referring to you when I wrote about studying these things

for academic purposs. It was meant to explain Nora to provide some

clarification about myself.

Btw, regarding my 1st posting in this thread, I failed to notice

that you were asking about Shakti-Sadhana group and not Shakti-

sadhana itself and hence my answer that shakti-sadhana is based

on......etc..

Devi Bhakta addressed it in his posting.

sa.

>

> , "Satish Arigela"

> <satisharigela> wrote:

> > , "N. Madasamy"

> > <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote:

> > > virendraqazi wrote: Om Namah Shivaye! Tantra is "Totality". It

> is

> > > beyond caste, creed, colour or any religion.To put it simply -

a

> > > philosophy which expounds (explains in totality) the Ultimate

> > Truth

> > > is Tantra.

> > >

> > > Thank you Shri Virendra. Perhaps that is why they say, Tantra

> is

> > >not

> > > for everybody and anybody especially to those who still

> holding on

> > >to

> > > divisions [ like caste, creed, colour and religion]

> >

> > That Tantra is not for those who hold to divisions, is wrong

> both in

> > theory and practice. I know Tantriks and Tantrik practices

> > personally.

> >

> > As for theory, there are just too many statements and very

> detailed

> > instructions as to how and when these distinctions need to be

> > maintained and when those distinctions should not be

> maintained.

> >

> > Nora:I dont merely quote books.

> > The idea of somebody studying Tantra or Veda for academic

> purposes

> > is alien to India. In India only those who practice and have

> > interest in Tantra read those Tantric texts. Even some

> professors

> > who say they have only academic interest in Tantra in India, are

> > actually Tantrics which they deny in public.

> > However, there is a recent trend among some schloars who

> are

> > interested only for academic purposes. Some are afraid to

> ackowledge

> > the presence of varnashrama etc in Tantra because they are

> probably

> > afraid of Tantra being looked down upon, given the bad

> reputation of

> > the concept of caste, which can possibly sabotage their efforts

> to

> > spread the message of Tantra.

> >

> > But then,

> > satyameva jayate!

June 24, 2004

What fascinates me is that religions have been created that

either denigrate or elevate the female / feminine. I see both the

low and the high as showing difficulty in simply accepting all of

humanity's gifts in life- and love-affirming ways.

, alexandra_108

<alexandra_108> wrote:

> So what fascinates you about Tantra is that it is a pro-female,

pro-women

> spiritual tradition, in contrast to the most other spiritual

traditions (in India and elswhere)?

>

> Alexandra

>

> Mary Ann <maryann@m...> wrote:

> In the essay I've been reading that inspired the question that

> began this thread (which source is an article entitled "'Sa Ham

- I

> Am She': Woman as Goddess" by Rita Das Gupta Sherma),

the

> author states:

>

> "The female body, which according to orthodox norms, is the

> epitome of impure materiality, becomes, in Tantra, the highest

> means for ritualizing wisdom - both for the woman herself and

> for her spiritual partner. Her physiological functions and fluids,

> on which Samkhya-Yoga philosophy projects the imprisoning

> lower gunas (especially rajas) and the stamp of impurity, are

> envisioned in many sects of Tantra as the material

manifestation

> of the power of the Goddess."

>

> I have wondered about the elevation of the female to Divine

> status in Tantra, feeling it to be a mirror image of the

degradation

> of women in the more traditional or ascetic practices (which

> Patanjali's yoga sutras are considered part of due to their

focus

> on transcending the body, according to this essay). This is not

> addressed in the essay.

>

> I don't consider my interest in these things as only intellectual

> because it comes from practicing hatha yoga and looking into

> the traditions that yoga comes from.

>

> , "Satish Arigela"

> <satisharigela> wrote:

> > , "N. Madasamy"

> > <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote:

> > > virendraqazi wrote: Om Namah Shivaye! Tantra is "Totality".

