Vikram Ramsundar

Better knock on wood. Oh, no. Too late. We've already seen how "mannered" you were on that other thread.

 

Well, at least I don't use swear words such as the one your fellow practicing Vaishnava did, and which I quoted in my reply to him. I travel and move in professional circles frequented by educated, professional, upper middle-class persons who could for sure teach you one or two things about social etiquette. And regarding one of the comments (uninvited of course, for it was none of your beeswax in all frankness) you made about what I wrote, I don't consider my statements to be brazen in the least. Keep your faschist dogmas on the issues I mentioned therein to yourself. They only make sense to you and your ilk, not those like myself who live in the real world.

Again so what!! Whether you believe it or not, you are right now nitya siddha!

You don't have to suck up to anyone or be a member of ISKCON because the fact is you are and always have been nitya-siddha. It’s not just an ISKCON thing, realist hates the present version of ISKCON, but it does not change his belief that 'right now' we are all nitya-siddha.

Even some GBC men, like Banu Maharaj cannot understand that we are all nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna. Not even he can recognize the eternal 'present' which simply means, once in the eternal present, it will be as if we have always been there because of the absents of past and future.

In fact, most ISKCON devotee’s, including Gurus and Sannyasi's, cannot comprehend this fact and prefer NOT to discus it. Vey few ISKCON temple devotees comment on these posts.

Go on most ISKCON sites and you will not see it NEVER discussed. In fact in many Temples discussion of this topic is 'unofficially banned’. We can’t understand it so why discuss it. After all Srila Prabhupada told us not to waste our time discussing it. Type in ISKCON Melbourne and write 'origin of the jiva soul', nothing comes up because no one there has any solid understanding, Banu Swami will not discuss it, Ramai Swami answers this by saying it is a mystery or refers devotees to 'our original position', which frankly is not that clear on the subject. Yes Srila Prabhuada told us in a letter in 1972 (I was there) that it is better not to waste our time on this subject however in another letter in 1974 in Mayapur Srila Prabhupada says we must try and understand that we have come down from Vaikuntha and says of devotees who avoid trying to understand that we are now in Goloka, but presently only ‘think’ imagine and dream we are not there, when in fact we are perpetually there, is they don’t want to know. This why most ISKCON temples have adopted the 1972, 'Crow and Tala-fruit Logic letter instead of the 1974 Mayapur lecture.

Even all outside sites at Melbourne Temple web site have been censored. Other ISKCON Temples around the world are not so fanatical, such as Dandavats and some American Temples, although you can’t blame Temple Presidents trying to protect young devotees from outside controversies and ragging and often abusive debates.

iskcon.com - ISKCON Communications Journal - ICJ

 

<TABLE style="mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 408pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=544>In 1972, in response to a letter from his Australian disciples, Prabhupada dictated a brief essay entitled 'Crow and Tala-fruit Logic. ...

 

 

 

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Well, I'm only asking not to be proselytized. I have good relations with several ISKCON members who most definitely share your belief in the descent from Goloka theory. And I also agree with those who choose not to discuss it at length, because that seems to be a reasonable option in my opinion. What I and many others do not appreciate is the fact that you and some others are so bullish about this entire question. You rest confident in your ideas and allow the rest of us the same courtesy. Respect our differing takes on the matter. Pranam

O I do so bring out the wolf under the sheep's clothing - don't I? Dismantling the facade of scholarship and discussion, laying bare the pool of stagnant aparadha. Thank you, Krsna.

What new could be expected from you, gHari? I wonder if you don't fall asleep when you read your own worthless posts at times. If I were you, I sure would. At least, I have the guts to publicly state what I am. On the other hand, you are a sick, self-righteous, holier-than-thou goody-goody who deserves to be completely ignored and given the silent treatment, nothing less. And that is exactly what I shall proceed to do from now on. Expect no more replies, whether on this thread or any other.

arseholes

By the way, I have never and will never make use of this abject variety of invective on a spiritually-oriented website, even being the lowly meat-eater and drinker that I am. I am myself continually stunned by the fact that I fare a lot better in the area of manners and etiquette than quite a few "devotees". And it doesn't take a genius to figure out where the majority of those uncouth, boorish oafs come from.

So what? It does change the fact that 'right now', you and I and every living entity including those 'dreaming' in the bodily vessels as hogs, dogs, camels and arseholes are ALL nitya-siddha. See, you Guruvani and all the others trapped in 'I AM FROM THE IMPERSONAL BRAHMAJYOTI NONSENSE misundertood from Sridar Maharaj's plain sheet of impersonal conscious silly teachings', cannot understand that once you are in Goloka it will be as if you have never left - Read the transcendental teachings of Vigraha and you will understand, he has even become nice now to the Gaudiya math:D Although that want last because impersonalism has poisioned the present day version of the Gaudiya math

 

The the real eternal truth as givin by OUR Srila Prabhupada below:namaskar:

OOP is a joke that is not worth the paper on which it is printed. Be happy in ISKCON. I'd rather slaughter cows for a living rather than suck up to the sleeper-vadis.

Dear sir, when proposing a text for discussion it is not enough to just copy and paste it but to also present a compendium what you have understood from this article and in this way highlight what is of importance for you.

My apologies, Sir, I will get down to that when I have a little more time. What I don't understand is why folks who have the audacity to preach to others feel the need to utilise irony, sarcasm and personal insults, whether direct or camouflaged, when they are confronted with material that runs counter to what they have been indoctrinated with. Take the example of gHari. The guy is a total loser, and has nothing positive which could be of help to anybody else. What he excels at is to get on his high horse whenever someone who isn't from his "camp" utters something.

Everyone knows that OOP is the work of Drutakarma first and foremost. Suhotra "Swami" became known as Suhotra Prabhu shortly before his departure from this world, because he "fell" and was forced to give up the sannyasa ashram. He even needed to ask for forgiveness from his so-called disciples for having let them down.

That's nice, yadda yadda yadda, but that Bhagavatam purport sure makes some of those initial theories seem ridiculous. To me, anyway - just more wild fanatacism of children in light of that Bhagavatam purport.

