Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2001 Ya know, in March, 2000 I was writing to Harsha privately, and I explained to him that I rarely post to his list because I felt like my perverse sense of humor and unique perspectives are unwelcome here. I prefer not to go where I am not appreciated. Harsha responded to reassure me that I was welcome... so I began to participate.. occasionally.. cautiously. He said to me: >You are welcome to say or post anything on the list that you >please. No restrictions. Silly me, I took him at his word... I guess he wrote that, before you became co-moderator. I guess it never occurred to you, that you have just made comments that show disrespect to *my* religion... BDSM Shamanism.. over some humor that was more innocuous than the average Calvin Klein ad or music video. Recently on TV there have been adverts for a movie called "Tom cats" that has more BDSM in it than I'd thought I'd see on TV. The trailer for the film has bondage, Dominatrixes and clearly implied torture.. it is rated "all audiences." Look for yourself. http://www.mediatrip.com/tomcats/sneak/index.html I have been expressing myself on the internet and in other media for long enough, I know where the line is, between what is censorable, according to normal social standards.. and I did not cross it. Poor Gloria.. your mind is in a bondage far more restrictive than anything I would do to someone. What is it, that you are afraid of, really? That the Harsha list will get rejected by , next? Hmm.. that would be ironic, but I don't think that is likely. So, what is it? You project your fear onto me, and try to control what I do.. that may be easier than dealing with your fear, but do you really think that will work? I have looked at the list guidelines, and I see nothing in it, that would move you to want to silence me, as you are doing. Quite the opposite. It says: >How beautiful the variety of expressions in so many different traditions! >We embrace this variety with great joy and in fellowship in a. You do not seem to be embracing the variety I manifest, with joy, or seeing beauty in it. It is there.. Why are you are not seeing it? Where is the fellowship? >No religion or teacher or tradition has a monopoly on the Essential Truth >of Reality which is Our Own Nature. In this context, a >focuses on the aspirations and experiences of individuals on the spiritual >path. I expressed my experience, as an individual. > Everyone interested in any of the Shiva and Shakti traditions, and the > related yogic and tantric paths That would be me.. >as well as those practicing primarily the cognitive methods of the pure >nondual teachings of great Jnanis such as Ramana Maharshi are welcome to >join. The discussions are typically expected to focus on Self-Realization, >Kundalini Shakti and Its Manifestations, Yup. >God-Realization, the Goddess, Enlightenment, and various types of Samadhis >(Savikalpa and Nirvikalpa). Discussion of various teachers and teachings >can also be enriching as long as there is mutual respect and a feeling of >amity in the conversation. Yup. I was respectful.. I am being respectful.. I am not feeling respected. > Humor and poetry and other artistic expressions of the spiritual life > are encouraged and supported. Humor.. yup... but I am not feeling supported.. Lobster is right.. it is time for me to go back to activism. This is one of many signs that are coming up, lately. If, your reminder about disrespectful comment about a religion, refers to my saying Allah is female, then you have really misread me. Realizing that, was the only way I could find respect for a religion that treats women worse than cattle. Do you know what happens to women in Muslim countries, these days? Do you know what is occurring in Afghanistan? Open your eyes. http://www.llamarose.com/women.html http://www.rawa.org/women4.htm http://www.phrusa.org/campaigns/afghanistan/index.html http://www.rawa.org/haircut.htm http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm No, I don't have any questions.. only sadness. blessings.. At 11:56 AM 4/22/01, you wrote: >Am CC'ing to you in case you don't read the list digest that often... >this was just posted. > > >Dear Angelique > >One of the reasons for creating different lists is to allow places >for different preferences. If anyone would read what the list focus >is from the description, they would certainly not expect to read a >message on a topic like bondage. This list is open to all ages, and >is not restricted to adults. We are not even R-rated, let alone X! >Comments that may be seen as disrespectful of any religion are not >in harmony with the list atmosphere, either. The moderators think it >should be already clear that this would not be considered an >appropriate message here. But if you have any questions, you are >welcome to ask for clarification about those guidelines. > >Gloria Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2001 About where to go as far as are concerned? It is actually very simple. In Victoria we have a street where there is a whole variety of places and stores to go: An Indian Arts store A small Sally Anne type of place Porn and Bondage Tools store An Outdoors Store A small Furniture store Oriental Artefacts Hair Stylist A Bakery Coffee Shop Sally Anne Dutch Pancakes place Metaphysical books and things store Chinese Restaurant Alternative Hemp Clothing Scientology Anglican Church A Clinique A Posh Artsy place Nightlife Pub Martial Arts centre Comics book store Women Issues book store A Parsonage with a little Chapel Well there is no end to it, it is a long street and there are two sides to it... One can walk into any of those places, one is totally free in that, one can say and do anything one wants in those places... nothing prevents you from that... but....you will get flack when 'whatever you do or say', 'somehow' does not fit. There is a place for everything but one will not find everything in one place. If you want to be militant, you can of course do your militant thing in any of those places, but the way society is structured you will soon find yourself in another place..., there is a rather large police station higher up on the same street.... When you later leave that place you hopefully found out that there is a different way of meaning and doing business and you will hopefully set up a Militancy Centre, maybe right next to the Green Peace kind of place that you also find on that street. In that street you will find partygoers and vinos, well-to-do professionals spending their money and streetkids pleased to accept it, johns and daddies with strollers, prostitutes and mothers with strollers (sometimes one and the same), Franciscan monks and youthful Scientologists, volunteers and individuals having to do community service, Hindus, Buddhists, Islamics, Christians and people with no persuasions, pacifists and activists, potentially you and me. The street is for everyone... Oh, and then there is this crazy fellow who does and says anything he wants... but he is somehow respected, him having respect in his humorous disrespect. Some will find themselves comfortable in many stores, some just walk through that street, window shopping and people watching. Some engage, some disengage. So, there you go... Love, Wim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2001 Mystress Angelique Serpent wrote: > >Ya know, in March, 2000 I was writing to Harsha privately, and I explained to him that I rarely post to his list because I felt like my perverse sense of humor and unique perspectives are unwelcome here. I prefer not to go where I am not appreciated. Harsha responded to reassure me that I was welcome... so I began to participate.. occasionally.. cautiously. He said to me: You are welcome to say or post anything on the list that you please. No restrictions. Silly me, I took him at his word... I guess he wrote that, before you became co-moderator. Snip - Dear list, Do we have to test to see which way the wind blows every time we post here? Do we have to come from a 'politically correct' viewpoint or religion before we can be accepted here? Or have we become more like the scribes and pharisees that Jesus so roundly denounced? The list guidelines purport to respect all paths. Let that be so. This universe is vast beyond our intellectual powers to comprehend. Each one of us is dropped into this realm to play in the neverending story of life. I have found Mystress Angelique Serpent to be a gentle, playful, openhearted, and enlightened being. That her path is so different from mine makes no difference to me. Her courage to be honest with herself and her willingness to be open to what the universe has to offer has inspired many to find honesty and courage in thier own quest for awakening. There truly is a peace that passes all understanding. We may and do have to traverse and endure many things to find that peace. Do not ask another to endure what you have endured. Rather, be open to the understanding that the universal peace and love is available to all. Love eternal - Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2001 Namaste All, The problem with bondage, depravity, distorted tantra, sexual gymnastics, etc is they are a diversion. It is not that I am judging what is right or wrong. What is an impediment to liberation is the forming of new and powerful samskaras or tendencies. These odd behaviours do not help, in fact they continue to reinforce the senses, which in essence are the cause of our bondage. It is the senses that keep us on planet earth, there is no moksha until they are risen above. Most of the practitioners of these odd behaviours do not follow a path of advaita or non dual knowledge, in its truest sense. They are attached to experiences and see them as being the 'be all', when the 'be all', is beyond all experiences. The preamble to this list covers the teachings of Ramana Maharshi, who taught 'Who am I?', not what am I and what can I experience? There are other lists that accomodate all these sensual diversions. However I am prepared to debate any point on them here. Om Namah Sivaya......Tony. , "Michael Read" <maread@i...