Priitaa

I get confused about preaching because I was reading that people that know about Krishna but do not preach are condemned by Prabhupada but at the same time you are not supposed to preach to people that don't want to hear it are you? I try to mention even some of this stuff to my family members and they sometimes get mad so I give up preaching, is that alright? I don't preach about Krishna to them I just try to get them to follow regulative principles if at all possible.

 

 

Haribol prabhu,

Here is my understanding, for whatever its worth. Prabhupada wanted us to preach, but first save yourself. A drowning man can't save another drowning man.

After that, I don't know that he said those who don't preach are condemned, tho I think he may have suggested certain types of nonpreachers are sometimes selfish, but since I dont have a quote on hand I can't say for certain.

It is correct, however, that we should not preach to those who don't want to hear. Matter of fact, we could be causing them to make an offense. In which case, the best preaching (for them) may be no preaching.

Sometimes it is less effective to preach about the regulative principles than it is to preach about Krishna, tho its all individual. But in an age where abortion is aceptable, meat eating is the norm, celebrating Christmas (or religious holidays) with wine or intoxicants as the method, many hear the 4 regs and think we are fanatics. Rupa Goswami has explained if we can simply help people develop some 'shadow' attachment for Krishna, we can explain the rules later. I often focus on love of God, and how beautiful He is, that God is blue and plays a flute, and how His love is unconditional, etc. These are just suggestions, cuz I realize there are some out there who do respond to the 4 regs, just that they are getting fewer and fewer in numbers.

I also wish to clarify, my definition of 'preaching' is 'sharing' Krishna with others.

Moving on, for those who appear to be open, we can gently preach. Sometimes they switch tracks in mid-stream, sometimes they dont. How can you tell? Often you can't! Merely, the point at which you do figure it out, that is when to stop the preaching. If you can then say something you both agree on, thats nice. If not, at least to stop before they become too angry or irritated.

There is no fool proof formula here, except one. When we sincerely try, even if we mess up (by accident) Prabhupada protects us. As does Krishna. There is a verse in the Gita where Krishna says for His deovtee, He carries what they lack, and preserves what they have. So we just keep sincerely trying, maybe take a break, then try a new method again, or return to the old one if it is workable.

Also, there are a variety of forms of preaching. Its not always face to face wihch we should do. I was horrid on sankirtana! And I didnt like it either. It stressed me out, yet to this day I still I wish it did not, and that I had that ability. But reality is, I'm lousy on skp. However, I discovered I did well in correspondence. This lead to various fields of preaching at different times during my devotional life. My English grammar may not be so great (I know it Babru, I know it ha), but somehow or other my communicative abilities get the message through. Find your nitch, what you are good at it, then use it in Krishna's service.

Crimal,

Almost forgot, it is possible you are depressed. Whether it be from genetics or merely having to deal with such stressful situations since childhood. I don't know enough about this topic to much give advice, though I do know there are herbs and such you can take that offer some real benefit. Also, to maybe consider a talk doctor, or else self help books on it that aren't gibberish but genuinely helpful.

Crimal,

I am sorry to hear all that has happened to you, especially the recent loss of a job! My, the material world can be cruel.

Without a job, there is no roof over ones head, no food, no nothing. I don't mean to sound like one of those fanatics who see absolutely every single bad thing (or reversal) as a 'blessing' from God and as something good. However, maybe at least once in a while we can try to locate the good in such a reversal as you have experienced. What I am getting at is, maybe you really are being directed by the Lord to move into a temple. Its certainly better than homeless, and even if you decide ashrama life is not for you over a period of time, at least you will get into the devotee world more, and you would be surprised at the doors that open for you once you learn how to open them or where they are located!