 

If that piece is so scholarly then why did it only take me ten minutes to find a Prabhupada quote that the author missed which completely vanquishes the sentimentalist theories? That don't impress me nohow as 'scholarly', clever or sincere. I just feels like ah bin played for a foo, saying Prabhupada didn't say this and didn't say that, yadda yadda yadda.

 

So we get to the other book of the scholarly treatise. But why - to find out whether the Golden Age starts with Prabhupada or the ritviks or with Lord Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu? That question never even occurred to me. It's prajalpa, a waste of time.

 

So am I trying to second guess a pure devotee of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada, presuming I even know the source of his convictions? I am not that great. If I don't find it here or there still I can make no statements about whether it exists.

 

There is certainly no need to exaggerate the glories of the sankirtana movement. No one can possibly describe its greatness. I would suggest that if you feel difficulty with Prabhupada's words, then forget about it and get on with your devotion - this is all taking you in the wrong direction, unless you plan to stay around hereabouts longer than 8,514 years.

Just some more nonsensical hogwash from a Prabhupada-onlyite. gHari, I don't recall ever reading a single sentence emanating from you on these forums which was worth the time and effort. You are so predictably insipid, boring and dull, like all those of your ilk.

Just so you know, these forums are meant for each and every person who has an interest in Hinduism, and every such individual in entitled to use this site in order to gather further information and thereby become slightly wiser, which is precisely what I am doing. And for the record, I am no devotee but a full-blown materialist who happens to have a religious leaning - I eat meat, take alcohol, love going to the horseraces and I intend on continuing to pursue these activities till I kick the bucket. So, whether I advance in bhakti or not is not an issue as far as I am concerned. I'll leave that to God. If ever he wants me near Him, he shall guide me from within so that I can act in a way that enables me to attain Him. I know enough to permit myself to declare that ISKCON won't be that way, though. So, you can keep your suggestions to yourself. I definitely do not require them.

What exactly attracted your attention when reading BHRIGUPADA DASA's article?

May be, "Contrary to popular belief within ISKCON, we have seen that Prabhupada’s prophecy regarding the Golden Age does not seem to have a scriptural source."?

The entire text was pretty compelling for me. And for your information, Bhrigupada is an accomplished Sanskrit scholar, in addition to being a practicing Gaudiya Vaishnava, and I am aware of his work outside of this essay as well. Any careful and attentive intellectual would find his article well-researched and rich in ideas. It's a shame that you didn't, which maybe speaks reams about your IQ and/or level of education. I am a qualified finance professional who slugs his butt away in order to earn a living in the real world, and at the same time, have always felt powerfully drawn to the spiritual philosophy that is delineated in the Vedas and Puranas. I surely have little time for such deplorable sarcasm from some clown who has nothing better than resorting to ironic comments instead of trying to contribute in a real fashion to a debate.

To Beggar, Theist, Murali_Mohan_das and Mahak, I concur with the gist of all your arguments, as those are laden with balance, humility, objectivity and common sense.

To Guruvani, I have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised at your change of heart. Your posts now are a far cry from what they were just 5 or 6 months ago when you came down on me so hard for defending the Gaudiya Matha and traditional Parivaras against the typical, standard ISKCON derogatory remarks and petty insults. I had realised that mainstream ISKCON was a non-starter after witnessing first-hand their discriminatory, immature mentality and cultish attitude through frequent association with them. And yes, I am also familar with the useless cabbage leaf called "Our Original Position", written by Drutakarma dasa alias Michael A. Cremo. I am glad that you've altered your tune, otherwise you were a lost case. Good for you.

Hari Om and Hari Bol

The chronology is therefore not 5,000 + 10,000, as in the prophecy mentioned by Prabhupada, but 10,000 years of devotees and image worship, out of which the first half has the added benefit of the presence of the Ganga. What we have here is thus clearly not a presentation of a Golden Age, but a standard Puranic dystrophy, with the added calamity of all the holy places and people gradually leaving India. In other words, the text is exhorting the readers to take these things seriously. Time is short! In addition to that, the Purana is offering a mahatmya or description of the greatness of the devotees of Vishnu. This is particularly evident in BVP 2.6. 84-123, where a similar passage about the Ganga as the first one (BVP 4.129.49-60) launches into a very lengthy description of the glorious devotees of the Lord.

 

Now, as seen above, Prabhupada’s main point concerning the Golden Age was that it is the last chance for humanity to attain spiritual perfection before the full force of Kali sets in. If we consider everything else - the timely rains, Vaishnavism taking over the world, and so on - as added by somewhat fanciful disciples, we could consider this passage of the Brahma-vaivarta Purana as being the origin of Prabhupada’s idea of the Golden Age. Still, one major problem remains: the passage of the Brahma-vaivarta Purana says nothing about this age beginning with Caitanya, but has it start from the beginning of the age of Kali.

 

In general, the Brahma-vaivarta Purana is of dubious authority for Gaudiya Vaishnavas. While the Goswamis occasionally quote it, I have not been able to locate a single one of the verses quoted in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, a text that I have worked on, in the present edition of the text. Scholars are of the opinion that the text has been completely revamped after the time of the Goswamis. This is particularly evident in the general emphasis of the Brahma-vaivarta Purana. While classical sources characterize this Purana as being rajasic (e.g. Padma Purana 5.236.18-21), in its present form, it is a clearly Vaishnava text that presents Krishna as the Supreme - though its doctrines do not always conform to Gaudiya Vaishnavism. For example, Lord Caitanya makes no mention of the upcoming disappearance of the Ganga when he teaches Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya that in the age of Kali, Krishna is present especially in Jagannatha and the Ganga river (CC 2.15.134-136). As far as I know, Prabhupada also never taught that the Ganga river present today would be illusory, the real Ganga having returned to Vaikuntha, or that Varanasi and Vrindavana would be the only sacred places left on earth.

 

6. Looking for the source elsewhere

 

Having thus rejected these scriptures as the direct source for Prabhupada’s idea, we have to return to his own statement. “I have heard it” - if not from where, from whom? One natural source would be his own guru, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati (1874-1937), but I have not been able to find the idea in his writings. Neither did Prabhupada’s godbrothers seem to to the idea. B.R. Sridhara Maharaja (1895-1988), never spoke about any Golden Age (Swami B.V. Tripurari, letter to author) and was not interested in the prophecy when it was brought up (Swami B.G. Narasingha, letter to Janne Kontala). In his article “Origin and Eschatology of Hindu Religion,” B.H. Bon Maharaja (1901-1982) does not say anything about a Golden Age, even though it would have been the perfect opportunity (Bon Maharaj 1984: 132-147).