> wrote: > Mystress Angelique Serpent wrote: > > > >Ya know, in March, 2000 I was writing to Harsha privately, and > I explained to him that I rarely post to his list because I felt like > my perverse sense of humor and unique perspectives are unwelcome here. > I prefer not to go where I am not appreciated. > > Harsha responded to reassure me that I was welcome... so I > began to participate.. occasionally.. cautiously. He said to me: > > You are welcome to say or post anything on the list that you > please. > > No restrictions. Silly me, I took him at his word... I guess > he wrote that, before you became co-moderator. > > Snip - > > Dear list, > > Do we have to test to see which way the wind blows every time we post > here? Do we have to come from a 'politically correct' viewpoint or > religion before we can be accepted here? Or have we become more like > the scribes and pharisees that Jesus so roundly denounced? > > The list guidelines purport to respect all paths. Let that be so. This > universe is vast beyond our intellectual powers to comprehend. Each > one of us is dropped into this realm to play in the neverending story > of life. > > I have found Mystress Angelique Serpent to be a gentle, playful, > openhearted, and enlightened being. That her path is so different from > mine makes no difference to me. Her courage to be honest with herself > and her willingness to be open to what the universe has to offer has > inspired many to find honesty and courage in thier own quest for > awakening. > > There truly is a peace that passes all understanding. We may and do > have to traverse and endure many things to find that peace. Do not ask > another to endure what you have endured. Rather, be open to the > understanding that the universal peace and love is available to all. > > Love eternal - Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2001 Dear Angelique, I'm sorry you have taken this so personally, a I personally have nothing against your right or freedom to be whoever you may want to be. From what I have known of you from previously being on your list, your kindness was quite evident. However you yourself have rules pertinent to how you wish your list to be run. That there are some list restrictions may indeed be seen as censorship, however this list is not intended for discussion of erotic or sexual techniques and practices. Very likely almost everyone on the list has a private sex life, we just don't come here to discuss that in particular. Persons of all persuasions and religions are welcome, and the fact that someone may be of any particular sexual persuasion is not an issue. Wicca and Shamanism are far broader in scope than just BDSM. This is just one little email list, and you are most welcome. Suggestions were already made to form another list where such topics are welcome. Believing that God is female as in Allah, or whatever name you may prefer is also your right and certainly no problem with that being expressed here. The difficulties of Muslim women and the question of how some practices may be considered abusive, is certainly in line with issues of ahimsa. It has been previously mentioned at length on the list. Jesus on the cross is unquestionably a sacred symbol to millions of Christians, and is at the heart of the religion. While anyone is free to think whatever they like about Jesus, it would be considered disrespectful of that image to discuss here using it as an erotic technique. Most Christians would find that offensive. The list guidelines restrict any speech disrespectful of a relgion. Granted there are few on the list, however it is a judgement call I was willing to make, and I will stand by it. If either Harsha or the list members in general disagree with my attempts to moderate the list, I am happy to resign. If the list wishes to debate the merits of my judgement here and as a group wants the list to have other standards, its fine by me. Any further clarification or debate is welcome too. Angelique, you have not been moderated or asked to leave or banned. A simple request was made that the list was not a place for discussions of BDSM in general, but most specifically, it was the use of the cross that I reacted to. With love, Gloria Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2001 , "Gloria Lee" <glee@i...> wrote: Hi folks, What is freedom? Does freedom mean that 'I' can do or say what I like? Yes. And it also means that 'you' can do or say what you like! So, what happens when 'I' say or do something that imposes on your freedom, or 'you' say or do something that imposes on my freedom?... --------------- Obviously the only mature answer is 'Mutual Respect' (and a deeper understanding of freedom). Without mutual respect we create the need for guidelines and moderators (which means we have lost freedom). Love, james Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2001 > What is freedom? > > Does freedom mean that 'I' can do or say what I like? > > > Yes. That's a debatable definition of "freedom"! > > And it also means that 'you' can do or say what you like! > > > So, what happens when 'I' say or do something that imposes on your > freedom, or 'you' say or do something that imposes on my freedom?... No one imposes on "my" freedom. Freedom remains quite uneffected by anything posted -but I choose to be mindful and respect the guidelines of this list which are pretty broad. Ancient teachings demonstrate that "freedom" is discovered within the "limitations" of certain guidelines and discipline. It does seem to be a matter of choice and good manners at least. So three cheers, Gloria and many thanks for pure motivation! Joyce > > > --------------- > > > Obviously the only mature answer is 'Mutual Respect' (and a > deeper understanding of freedom). > > Without mutual respect we create the need for guidelines and > moderators (which means we have lost freedom). > > > Love, > james > /join > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from > the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2001 , "Joyce Short" <insight@s...> wrote: Hi Joyce, You're quite right- It is a debatable definition of 'freedom' and that is the point. People say they want 'freedom' but do they really know what it means? Love, james > > > > What is freedom? > > > > Does freedom mean that 'I' can do or say what I like? > > > > > > Yes. > > That's a debatable definition of "freedom"! > > > > > > And it also means that 'you' can do or say what you like! > > > > > > So, what happens when 'I' say or do something that imposes on your > > freedom, or 'you' say or do something that imposes on my freedom?... > > No one imposes on "my" freedom. Freedom remains quite uneffected by > anything posted -but I choose to be mindful and respect the guidelines of > this list which are pretty broad. Ancient teachings demonstrate that > "freedom" is discovered within the "limitations" of certain guidelines and > discipline. It does seem to be a matter of choice and good manners at least. > So three cheers, Gloria and many thanks for pure motivation! > > Joyce > > > > > > --------------- > > > > > > Obviously the only mature answer is 'Mutual Respect' (and a > > deeper understanding of freedom). > > > > Without mutual respect we create the need for guidelines and > > moderators (which means we have lost freedom). > > > > > > Love, > > james > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /join > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is > > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality > > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to > a. > > > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > > www., and select the User Center link from > > the menu bar > > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > > subscription > > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2001 Namaste All, Gloria is right otherwise we could have all kind of porn and perversions on here with photos as well. Read the guidelines this is supposed to be blessed by Ramana. Find quotes where he approves of bondage etc then put it on here........ , Mystress Angelique Serpent <Mystress@k...> wrote: > > Ya know, in March, 2000 I was writing to Harsha privately, and I > explained to him that I rarely post to his list because I felt like my > perverse sense of humor and unique perspectives are unwelcome here. I > prefer not to go where I am not appreciated. > > Harsha responded to reassure me that I was welcome... so I began to > participate.. occasionally.. cautiously. He said to me: > > >You are welcome to say or post anything on the list that you > >please. > > No restrictions. Silly me, I took him at his word... I guess he wrote > that, before you became co-moderator. > > I guess it never occurred to you, that you have just made comments that > show disrespect to *my* religion... BDSM Shamanism.. over some humor that > was more innocuous than the average Calvin Klein ad or music video. > Recently on TV there have been adverts for a movie called "Tom cats" that > has more BDSM in it than I'd thought I'd see on TV. The trailer for the > film has bondage, Dominatrixes and clearly implied torture.. it is rated > "all audiences." Look for yourself. > http://www.mediatrip.com/tomcats/sneak/index.html > > I have been expressing myself on the internet and in other media for > long enough, I know where the line is, between what is censorable, > according to normal social standards.. and I did not cross it. > > Poor Gloria.. your mind is in a bondage far more restrictive than > anything I would do to someone. What is it, that you are afraid of, really? > That the Harsha list will get rejected by , next? Hmm.. that > would be ironic, but I don't think that is likely. So, what is it? You > project your fear onto me, and try to control what I do.. that may be > easier than dealing with your fear, but do you really think that will work? > > I have looked at the list guidelines, and I see nothing in it, that > would move you to want to silence me, as you are doing. Quite the opposite. > It says: > > >How beautiful the variety of expressions in so many different traditions! > >We embrace this variety with great joy and in fellowship in a. > > You do not seem to be embracing the variety I manifest, with joy, or > seeing beauty in it. It is there.. Why are you are not seeing it? Where is > the fellowship? > > >No religion or teacher or tradition has a monopoly on the Essential Truth > >of Reality which is Our Own Nature. In this context, a > >focuses on the aspirations and experiences of individuals on the spiritual > >path. > > I expressed my experience, as an individual. > > > Everyone interested in any of the Shiva and Shakti traditions, and the > > related yogic and tantric paths > > That would be me.. > > >as well as those practicing primarily the cognitive methods of the pure > >nondual teachings of great Jnanis such as Ramana Maharshi are welcome to > >join. The discussions are typically expected to focus on Self-Realization, > >Kundalini Shakti and Its Manifestations, > > Yup. > > >God-Realization, the Goddess, Enlightenment, and various types of Samadhis > >(Savikalpa and Nirvikalpa). Discussion of various teachers and teachings > >can also be enriching as long as there is mutual respect and a feeling of > >amity in the conversation. > > Yup. I was respectful.. I am being respectful.. I am not feeling > respected. > > > Humor and poetry and other artistic expressions of the spiritual life > > are encouraged and supported. > > Humor.. yup... but I am not feeling supported.. > > Lobster is right.. it is time for me to go back to activism. This is > one of many signs that are coming up, lately. > > If, your reminder about disrespectful comment about a religion, refers > to my saying Allah is female, then you have really misread me. Realizing > that, was the only way I could find respect for a religion that treats > women worse than cattle. Do you know what happens to women in Muslim > countries, these days? Do you know what is occurring in Afghanistan? Open > your eyes. > > http://www.llamarose.com/women.html > http://www.rawa.org/women4.htm > http://www.phrusa.org/campaigns/afghanistan/index.html > http://www.rawa.org/haircut.htm > http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm > > No, I don't have any questions.. only sadness. > blessings.. > > At 11:56 AM 4/22/01, you wrote: > >Am CC'ing to you in case you don't read the list digest that often... > >this was just posted. > > > > > >Dear Angelique > > > >One of the reasons for creating different lists is to allow places > >for different preferences. If anyone would read what the list focus > >is from the description, they would certainly not expect to read a > >message on a topic like bondage. This list is open to all ages, and > >is not restricted to adults. We are not even R-rated, let alone X! > >Comments that may be seen as disrespectful of any religion are not > >in harmony with the list atmosphere, either. The moderators think it > >should be already clear that this would not be considered an > >appropriate message here. But if you have any questions, you are > >welcome to ask for clarification about those guidelines. > > > >Gloria Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2001 On 4/23/01 at 7:30 PM nisarga wrote: º, "Joyce Short" <insight@s...> wrote: º º Hi Joyce, º º You're quite right- It is a debatable definition of 'freedom' ºand that is the point. º º People say they want 'freedom' but do they really know what it ºmeans? º º Love, º james That's a good one James - not only don't they know, they would be shocked to know. Because it would mean experiencing all one's "holy cows" go up in smoke at once, as those are but "mind constructs". What are those "holy cows" but blocks that sooner or later have to be faced... This isn't meant disrespectful, just a reminder that "world is mind". Love, Jan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2001 Hi Gloria: Doing my usual "trying to catch up" but wanted to say I believe that you handled this situation with detachment and within the guidelines of moderation . By the way, while no where near $1,600 I too am involved with trying to figure out why a gas station keeps putting in $17.00 charges against my account for gas purchased back in January. Love, Linda >If either Harsha or the list members in general disagree with my attempts to >moderate the list, I am happy to resign. If the list wishes to debate the merits of >my judgement here and as a group wants the list to have other standards, its fine >by me. Any further clarification or debate is welcome too. >With love, >Gloria /joinAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription between digest and normal mode.Your use of is subject to the Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2001 Hi James, You write that freedom is doing/saying what one likes. I doubt it. Everybody does that already. Are they all free ? JB , nisarga@c... wrote: > , "Gloria Lee" <glee@i...> wrote: > > > Hi folks, > > What is freedom? > > Does freedom mean that 'I' can do or say what I like? > > > Yes. > > And it also means that 'you' can do or say what you like! > > > So, what happens when 'I' say or do something that imposes on your > freedom, or 'you' say or do something that imposes on my freedom?... > > > --------------- > > > Obviously the only mature answer is 'Mutual Respect' (and a > deeper understanding of freedom). > > Without mutual respect we create the need for guidelines and > moderators (which means we have lost freedom). > > > Love, > james Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2001 I'm going to flog the dead horse a little more. Something has been nagging at me about this thread and I finally figured it out. It is my memory that the original objection to posted material by Angelique came from a woman (?) who was objecting on the grounds that HER CHILDREN might read the offending posts. Perhaps the woman objected herself and was hiding behind her children, but the post to me felt like a little righteous slap to which all respondents (except Angelique and one other -- forgive me, I've forgotten who) capitulated. We're all more or less grown-up. If posts offend we can complain and duke it out directly, leave, listen and/or compromise. If we don't want our children to read stuff, that is our responsiblity as parents to handle. Unlike other guideline snaggles we've untangled comfortably, this one had a real stink of censorship. Holly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2001 Hello Gloria and everyone else who wish to read this , "Gloria Lee" <glee@i...> wrote: > If either Harsha or the list members in general disagree with my >attempts to moderate the list, I am happy to resign. If the list >wishes to debate the merits of my judgement here and as a group >wants the list to have other standards, its fine by me. Any further >clarification or debate is welcome too. Attempts anywhere on the net of moderation of speech, even from moderators who are set to do this job, eve if the moderation has a clear purpose, are /always/ met with resistance. I have seen that as moderator of two lists. It's never easy to "have to" bend to another person's will, wherever it may be coming from, for whatever reason it may be said, it is usually a bone of contention. As children we are taught to obey our parents and when we rebel against this in our teens, we believe we become free to form our own personality. This rebel usually continues into adulthood. Restrictions of this perceived freedom, however mild, is never liked. As the song says "Everyone wants to rule the world". What is often forgotten is the mutual contract of society. When coming into a group or society, there is usually a variety of opinions, assumptions, likes and dislikes and what's one woman's dream is another woman's nightmare. In every society contract, made for us to be able to speak with one another without turning every little disagreement to an argument, we need to be aware of each others' limitations and dislikes and respect them. I have always believed that the respect must go to those who are the most "sensitive". If someone dislikes something, giving them some leeway is ok, not easy, but something that must often be done. It is no point in going to a sermon of born again Christians and preach atheism, you know what you're gonna get if you do that and the chances for anyone listening are pretty small. > Jesus on the cross is unquestionably a sacred symbol to millions of >Christians, and is at the heart of the religion. While anyone is >free to think whatever they like about Jesus, it would be considered >disrespectful of that image to discuss here using it as an erotic >technique. Most Christians would find that offensive. The list >guidelines restrict any speech disrespectful of a relgion. Granted >there are few on the list, however it is a judgement call I was >willing to make, and I will stand by it. Yeah, most Christians would feel that was offensive since their religion and practice takes little account of the body and its songs. A friend of mine was most delighted and happy when discovering the possibility (reflection) of the passion play having a shade of masochism, in fact he came running to me to share it. But it's not a suggestion most ppl would take without being offended or resort to ridicule. Religious and spiritual values hit close to home and it's difficult not being offended by what other ppl say in that respect. I support you in your views of the guidelines and hope we can continue to show respect to everyone's sensibilities and "sensitivities". Love, Amanda. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2001 Hi James, I don't know if "people" know what it means - I've come across a few who do. It seems at times that a person will have the notion of freedom which is really just licentiousness and selfishness -speaking only for myself, of course. Love Joyce > > You're quite right- It is a debatable definition of 'freedom' > and that is the point. > > People say they want 'freedom' but do they really know what it > means? > > Love, > james > > > > > > > >> >> >> > What is freedom? >> > >> > Does freedom mean that 'I' can do or say what I like? >> > >> > >> > Yes. >> >> That's a debatable definition of "freedom"! >> >> >> > >> > And it also means that 'you' can do or say what you like! >> > >> > >> > So, what happens when 'I' say or do something that imposes on > your >> > freedom, or 'you' say or do something that imposes on my > freedom?... >> >> No one imposes on "my" freedom. Freedom remains quite uneffected by >> anything posted -but I choose to be mindful and respect the > guidelines of >> this list which are pretty broad. Ancient teachings demonstrate > that >> "freedom" is discovered within the "limitations" of certain > guidelines and >> discipline. It does seem to be a matter of choice and good manners > at least. >> So three cheers, Gloria and many thanks for pure motivation! >> >> Joyce >> > >> > >> > --------------- >> > >> > >> > Obviously the only mature answer is 'Mutual Respect' (and a >> > deeper understanding of freedom). >> > >> > Without mutual respect we create the need for guidelines and >> > moderators (which means we have lost freedom). >> > >> > >> > Love, >> > james >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > /join >> > >> > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, > sights, >> > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in > and subside >> > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than >> > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of >> > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. > It is >> > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the > Finality >> > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of > Self-Knowledge, >> > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to >> a. >> > >> > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at >> > www., and select the User Center > link from >> > the menu bar >> > on the left. This menu will also let you change > your >> > subscription >> > between digest and normal mode. