Guest guest Report post Posted November 9, 2002 Hi Shawn, If I could take the liberty of contributing (won't affect Dan's possible answer... :-) , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > on 11/9/02 9:38 AM, dan330033 at dan330033 wrote: > > > > The way out is by not having a strategy > > for a way out (such strategy being ignorance). > > > Hi Dan, > > Is this the strategy of "no strategy?" Why should not having a strategy be considered a strategy? That seems to me to be self-defeating. Either you're interested in strategies, or you aren't. If you are, then best not to pretend things are otherwise. > How can the reflection find its way off the mirror? It doesn't. Might as well be the reflection, and stop trying to find ways to be 'something else' or 'elsewhere'. When you realize there's absolutely nothing you can do, you've done all you can do. Peace, Tim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 9, 2002 Just remembered, to re-member it takes two. - dan330033 Saturday, November 09, 2002 8:41 PM Re: The Answer , bardsley@c... wrote:> There are two things in life you should always remember; the first is, never tell all you know.> > :)Hey, that's pretty good, Grant.How about this:There are two things in life you should always remember.The first is, there is nothing you need to always remember./join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject to the Attachment: (image/jpeg) 2001_1019_165543AB.JPG [not stored] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 9, 2002 Hi Tim -- > , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > > Creation is destruction. > > > > Nothing can be created, for > > its moment of creation is its moment > > of destruction. > > For some reason, the above reminded me of something Nisargadatta > said, which is a puzzle as far as analysis is concerned: > > "Anything that begins and ends has no middle; it is hollow." Now that's an intriguing way to put it. Somehow, it reminds me of the phrase "playing music with a hollow flute" ... > > It is the dimensionless space between > > thoughts, in which perception, being, > > time is not, and neither is there > > any absence of perception, being, > > or time. (One could as well say > > aversion, attraction, and Iamness). > > Those particular words don't make sense logically: "there is neither > the presence nor the absense of something." As all discussion takes > place conceptually and ought to make sense logically, I don't get it. For the sake of our conceptual minds, an explanation arises: The space between thoughts does not have anything that thought constructs as a thing ... Nor can there be a lack of anything -- the sense of lack depends on the thought that something is missing ... Love, Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 9, 2002 Hi Shawn -- > > The way out is by not having a strategy > > for a way out (such strategy being ignorance). > > > Hi Dan, > > Is this the strategy of "no strategy?" No. That would be having a strategy. The way out is when there is no out to get to. > How can the reflection find its way off the mirror? By not never having been on a mirror. Reflective Peace, Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 9, 2002 Hi Tim -- > > If I could take the liberty of contributing (won't affect Dan's > possible answer... :-) Quite so! > , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > > on 11/9/02 9:38 AM, dan330033 at dan330033 wrote: > > > > > > > The way out is by not having a strategy > > > for a way out (such strategy being ignorance). > > > > > Hi Dan, > > > > Is this the strategy of "no strategy?" > > Why should not having a strategy be considered a strategy? That > seems to me to be self-defeating. Either you're interested in > strategies, or you aren't. If you are, then best not to pretend > things are otherwise. Indeed. > > How can the reflection find its way off the mirror? > > It doesn't. Might as well be the reflection, and stop trying to find > ways to be 'something else' or 'elsewhere'. When you realize there's > absolutely nothing you can do, you've done all you can do. Yes. There's no knowing happening in a reflection, no getting somewhere. So, the attempt to escape or to know, is surrendered. Likewise any claim to know something on which it's arising is surrendered. Knowing nothing, Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 9, 2002 Hi Dan, , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > For the sake of our conceptual minds, > an explanation arises: > > The space between thoughts does not have > anything that thought constructs as a thing ... > > Nor can there be a lack of anything -- > the sense of lack depends on the thought > that something is missing ... That makes sense (really! :-). Being enjoyed by the silence, Tim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 10, 2002 on 11/9/02 3:57 PM, dan330033 at dan330033 wrote: > So, the attempt to escape or to know, is surrendered. > > Likewise any claim to know something on which > it's arising is surrendered. > > Knowing nothing, > Dan Yes, keeping "don't know" mind, but not as strategy (Srgt. Schultz's mantra), as momentary (moment to moment) understanding/seeing. "The way out is by not having a strategy."