 

However, B.V. Narayana Maharaja, a disciple of a close godbrother of Prabhupada’s, B.P. Kesava Maharaja (1898-1968), teaches about a millennium, but a different one. His idea is that since Caitanya appeared in this age of Kali, it has been changed into a “fortunate Kali.” Rather than decline spiritually, humanity will gradually become more and more spiritually advanced as Lord Caitanya’s sankirtana movement spreads everywhere. Finally, when Kali reaches its end, Kalki will not have to descend, or if he does, he will simply join the sankirtana (Broo 2003b: 212-213)! Thus, instead of lasting the ten thousand years Prabhupada always mentioned, the Golden Age here lasts almost 427 000. Narayana Maharaja may have received the idea of a “fortunate Kali” from another Gaudiya Vaishnava teacher, Kanupriya Goswami, who presented it already in 1929 in an article called “Dawn of The Age of Love” (Goswami 1999: 25-27). There are also other millenarian ideas within the larger scope of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, such as in the group following Prabhu Jagadbandhu (Broo 2003b: 213-215), but they differ significantly from the one presented by Prabhupada.

 

One source to be investigated is B.S. Goswami Maharaja (1895-1958), another godbrother of Prabhupada’s, one that he had some co-operation with before going to the West (Satsvarupa Dasa Goswami 1994: 172-178). Until any further findings come to light, we simply have to stick to Prabhupada’s vague “I have heard it.”

 

7. Conclusions

 

Contrary to popular belief within ISKCON, we have seen that Prabhupada’s prophecy regarding the Golden Age does not seem to have a scriptural source. While the Puranas paint a gloomy future for humanity in the age of Kali, they do give some hope, such as when the Bhagavata extols the supremely liberating power of nama-sankirtana. Nonetheless, the texts explicitly mentioned by Prabhupada do not contain any descriptions of a ten thousand-year Golden Age, neither does the passage of the Brahma-vaivarta Purana that some of his followers have brought forward. Will this finding prove a problem for members of ISKCON? Hardly. Prabhupada’s authority within the movement is unassailable. After all, the reason some of his followers brought forward the passage of the Brahma-vaivarta Purana was not to proclaim the glories of that particular text, but to shed more light on Prabhupada’s glorious words. Prabhupada is the authority that the Purana is made to support, not the other way around. If that source is found faulty in this regard, the search for a scriptural source will no doubt continue.

 

Does this then mean that Prabhupada imagined the whole prophecy or just made it up? No. Gaudiya Vaishnava theology believes in the possibility of further revelation (Tripurari 2001: 131-132), and since Prabhupada is widely respected as an empowered spiritual master within the Gaudiya Vaishnava world, to think that he would have received such a revelation should be perfectly acceptable.

 

References

 

A. Printed sources

 

Bon Maharaja, Dr. Swami Bhakti Hridaya 1984. My Lectures in England & Germany. Vrindaban: Bhajan Kutir.

 

Brahma-vaivarta-purana of Krishna Dvaipayana Vyasa. Vol I-II. Ed. [with an English introduction by] J.L. Sastri. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1984.

 

Broo, Mans 2003a. As Good as God. The Guru in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Abo: Abo Akademi University Press.

 

-------------- 2003b. Tre exempel pa millenarism inom gaudiya vaisnavismen. In Manniskan och tiden/ Time and Humanity. Ed. Nils G. Holm & Ulrika Wolf-Knuts. Abo: Abo Akademi University Press.

 

Charpentier, Marie-Therese 2003. Divine Saviour on a White Horse. Apocalyptic and Messianic Conceptions in Modern India. In Manniskan och tiden/ Time and Humanity. Ed. Nils G. Holm & Ulrika Wolf-Knuts. Abo: Abo Akademi University Press.

 

Dasa, Shukavak N. 1999. Hindu Encounter with Modernity. Kedarnath Datta Bhaktivinoda, Vaishnava Theologian. Los Angeles: Sri.

 

Goswami, Kanupriya 1999. Dawn of The Age of Love. Calcutta: Gourrai Goswami.

 

Goswami, Satsvarupa Dasa 1994. Srila Prabhupada-Lilamrita. A Biography of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. One volume edition. Bombay: The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust.

 

Knapp, Stephen 2001. The Vedic Prophecies: A New Look Into the Future. The Eastern Answers to the Mysteries of Life, Vol III.

 

Kontala, Janne [forthcoming]. Ajan pyora Hare Krishna-liikkeen opeissa. MA-paper. Helsinki: University of Helsinki.

 

Padma Mahapuranam. 2nd ed. Vol I-IV. Delhi: Nag Publishers, 1996.

 

Shepperson, George 1962. The Comparative Study of Millenarian Movements. In Millennial Dreams in Action. Essays in Comparative Study. Ed. Sylvia L. Thrupp. The Hague: Mouton.

 

Tripurari, Swami B.V. 2001. The Bhagavad Gita, its feeling and philosophy. San Rafael: Mandala Publishing Group.

 

B. Letters

 

Narasingha, Swami B.G. To Janne Kontala [n.d] Tripurari, Swami. To author, 13.1.2003

 

C. Internet links

http://www.gaurangadharma.org/

 

<DD>(Accessed 8.9.2004)

http://harekrishnaworld.com/main/chant-for-unity.html

 

<DD>(Accessed 9.9.2004)

http://www.indiadivine.org/brahma-vaivarta-purana1.htm

 

<DD>(Accessed 8.9.2004)

http://www.krishna.org/sudarsana/goldage.html

 

<DD>(Accessed 8.9.2004)

http://www.prabhupada.com/Bhaktivedanta%20Archives%20-%20Vision,%20Goals,%20Activities.pdf.