Matter of fact, I thank you, because you just helped me remember this for myself; how much I appreciate this! I dont know what I would do without the deovtees, even the annoying ones. LOL We all need each other, and various devotees can offer you various opportunities you would never have thought possible. I am speaking from experience, having been there. At one of my most diffcult times in life it was the temple that helped me out. I don't claim it was the perfect situation, and I dont claim ISKCON is free of problems, but it was an important stepping stone that without, I honestly can't begin to imagine how bad everything could have gotten for me. I am so thankful Prabhupada created this movement. It is my family, for better or worse. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have saved this thread as a 'favorite.' I don't want to lose this wonderful information! Thank you, and feel free to post more if you have more on hand.

yes, i cannot judge any devotional position but i think that it is a great realization.. TECNICAL... we are requested to do well our duties, to express in this way the desire to go back to godhead.. then the spiritual master gives the realization, the skills, the drarshan of sri krishna... we are not able to achieve ever a little bit of real and experienced krsna consciousness, we can only desire.. and also the desire is a blessing of guru and gauranga, because the maximum we can do is desire to desire..

 

 

Haribol Yasodanandana prabhu,

Yes, I get what you are saying. My understanding of the story is that Prabhupada expected us to do our very best, to give it our all, and to be honest about this - then if we still only came up to 60% Krishna consciousess, under such circumstances we would be saved by his mercy.

I think we are in agreement here. :-)

Babru,

You make a good point. Tho I said it was hung up (or something like that) in the ashrama when I was a brahmacarini. A few years ago I asked a devotee online for that quote, as they said they had it. This was before I had the folio, and they sent it to me as you see it. I trusted them. You may be correct tho, that it was not all together as one unit, but it was common for deovtees to say that way. If its not 100% bona fide, I wonder why they repeated it as if it were.

I haven 't done a search, but will take your word for it that its not in the VedaBase. Tho I also saw a slide show once where that (entire) quote was in included in the pic, but yes I realize someone could have just put it like that. It doesn't really matter to me if it is all together or not because it is just a nice spiriutal saying that I find inspiring. The degree that preaching has gone down the drain is something I find disturbing, so for me this quote is quite helpful.

Well, if this is a 'Ramesvara uvaca' ha I would have to think about it further, yet I wouldn't want to assume he wasn't telling the truth. He had his set of problems, but I would hope he didn't outright lie about actual quotes from Prabhupada. That is, I hope if he said he heard Prabhupada say it, that he really did hear Prabhupada say it. Who would lie about such a thing? Imagine the karma!

I am glad you brought this to my attention though. I confess I may keep it by my computer as I have been. Admittedly I've become attached, therefore would like to make sure if its not bona fide as one quote. Maybe later I will do a folio search, I just don't feel like pulling up that program right now. (My comp gets clogged up fast.)

P.S. Same for the lawbooks for the next 10,000 years? Are you sure? Ok, you're sure. Well, now I am REALLY going to have to do a folio search.

Yasodanandana,

While posting to you, this story came to mind. Tho its not word per word, so I can only go from memory.

It was at RathaYatra. Prabhuapda was in front of some steps. He said even if you don't achieve 100% Krishna consciousness, if you become only 90% Krishna consciouss, you will still go back to Godhead. Then he stepped down one step.

The devotees got excited or hopeful, and someone asked, "What about 80% Prabhuapda?" So Prabhuapda went down another step and said if you become 80% Krishna conscious, you still can go back to Godhead."

Getting more hopeful devotees, the rascals that we are ha, asked, "Prabhupada, what about 70 %? Can we go back if we are only 70%? And Prabhuapda stepped down yet another step and replied that yes, even if we achieve only 70% Krishna consciousness, we shall go back to Godhead.

Then the deovtees, well you guessed it. "Prabhuapda, what if we only become 60%?" And surprisingly Prabhupada stepped down yet another step and told them even if they become only 60% Krishna conscious, they can go back to Godhead.

Now the devotees just can't help themselves as you know ha, and asked "What about 50%?" But Prabhupada stopped and said no, that we must at least become 60% Krishna conscious.

The way I figure it, in highshcool 60% is a "D." ha Not the best grade, but 'technically' passing. So most of us can achieve a D, coupled with the mercy of Srila Prabhupada, go back Home. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Anyhow, I thought that was a cute story.

