Vikram Ramsundar

Well, at least I don't use swear words such as the one your fellow practicing Vaishnava did, and which I quoted in my reply to him. I travel and move in professional circles frequented by educated, professional, upper middle-class persons who could for sure teach you one or two things about social etiquette. And regarding one of the comments (uninvited of course, for it was none of your beeswax in all frankness) you made about what I wrote, I don't consider my statements to be brazen in the least. Keep your faschist dogmas on the issues I mentioned therein to yourself. They only make sense to you and your ilk, not those like myself who live in the real world.

Well, I'm only asking not to be proselytized. I have good relations with several ISKCON members who most definitely share your belief in the descent from Goloka theory. And I also agree with those who choose not to discuss it at length, because that seems to be a reasonable option in my opinion. What I and many others do not appreciate is the fact that you and some others are so bullish about this entire question. You rest confident in your ideas and allow the rest of us the same courtesy. Respect our differing takes on the matter. Pranam

What new could be expected from you, gHari? I wonder if you don't fall asleep when you read your own worthless posts at times. If I were you, I sure would. At least, I have the guts to publicly state what I am. On the other hand, you are a sick, self-righteous, holier-than-thou goody-goody who deserves to be completely ignored and given the silent treatment, nothing less. And that is exactly what I shall proceed to do from now on. Expect no more replies, whether on this thread or any other.

By the way, I have never and will never make use of this abject variety of invective on a spiritually-oriented website, even being the lowly meat-eater and drinker that I am. I am myself continually stunned by the fact that I fare a lot better in the area of manners and etiquette than quite a few "devotees". And it doesn't take a genius to figure out where the majority of those uncouth, boorish oafs come from.

OOP is a joke that is not worth the paper on which it is printed. Be happy in ISKCON. I'd rather slaughter cows for a living rather than suck up to the sleeper-vadis.

My apologies, Sir, I will get down to that when I have a little more time. What I don't understand is why folks who have the audacity to preach to others feel the need to utilise irony, sarcasm and personal insults, whether direct or camouflaged, when they are confronted with material that runs counter to what they have been indoctrinated with. Take the example of gHari. The guy is a total loser, and has nothing positive which could be of help to anybody else. What he excels at is to get on his high horse whenever someone who isn't from his "camp" utters something.

Everyone knows that OOP is the work of Drutakarma first and foremost. Suhotra "Swami" became known as Suhotra Prabhu shortly before his departure from this world, because he "fell" and was forced to give up the sannyasa ashram. He even needed to ask for forgiveness from his so-called disciples for having let them down.

Just some more nonsensical hogwash from a Prabhupada-onlyite. gHari, I don't recall ever reading a single sentence emanating from you on these forums which was worth the time and effort. You are so predictably insipid, boring and dull, like all those of your ilk. Just so you know, these forums are meant for each and every person who has an interest in Hinduism, and every such individual in entitled to use this site in order to gather further information and thereby become slightly wiser, which is precisely what I am doing. And for the record, I am no devotee but a full-blown materialist who happens to have a religious leaning - I eat meat, take alcohol, love going to the horseraces and I intend on continuing to pursue these activities till I kick the bucket. So, whether I advance in bhakti or not is not an issue as far as I am concerned. I'll leave that to God. If ever he wants me near Him, he shall guide me from within so that I can act in a way that enables me to attain Him. I know enough to permit myself to declare that ISKCON won't be that way, though. So, you can keep your suggestions to yourself. I definitely do not require them.

The entire text was pretty compelling for me. And for your information, Bhrigupada is an accomplished Sanskrit scholar, in addition to being a practicing Gaudiya Vaishnava, and I am aware of his work outside of this essay as well. Any careful and attentive intellectual would find his article well-researched and rich in ideas. It's a shame that you didn't, which maybe speaks reams about your IQ and/or level of education. I am a qualified finance professional who slugs his butt away in order to earn a living in the real world, and at the same time, have always felt powerfully drawn to the spiritual philosophy that is delineated in the Vedas and Puranas. I surely have little time for such deplorable sarcasm from some clown who has nothing better than resorting to ironic comments instead of trying to contribute in a real fashion to a debate.