 

<DD>(Accessed 5.9.2004)

http://www.prout.org/ChapterTwo.html

 

<DD>(Accessed 10.9.2004)

http://www.salagram.net/kalki.html

 

<DD>(Accessed 5.9.2004)

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/a_c_bhaktivedanta_swami_prabhupada.htm

 

<DD>(Accessed 9.9.2004)

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/spacarya.htm

 

<DD>(Accessed 6.9.2004)

 

D. Other material

The Bhaktivedanta VedaBase 4.11. Los Angeles: The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.

 

</DD>

For the benefit of readers, I am hereby reproducing the text of Bhrigupada Prabhu's write-up in its entirety, in two parts. Please feel free to comment on what follows. Om tat sat

Srila Prabhupada and the Golden Age

 

 

BY: BHRIGUPADA DASA

 

 

Apr 24, HELSINKI, FINLAND (SUN) — Since the subject of the “Golden Age” and especially its purported scriptural support in the Brahma-vaivarta Purana has recently come up on the Sampradaya Sun, several senior Vaishnavas have requested me to post an article that I wrote on this topic some years ago. I am complying with their request by presenting this abbreviated and slightly modified version of the original article, which appeared in Satyaraja Prabhu’s Journal of Vaishnava Studies 13:2 (Spring 2003), in the hope of generating further research into this fascinating subject.

 

Because of the age of the article, some of the Internet links may not be functional anymore, for which I beg the readers’ pardon. Though I do reach some conclusions below, I wish to emphasise that I do not presume to present some kind of absolute truth. Rather, I see this as one step on the way to furthering our knowledge on the subject.

In Helsinki, 24.4.2007,

Bhrigupada Dasa

 

 

1. The Golden Age in and around ISKCON

 

There are several views within and around ISKCON regarding when the Golden Age will begin. Most hold that it began with the birth of Lord Caitanya (1486-1533), (e.g. source link), but it is also common to think that it began with the birth of Srila Prabhupada, especially since he is purported to having stated that his books will be the “law books for the next ten thousand years” (e.g. source link.

 

Another opinion is that it began in 1986, a year in which ISKCON went through a major administrative reform (Kavicandra Swami, personal communication to the author, 15.6.2002). At any rate, it has begun already, and while the beneficial effects of the new age may seem small at present, they will slowly but surely increase. The beginning will be characterised by a polarization between the forces of light and the forces of darkness (Knapp 2001: 65), but, at the apex of the Golden Age, there will be a “heaven on earth” (source link):

 

[There] will be regular rainfall all over the planet, the climate will become very pleasant, the earth will produce abundant quantities of food grains, the cows will produce unlimited quantities of milk, the oceans and rivers will produce minerals, jewels and natural fertilizers and the forests will provide honey, fruits, flowers and medicinal drugs. Conflict and anxiety will disappear as Krishna becomes the central point of everyone's activities.

 

However, this is not an automatic process: it hinges on the successful missionary activities of Prabhupada’s followers (e.g. Knapp 2001: 80-81). Such an idea is well-known from Christian post-millennialism (see for example Shepperson 1962: 44-45), wherein the millennium or future “Golden Age” is expected to precede the coming saviour, and it will come about gradually, not as the result of some single, cataclysmic event. Though for ISKCON members, the saviour has already come (Caitanya/ Prabhupada), the appearance of the millennium is similarly expected to be gradual.

 

2. Srila Prabhupada on the Golden Age

 

Curiously enough, looking through the Vedabase, one does not find very much about this Golden Age. The first occurrence of this idea is in a conversation with a disciple in September of 1968 (680927le.sea), but since the disciple there refers back to having heard about a prophecy of the “Golden Age of Kali”, Prabhupada must have spoken about it before. While disciples would later endeavour to record Prabhupada’s every word, casual conversations were generally not taped during the first years.

 

Srila Prabhupada would continue to mention the idea a few more times over the years, usually only in passing. It is interesting to note that on two of the four recorded occasions that he himself broached the topic, it was in conversations with “important” persons (the poet Allen Ginsberg and the historian Arnold Toynbee, 690513rc.col and 730722rc.lon). This may have been done to impress upon these people the upcoming importance of the movement, in those years still very much in a fledgling condition.

 

Almost all the times the idea of the Golden Age is mentioned, the occurrence is prompted by disciples wishing to know more about this encouraging prophecy (e.g.760605mw.la, 760611mw.la). Since the idea of a future millennium is such a popular Judaeo-Christian theme, perhaps especially so in the United States, it is easy to understand that many of Prabhupada’s American disciples were fascinated with it. After all, who wouldn’t like to imagine a glorious future, especially if faced with trouble and disappointments in the present?

 

Still, at least in the recorded material, Srila Prabhupada gives very few details about this Golden Age. The duration, ten thousand years, is mentioned (e.g. 760621cr.tor), that Krishna consciousness during this time is “like a wave, first increasing, then decreasing” (690513rc.col), or just generally that it will increase (730722rc.lon). Moreover, Prabhupada often seemed to downplay the mythical side of the prophecy, tending to a more pragmatic view of it. For example (680927le.sea):

 

• Madhudvisa: Prabhupada, what was exactly predicted by Lord Caitanya when He predicted the Golden Age of Kali, the age in the Age of Kali when people would be chanting the Hare Krishna mantra?
  Prabhupada: Yes. People... Just like we are now preaching Hare Krishna. In your country there was no such preaching. […] If you have taken up this formula very nicely, then you will go on preaching, and it will be spread all over the world. Very simple thing.

Several years later, he stressed the same point to another, similarly enthusiastic disciple (760605mw.la): “You work sincerely; it will increase, it will increase.” This is, as noted above, a common, post-millenarian idea. Similarly, when asked whether ISKCON would ever “take over the world,” he always answered in a very pragmatic way, saying that such a possibility would be there if the members of ISKCON were serious and sincere (750311mw.lo and 760706r3.wdc). However, when the same enthusiastic disciple took up the subject of the Golden Age a few days later (760611mw.la), Prabhupada again replied in a similar way (“provided you keep it uncontaminated”), but this time also added some incentive:

 

• Ramesvara: So after ten years we have gotten so many devotees and so many houses, so I can’t imagine how big this movement will be after ten thousand years.
  Prabhupada: Yes. You’ll get the government.
  Ramesvara: The whole world will be delivered?
  Prabhupada: Yad yad acarati sresthah. America will be the best; people will follow. They are already following-skyscraper building, that’s all. Any nation in the world, they are all aspiring to have skyscraper buildings. India has done? In Bombay?
  Ramesvara: Yes.