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Your use of is subject to > >> > >> > > > > > /join > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from > the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2001 The search for liberation is itself bondage. It is we who put ourselves in bondage by making a polarity of liberation and bondage. Guidelines on a list are simply guidelines on a list. Whatever the list members, moderators, head of the list decide. It's up to them. Where did Ramana say anything at all about what should or shouldn't be allowed to be posted on e-mail lists? ;-) Namaste, Dan Namaste All, Gloria is right otherwise we could have all kind of porn and perversions on here with photos as well. Read the guidelines this is supposed to be blessed by Ramana. Find quotes where he approves of bondage etc then put it on here........, Mystress Angelique Serpent <Mystress@k...> wrote: > > Ya know, in March, 2000 I was writing to Harsha privately, and I > explained to him that I rarely post to his list because I felt like my > perverse sense of humor and unique perspectives are unwelcome here. I > prefer not to go where I am not appreciated. > > Harsha responded to reassure me that I was welcome... so I began to > participate.. occasionally.. cautiously. He said to me: > > >You are welcome to say or post anything on the list that you > >please. > > No restrictions. Silly me, I took him at his word... I guess he wrote > that, before you became co-moderator. > > I guess it never occurred to you, that you have just made comments that > show disrespect to *my* religion... BDSM Shamanism.. over some humor that > was more innocuous than the average Calvin Klein ad or music video. > Recently on TV there have been adverts for a movie called "Tom cats" that > has more BDSM in it than I'd thought I'd see on TV. The trailer for the > film has bondage, Dominatrixes and clearly implied torture.. it is rated > "all audiences." Look for yourself. > http://www.mediatrip.com/tomcats/sneak/index.html > > I have been expressing myself on the internet and in other media for > long enough, I know where the line is, between what is censorable, > according to normal social standards.. and I did not cross it. > > Poor Gloria.. your mind is in a bondage far more restrictive than > anything I would do to someone. What is it, that you are afraid of, really? > That the Harsha list will get rejected by , next? Hmm.. that > would be ironic, but I don't think that is likely. So, what is it? You > project your fear onto me, and try to control what I do.. that may be > easier than dealing with your fear, but do you really think that will work? > > I have looked at the list guidelines, and I see nothing in it, that > would move you to want to silence me, as you are doing. Quite the opposite. > It says: > > >How beautiful the variety of expressions in so many different traditions! > >We embrace this variety with great joy and in fellowship in a. > > You do not seem to be embracing the variety I manifest, with joy, or > seeing beauty in it. It is there.. Why are you are not seeing it? Where is > the fellowship? > > >No religion or teacher or tradition has a monopoly on the Essential Truth > >of Reality which is Our Own Nature. In this context, a > >focuses on the aspirations and experiences of individuals on the spiritual > >path. > > I expressed my experience, as an individual. > > > Everyone interested in any of the Shiva and Shakti traditions, and the > > related yogic and tantric paths > > That would be me.. > > >as well as those practicing primarily the cognitive methods of the pure > >nondual teachings of great Jnanis such as Ramana Maharshi are welcome to > >join. The discussions are typically expected to focus on Self-Realization, > >Kundalini Shakti and Its Manifestations, > > Yup. > > >God-Realization, the Goddess, Enlightenment, and various types of Samadhis > >(Savikalpa and Nirvikalpa). Discussion of various teachers and teachings > >can also be enriching as long as there is mutual respect and a feeling of > >amity in the conversation. > > Yup. I was respectful.. I am being respectful.. I am not feeling > respected. > > > Humor and poetry and other artistic expressions of the spiritual life > > are encouraged and supported. > > Humor.. yup... but I am not feeling supported.. > > Lobster is right.. it is time for me to go back to activism. This is > one of many signs that are coming up, lately. > > If, your reminder about disrespectful comment about a religion, refers > to my saying Allah is female, then you have really misread me. Realizing > that, was the only way I could find respect for a religion that treats > women worse than cattle. Do you know what happens to women in Muslim > countries, these days? Do you know what is occurring in Afghanistan? Open > your eyes. > > http://www.llamarose.com/women.html > http://www.rawa.org/women4.htm > http://www.phrusa.org/campaigns/afghanistan/index.html > http://www.rawa.org/haircut.htm > http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm > > No, I don't have any questions.. only sadness. > blessings.. > > At 11:56 AM 4/22/01, you wrote: > >Am CC'ing to you in case you don't read the list digest that often... > >this was just posted. > > > > > >Dear Angelique > > > >One of the reasons for creating different lists is to allow places > >for different preferences. If anyone would read what the list focus > >is from the description, they would certainly not expect to read a > >message on a topic like bondage. This list is open to all ages, and > >is not restricted to adults. We are not even R-rated, let alone X! > >Comments that may be seen as disrespectful of any religion are not > >in harmony with the list atmosphere, either. The moderators think it > >should be already clear that this would not be considered an > >appropriate message here. But if you have any questions, you are > >welcome to ask for clarification about those guidelines. > > > >Gloria Sponsor /join All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription between digest and normal mode. Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2001 Censorship would be condemning the choices and acts of another and at no point was Angelique condemned she was simply reminded that her posts were not appropriate here. I do not recall someone complaining about her children reading a post but I can recall hearing from a 16 year old girl who participated in one of the threads in response to her own spiritual journey. It seems to me that as parents we monitor music, tv, movies, books I can see no reason why we should have to monitor a spiritual satsangh for sexual content. Linda >I'm going to flog the dead horse a little more. Something has been >nagging >at me about this thread and I finally figured it out. It is my memory >that >the original objection to posted material by Angelique came from a woman >(?) >who was objecting on the grounds that HER CHILDREN might read the >offending >posts. Perhaps the woman objected herself and was hiding behind her >children, but the post to me felt like a little righteous slap to which >all >respondents (except Angelique and one other -- forgive me, I've forgotten >who) capitulated. We're all more or less grown-up. If posts offend we >can >complain and duke it out directly, leave, listen and/or compromise. If >we >don't want our children to read stuff, that is our responsiblity as >parents >to handle. Unlike other guideline snaggles we've untangled comfortably, >this >one had a real stink of censorship. Holly/joinAll paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription between digest and normal mode.Your use of is subject to the Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2001 At 12:02 PM 4/23/01, you wrote: > Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:48:15 -0400 > "Gloria Lee" <glee >Re: Re: guidelines > >Dear Angelique, > >I'm sorry you have taken this so personally, Well, of course I took it personally. I was not the person to bring up the subject of crucifying people, I simply elaborated on my own experience. With humor. Nobody reacted to the person who did bring it up. Everyone reacted to burn the Witch. > a I personally have nothing against your right or freedom to be whoever > you may want to be. From what I have known of you from previously being > on your list, your kindness was quite evident. thank you. > However you yourself have rules pertinent to how you wish your list to > be run. That there are some list restrictions may indeed be seen as > censorship, however this list is not intended for discussion of erotic or > sexual techniques and practices. Very likely almost everyone on the list > has a private sex life, we just don't come here to discuss that in particular. That is fine.. I have no problem with that.. but that is not what you said, in your email. You specifically commented on the topic of bondage and suggested I was being disrespectful of somebody's religion. I did not mention sex at all. I did not mention BDSM, by name, either. The context of the conversation was whether it is compassionate to offer suffering to those who find value in it. I related my personal experience. If discussion of sex is off topic, then perhaps the guidelines need to be amended to say so. Doing a search of the archives using the keyword "Sex", I found 500+ messages. These ranged from your own posting "Why chocolate is