...points to a way out being desired or thought to exist and hense the stategy becomes "no stategy". The one who would surender an attempt to escape or know, is the dreamed. Shawn Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 10, 2002 Hi Dan, , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > Hi Tim -- > > > , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > > > Creation is destruction. > > > > > > Nothing can be created, for > > > its moment of creation is its moment > > > of destruction. > > > > For some reason, the above reminded me of something Nisargadatta > > said, which is a puzzle as far as analysis is concerned: > > > > "Anything that begins and ends has no middle; it is hollow." > > Now that's an intriguing way to put it. > > Somehow, it reminds me of the phrase > "playing music with a hollow flute" ... It is an unusual way to put it... of course it's paraphrased a bit above (from memory), and was translated from Marathi (not to mention a tape-recording) to English in the 'original' writing... The original words are gone, heck with 'em. Play the hollow flute, sounds much more inviting ;-). Rising & falling as music, Tim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 10, 2002 Hi Shawn, , shawn <shawn@w...> wrote: > "The way out is by not having a strategy."...points to a way out > being desired or thought to exist and hense the stategy becomes "no > stategy". > > The one who would surender an attempt to escape or know, is the > dreamed. Even so, a dream-issue may call for a dream-surrender. Put another way -- if an inclination to surrender arises, it certainly isn't worth an attempt to resist :-). Peace, Tim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 10, 2002 Hi Shawn, > Yes, keeping "don't know" mind, but not as strategy (Srgt. Schultz's > mantra), as momentary (moment to moment) understanding/seeing. Not a strategy, so not something to be kept. Not a type of mind -- just *what is* not of thought, prior to any thought -- not interfered with by a thought, but not any strategy or continuing conceptualization of thought. > "The way out is by not having a strategy."...points to a way out being > desired or thought to exist and hense the stategy becomes "no stategy". A way out is desired as long as there is imagined to have been born a being who came in, and could get out -- The way out is that no one came in to go out -- What goes out, in the sense of extinguishment, is the energy and intent invested in continuation of any conceptualization of someone who could want out or in, or something from which to get out or in ... > The one who would surender an attempt to escape or know, is the dreamed. To say that one is a dream character for the sake of other dream characters who also have no ability to know or do? Indeed, there is nothing to make it a dream or not a dream, except its attempted characterization by a commentator. Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 10, 2002 on 11/10/02 10:17 AM, dan330033 at dan330033 wrote: > The way out is that no one came in to go out -- Bwahahah...that's *no* way out! That's undermining the whole dilemma! > What goes out, in the sense of extinguishment, > is the energy and intent invested in > continuation of any conceptualization > of someone who could want out or in, or something > from which to get out or in ... ....and so the Self puts no more serious interest in getting the phantom out of the dream? Seems like a subtle shift in the ground of perception, or is merely the recognition of a mistaken identity? >> The one who would surender an attempt to escape or know, is the > dreamed. > > To say that one is a dream character for the sake > of other dream characters who also have no ability > to know or do? Indeed, there is > nothing to make it a dream or not a dream, except its > attempted characterization by a commentator. > > Dan Is that a fancy way of saying it's all in my mind? :^) ...what of this donut? Shawn Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 10, 2002 It's actually farther back than the mind. Think about it as being all in the mind, then take a step back from that. Keep stepping back until there's nothing that it seems to be. But like you say, one way to talk about it is a shift in perception, but it's not really that! That is just a way of speaking that's sometimes "good enough for government work" and sometimes not! --Greg At 03:21 PM 11/10/02 -1000, shawn wrote: >...and so the Self puts no more serious interest in getting the phantom out >of the dream? Seems like a subtle shift in the ground of perception, or is >merely the recognition of a mistaken identity? > > >>> The one who would surender an attempt to escape or know, is the >> dreamed. >> >> To say that one is a dream character for the sake >> of other dream characters who also have no ability >> to know or do? Indeed, there is >> nothing to make it a dream or not a dream, except its >> attempted characterization by a commentator. >> >> Dan > >Is that a fancy way of saying it's all in my mind? :^) >..what of this donut? > >Shawn > > > >/join > > > > > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > >Your use