In other words, if America is converted, the rest of the world will follow. Just from reading a transcription, it is impossible to know whether or not Prabhupada’s comment about the devotees gaining world government was seriously meant, but many of his followers certainly took it in that way.

 

However, the thing which Prabhupada most often stresses (e.g. in 760621cr.tor) about the Golden Age is that it is the last chance for humanity to become Krishna conscious, before the evil effect of the age of Kali begins in earnest. This is also his emphasis the two times he writes about this golden age, in his purports to Srimad-bhagavatam 8.5.23 and to Caitanya-caritamrita 3.3.50.

 

3. Looking for a Scriptural Source

 

Now, what is the source of the whole idea of the ten thousand golden years? Allen Ginsberg asked that very question of Srila Prabhupada (690513rc.col):

 

• Allen Ginsberg: Where is all this?
  Prabhupada: Vedic literature.
  Allen Ginsberg: What...?
  Prabhupada: Padma Purana, Puranas.
  Allen Ginsberg: Bhagavata Purana.
  Prabhupada: Bhagavata Purana.

In other words, he seemed to not know the exact source, as is confirmed by his answer to the same question by a disciple several years later (770405r2.bom): “I have heard it, maybe in the Bhagavata”. The alternatives Prabhupada gives are all different scriptures regarded as canonical. Since Gaudiya Vaishnavas take great pride in being a scripturally based movement, and since the Bhagavata Purana is considered the highest authority (see Broo 2003a: 8-10), it should come as no surprise that Prabhupada referred to it.

 

Within the Bhagavata, an anonymous author (source link) identifies verses 11.5.38-40 as foretelling the Golden Age. However, while the verses in question do speak about how even the gods desire to take birth on earth in the age of Kali, the context shows that the verses seek to extol the greatness of nama-sankirtana, congregational praise of Krishna, as the most efficacious form of worship in Kali, or indeed any age. There is nothing in these verses, or in the Bhagavata as a whole, about a Golden Age of ten thousand years.

 

The Padma Purana, the other text Prabhupada mentions, is the most voluminous of all the six Vaishnava Puranas. It is divided into six parts, and contains over 56 000 verses. Searching the whole text would thus be a formidable task! I contented myself with looking for the ten thousand years in the verse index. It indeed lists no less than 11 verses beginning with dasa-varsa-sahasrani, ten thousand years, and two with dasa-varsa-sahasram, a period of ten thousand years. While these verses talk about subjects such as the time different sages spent in meditation, the amount of years a sudra that steals milk from a brahmana’s cow has to suffer as a worm in stool, the years of heavenly enjoyment for one who only eats what he has cooked himself during four months or only sleeps on the ground, they say nothing about a special time within the age of Kali. I have thus not been able to locate the prophecy within the Padma Purana, and neither does anyone else seem to have done so.

 

4. The Prophecy of the Brahma-vaivarta Purana

 

Instead, some of Prabhupada’s followers have found a passage in the Brahma-vaivarta Purana (4.129.49-60), that seems to contain the scriptural source of the Golden Age. I am not aware of this passage having been used in any official ISKCON publications, but it is discussed by ISKCON devotee Stephen Knapp in his book on “Vedic Prophecies” (Knapp 2001: 67) and found on several web pages connected with the movement. The full text is found at (source link), and, with added notes, at (source link). It is referred to as stating that “there will be a 10 000-year golden age in Kali yuga” at the website of the Bhaktivedanta Archives, an official ISKCON project (source link). It is mentioned in a similar way at (source link), the website of an offshoot movement of ISKCON. Since the passage thus seems to be widely regarded as the source of the golden age prophecy, it deserves to be looked at more closely. Below, I will present the Sanskrit for the most important verses, the translation by the unnamed original translator (all web pages above use the same translation), followed by my own comments.

 

• sri-bhagavan uvaca
  50. kaleh pancasahasrani varsani tistha bhutale
  papani papino yani tubhyam dasyanti snanatah “The blessed Lord said: On the earth 5,000 years of kali will be sinful and sinners will deposit their sins in you by bathing.”

This translation contains a major inaccuracy, on which most of the rest hinges. What the Lord here says is not that 5,000 years of Kali will be sinful; rather, he addresses the Ganga river, ordering her to remain (tistha, second person imperative of the verb stha) on earth for 5,000 years. A better translation would thus be: “The blessed Lord said: Remain on earth for five thousand years of Kali. The sinners will give their sins to you by bathing.”

 

• 51. man-mantropasaka-sparsad bhasmibhutani tat-ksanatt
  bhavisyanti darsanac ca snanad eva hi jahnavi “Thereafter by the sight and touch of those who worship me by my mantra, all those sins will be burnt.”

Now, with “thereafter,” the text seems to begin talking about something else, an age beginning after the five thousand years of the Ganga mentioned above. However, looking closer, one notices that there is no such “thereafter” in the text. Instead, it says: “By the touch of those who practice my mantra, by seeing them, or indeed by their bathing, O Jahnavi [Ganga], [those sins] will immediately be burnt into ashes.”

 

Stephen Knapp takes the word man-mantropasaka (practitioner of my name) here to be in the singular, and thus to foretell Srila Prabhupada (Knapp 2001: 67, 72-73). While that is grammatically possible here, later verses (e.g. 4.129.55-57) explicitly use the plural number, even for the same word.

 

The text then goes on to describe more of the glories of such Vaishnavas in verses 4.129.52-58. After that, we arrive at the explicit mention of the ten thousand years, the statement that probably drew the attention of the translator in the first place:

 

• 59. kaler dasa-sahasrani mad-bhaktah santi bhu-tale
  ekavarna bhavisyanti mad-bhaktesu gatesu ca “For 10,000 years of kali such devotees of mine will fill the whole planet. After the departure of My devotees there will only be one varna [outcaste].”