better than sex", to a long thread on "intense sexual desire". Plus threads on "Unlimited sex and Awareness, compassion etc." and "energy/perceptual clarity and sex." Just to name a few. Of course, I have not read all 500+ postings to determine their exact content. Scanning through a few of them, I discovered some postings that are decidedly related to "sexual practices".. such as message # 11377 where JB is discussing his own sex life and his marital relations, with regard to the effect of ejaculation on Kundalini. I also found several hundred posts, using the keyword "bondage.".. but I did not read their content. From this, I can only conclude that it is OK to talk about sex and bondage, so long as I am not the one talking.. and you wonder why I took it personally.. sigh. > Suggestions were already made to form another list where such topics > are welcome. There are many lists on such topics already. I post to them. That is not what this is about, IMO. Your extravagant reaction to a few words, seemed excessive and prejudicial, to me. Personal. Yes, it hurt my feelings. >Believing that God is female as in Allah, or whatever name you may prefer >is also your right and certainly no problem with that being expressed >here. The difficulties of Muslim women and the question of how some >practices may be considered abusive, is certainly in line with issues of >ahimsa. It has been previously mentioned at length on the list. OK. >Jesus on the cross is unquestionably a sacred symbol to millions of >Christians, and is at the heart of the religion. While anyone is free to >think whatever they like about Jesus, it would be considered disrespectful >of that image to discuss here using it as an erotic technique. Most >Christians would find that offensive. Ah, here we get to the heart of the matter. Your emotional reaction, as a Christian to what you perceived as disrespect. None was intended. Christianity was not mentioned. Jesus was not mentioned either. The cross being referred to, is not even a crucifix.. I explained in the post, that it is a big X shape... like on a "cross your heart" bra, not a +. That my comments would be offensive to Christians, never even crossed my mind. I was quite puzzled by your reference to religious disrespect, since the only religion I mentioned, other than my own is Islam. I was not talking about Christians. I was talking about compassion, and acts of love and pleasure. How the heck you read disrespect to Christians into that... I dunno.. I have to conclude that your issue with it, is *your* issue. Your perceptions. My X shaped toy is called a St. Andrews cross.. I don't know why, and I don't know who St. Andrew was. It is just the name of that type of device. I refer to my sandals as "Jesus boots", and I don't mean any disrespect by that, either. Binding anyone in an actual Jesus crucifixion pose is *not* part of BDSM practices, as there is considerable danger of death by suffocation. That is how people died on the cross.. by suffocation when the chest muscles cramped. That is why breaking the legs was done as an act of mercy. The crucified persons could no longer relieve the stress on the chest muscles by using their legs, and died quicker. Thousands of people were crucified by the Romans before Jesus, and thousands after. Most of them were not Christian. It was a popular method of torture, and it used many different types of structures, including hanging people on a wall. Not everyone automatically assumes references to a cross or to crucifixion are about Jesus. The druids also used a cross as part of their symbolism, and the Shamanic symbol is a cross within a circle. Witches symbol is the pentacle, which has been given considerable disrespect by Christians erroneously associating it with Satanism... which I occasionally encounter, when I wear the symbol. The original symbol of Christianity, was the fish. Peter was a fisherman. Further.. there is evidence that Christianity started out as partly a sex cult... as well as a doomsday cult. Christ said "love thy neighbor" and this was interpreted many ways before puritanism came in vogue. Christians greeted each other by kissing! Later, being whipped and crucified was a trendy form of worship, as it was thought to bring one closer to Jesus, experientially. Usually it was not intended to be a fatal experience... but it is very dangerous. It was also used as a form of torture by the Spanish Inquisition. In the Chivalry movement, in particular, women were considered manifestations of Mary, and for them to torture their husbands or suitors as a spiritual devotion that made the males more "Christlike" was considered a sacred expression of love and romance. Quite famous is the Christian flagellant movement, which is considered to have been effective medicine against the Black Plague in Europe, and there are some convent Nuns who still use this practice, in their spiritual-sexual role as "Brides of Christ." If there are Christians who find this offensive, it is because they are uneducated about their own religion. Because, doing research would make them a heretic... I offer these ideas to illustrate that my comments were not intended to offend anyone. My own attitude towards Christianity is best expressed by a quote from Mark Twain: "Christianity would be a great religion, if anyone ever tried it." In my experience, nobody ever does. Christ preached tolerance, and was forgiving of Samaritans and prostitutes. Certainly, "Most Christians" are quick to take offense at many things.. it is a religion that is notorious for repression, from burnt witches and executed heretics, to the current condition of bowing to moral majority pressure and removing adult email lists from their directories. Would Christ approve? I doubt it.. perhaps a more appropriate thread for this list, would be a debate about whether Christian repression is a projection of Christian guilt for not behaving as Christians. I'm sorry to hear you have been robbed.. that is a personal invasion that must be very stressful. Considering your situation and your defense of Christianity, the New Testament quote that came to mind, is something like "If a man asks for your shirt, give him your coat, too".. which suggests that the proper Christian response to being robbed on-line would be to send the thief a few thousand dollars more. I'm not suggesting you do that.. I wouldn't.. but then, I'm not a Christian. >If either Harsha or the list members in general disagree with my attempts >to moderate the list, I am happy to resign. If the list wishes to debate >the merits of my judgement here and as a group wants the list to have >other standards, its fine by me. Any further clarification or debate is >welcome too. I don't think anyone has called for your resignation, certainly I am not seeking it. The clarification is useful, I think, for all concerned. If anyone knows how hard it is to be a list moderator, it's me. I've been at the job longer than anybody here. If I can offer any suggestions to make the job easier, it would be to always wait a day before responding to correct someone.. and especially, before *reacting*.. and possibly over-reacting and making a mountain out of a molehill. Reaction starts a chain reaction.. that is part of the power and responsibility of moderator ship. I liked what Christopher wrote about when an empathic healer's centrifugal energy collides with somebody's blockages.. the person with the blockage reacts with efforts to control, and the healer goes berserk manifesting the dis-ease. When the Karma shit hits the healer fan, the healer gets spattered and ends up manifesting the dis-ease.. no kidding! I make a passing, innocent remark about my life, and the whole place gets in an uproar trying to control the crazy Witch. This ain't my stuff, Gloria. My energy poked your stuff, and you reacted to try to control me... and I do not accept it. I have ended up spending days bent out of shape, clearing stuff that is not my issue. It is your projections about what you *thought* I wrote. Stuff that you are not interested in clearing from yourself, when it is so much easier to project it onto me, with blame and efforts at control. You do not see that, at all.. you ask me why I take it personally. Oy. >Angelique, you have not been moderated or asked to leave or banned. A >simple request was made that the list was not a place for discussions of >BDSM in general, but most specifically, it was the use of the cross that I >reacted to. Well, with clarification it seems that what I actually wrote, and what you read are two quite different things... Yes, you *reacted* with a pretty typical knee-jerk Christian repressive response to what you *thought* I was saying... not to what I actually did say. While I respect that list moderator is a tough job, I tend to have little patience with that kind of thing. You have not had the experiences I have had, of harassment by "Christians" reacting to who they think I am and what they think I do. Oh, the stories I could tell. You have no idea. I walk around being my natural, happy heretical self, with my centrifugal field, and people act like I'm the devil incarnate. My heart voice named me well, Angelique Serpent.. but, it promised I would not get lynched... Christian Projections of their dis-ease have been an excuse to kill more people than any war or disease in history.. and they are so stuck in the righteousness that they never for a moment stop to consider that perhaps the problem is within them, and not with that which they judge. I'm sooo fed up with Christians using the motive of protecting their sacred cows as an excuse for everything from internet censorship to murdering abortion Doctors. Not you specifically, you just manifested a minor case of something I come up against, too often. On a related topic.. Someone asked about the situation with porn and censorship: was going to enter the porn industry to raise capital, but they got so many complaints from the moral majority, that instead they decided to go on a Witch-hunt and remove all sex related advertising from their search engine directory, remove all sex related lists from their clubs and listings, and delete many of the adult groups and clubs. Try it yourself. I did. Go to the main page, and do a search on "sex". The result is "Sorry, no matches were found for sex." Same result if you type in Kundalini sex. That means someone who might need to find my Kundalini-sex list, for people who are trying to come to terms with the intense sexuality that is one of the first side effects of awakening, is out of luck... thanks to Christians and their knee-jerk reactions. People looking for information on safe sex, or on sexually transmitted diseases are out of luck, too. I know, I checked. So are people looking for information on Christian sexuality, or sexual celibacy. The keyword "Homosexual" gives the same result. So much for suicidal gay teenagers trying to find a compassionate ear. Want to complain about censorship? Send your comments to investor_relations Ironically, a search on BDSM yields 100 lists. There ya go. Apparently, BDSM is not sex.. Blessings.