It

> is

> > > beyond caste, creed, colour or any religion.To put it simply -

a

> > > philosophy which expounds (explains in totality) the

Ultimate

> > Truth

> > > is Tantra.

> > >

> > > Thank you Shri Virendra. Perhaps that is why they say,

Tantra

> is

> > >not

> > > for everybody and anybody especially to those who still

> holding on

> > >to

> > > divisions [ like caste, creed, colour and religion]

> >

> > That Tantra is not for those who hold to divisions, is wrong

> both in

> > theory and practice. I know Tantriks and Tantrik practices

> > personally.

> >

> > As for theory, there are just too many statements and very

> detailed

> > instructions as to how and when these distinctions need to

be

> > maintained and when those distinctions should not be

> maintained.

> >

> > Nora:I dont merely quote books.

> > The idea of somebody studying Tantra or Veda for academic

> purposes

> > is alien to India. In India only those who practice and have

> > interest in Tantra read those Tantric texts. Even some

> professors

> > who say they have only academic interest in Tantra in India,

are

> > actually Tantrics which they deny in public.

> > However, there is a recent trend among some schloars who

> are

> > interested only for academic purposes. Some are afraid to

> ackowledge

> > the presence of varnashrama etc in Tantra because they are

> probably

> > afraid of Tantra being looked down upon, given the bad

> reputation of

> > the concept of caste, which can possibly sabotage their

efforts

> to

> > spread the message of Tantra.

> >

> > But then,

> > satyameva jayate!

>

> Sponsor

>

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Service.

>

June 24, 2004

What fascinates me is that religions have been created that

either denigrate or elevate the female / feminine. I see both the

low and the high as showing difficulty in simply accepting all of

humanity's gifts in life- and love-affirming ways.

[Mouse] You pointed at the crux of the problem. In sexual relationships

those two would be sadistic and masochistic (as opposite to normal).

June 24, 2004

two things. 1 non controversial; 1 controversial.

1. There is a temple in Kerala where Devi has mestural cycles.

"Here you also find a temple to goddess Parvati at Chengannur, this goddess has

her Menstrual Periods , and the same has been scientifically been proved too."

see http://www.mouthshut.com/readreview/21894-1.html

and also

http://www.maiyam.com/tnhistory/11875.11.36.09.html

where this is discussed.

2. My guru maintained that there is no pollution. She said you can and must do

pooja on these days. My wife being rather conservative and was not willing but

Guru insisted that she help when She was doing pooja when she stayed in my

house.

The simple question was is not the blood inside flowing out? bathe and have

proper precautions the day is just another day. As you said the concept of

"pollution" came later.(T think).

{Kochu cringes as brickbats hit hin *smile*}

swastik108 wrote:

In a message dated 6/24/2004 9:32:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

satisharigela writes:

> As for impurity of females, what the smritis say is that, they are impure only

for the 3 day period. It further holds that they need not perform tough

austerities because all the sins performed by them are washed away during the 3

day period. Due to her sins washing away during this period she is considered

impure only for those particular days after which she is considered a pure

being, whom everyone is supposed to respect.

>

Interesting that you should mention the womens menstral cycle. From what I have

always found studying western/eastern occult traditions is that menstral

fluid is always regarded as very powerful....

I think that viewing it as impure is probably a more recent trend. I for one can

attest that I always tend to intuit my girlfriends time by having mood swings

myself.....I guess Abrahamic faith followers might say that shes summoning

demons with it hahah

I always thought that the Shakti Pith at Khamakhya, Assam would be nice to visit

and see the earths menstral cyle there, it's viewed as sacred -so I suppose it's

all in how you look at it.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

http://artconspiracy.com/artists/swastik.htm

http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/lionserpent

/

June 24, 2004

Interesting that you should mention the womens menstral cycle. From what I

have always found studying western/eastern occult traditions is that

menstral fluid is always regarded as very powerful....