Again, the translator takes liberties with the text to make it fit his agenda. What is it that in this verse particularly describes Prabhupada’s Golden Age? That the devotees will “fill the whole planet.” This verse is quoted as saying that for example in (source link). Unfortunately, that is not what it says: it merely says that there “are” (santi) devotees on earth during ten thousand years.

 

Now, if the anonymous translator would step forward, he might present the following objection: “It is true that I made some small additions to the text, but that was only to make the chronology clearer: first we have 5,000 years of Kali when the Ganga purifies the sinners, and then 10,000 years of the devotees, or what Prabhupada called the Golden Age. This is the inner meaning of the above verses.”

 

It is not. First of all, it is not reasonable. Were there no devotees before ca 1897 CE, when the first 5,000 years of Kali had passed? The date may be conveniently close to Prabhupada’s birth year (1896), but he himself always said that the Golden Age was begun by Lord Caitanya (e.g. in his purport to SB 8.5.23). Secondly, such an interpretation completely neglects the context of the verses given above. They occur at the very end of the Brahma-vaivarta Purana, where the evils of the Kali age are being described. The description given is for the most part similar to those in other Puranas: people will have no regard for their elders, they will not offer any sacrifices to the forefathers, they will be addicted to all kinds of evils, and so on. However, the Purana - as is also common - does present some consolation. A passage in the previous chapter has this to say (BVP 4.128.28):

 

• 28. kaler dasa-sahasrsai mad-arca bhuvi tisthati
  tad-ardhani ca varsanam ganga bhuvana-pavani “During ten thousand years of Kali, my image will stay on earth, and during half of those years, Ganga, the purifier of mankind.”

But what will happen to Ganga at the end of those five thousand years, or rather, what happened to her in 1896? That has been explained earlier on (BVP 2.7.10-12):

 

• 10. kaleh panca-sahasram ca varsham sthitva ca bharate
  jagmus tas ca saridrupam vihaya sri-hareh padam
  11. yani sarvani tirthani kasim vrindavanam vina
  yasyanti sardham tabhis ca harer vaikuntham ajnaya
  12. salagramo harer murtir jagannathas ca bharatam
  kaler dasa-sahasrante yayau tyaktva hareh padam “

And having stayed for five thousand years of Kali in India, they [the holy rivers] will give up their forms as rivers and return to the abode of Sri Hari. Being ordered, all the holy places - except Kasi and Vrindavana - will also go together with them to Hari’s Vaikuntha. At the end of ten thousand years of Kali, the Salagrama, Hari’s image and Jagannatha will give up India and go to the abode of Hari.”

 

SB 8.5.23p

When KRSNa appeared, He gave His orders, and when KRSNa Himself appeared as a devotee, as SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu, He showed us the path by which to cross the ocean of Kali-yuga. That is the path of the Hare KRSNa movement. When SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu appeared, He ushered in the era for the saGkIrtana movement. It is also said that for ten thousand years this era will continue. This means that simply by accepting the saGkIrtana movement and chanting the Hare KRSNa mahA-mantra, the fallen souls of this Kali-yuga will be delivered. After the Battle of KurukSetra, at which Bhagavad-gItA was spoken, Kali-yuga continues for 432,000 years, of which only 5,000 years have passed. Thus there is still a balance of 427,000 years to come. Of these 427,000 years, the 10,000 years of the saGkIrtana movement inaugurated by SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu 500 years ago provide the opportunity for the fallen souls of Kali-yuga to take to the KRSNa consciousness movement, chant the Hare KRSNa mahA-mantra and thus be delivered from the clutches of material existence and return home, back to Godhead.

Maybe it is to you, but this quote is from a Bhaktivedanta purport, not a direct sastric verse. Bhrigupada's scholarly essay makes it clear that the so-called scriptural support from the Brahma-vaivarta Purana is quite ambiguous, and even questionable. In my estimation, this is a topic which merits further study and investigation, which is my purpose behind starting this discussion.

Of course, every little bit helps, and I thank you for your valuable input.

Well, I am a highly environmentally-minded individual, and one of my main reasons for being attracted to traditional ideologies like Vaishnavism for instance is the extremely eco-friendly ethos that characterises such beliefs. I certainly laud Al Gore for his documentary - however, people who are positively concerned about climate change and who have reviewed that work state that it does contain certain convenient untruths. Let us all face the fact that if we fail to act at this critical juncture, nothing less than an ecological Waterloo is what shall be dished out to us and our descendents in the not-too-distant future. However, I also think strongly that the brand of alarmism we have had thrusted upon us in recent times is perhaps not the most helpful way to go about it.

Having said this, I don't pretend to have the answer as to what the right approach should be. The subject of this thread, though, is not exactly global warming but something different. I reckon we ought to stick to discussions about the putative golden age with Kali-yuga and enlighten one another with various useful insights regarding this.

Thanks Suchandra. I ignore why I was having problems uploading the text.

For some reason, the text is not appearing here. Pretty bizarre!

You're totally correct. What is there to revere in a cheater, drinker and womaniser? At least Shiva adheres to a semblance of asceticism, even though he is clearly very sex-driven too. As for Rama, well, Valmiki makes it clear that he ate venison whilst it the forest. Aside from this, anyone with a half-a-brain can infer that he regularly hunted from the simple fact that he pursued the so-called golden deer. Running after animals was in all evidence not an unfamiliar act to him. I don't have a problem with this, given that humans are naturally omnivorous and can and should consume non-vegetarian food for their wellbeing and health. But those who claim to be his followers probably would take strong exception to this.

Advaita does not assign sepcial ranks to some Gods over other Gods. All Gods equally represent the one single Brahman. Hence, Advaita rejects the concepts of Vishnu supremacy and Shiva supremacy alike. A tad more mature than sectarian groups, don't you think?

Well said, Shvu. I always think that Vaishnavas are the babies of world theists, because of their characteristic puerile attitude vis-a-vis rival faiths. This, more than anything else, has caused me to dump this false religion, and adopt a more rational and reasonable agnostic stance. My conscience now feels infinitely lighter as a result of this changed, wiser position. It is high time Vaishnavas grew up, as you hinted at in your replies on this thread.