To Beggar, Theist, Murali_Mohan_das and Mahak, I concur with the gist of all your arguments, as those are laden with balance, humility, objectivity and common sense. To Guruvani, I have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised at your change of heart. Your posts now are a far cry from what they were just 5 or 6 months ago when you came down on me so hard for defending the Gaudiya Matha and traditional Parivaras against the typical, standard ISKCON derogatory remarks and petty insults. I had realised that mainstream ISKCON was a non-starter after witnessing first-hand their discriminatory, immature mentality and cultish attitude through frequent association with them. And yes, I am also familar with the useless cabbage leaf called "Our Original Position", written by Drutakarma dasa alias Michael A. Cremo. I am glad that you've altered your tune, otherwise you were a lost case. Good for you. Hari Om and Hari Bol

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For the benefit of readers, I am hereby reproducing the text of Bhrigupada Prabhu's write-up in its entirety, in two parts. Please feel free to comment on what follows. Om tat sat

Maybe it is to you, but this quote is from a Bhaktivedanta purport, not a direct sastric verse. Bhrigupada's scholarly essay makes it clear that the so-called scriptural support from the Brahma-vaivarta Purana is quite ambiguous, and even questionable. In my estimation, this is a topic which merits further study and investigation, which is my purpose behind starting this discussion. Of course, every little bit helps, and I thank you for your valuable input.

Well, I am a highly environmentally-minded individual, and one of my main reasons for being attracted to traditional ideologies like Vaishnavism for instance is the extremely eco-friendly ethos that characterises such beliefs. I certainly laud Al Gore for his documentary - however, people who are positively concerned about climate change and who have reviewed that work state that it does contain certain convenient untruths. Let us all face the fact that if we fail to act at this critical juncture, nothing less than an ecological Waterloo is what shall be dished out to us and our descendents in the not-too-distant future. However, I also think strongly that the brand of alarmism we have had thrusted upon us in recent times is perhaps not the most helpful way to go about it. Having said this, I don't pretend to have the answer as to what the right approach should be. The subject of this thread, though, is not exactly global warming but something different. I reckon we ought to stick to discussions about the putative golden age with Kali-yuga and enlighten one another with various useful insights regarding this.

Thanks Suchandra. I ignore why I was having problems uploading the text.

For some reason, the text is not appearing here. Pretty bizarre!

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-07/editorials1468.htm

You're totally correct. What is there to revere in a cheater, drinker and womaniser? At least Shiva adheres to a semblance of asceticism, even though he is clearly very sex-driven too. As for Rama, well, Valmiki makes it clear that he ate venison whilst it the forest. Aside from this, anyone with a half-a-brain can infer that he regularly hunted from the simple fact that he pursued the so-called golden deer. Running after animals was in all evidence not an unfamiliar act to him. I don't have a problem with this, given that humans are naturally omnivorous and can and should consume non-vegetarian food for their wellbeing and health. But those who claim to be his followers probably would take strong exception to this.

Well said, Shvu. I always think that Vaishnavas are the babies of world theists, because of their characteristic puerile attitude vis-a-vis rival faiths. This, more than anything else, has caused me to dump this false religion, and adopt a more rational and reasonable agnostic stance. My conscience now feels infinitely lighter as a result of this changed, wiser position. It is high time Vaishnavas grew up, as you hinted at in your replies on this thread. Cheers

Hare Krishna, I own a copy of FA, Michael Cremo's larger work. It is thought-provoking, no two ways about that, but if you read the reviews of the tome which have been written by the spokespersons of the mainstream scientific establishment, you'll reconsider taking what is contained in it at face value. For a quick, amateurish glimpse into the general reception to Cremo's efforts, just read the response to it on the Amazon online bookstore website. I think that the verdict the public has given of FA is quite damning.

How about directed evolution, Theist? Doesn't sound too bad, does it?

Yes, and where did I say that non-ISKCON Vaishnavas were all squeaky clean? You are right on this one point, and on a few others as well.