[Mouse] Powerful but not necessarily healthy for others.

I think that viewing it as impure is probably a more recent trend.

[Mouse] "Impure" idea probably evolved from the "unsafe to touch at that

time". As a remote analogy, few would call fire impure - and even fewer

would walk into it (for health reasons :-).

I guess Abrahamic faith followers might say that shes summoning demons with

it hahah

[Mouse] Hmm, an expert on Abrahamic faith...?

June 24, 2004

Mary Ann wrote: What fascinates me is that religions have been created that

either denigrate or elevate the female / feminine. I see both the low and the

high as showing difficulty in simply accepting all of humanity's gifts in life-

and love-affirming ways.

Mary,

I am sorry to say that you are up against a male dominted view of the

world when it comes to all sorts of topic. And it shows in this group

too. Good luck

June 24, 2004

, sankara menon <kochu1tz>

wrote:

> said you can and must do pooja on these days. >As you said the ?

>concept of "pollution" came later.(T think).

Namaste,

When Indra killed a certain sage named Trishira, who is the son of

Vishvakarma, it amounted to him committing a Brahma-hatya, and that

too a sage.

Due to that Brahma-hatya papa he lost his position as Indra. When he

asks someone for a solution he is told that he can be redeemed of

that sin only if someone is willing to bear his sin for him.

After asking a lot of sages and other beings only three agree to

bear this Brahma-hatya papa out of great compassion. Among these

three, water(or oceans) share this sin in the form of foam, women

out of compassion agree to bear this sin in the form of their

monthly cycles. I dont remember the third one. It is something like

trees or something else.

>From the puranic view point that is the reason for pollution. It

being an outcome of a great sacrifice made to bear 1/3rd of the

Brahma hatya pataka.

This is mentioned in Devi Bhagavata or in some Purana which I dont

exactly recall.

Indra being a representation of something in the mind, there might

be some esoteric meaning to all this which I dont exactly know at

this point.

Probably due to that sacrifice they are granted the boon that all

their sins get washed away after that(This last statement is my

guess and not a statement from smritis).

Rgds

> swastik108@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 6/24/2004 9:32:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

satisharigela writes:

>

> > As for impurity of females, what the smritis say is that, they

are impure only for the 3 day period. It further holds that they

need not perform tough austerities because all the sins performed by

them are washed away during the 3 day period. Due to her sins

washing away during this period she is considered impure only for

those particular days after which she is considered a pure being,

whom everyone is supposed to respect.

> >

>

> Interesting that you should mention the womens menstral cycle.

>From what I have always found studying western/eastern occult

traditions is that menstral

> fluid is always regarded as very powerful....

>

> I think that viewing it as impure is probably a more recent trend.

I for one can attest that I always tend to intuit my girlfriends

time by having mood swings myself.....I guess Abrahamic faith

followers might say that shes summoning demons with it hahah

>

> I always thought that the Shakti Pith at Khamakhya, Assam would be

nice to visit and see the earths menstral cyle there, it's viewed as

sacred -so I suppose it's all in how you look at it.

>

> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

> http://artconspiracy.com/artists/swastik.htm

> http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/lionserpent

June 24, 2004

Mary Ann wrote "What fascinates me is that religions have been

created that either denigrate or elevate the female / feminine. I

see both the low and the high as showing difficulty in simply

accepting all of humanity's gifts in life- and love-affirming

ways."

Dearest Mary Ann, that is your fascination and you are entitled to

it. But there are many others like me who does not share your object

of fascination. It is amazing that there are some people who are just

like a concrete wall, and they do not spare any room for discussion.

You are wrong, and that is YOU ARE WRONG! So me it serve no

motivation to continue to talk or discuss with someone who have

already decided that "You are wrong!". That is why sometimes

I choose silence. Maybe coward to others but a noble way to me. That

is all I have to say right now.

June 24, 2004

satisharigela wrote "Nora I dont merely quote books."