Cheers

Haribol,

 

I'm coming to the discussion late, prabhus, but I wanted to mention Michael Cremo's book The Hidden History of the Human Race. I highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in learning more about evolution and the origins of man. This book is actually a condensed version of his much larger book called Forbidden Archaeology.

 

Jai

Hare Krishna,

I own a copy of FA, Michael Cremo's larger work. It is thought-provoking, no two ways about that, but if you read the reviews of the tome which have been written by the spokespersons of the mainstream scientific establishment, you'll reconsider taking what is contained in it at face value. For a quick, amateurish glimpse into the general reception to Cremo's efforts, just read the response to it on the Amazon online bookstore website. I think that the verdict the public has given of FA is quite damning.

Yes but "arising from" as in that slime actually transforming into life itself as well as completely separate forms which then transform into hundreds and thousands of other forms and on it goes?

How about directed evolution, Theist? Doesn't sound too bad, does it?

In time, many of these ISKCON alternatives will be shown to have their own fair share of bigotry, charlatonism and political battles.

Yes, and where did I say that non-ISKCON Vaishnavas were all squeaky clean? You are right on this one point, and on a few others as well.

Muralidhar, much of what you have to say chimes with me, but I take strong exception to your zealous condemnation of Ananta Vasudeva. He certainly had his weaknesses, like we all do for that matter, but he also had his plus points and did carry out some amazing service. Your analysis is also severely flawed in light on the pronounced ideological slant with which you argue your case.

The WVA may be a political movement for you, but at least Paramadvaiti Maharaja is trying to connect groups and bring people together, which is in stark contrast to others who choose to sit in their own mathas without the ability to gauge the strength that unity can bring. His efforts are being appreciated even by Ramanuja and Nimbarkiya Vaishnavas, let alone the overwhelming majority of Sarasvata communities and a few traditional Gaudiyas whose support he has. To any thoughtful devotee or aspirant bhakta, the work of Paramadvaiti Maharaja is simply sublime.

Just to give audience the other side of the story relating to the devotional career of Ananta Vasudeva, I am posting this material on him, which is a passage from the biography of Srila Krsna dasa Babaji Maharaja, aka Madrasi Baba. Here it goes:

In 1943 he travelled with his son and Haridas to Delhi, where they were invited to attend a series of lectures on Sri Jiva Gosvami's 'Bhakti Sandarbha' given by Puri das Maharaj. It went on for up to five, six hours daily, nearly for a month and a half and continued in Mathura for about twenty days, having originally started in Sri Mayapur at the rate of three classes daily for a period of four and a half months. As a great VaishNava and an accomplished Sanskrit scholar, Puri das Maharaj was lecturing with profound theological sensitivity, finding it almost impossible to check his deep religious emotions, to the point of having his tears completely drenching his chest. At the concluding session he announced that he was relinquishing all of his followers to any of the existing authentic uninterrupted (parampara) Gaudiya Vaishnava hereditary spiritual lineages of which they had the choice to affiliate themselves properly in disciplic succession. He then got married, had a daughter and a son and dedicated the rest of his life in transliterating 62 books of the Vrindavan Gosvamis from Sanskrit to Bengali, publishing them for free distribution to the most important pandits of India.

When Krishna Das and Hari Das returned to Bombay, the latter was transferred by his company (Metro Goldwyn Mayer) to New Delhi, where he assumed the post of assistant manager. He used to spend his weekends together with his wife and son in Mathura. In 1944, Krishna das resigned from his job and also left Bombay to arrive in Mathura, together with his mother, wife and son, on Saturday, 9th of April, at 5.p.m. He was then engaged in receiving visiting pilgrims related to the Gaudiya Math mission at the train station, and to guide them to the different main holy sites of Mathura. Later, by the agency of Hari das he started working for the Metro Goldwyn Mayer cinema in Agra. At the beginning he lived alone in a rented room situated just in front of the cinema, but after finding a bigger residence, his mother, wife and son came from Mathura to live with him. As his residence was far away >from his place of work he reached it by bicycle.

Hari dasa's superiors wanted to promote Haridas to the post of manager of the company, but instead of accepting the promotion he handed in his resignation, rather choosing to entirely dedicate his life to spirituality. He then moved with his family to Mathura, where he assisted Puri das Maharaj as a secretary and private cook. In 1945, as his wife passed away due to tuberculosis, leaving him their small son Narayan, he then married the last of her three younger sisters. In 1946, Krishna dasa's wife also passed away, due to round-worm in Agra's public hospital. The brother of a man whose wife also died in the next bed transported the two corpses with his truck to the Yamuna, where the widowers consecrated them after reciting religious prayers. Having been informed of the bereavement, Krishna dasa's maternal uncle came to Mathura with the idea to take Krishna dasa's son Mukunda with him to Kerala and raise him there, but as his sister was too desparate they decided to leave him in her care. In 1948, after she passed away in Mathura, 6-year old Mukunda was brought to Bombay by his father, from where the maternal uncle took him to Kerala. Krishna das then returned to remain with Puri das Maharaj and assist him in his work. As Puri das Maharaj moved his quarters to Vrindavan Krishna das followed him and started living in Radha Raman Ghera as a neighbour of Vishvambhar and Krishna Chaitanya Gosvamis. This gave him the chance to daily attend the seven arati-ceremonies of Sri Sri Radha Raman. Puri das Maharaj stayed near Sri Sri Radha Raman Mandir for a while and moved to a room in Purushottama Gosvami's residence in Bankicha. During this period, Krishna das and his bosom friend Binay Babu travelled together to visit different sites in Vraja Mandal, like Kedarnath, Badrinath, etc.

In 1951, Puri das Maharaj decided to build a house at Ambika Kalna and entrusted the task to Hari das and Krishna das. They reached the place by train, bought a plot of land near Gauri das Pandit's Gaura-Nitai temple and had the construction work started. Hari das returned to Vrindavan after a few months, but Krishna das remained, continuing to supervise the work. During that period he used to bike almost everyday to Navadvipa and back, and at Ambika Kalna he regularly went and meditated at the samadhi (tomb) of the advanced bhajananandi saint Sri Bhagavan das Babaji. Because he daily read Chaitanya Bhagavat and Chaitanya Charitamrita in Gauri das Pandit's Gaura-Nitai temple room with a few listeners attending, and resided in Bengal, he narurally became familiar with the Bengali language. On one occasion he had the privilege to worship the Gaur Nitai deities for two days, substituting Their priest.