of is subject to Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 10, 2002 Hey greg! I love that government remark, and am thankful I don't work for them all the time! (just the tax part) Can someone be one-linered to nirvana? I would assume so... given that guy and the flower story. Shawn on 11/10/02 3:41 PM, Gregory Goode at goode wrote: > It's actually farther back than the mind. Think about it as being all in the > mind, then take a step back from that. Keep stepping back until there's > nothing that it seems to be. But like you say, one way to talk about it is a > shift in perception, but it's not really that! That is just a way of speaking > that's sometimes "good enough for government work" and sometimes not! > > --Greg > > At 03:21 PM 11/10/02 -1000, shawn wrote: > >> ...and so the Self puts no more serious interest in getting the phantom out >> of the dream? Seems like a subtle shift in the ground of perception, or is >> merely the recognition of a mistaken identity? >> >> >>>> The one who would surender an attempt to escape or know, is the >>> dreamed. >>> >>> To say that one is a dream character for the sake >>> of other dream characters who also have no ability >>> to know or do? Indeed, there is >>> nothing to make it a dream or not a dream, except its >>> attempted characterization by a commentator. >>> >>> Dan >> >> Is that a fancy way of saying it's all in my mind? :^) >> ..what of this donut? >> >> Shawn >> >> >> >> /join >> >> >> >> >> >> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >> perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside >> back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than >> the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. >> Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is >> where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal >> Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously >> arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. >> >> >> >> Your use of is subject to > > > /join > > > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the > ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is > where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. > A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising > from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > > Terms of Service > <> . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 10, 2002 Hi Shawn, Yeah, that flower thing was even less than a one-liner! I used to be in the Army - 9 years counting National Guard. --Greg At 03:49 PM 11/10/02 -1000, shawn wrote: >Hey greg! > >I love that government remark, and am thankful I don't work for them all the >time! (just the tax part) >Can someone be one-linered to nirvana? >I would assume so... given that guy and the flower story. > >Shawn > > >on 11/10/02 3:41 PM, Gregory Goode at goode wrote: > >> It's actually farther back than the mind. Think about it as being all in the >> mind, then take a step back from that. Keep stepping back until there's >> nothing that it seems to be. But like you say, one way to talk about it is a >> shift in perception, but it's not really that! That is just a way of speaking >> that's sometimes "good enough for government work" and sometimes not! >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 11, 2002 on 11/10/02 3:55 PM, Gregory Goode at goode wrote: > Hi Shawn, > > Yeah, that flower thing was even less than a one-liner! > > I used to be in the Army - 9 years counting National Guard. > > --Greg I know it's not till tomorrow...but let me be the first to thank you this year. Thanks greg, glad your still here. ....and as soon as I find my mind, I'll be sure to step back from it and check stuff out. Have a good day tomorrow. Shawn Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 11, 2002 Hi Shawn, > > The way out is that no one came in to go out -- > > > Bwahahah...that's *no* way out! That's undermining the whole dilemma! No way out of what? Where's the dilemma? > > What goes out, in the sense of extinguishment, > > is the energy and intent invested in > > continuation of any conceptualization > > of someone who could want out or in, or something > > from which to get out or in ... > > ...and so the Self puts no more serious interest in getting the phantom out > of the dream? You could say that -- except that the idea that there's a Self that could have interest is as much a dream as any phantom would be -- In fact, it takes a phantom even to be talking about dreams and reality, selves and Self. > Seems like a subtle shift in the ground of perception, or is > merely the recognition of a mistaken identity? Well -- it's impossible to miss, let's put it that way. What never is not the case, is only seemingly missed because the mind resorts to making comparisons ... > >> The one who would surender an attempt to escape or know, is the > > dreamed. > > > > To say that one is a dream character for the sake > > of other dream characters who also have no ability > > to know or do? Indeed, there is > > nothing to make it a dream or not a dream, except its > > attempted characterization by a commentator. > > > > Dan > > Is that a fancy way of saying it's all in