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2001 Sheesh! Talk about beating a dead thread! Does anyone have a needle so we can sew this one up? (no disrespect intended Angelique, just finished my chocolate and I couldn't resist ; ) ) Love, ~jess ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ - "Mystress Angelique Serpent" <Mystress <> Tuesday, April 24, 2001 6:09 PM Re: guidelines > > At 12:02 PM 4/23/01, you wrote: > > Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:48:15 -0400 > > "Gloria Lee" <glee > >Re: Re: guidelines > > > >Dear Angelique, > > > >I'm sorry you have taken this so personally, > > Well, of course I took it personally. I was not the person to bring up > the subject of crucifying people, I simply elaborated on my own experience. > With humor. Nobody reacted to the person who did bring it up. Everyone > reacted to burn the Witch. > > > a I personally have nothing against your right or freedom to be whoever > > you may want to be. From what I have known of you from previously being > > on your list, your kindness was quite evident. > > thank you. > > > However you yourself have rules pertinent to how you wish your list to > > be run. That there are some list restrictions may indeed be seen as > > censorship, however this list is not intended for discussion of erotic or > > sexual techniques and practices. Very likely almost everyone on the list > > has a private sex life, we just don't come here to discuss that in particular. > > That is fine.. I have no problem with that.. but that is not what you > said, in your email. You specifically commented on the topic of bondage and > suggested I was being disrespectful of somebody's religion. > > I did not mention sex at all. I did not mention BDSM, by name, either. > The context of the conversation was whether it is compassionate to offer > suffering to those who find value in it. I related my personal experience. > > If discussion of sex is off topic, then perhaps the guidelines need to > be amended to say so. > > Doing a search of the archives using the keyword "Sex", I found 500+ > messages. These ranged from your own posting "Why chocolate is better than > sex", to a long thread on "intense sexual desire". Plus threads on > "Unlimited sex and Awareness, compassion etc." and "energy/perceptual > clarity and sex." Just to name a few. Of course, I have not read all 500+ > postings to determine their exact content. > Scanning through a few of them, I discovered some postings that are > decidedly related to "sexual practices".. such as message # 11377 where > JB is discussing his own sex life and his marital relations, with regard > to the effect of ejaculation on Kundalini. > I also found several hundred posts, using the keyword "bondage.".. > but I did not read their content. > > From this, I can only conclude that it is OK to talk about sex and > bondage, so long as I am not the one talking.. and you wonder why I took it > personally.. sigh. > > > Suggestions were already made to form another list where such topics > > are welcome. > > There are many lists on such topics already. I post to them. That is > not what this is about, IMO. Your extravagant reaction to a few words, > seemed excessive and prejudicial, to me. Personal. Yes, it hurt my feelings. > > >Believing that God is female as in Allah, or whatever name you may prefer > >is also your right and certainly no problem with that being expressed > >here. The difficulties of Muslim women and the question of how some > >practices may be considered abusive, is certainly in line with issues of > >ahimsa. It has been previously mentioned at length on the list. > > OK. > > >Jesus on the cross is unquestionably a sacred symbol to millions of > >Christians, and is at the heart of the religion. While anyone is free to > >think whatever they like about Jesus, it would be considered disrespectful > >of that image to discuss here using it as an erotic technique. Most > >Christians would find that offensive. > > Ah, here we get to the heart of the matter. Your emotional reaction, > as a Christian to what you perceived as disrespect. > > None was intended. Christianity was not mentioned. Jesus was not > mentioned either. The cross being referred to, is not even a crucifix.. I > explained in the post, that it is a big X shape... like on a "cross your > heart" bra, not a +. > That my comments would be offensive to Christians, never even crossed > my mind. I was quite puzzled by your reference to religious disrespect, > since the only religion I mentioned, other than my own is Islam. > > I was not talking about Christians. I was talking about compassion, and > acts of love and pleasure. How the heck you read disrespect to Christians > into that... I dunno.. I have to conclude that your issue with it, is > *your* issue. Your perceptions. > > My X shaped toy is called a St. Andrews cross.. I don't know why, and I > don't know who St. Andrew was. It is just the name of that type of device. > I refer to my sandals as "Jesus boots", and I don't mean any disrespect by > that, either. > > Binding anyone in an actual Jesus crucifixion pose is *not* part of > BDSM practices, as there is considerable danger of death by suffocation. > That is how people died on the cross.. by suffocation when the chest > muscles cramped. That is why breaking the legs was done as an act of mercy. > The crucified persons could no longer relieve the stress on the chest > muscles by using their legs, and died quicker. > > Thousands of people were crucified by the Romans before Jesus, and > thousands after. Most of them were not Christian. It was a popular method > of torture, and it used many different types of structures, including > hanging people on a wall. > > Not everyone automatically assumes references to a cross or to > crucifixion are about Jesus. The druids also used a cross as part of their > symbolism, and the Shamanic symbol is a cross within a circle. Witches > symbol is the pentacle, which has been given considerable disrespect by > Christians erroneously associating it with Satanism... which I occasionally > encounter, when I wear the symbol. > The original symbol of Christianity, was the fish. Peter was a fisherman. > > Further.. there is evidence that Christianity started out as partly a > sex cult... as well as a doomsday cult. Christ said "love thy neighbor" > and this was interpreted many ways before puritanism came in vogue. > Christians greeted each other by kissing! > > Later, being whipped and crucified was a trendy form of worship, as it > was thought to bring one closer to Jesus, experientially. Usually it was > not intended to be a fatal experience... but it is very dangerous. It was > also used as a form of torture by the Spanish Inquisition. > In the Chivalry movement, in particular, women were considered > manifestations of Mary, and for them to torture their husbands or suitors > as a spiritual devotion that made the males more "Christlike" was > considered a sacred expression of love and romance. > > Quite famous is the Christian flagellant movement, which is considered > to have been effective medicine against the Black Plague in Europe, and > there are some convent Nuns who still use this practice, in their > spiritual-sexual role as "Brides of Christ." > > If there are Christians who find this offensive, it is because they are > uneducated about their own religion. Because, doing research would make > them a heretic... > > I offer these ideas to illustrate that my comments were not intended > to offend anyone. My own attitude towards Christianity is best expressed by > a quote from Mark Twain: "Christianity would be a great religion, if anyone > ever tried it." In my experience, nobody ever does. > > Christ preached tolerance, and was forgiving of Samaritans and > prostitutes. Certainly, "Most Christians" are quick to take offense at many > things.. it is a religion that is notorious for repression, from burnt > witches and executed heretics, to the current condition of > bowing to moral majority pressure and removing adult email lists from their > directories. > > Would Christ approve? I doubt it.. perhaps a more appropriate thread > for this list, would be a debate about whether Christian repression is a > projection of Christian guilt for not behaving as Christians. > > I'm sorry to hear you have been robbed.. that is a personal invasion > that must be very stressful. > Considering your situation and your defense of Christianity, the New > Testament quote that came to mind, is something like "If a man asks for > your shirt, give him your coat, too".. which suggests that the proper > Christian response to being robbed on-line would be to send the thief a few > thousand dollars more. > > I'm not suggesting you do that.. I wouldn't.. but then, I'm not a > Christian. > > >If either Harsha or the list members in general disagree with my attempts > >to moderate the list, I am happy to resign. If the list wishes to debate > >the merits of my judgement here and as a group wants the list to have > >other standards, its fine by me. Any further clarification or debate is > >welcome too. > > I don't think anyone has called for your resignation, certainly I > am not seeking it. The clarification is useful, I think, for all concerned. > If anyone knows how hard it is to be a list moderator, it's me. I've been > at the job longer than anybody here. > > If I can offer any suggestions to make the job easier, it would be to > always wait a day before responding to correct someone.. and especially, > before *reacting*.. and possibly over-reacting and making a mountain out of > a molehill. Reaction starts a chain reaction.. that is part of the power > and responsibility of moderator ship. > > I