Three years later, in 1954, Krishna das was back in Vrindavan. Then, in 1957, he moved to Barsana, where he lived at different places till 1959, and got the chance to associate with and render some services to the famous advanced saint Srila Sacinandan Das Babaji. Once, as the saint was brooming up and down the main stairs connecting the Larli Lal or Shriji Ka Mandir (the main temple) to the village, he stayed all the way behind him until he finished, so that the attracted crowd might not hamper him. In the meantime Puri das Maharaj passed away in Vrindavana, four days after Gaura Purnima of 1958, and his corpse was brought to Radhakund where he was given a samadhi (tomb). Krishna das lived at the samadhi, located in the vicinity of the local cremation ground, in the company of Sudarshan Das, for nearly four months. During this time he copied Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Thakur's book Sri Prema Samputa out by hand. On Gaura Purnima, 1959, the advanced bhajananandi saint Srila Sakhicaran Das Babaji, who belonged to the hereditary spiritual disciplic lineage of Srila Lokanath Gosvami (the first intimate associate of Lord Gauranga who was the first to be dispatched to Vraja by the Lord, along with Srila Bhugarbha Gosvami, in order to recover the lost holy sites), blessed him with diksha (spiritual initiation).

So internal factions within Iskcon and its sphere of influence, offshoots etc. can continue to quarrel about:

1. guru tattva - mostly rtvik vs. regular guru

2. the origin of the soul

3. the position of Laxmi Narayana relative to Radha Krsna

4. the position of Srila B.V. Swami in relation to his guru and godbrothers

5. the editing of Srila B.V. Swami's books

6. the position of the GBC and local temple management

7. the postion of the Gaudiya Math and its expansions in relation to Iskcon.

AND SO ON, AND SO ON AD FINITUM

They say that Prabhupada's books are the final authority but everyone argues over the interpretations. They say that the GBC is the final living authority but only the new bhaktas really follow and respect the GBC. The GBCs don't really follow their own laws and rules, and mostly don't respect each other and everyone in Iskcon except brand new people knows it. For instance there is no way to stop Satsvarupa Prabhu from writing mundane sex novels and dedicating then to Prabhupada for Iskcon is sunk in scandals the GBC is mirred in deep internal politics.

MEANWHILE THE ISKCON BRANCH OF THE CAITANYA TREE IS BECOMING PARALYZED and they continue to pass stool on the "Gaudiya Math".

So very true to anybody with a brain.

Actually ISKCON isn't totally irrelvant. It is more of an embarassment.

 

The disgrace of world Vaishnavism, to paraphrase. And now with Jayapataka trying to step over the head of the Mayapura dhama-vasis and other Gaudiya societies in order to widen the access to his bogus/counterfeit Adbhuta Mandira, ISKCON will be increasingly viewed by the larger devotee community for what it has mutated into, a sham! As if their relations with the non-ISKCON Vaishnavas were not horrific enough - try asking the sevaites at Radha-Damodara in Vraja that! Like Sripada Narasingha Maharaja said in a recent article, over the years the GBC have succeeded in making ISKCON evolve into nothing less than an apa-sampradaya. I am sure that HDG Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada must be pretty pained by such a pathetic state of affairs.

Indian people are more sympathetic to ISKCON but maybe they are naive.

Well, I'm not. And I know many, many born Hindus who regard ISKCON as an outrageously eccentric cultish sect made up of former hippies and drug abusers. I have myself been able to convince one or two uninitiated Indian/Hindu ISKCON sympathisers to also look outside of it (not quit) for more beneficial sadhu sanga. I did not feel any pleasure in doing that, rather I felt mildly hurt, but I know it was something I had to do for the greater good of the people concerned. This is nothing less than a tragedy, more so because there are without a doubt many extraordinary, humble and non-society conscious bhaktas within ISKCON, and the last thing which is needed is for them to be stifled and constricted because of the impossibly bad leadership.

I do not see why mentioning the inescapable fact that ISKCON today has turned into a pale shadow of the vision that Bhaktivedanta Swami had at his organisation's inception is viewed as offensive to His Divine Grace by the more susceptible among his followers. Facts speak for themselves, and even though a few here are correct to write that other missions and individuals are also not immune to scandals and less than honourable behaviour, it is the arrogant, ignorance-steeped, ego-building indulgence of most ISKCONites to the effect that THEY are Krishna's and Chaitanya's chosen ones that generate the sort of resentment that is frequently noticed in persons who derive their knowledge from other sources.

Srila Vamsi dasa Babaji Ki Jaya

I've spent much time in India in the past three years. I've been in Vrndavan and Govardhana for Kartika and in Mayapur-Nabadwip for Gaura Purnim several times. The Govinda M. and Narayana M. groups are coming close to out numbering Iskcon in regards to Western devotees on pilgrimage. It is quite startling. If you take into account Paramadvaiti M.'s following and some other small Math's then there are definitely more non-Iskcon Western devotees in the holy dhams. When you see these groups up close in India the non-Indian wings appear to be extensions of Iskcon in many ways. For the most part the doctrinal differences are only pertinent to a very small philosophical minority. Its very clear from speaking to some of the devotees in these groups that many of the same things such as the "alternative" ways in which money is acquired have been carried over or borrowed from Iskcon Consequently the Bhagawat says, kalau sudra sambhavah.

I have mentioned the same thing multiple times on other threads. In India, ISKCON's overall share of Vaishnavism was always minimal, and in the last few years, the other Gaudiya missions have overtaken it abroad as well. Over half of Hare Krishna activities outside of India are now conducted mainly by the different Gaudiya Mathas, and to a smaller degree, by the traditional Parivara and Sevaite lines. This trend is set to persist and even snowball in the foreseeable future. As Mahaprabhu's mission floods the entire globe in the coming decades, the proportion of this attributable to ISKCON will continually dwindle. This is an observable fact, and if it does not please some, tough!

Srila Vamsi dasa Babaji Ki Jaya!