Muralidhar, much of what you have to say chimes with me, but I take strong exception to your zealous condemnation of Ananta Vasudeva. He certainly had his weaknesses, like we all do for that matter, but he also had his plus points and did carry out some amazing service. Your analysis is also severely flawed in light on the pronounced ideological slant with which you argue your case. The WVA may be a political movement for you, but at least Paramadvaiti Maharaja is trying to connect groups and bring people together, which is in stark contrast to others who choose to sit in their own mathas without the ability to gauge the strength that unity can bring. His efforts are being appreciated even by Ramanuja and Nimbarkiya Vaishnavas, let alone the overwhelming majority of Sarasvata communities and a few traditional Gaudiyas whose support he has. To any thoughtful devotee or aspirant bhakta, the work of Paramadvaiti Maharaja is simply sublime. Just to give audience the other side of the story relating to the devotional career of Ananta Vasudeva, I am posting this material on him, which is a passage from the biography of Srila Krsna dasa Babaji Maharaja, aka Madrasi Baba. Here it goes: In 1943 he travelled with his son and Haridas to Delhi, where they were invited to attend a series of lectures on Sri Jiva Gosvami's 'Bhakti Sandarbha' given by Puri das Maharaj. It went on for up to five, six hours daily, nearly for a month and a half and continued in Mathura for about twenty days, having originally started in Sri Mayapur at the rate of three classes daily for a period of four and a half months. As a great VaishNava and an accomplished Sanskrit scholar, Puri das Maharaj was lecturing with profound theological sensitivity, finding it almost impossible to check his deep religious emotions, to the point of having his tears completely drenching his chest. At the concluding session he announced that he was relinquishing all of his followers to any of the existing authentic uninterrupted (parampara) Gaudiya Vaishnava hereditary spiritual lineages of which they had the choice to affiliate themselves properly in disciplic succession. He then got married, had a daughter and a son and dedicated the rest of his life in transliterating 62 books of the Vrindavan Gosvamis from Sanskrit to Bengali, publishing them for free distribution to the most important pandits of India. When Krishna Das and Hari Das returned to Bombay, the latter was transferred by his company (Metro Goldwyn Mayer) to New Delhi, where he assumed the post of assistant manager. He used to spend his weekends together with his wife and son in Mathura. In 1944, Krishna das resigned from his job and also left Bombay to arrive in Mathura, together with his mother, wife and son, on Saturday, 9th of April, at 5.p.m. He was then engaged in receiving visiting pilgrims related to the Gaudiya Math mission at the train station, and to guide them to the different main holy sites of Mathura. Later, by the agency of Hari das he started working for the Metro Goldwyn Mayer cinema in Agra. At the beginning he lived alone in a rented room situated just in front of the cinema, but after finding a bigger residence, his mother, wife and son came from Mathura to live with him. As his residence was far away >from his place of work he reached it by bicycle. Hari dasa's superiors wanted to promote Haridas to the post of manager of the company, but instead of accepting the promotion he handed in his resignation, rather choosing to entirely dedicate his life to spirituality. He then moved with his family to Mathura, where he assisted Puri das Maharaj as a secretary and private cook. In 1945, as his wife passed away due to tuberculosis, leaving him their small son Narayan, he then married the last of her three younger sisters. In 1946, Krishna dasa's wife also passed away, due to round-worm in Agra's public hospital. The brother of a man whose wife also died in the next bed transported the two corpses with his truck to the Yamuna, where the widowers consecrated them after reciting religious prayers. Having been informed of the bereavement, Krishna dasa's maternal uncle came to Mathura with the idea to take Krishna dasa's son Mukunda with him to Kerala and raise him there, but as his sister was too desparate they decided to leave him in her care. In 1948, after she passed away in Mathura, 6-year old Mukunda was brought to Bombay by his father, from where the maternal uncle took him to Kerala. Krishna das then returned to remain with Puri das Maharaj and assist him in his work. As Puri das Maharaj moved his quarters to Vrindavan Krishna das followed him and started living in Radha Raman Ghera as a neighbour of Vishvambhar and Krishna Chaitanya Gosvamis. This gave him the chance to daily attend the seven arati-ceremonies of Sri Sri Radha Raman. Puri das Maharaj stayed near Sri Sri Radha Raman Mandir for a while and moved to a room in Purushottama Gosvami's residence in Bankicha. During this period, Krishna das and his bosom friend Binay Babu travelled together to visit different sites in Vraja Mandal, like Kedarnath, Badrinath, etc. In 1951, Puri das Maharaj decided to build a house at Ambika Kalna and entrusted the task to Hari das and Krishna das. They reached the place by train, bought a plot of land near Gauri das Pandit's Gaura-Nitai temple and had the construction work started. Hari das returned to Vrindavan after a few months, but Krishna das remained, continuing to supervise the work. During that period he used to bike almost everyday to Navadvipa and back, and at Ambika Kalna he regularly went and meditated at the samadhi (tomb) of the advanced bhajananandi saint Sri Bhagavan das Babaji. Because he daily read Chaitanya Bhagavat and Chaitanya Charitamrita in Gauri das Pandit's Gaura-Nitai temple room with a few listeners attending, and resided in Bengal, he narurally became familiar with the Bengali language. On one occasion he had the privilege to worship the Gaur Nitai deities for two days, substituting Their priest. Three years later, in 1954, Krishna das was back in Vrindavan. Then, in 1957, he moved to Barsana, where he lived at different places till 1959, and got the chance to associate with and render some services to the famous advanced saint Srila Sacinandan Das Babaji. Once, as the saint was brooming up and down the main stairs connecting the Larli Lal or Shriji Ka Mandir (the main temple) to the village, he stayed all the way behind him until he finished, so that the attracted crowd might not hamper him. In the meantime Puri das Maharaj passed away in Vrindavana, four days after Gaura Purnima of 1958, and his corpse was brought to Radhakund where he was given a samadhi (tomb). Krishna das lived at the samadhi, located in the vicinity of the local cremation ground, in the company of Sudarshan Das, for nearly four months. During this time he copied Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Thakur's book Sri Prema Samputa out by hand. On Gaura Purnima, 1959, the advanced bhajananandi saint Srila Sakhicaran Das Babaji, who belonged to the hereditary spiritual disciplic lineage of Srila Lokanath Gosvami (the first intimate associate of Lord Gauranga who was the first to be dispatched to Vraja by the Lord, along with Srila Bhugarbha Gosvami, in order to recover the lost holy sites), blessed him with diksha (spiritual initiation).