liked what Christopher wrote about when an empathic healer's > centrifugal energy collides with somebody's blockages.. the person with the > blockage reacts with efforts to control, and the healer goes berserk > manifesting the dis-ease. > When the Karma shit hits the healer fan, the healer gets spattered and > ends up manifesting the dis-ease.. no kidding! I make a passing, innocent > remark about my life, and the whole place gets in an uproar trying to > control the crazy Witch. > > This ain't my stuff, Gloria. My energy poked your stuff, and you > reacted to try to control me... and I do not accept it. I have ended up > spending days bent out of shape, clearing stuff that is not my issue. It is > your projections about what you *thought* I wrote. Stuff that you are not > interested in clearing from yourself, when it is so much easier to project > it onto me, with blame and efforts at control. > You do not see that, at all.. you ask me why I take it personally. Oy. > > >Angelique, you have not been moderated or asked to leave or banned. A > >simple request was made that the list was not a place for discussions of > >BDSM in general, but most specifically, it was the use of the cross that I > >reacted to. > > Well, with clarification it seems that what I actually wrote, and what > you read are two quite different things... > > Yes, you *reacted* with a pretty typical knee-jerk Christian > repressive response to what you *thought* I was saying... not to what I > actually did say. While I respect that list moderator is a tough job, I > tend to have little patience with that kind of thing. > > You have not had the experiences I have had, of harassment by > "Christians" reacting to who they think I am and what they think I do. Oh, > the stories I could tell. You have no idea. I walk around being my natural, > happy heretical self, with my centrifugal field, and people act like I'm > the devil incarnate. My heart voice named me well, Angelique Serpent.. but, > it promised I would not get lynched... > > Christian Projections of their dis-ease have been an excuse to kill > more people than any war or disease in history.. and they are so stuck in > the righteousness that they never for a moment stop to consider that > perhaps the problem is within them, and not with that which they judge. > > I'm sooo fed up with Christians using the motive of protecting their > sacred cows as an excuse for everything from internet censorship to > murdering abortion Doctors. Not you specifically, you just manifested a > minor case of something I come up against, too often. > > On a related topic.. Someone asked about the situation with porn > and censorship: was going to enter the porn industry to raise > capital, but they got so many complaints from the moral majority, that > instead they decided to go on a Witch-hunt and remove all sex related > advertising from their search engine directory, remove all sex related > lists from their clubs and listings, and delete many of the adult > groups and clubs. > > Try it yourself. I did. Go to the main page, and do a > search on "sex". The result is "Sorry, no matches were found for sex." Same > result if you type in Kundalini sex. That means someone who might need to > find my Kundalini-sex list, for people who are trying to come to terms with > the intense sexuality that is one of the first side effects of awakening, > is out of luck... thanks to Christians and their knee-jerk reactions. > People looking for information on safe sex, or on sexually transmitted > diseases are out of luck, too. I know, I checked. So are people looking for > information on Christian sexuality, or sexual celibacy. The keyword > "Homosexual" gives the same result. So much for suicidal gay teenagers > trying to find a compassionate ear. > Want to complain about censorship? Send your comments to > investor_relations > > Ironically, a search on BDSM yields 100 lists. There ya go. Apparently, > BDSM is not sex.. > Blessings.. /join > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2001 Glo: >>I'm sorry you have taken this so personally Angelique: >Well, of course I took it personally. I was not the person to bring up the subject of crucifying people, I simply elaborated on my own experience. With humor. Nobody reacted to the person who did bring it up. Everyone reacted to burn the Witch. Dear Angelique, Without denying you the right to defend yourself, I am reacting to you from a different view point. If a host simply informs you that your words and topics are not appreciated inside his/her house, do you then proceed to do everything within your power to convince the host that he is being disrespectful? Or can you reach a point in your understanding where you can see that obeying the rules as the host outlines them to you, is part of your duty as a guest? Why are you so eager to even search for proof in past archives to prove that you have been treated disrespectfully, while this is about a live interaction in the present moment, that may have nothing at all to do with topics as they have been discussed in former posts? I support freedom of speech, but to quote an old friend: "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". I am not a Christian myself, I am a Wiccan by religion. But I know that much symbolism and texts from Pagan traditions are hurtful to Christians, simply because the associations they project on them are based on (in my view) erroneous assumptions. If a Christian is offended by that symbolism, why would I make it a point to prove them wrong, if that is the way they feel? I make it an issue not to offend people with my own beliefs, without compromising that belief, thus insuring true freedom of religion and faiths to the best of my abilities. The crede of my religioun is "an ye harm none, do as ye will", which comes down to ahimsa. There is something much more valuable than being right or wrong. It is that in which both these concepts of right and wrong arise. It is that which doesn't have an opposite, yet expresses itself in interrelated polarities such as right and wrong. It is what is common to all our views and all our words, no matter how distorted. It is what is the light of clarity itself, and pointing to that vastness, that sky, is far more liberating and illuminating than seeking out clouds to collide with. Just my opinion, With love, Mira Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2001 Angelique wrote: > there are some convent Nuns who still use this > practice, in their spiritual-sexual role as "Brides of Christ." When I was a Trappist monk we were supposed to self-flagellate... Could not find a good reason to apply it though, received enough flagellation otherwise. Love, Wim Greetings Angelique! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2001 Namaste All, Methinks the lady doth protesteth too much......ONS , Mystress Angelique Serpent <Mystress@k...> wrote: > > At 12:02 PM 4/23/01, you wrote: > > Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:48:15 -0400 > > "Gloria Lee" <glee@i...> > >Re: Re: guidelines > > > >Dear Angelique, > > > >I'm sorry you have taken this so personally, > > Well, of course I took it personally. I was not the person to bring up > the subject of crucifying people, I simply elaborated on my own experience. > With humor. Nobody reacted to the person who did bring it up. Everyone > reacted to burn the Witch. > > > a I personally have nothing against your right or freedom to be whoever > > you may want to be. From what I have known of you from previously being > > on your list, your kindness was quite evident. > > thank you. > > > However you yourself have rules pertinent to how you wish your list to > > be run. That there are some list restrictions may indeed be seen as > > censorship, however this list is not intended for discussion of erotic or > > sexual techniques and practices. Very likely almost everyone on the list > > has a private sex life, we just don't come here to discuss that in particular. > > That is fine.. I have no problem with that.. but that is not what you > said, in your email. You specifically commented on the topic of bondage and > suggested I was being disrespectful of somebody's religion. > > I did not mention sex at all. I did not mention BDSM, by name, either. > The context of the conversation was whether it is compassionate to offer > suffering to those who find value in it. I related my personal experience. > > If discussion of sex is off topic, then perhaps the guidelines need to > be amended to say so. > > Doing a search of the archives using the keyword "Sex", I found 500+ > messages. These ranged from your own posting "Why chocolate is better than > sex", to a long thread on "intense sexual desire". Plus threads on > "Unlimited sex and Awareness, compassion etc." and "energy/perceptual > clarity and sex." Just to name a few. Of course, I have not read all 500+ > postings to determine their exact content. > Scanning through a few of them, I discovered some postings that are > decidedly related to "sexual practices".. such as message # 11377 where > JB is discussing his own sex life and his marital relations, with regard > to the effect of ejaculation on Kundalini. > I also found several hundred posts, using the keyword "bondage.".. > but I did not read their content. > > From this, I can only conclude that it is OK to talk about sex and > bondage, so long as I am not the one talking.. and you wonder why I took it > personally.. sigh. > > > Suggestions were already made to form another list where such topics > > are welcome. > > There are many lists on such topics already. I post to them. That is > not what this is about, IMO. Your extravagant reaction to a few words, > seemed excessive and prejudicial, to me. Personal. Yes, it hurt my feelings. > > >Believing that God is female as in Allah, or whatever name you may prefer > >is also your right and certainly no problem with that being expressed > >here. The difficulties of Muslim women and the question of how some > >practices may be considered abusive, is certainly in line with issues of > >ahimsa. It has been previously mentioned at length on the list. > > OK. > > >Jesus on the cross is unquestionably a sacred symbol to millions of > >Christians, and is at the heart of the religion. While anyone is free to > >think whatever they like about Jesus, it would be considered disrespectful > >of that image to discuss here using it