Prasadam? It sounds good! Send some this way. ha

Oh prabhu, I think we all have this problem, :-) We simply gotta keep on truckin and at the time of death, we have a darn good chance of making it. I have little faith in myself, but as a devotee once told me, its about Prabhupada, that I may mess up, but he will save me. I dont know. I think he will take one look and throw me back lol, but their point was, by his mercy we are saved.

Oh, and happy new years to you and yours as well.

Yasodanandana,

What 'time' is it over there in Italy now? You are up awfully late, aren't you? Then again, it could be me, up too early. ha

You should know that a soul would not be reincarnated at once after the flesh's death. It may stay in the death realm for the period of dif. length from several days to thousands of years. You need to underst. chap. 8 anew. Notice "fire" & "smoke".

 

 

I am not clear if you are referring to when we repeatedly reincarnate or if you are indicating it also applies to those who chant and therefore go back to Krishna at the time of death, so please pardon any misunderstandings I may have here. With that said, regarding reincarnation this is true. But if one is fortunate to go back to Godhead, Prabhupada says it takes less than a second, you simply say "Hare Krishna" and you are there. I have the quote if anyone wants it.

Regarding the first question of astrology and the Gita (or lack of mention about it), astrology is merely a chart of our karma. When we start chanting Hare Krishna we are ridding ourselves of karma faster then we could even begin to imagine! The more we chant, the more karma flees. I have many quotes on this too, if anyone wants them as well. Its a fact.

Sometimes we are not so pure, or we have one foot in each world, or we think we are pure but are not dealing with our emotional garbage thinking they are simply material when they are also spiritual anarthas, etc., etc., etc. For whatever reason, we sometimes are materially effected, therefore by obtaining a chart by an honest astrologer who can gently but truthfully point out the areas we need to work on, in that way astrology can help us.

Additionally, this is the difference between western astrology and eastern of Jyotish. Actually, Jyotir is part of the Vedic literatures, and so it is spiritual astrology.

My understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that most pure Vaishnavas since the time of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu either become gosthananandis or bhajananandis.

 

 

Haribol Bhakta Dan,

I am not commenting on your point above, but a different one - somewhat. Prabhupada actually criticized those who are bhajananandi's because they did not preach, did not share Krishna with others.

Regarding devotees getting involved in politics, I have no problem with those who are so inclined. Simply we first must achieve a level of purity. One may not have achieved pure devotee status cent per cent, but they must live a very regulated as well as strict life, especially if they are going to be associating with mundane politicians, most who live a questionalbe lifestyle at best. In any case, the Vedic system only allowed the qualified to hold a goverment positions, as you know. And those who were in politics always took instruction from the brahman priests, surrendering or gaving up their own ideas for those of the brahmanas in most cases.

Yes, Prabhupada renounced his political interests in Mahatma Ghandi due to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta instructions on the matter. Politics come, politics go, issues repeat themselves. The temporary nature of this world is minimized by us human beings, thinking we shall live forever. Tomorrow we could walk in front of a truck (etc) and die. To finally be granted the human form is rare. We need to be careful not to waste it. If we aren't serious in our Krishna consciousness, any political gains will have been of little use, if any, as they are merely a symptom of the material world. The only permanent way out of that requires spiritual energy.

One of my favorite quotes is something we use to say in the ashrama, from Prabhupada of course.

Preaching is the essence.

Purity is the force.

Books are the basis.

Utility is the principle.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

That's really nice. I wish I could think a little bit more like that. I always feel ripped off for not being able to live in a temple.

 

 

What a sweet sentiment! I apprecaite how you feel about ashrama life. But it also has it rough side.

I am not sorry I lived in the ashrama though. Matter of fact, am very thankful it happened for me. It was not always so easy though. The physical austerities I could omstly handle, it was the mental trips many pulled that I would never want to go though again. Yet when I read of a new devotee, I do feel the temple training I recieved is where I get my strength from, and so I do wish it for everyone. I'm not sure though, how. That is, I feel there should be some adjustments made, or in truth, to return it to the real method Prabhupada had set up. But in this age of kali yuga there is no perfect situation, so I'm glad I got what I got.