So very true to anybody with a brain. The disgrace of world Vaishnavism, to paraphrase. And now with Jayapataka trying to step over the head of the Mayapura dhama-vasis and other Gaudiya societies in order to widen the access to his bogus/counterfeit Adbhuta Mandira, ISKCON will be increasingly viewed by the larger devotee community for what it has mutated into, a sham! As if their relations with the non-ISKCON Vaishnavas were not horrific enough - try asking the sevaites at Radha-Damodara in Vraja that! Like Sripada Narasingha Maharaja said in a recent article, over the years the GBC have succeeded in making ISKCON evolve into nothing less than an apa-sampradaya. I am sure that HDG Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada must be pretty pained by such a pathetic state of affairs. Well, I'm not. And I know many, many born Hindus who regard ISKCON as an outrageously eccentric cultish sect made up of former hippies and drug abusers. I have myself been able to convince one or two uninitiated Indian/Hindu ISKCON sympathisers to also look outside of it (not quit) for more beneficial sadhu sanga. I did not feel any pleasure in doing that, rather I felt mildly hurt, but I know it was something I had to do for the greater good of the people concerned. This is nothing less than a tragedy, more so because there are without a doubt many extraordinary, humble and non-society conscious bhaktas within ISKCON, and the last thing which is needed is for them to be stifled and constricted because of the impossibly bad leadership. I do not see why mentioning the inescapable fact that ISKCON today has turned into a pale shadow of the vision that Bhaktivedanta Swami had at his organisation's inception is viewed as offensive to His Divine Grace by the more susceptible among his followers. Facts speak for themselves, and even though a few here are correct to write that other missions and individuals are also not immune to scandals and less than honourable behaviour, it is the arrogant, ignorance-steeped, ego-building indulgence of most ISKCONites to the effect that THEY are Krishna's and Chaitanya's chosen ones that generate the sort of resentment that is frequently noticed in persons who derive their knowledge from other sources. Srila Vamsi dasa Babaji Ki Jaya

I have mentioned the same thing multiple times on other threads. In India, ISKCON's overall share of Vaishnavism was always minimal, and in the last few years, the other Gaudiya missions have overtaken it abroad as well. Over half of Hare Krishna activities outside of India are now conducted mainly by the different Gaudiya Mathas, and to a smaller degree, by the traditional Parivara and Sevaite lines. This trend is set to persist and even snowball in the foreseeable future. As Mahaprabhu's mission floods the entire globe in the coming decades, the proportion of this attributable to ISKCON will continually dwindle. This is an observable fact, and if it does not please some, tough! Srila Vamsi dasa Babaji Ki Jaya!