Now this interest me. When I say "being bookish" and issues

reflection of me. What gives you an idea that I am directing at you

or anybody. Do you feel this way Satish? If you do, then my apology.

I quote from Books. I have many books. Even Shri Virendra Qazi look

impress with my private collection when he came to visit, but the

main thing is that, I hardly have any time to really sit and read all

of them, but to use them as reference to confirm and clarify when

certain topic are being discussed. Sometimes these books becomes my

object of fascination. I like to sit and just look at the book. Buy

them, put them in the book shelf and thereafter spend hours admiring

them. LOL.

How I wish I be able to sit the whole day and read, but then again,

that is where the danger is. That is perhaps my own fear and I am

trying to reflect that fear. Reading is good. We must read but

sometimes it becomes infectious. What is the point of reading but

unable to practice or apply what you have read.

June 25, 2004

Namaste Maryji,

I just to just share my thoughts on this ;

You could compare apple to an apple as they have similar feature But you cannot

compare man to woman as both have unique features. They are both special in

their own ways .Therefore they are of course not equal nor is one is higher than

the other .

Secondly religion talks about looking beyond mere body or physical and

phsycological factors. Truly the soul has no distinction. Sprituality talks

about identfying the true nature of this soul and its its connection to

something higher.Sadhana would make us realise to go beyond this limitation and

realise out true nature .................

If you get to a good mango tree do not count the leaves of the tree but eat the

mango and see how it taste . Guruji gave us KS and the moderator have

painstakingly worked in making it more presentable than ever .This group is

about sakthi sadhana so why dont we delve into its recitation-sadhana( that

would not degenerate anybody) and all of us can share their experience after

that .

Jai Maa!!

Jose Enrique Rosa <master4114 wrote:

Mary Ann wrote: What fascinates me is that religions have been created that

either denigrate or elevate the female / feminine. I see both the low and the

high as showing difficulty in simply accepting all of humanity's gifts in life-

and love-affirming ways.

Mary,

I am sorry to say that you are up against a male dominted view of the

world when it comes to all sorts of topic. And it shows in this group

too. Good luck

/

June 25, 2004

Dear kannan: I agree, this group is about Shakti Sadhana, and

that means different things to different people. Is someone

stopping you from utilizing the KS? I hope not! If it is your "power

tool" of choice, then have at it

BTW there is a great essay called Power in its Place from the

book Is the Goddess A Feminist? The essay is by Usha Menon

and Richard A. Shweder, and whenever I get the time, I will post

some of it for Shakti Sadhana for those who are interested.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Love,

Mary Ann

, kanna krishnan

<kanna_krishnan2002> wrote:

> Namaste Maryji,

>

> I just to just share my thoughts on this ;

>

> You could compare apple to an apple as they have similar

feature But you cannot compare man to woman as both have

unique features. They are both special in their own ways

..Therefore they are of course not equal nor is one is higher than

the other .

>

> Secondly religion talks about looking beyond mere body or

physical and phsycological factors. Truly the soul has no

distinction. Sprituality talks about identfying the true nature of this

soul and its its connection to something higher.Sadhana would

make us realise to go beyond this limitation and realise out true

nature .................

>

> If you get to a good mango tree do not count the leaves of the

tree but eat the mango and see how it taste . Guruji gave us KS

and the moderator have painstakingly worked in making it more

presentable than ever .This group is about sakthi sadhana so

why dont we delve into its recitation-sadhana( that would not

degenerate anybody) and all of us can share their experience

after that .

>

> Jai Maa!!

>

> Jose Enrique Rosa <master4114> wrote:

> Mary Ann wrote: What fascinates me is that religions have

been created that

> either denigrate or elevate the female / feminine. I see both the

low and the high as showing difficulty in simply accepting all of

humanity's gifts in life- and love-affirming ways.