as an erotic technique. Most > >Christians would find that offensive. > > Ah, here we get to the heart of the matter. Your emotional reaction, > as a Christian to what you perceived as disrespect. > > None was intended. Christianity was not mentioned. Jesus was not > mentioned either. The cross being referred to, is not even a crucifix.. I > explained in the post, that it is a big X shape... like on a "cross your > heart" bra, not a +. > That my comments would be offensive to Christians, never even crossed > my mind. I was quite puzzled by your reference to religious disrespect, > since the only religion I mentioned, other than my own is Islam. > > I was not talking about Christians. I was talking about compassion, and > acts of love and pleasure. How the heck you read disrespect to Christians > into that... I dunno.. I have to conclude that your issue with it, is > *your* issue. Your perceptions. > > My X shaped toy is called a St. Andrews cross.. I don't know why, and I > don't know who St. Andrew was. It is just the name of that type of device. > I refer to my sandals as "Jesus boots", and I don't mean any disrespect by > that, either. > > Binding anyone in an actual Jesus crucifixion pose is *not* part of > BDSM practices, as there is considerable danger of death by suffocation. > That is how people died on the cross.. by suffocation when the chest > muscles cramped. That is why breaking the legs was done as an act of mercy. > The crucified persons could no longer relieve the stress on the chest > muscles by using their legs, and died quicker. > > Thousands of people were crucified by the Romans before Jesus, and > thousands after. Most of them were not Christian. It was a popular method > of torture, and it used many different types of structures, including > hanging people on a wall. > > Not everyone automatically assumes references to a cross or to > crucifixion are about Jesus. The druids also used a cross as part of their > symbolism, and the Shamanic symbol is a cross within a circle. Witches > symbol is the pentacle, which has been given considerable disrespect by > Christians erroneously associating it with Satanism... which I occasionally > encounter, when I wear the symbol. > The original symbol of Christianity, was the fish. Peter was a fisherman. > > Further.. there is evidence that Christianity started out as partly a > sex cult... as well as a doomsday cult. Christ said "love thy neighbor" > and this was interpreted many ways before puritanism came in vogue. > Christians greeted each other by kissing! > > Later, being whipped and crucified was a trendy form of worship, as it > was thought to bring one closer to Jesus, experientially. Usually it was > not intended to be a fatal experience... but it is very dangerous. It was > also used as a form of torture by the Spanish Inquisition. > In the Chivalry movement, in particular, women were considered > manifestations of Mary, and for them to torture their husbands or suitors > as a spiritual devotion that made the males more "Christlike" was > considered a sacred expression of love and romance. > > Quite famous is the Christian flagellant movement, which is considered > to have been effective medicine against the Black Plague in Europe, and > there are some convent Nuns who still use this practice, in their > spiritual-sexual role as "Brides of Christ." > > If there are Christians who find this offensive, it is because they are > uneducated about their own religion. Because, doing research would make > them a heretic... > > I offer these ideas to illustrate that my comments were not intended > to offend anyone. My own attitude towards Christianity is best expressed by > a quote from Mark Twain: "Christianity would be a great religion, if anyone > ever tried it." In my experience, nobody ever does. > > Christ preached tolerance, and was forgiving of Samaritans and > prostitutes. Certainly, "Most Christians" are quick to take offense at many > things.. it is a religion that is notorious for repression, from burnt > witches and executed heretics, to the current condition of > bowing to moral majority pressure and removing adult email lists from their > directories. > > Would Christ approve? I doubt it.. perhaps a more appropriate thread > for this list, would be a debate about whether Christian repression is a > projection of Christian guilt for not behaving as Christians. > > I'm sorry to hear you have been robbed.. that is a personal invasion > that must be very stressful. > Considering your situation and your defense of Christianity, the New > Testament quote that came to mind, is something like "If a man asks for > your shirt, give him your coat, too".. which suggests that the proper > Christian response to being robbed on-line would be to send the thief a few > thousand dollars more. > > I'm not suggesting you do that.. I wouldn't.. but then, I'm not a > Christian. > > >If either Harsha or the list members in general disagree with my attempts > >to moderate the list, I am happy to resign. If the list wishes to debate > >the merits of my judgement here and as a group wants the list to have > >other standards, its fine by me. Any further clarification or debate is > >welcome too. > > I don't think anyone has called for your resignation, certainly I > am not seeking it. The clarification is useful, I think, for all concerned. > If anyone knows how hard it is to be a list moderator, it's me. I've been > at the job longer than anybody here. > > If I can offer any suggestions to make the job easier, it would be to > always wait a day before responding to correct someone.. and especially, > before *reacting*.. and possibly over-reacting and making a mountain out of > a molehill. Reaction starts a chain reaction.. that is part of the power > and responsibility of moderator ship. > > I liked what Christopher wrote about when an empathic healer's > centrifugal energy collides with somebody's blockages.. the person with the > blockage reacts with efforts to control, and the healer goes berserk > manifesting the dis-ease. > When the Karma shit hits the healer fan, the healer gets spattered and > ends up manifesting the dis-ease.. no kidding! I make a passing, innocent > remark about my life, and the whole place gets in an uproar trying to > control the crazy Witch. > > This ain't my stuff, Gloria. My energy poked your stuff, and you > reacted to try to control me... and I do not accept it. I have ended up > spending days bent out of shape, clearing stuff that is not my issue. It is > your projections about what you *thought* I wrote. Stuff that you are not > interested in clearing from yourself, when it is so much easier to project > it onto me, with blame and efforts at control. > You do not see that, at all.. you ask me why I take it personally. Oy. > > >Angelique, you have not been moderated or asked to leave or banned. A > >simple request was made that the list was not a place for discussions of > >BDSM in general, but most specifically, it was the use of the cross that I > >reacted to. > > Well, with clarification it seems that what I actually wrote, and what > you read are two quite different things... > > Yes, you *reacted* with a pretty typical knee-jerk Christian > repressive response to what you *thought* I was saying... not to what I > actually did say. While I respect that list moderator is a tough job, I > tend to have little patience with that kind of thing. > > You have not had the experiences I have had, of harassment by > "Christians" reacting to who they think I am and what they think I do. Oh, > the stories I could tell. You have no idea. I walk around being my natural, > happy heretical self, with my centrifugal field, and people act like I'm > the devil incarnate. My heart voice named me well, Angelique Serpent.. but, > it promised I would not get lynched... > > Christian Projections of their dis-ease have been an excuse to kill > more people than any war or disease in history.. and they are so stuck in > the righteousness that they never for a moment stop to consider that > perhaps the problem is within them, and not with that which they judge. > > I'm sooo fed up with Christians using the motive of protecting their > sacred cows as an excuse for everything from internet censorship to > murdering abortion Doctors. Not you specifically, you just manifested a > minor case of something I come up against, too often. > > On a related topic.. Someone asked about the situation with porn > and censorship: was going to enter the porn industry to raise > capital, but they got so many complaints from the moral majority, that > instead they decided to go on a Witch-hunt and remove all sex related > advertising from their search engine directory, remove all sex related > lists from their clubs and listings, and delete many of the adult > groups and clubs. > > Try it yourself. I did. Go to the main page, and do a > search on "sex". The result is "Sorry, no matches were found for sex." Same > result if you type in Kundalini sex. That means someone who might need to > find my Kundalini-sex list, for people who are trying to come to terms with > the intense sexuality that is one of the first side effects of awakening, > is out of luck... thanks to Christians and their knee-jerk reactions. > People looking for information on safe sex, or on sexually transmitted > diseases are out of luck, too. I know, I checked. So are people looking for > information on Christian sexuality, or sexual celibacy. The keyword > "Homosexual" gives the same result. So much for suicidal gay teenagers > trying to find a compassionate ear. > Want to complain about censorship? Send your comments to > investor_relations > > Ironically, a search on BDSM yields 100 lists. There ya go. Apparently, > BDSM is not sex.. > Blessings.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2001 , "Jessica White" <ellam-ondre@h...> wrote: > Sheesh! > Talk about beating a dead thread! > Does anyone have a needle so we can sew this one up? > > (no disrespect intended Angelique, just finished my chocolate and I couldn't > resist ; ) ) > > Love, > ~jess > At least snip before you start sewing, Jess, please ? There are lots of ppl on the digest version of the list and they would appreciate not having super long mails repeated over and over again in the digest. It only takes a moment to snip. On beforehand thanks. Amanda. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