For those who can't move in, I would suggest trying to speand as many overnights as possible. Weekends and such. That way you at least undergo some of the basic training we got. It 'does' pay off. And with study of Prabhupada's books, you can pick from the temple experiences what correlates with them and what does not. We've all got enough intelligence to do that at least to a degree.

Though you may not be able to even spend week ends, etc., but thought I'd throw the idea out there. Good luck! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Started to read your posts… I'm glancing through them, but I see more of the same rhetoric. Sorry, but I think y'all have no idea what you're are talking about.

 

 

Maybe if I didn't need to make the same point to you over and over, if you stopped aruging Prabhuada's highest teachings, trying to find angles around them, or where you make comments like devotees who are chanting Hare Krishna are irresponsible and letting the world go to hell, I wouldn't have to repeat them, or as you say, be so "rhetorical."

Women (meant to seduce…dictate and bewilder) …and the men who act like them?

 

 

That's a sexist comment if ever I heard one. Then again, if you think you're your body, that would explain it.

That you included something in favor of women to so-call balance it out, does not make it justifiable. Sounds like the "good 'ol boys club" is showing up. There's one way to keep women away from this thread.

Oh, NOW you decide not to read them. LOL If they were all into what you're into, you'd read them alright. ha But Ok, thats no problem. I'm not attached.

But opionated? I use to hear back in the 70s from the nondevotees how all devotees are opionated because they strictly believe in Prabhupada. These days its not uncommon for devotees to say it, but I guess I did not expect that you would. So if my firm belief in the words of Prabhuapda, my jagat guru, are opionated, so be it.

Bhakta Dan,

I read your reply and am in total agreement with all you said. So, nothing more for me to comment in via your post. But for the last paragraph. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I doubt Paztriot and I will ever strike a balance, because I see Prabhupadas words and method as the absolute truth. While Paztriot is favorable toward Srila Prabhupada, it appears to me he thinks he has some better plan or preaching method, as well as where to place the preaching focus too. Thus, the twain shall never meet. But at least we are not enemies - anymore. LOL

Paztriot,

1) Tactics or strategy, none are being used. If you consider it being here for "all to see," its message boards for gosh sakes. lol Of course all will see. You are doing no different yet I do not accuse you of any tactics.

2) I do not see how, as you say, that we both agree. Egos are not automatically involved when two people disagree; and you can only speak for yourself there. lol (joke) With that said, we differ in the fact that I say there is absolutely no need to get politically involved in the world, that the nondevotees will take care of all of that for us. You say otherwise.

3) Yes, one can preach and make vegetarians or politicians devotees. But to look at it the angle you have, "is that whats happening?" is to change the topic. This is what I mean about how you are very attached to political points. So I really am not trying to get you ticked off, but simply trying to point out that this is an attachment to politics that you bring in at every angle. Which I undrestand but I also recognize it for what it is, as I have explaiend I 'could' do this too since I too have an interest in politics. But I dont, because I recognize it as sense gradificaiton of the mind.

4) To my comment: "My point is in line with shastra… " You respond: I believe your point is that we should concentrate on spreading KC and not get into politics, etc." However, my point in that particular paragraph was in relationship to inquiring about purity of one who criticizes others or wants to instruct them as if an authority. (Scroll up and reread if necessary to see what I wrote in context.) Therefore looking at yoru purity isn't based on what 'I' think is "true," but on what the Vedas find as true, which starts with Prabhupada's ABC's that one must first at least be living a relatively pure lifestyle or at least be able to properly repeat Prabhupada's instructions without changing them, before they themselves can even start instructing others.