>

> Mary,

>

> I am sorry to say that you are up against a male dominted view

of the

> world when it comes to all sorts of topic. And it shows in this

group

> too. Good luck

>

> Sponsor

>

> Links

>

> /

>

> Terms of

Service.

>

June 25, 2004

Hi Nora: I'm not sure what you are meaning to say here, other

than that you don't agree with how I see some things and you're

not fascinated with the same thing that I am in terms of how I

answered alexandra's question to me.

I'm just responding to this 'cause I found it a bit confusing and

wanted to clarify that I have not judged you as wrong about

anything.

Mary Ann

, "N. Madasamy"

<ashwini_puralasamy> wrote:

> Mary Ann wrote "What fascinates me is that religions have

been

> created that either denigrate or elevate the female / feminine. I

> see both the low and the high as showing difficulty in simply

> accepting all of humanity's gifts in life- and love-affirming

> ways."

>

> Dearest Mary Ann, that is your fascination and you are entitled

to

> it. But there are many others like me who does not share your

object

> of fascination. It is amazing that there are some people who

are just

> like a concrete wall, and they do not spare any room for

discussion.

> You are wrong, and that is YOU ARE WRONG! So me it serve

no

> motivation to continue to talk or discuss with someone who

have

> already decided that "You are wrong!". That is why sometimes

> I choose silence. Maybe coward to others but a noble way to

me. That

> is all I have to say right now.

June 25, 2004

Namaste Mary Ann,

You seems more keen on discussion of modern wirters interpretation of feminism

rather than looking at KS as a sadhana tool for experincing true sadhana sakthi

.. But you are right to say the word Sakthi sadhana can be interpreted in

different ways and you have right to your opinion therefore we will let the

administrators decide whether any feminist or machovistic related articles are

really relevant to the aim of this group .......................

I trust the matter are at good hands(the administrators) therefore would not

continue on this matter.

And I too wish you good luck.You really needed it!

Jai Maa!!

Mary Ann <maryann wrote:

Dear kannan: I agree, this group is about Shakti Sadhana, and

that means different things to different people. Is someone

stopping you from utilizing the KS? I hope not! If it is your "power

tool" of choice, then have at it

BTW there is a great essay called Power in its Place from the

book Is the Goddess A Feminist? The essay is by Usha Menon

and Richard A. Shweder, and whenever I get the time, I will post

some of it for Shakti Sadhana for those who are interested.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Love,

Mary Ann

, kanna krishnan

<kanna_krishnan2002> wrote:

> Namaste Maryji,

>

> I just to just share my thoughts on this ;

>

> You could compare apple to an apple as they have similar

feature But you cannot compare man to woman as both have

unique features. They are both special in their own ways

..Therefore they are of course not equal nor is one is higher than

the other .

>

> Secondly religion talks about looking beyond mere body or

physical and phsycological factors. Truly the soul has no

distinction. Sprituality talks about identfying the true nature of this

soul and its its connection to something higher.Sadhana would

make us realise to go beyond this limitation and realise out true

nature .................

>

> If you get to a good mango tree do not count the leaves of the

tree but eat the mango and see how it taste . Guruji gave us KS

and the moderator have painstakingly worked in making it more

presentable than ever .This group is about sakthi sadhana so

why dont we delve into its recitation-sadhana( that would not

degenerate anybody) and all of us can share their experience

after that .

>

> Jai Maa!!

>

> Jose Enrique Rosa <master4114> wrote:

> Mary Ann wrote: What fascinates me is that religions have

been created that

> either denigrate or elevate the female / feminine. I see both the

low and the high as showing difficulty in simply accepting all of

humanity's gifts in life- and love-affirming ways.

>

> Mary,

>

> I am sorry to say that you are up against a male dominted view

of the

> world when it comes to all sorts of topic. And it shows in this

group

> too. Good luck

>

> Sponsor

>

> Links

>

> /

>

> Terms of

Service.

>

/

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