my mind? :^) Not all. If this is in your mind, what is producing your mind? > ..what of this donut? Yes -- I'll have one of those, with a glass of egg nog! -- Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 12, 2002 , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > > > > What gives me the greatest feeling of love in the conceptual world > is > > the notion that there is way out of ignorance built within the > > structure itself. > > The way out is by not having a strategy > for a way out (such strategy being ignorance). > > The structure dissolves, and that is the way out, > by not having a way out (for "youI" am that > dissolving structure) ... Hi Dan: As a child I was intrigued with the notion that something could be accurate. Math and algebra was amazing to me. Then there was the idea that evolution followed a pattern of progressive sophistication. The direction of intelligence amplification was interesting to me. Why? What is there about the world that made it possible to grow? How does the mechanism of the mind take data and form conclusions that bear fruit? This is what I mean by a way out. There is a story about the soul that never incarnated. It was called Ishvara. When something is needed to be known Ishvara gives the answer. That works for me. Love Bobby G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 12, 2002 > Hi Dan: As a child I was intrigued with the notion that something > could be accurate. Math and algebra was amazing to me. Then there > was the idea that evolution followed a pattern of progressive > sophistication. The direction of intelligence amplification was > interesting to me. Why? What is there about the world that made it > possible to grow? > > How does the mechanism of the mind take data and form conclusions > that bear fruit? This is what I mean by a way out. > > There is a story about the soul that never incarnated. It was called > Ishvara. When something is needed to be known Ishvara gives the > answer. That works for me. > > Love > Bobby G. Hi Bobby -- Thanks for explaining, although I'm not totally clear on the explanation yet. Are you saying that a way out is to take data and form conclusions that bear fruit? I'm not sure you're saying that, but if you are, I'm curious to know what conclusion has formed, that was the way out ... I think it's more likely that you're saying that the way out is knowing that any time you need for a conclusion to form, it will be given ... So, looking at it that way, I think you're saying that the way out, is something like "ask and you shall receive" ... I'm sure I was going in a way different direction with this idea of a way out. I took a way out to mean a way out of the tension of life/death. Not that I've come to any conclusions about that, mind you :-) Thanks for clarifying, Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 13, 2002 , "dan330033" <dan330033> wrote: > > Hi Dan: As a child I was intrigued with the notion that something > > could be accurate. Math and algebra was amazing to me. Then there > > was the idea that evolution followed a pattern of progressive > > sophistication. The direction of intelligence amplification was > > interesting to me. Why? What is there about the world that made > it > > possible to grow? > > > > How does the mechanism of the mind take data and form conclusions > > that bear fruit? This is what I mean by a way out. > > > > There is a story about the soul that never incarnated. It was > called > > Ishvara. When something is needed to be known Ishvara gives the > > answer. That works for me. > > > > Love > > Bobby G. > > Hi Bobby -- > > Thanks for explaining, although I'm not totally clear on > the explanation yet. > > Are you saying that a way out is to take data and form conclusions > that bear fruit? > > I'm not sure you're saying that, but if you are, > I'm curious to know what conclusion has > formed, that was the way out ... > > I think it's more likely that you're saying that the way out is > knowing that any time you need for a conclusion to form, > it will be given ... > > So, looking at it that way, I think you're saying that the way out, > is something like "ask and you shall receive" ... > > I'm sure I was going in a way different direction with this > idea of a way out. > > I took a way out to mean a way out of the tension of life/death. > Not that I've come to any conclusions about that, mind you :-) > > Thanks for clarifying, > Dan Hi Dan I can see where I was unclear. The sentence 'That is what I meant by a way out.', should have been a paragraph by itself to separate it from the entire first passage. I'm sorry for the mistake. You figured out what I meant anyway. On the individual level the love of God will assemble the mechanism eventually for liberation. In the mind, that will be the reduction of blockages which results in a purer mechanism. The resulting discernment points out the mistaken identity. On the macrocosmic level, matter eventually forms into reproducible patterns that develop minds suitable for liberation. Evolution is the way out. It would be a merciless universe that kept ignorance eternal. Love Bobby G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