I am not interested in looking at your purity personally, or for any mundane social or emperical reasoning, nor at your position. Tho I am interestied in getting YOU to look at your purity. And yes, you may say you all ready have. True. But my point is, if you do not feel pure, and if like Thiest who you use for an example, one should not speak of some of the things we do speak of here or you do not feel very qualified, then how can you talk as if you are an authority on such topics? Instead we should be focusing on 'becoming' more qualified. Nor am I saying that I am so pure, but I get to give the opinions I have - not based on my purity or lack thereof, but on Prabhupadas instructions because it is Prabhupada who is pure. If we try to change his program or instructions, that is the beginning of the end. This is also why everything should be able to be backed up by a quote. Incidentally, it was Prabhupada who placed importance on purity before speaking or instructing. One need not be perfect to preach, but they should not be hiding it either. (Not saying go public). The point is, they preach what Prabhupada wanted preached.

Now, I am not trying to single you out. You sort of did that yourself when you started to make negative comments to everyone who disagreed with you. :-) Sorry, but thats how I see it.

5) I ignored your comment on '30 years and counting' because, as explained, its changing the topic from spritual to politicial. Unless you can show me otherwise, its back to politics. It also can be used as an excuse to avoid doing our own preaching, following better ourselves and fixing ourselves. If we can point out whats wrong with the movement we can keep the focus off whats wrong with ourselves AND we can drag it back to that mental sense grat of the mind and politics. Not saying anyone should go public with personal anarthas, just that if we are talking about politics here, we think about them alot, therefore do not tend to our own gardens very well.

6) I have no problem with people appreciating spiritual perspectives on modern events. Its a form of preaching and I use it too. It is a different topic (again). My point is that amongst ourselves, we should preach the highest, we should know the highest. After all, you did say in one of your posts (sorry, I dont have the exact quote but scroll up or back) that if we do not get involved in politics then we are irresponsible. Whereas I understand that we are fully responsible if we take to Krishna consciousness, need not get into politics, stopping WWIII with sound vibration should not be viewed as something that can not happen again cuz times have changed, etc. To view it as "only" chanting Hare Krishna whlie the "world goes to hell" means you underestimate or else don't understand the power of the Holy Names.

7) Yes, there are many filthy skp devotees who did not and do not preach right. Not news to me. But that too is another topic, and once again, politics. Just cuz they messed up is no excuse for us to not preach. I am speaking of how Prabhupada wanted us to preach. I am never speaking of all this filth you seem to focus on. Funny, you say I see what I WANT to see, but the way you drag everything back to the political perspective, it appears to me that YOU see what you want to see. I know - this becomes rhetorical.

8) When Prabhupada made scathing observations and social commentary, the *purpose* of that was to spread pure Krishna consciousness. He almost always brought them full circle too. I would say always, but there may be an exception I have not read. However, its close to always. So he did not leave it there at material politics, but used their interesst to 'dovetail' it and bring around to transcendental Krishna consciousness.

9) Purity has nothing to do with maintaining a reputation. From filthy skp devotees, bogus iskcon leaders, aroti etc as mere rituals, and now purity as reputation - you are seeing all these from political persepctives. Therefore one can rationalize, why do them if they are all material in these ways that others who did them failed? But that philosophy wont help any of us get back to Godhead. Which of course, as you finally touched on, is the reason for purity - to achieve Krishnaloka and not personal reputation.

By the way, dont act like you are above keeping a reputation. Posting the responses you have is to create or maintain a specific type of reputation. :-) So no one is above reputation, but real purity is not about this at all, and that is merely the point I am trying to convey.

You say there are many pepole now and in the past who had such purity, yet ruined what Prabhuapda created. First, I say they did not have such purity since they ruined what Prabhuapda did. And again I say this is making politics more powerful and more important than transcendental Krishna consciousness.

10) I do not fear this reducing to name calling. I do not do that, so unless you feel that may be your knee jerk reaction, I see no reason why we cant have a sane, calm, philosophical discussion. Not that I want it to continue. LOL Just that if it does, I dont name call.

11) I am glad you found a way to preach that fits your nature, which you believe in, and 'you' find has 'potential.' Though you make it sound like all the methods of the past did not work and you've got something better. I all ready stated I agree many did not properly follow the methods right, but there are those who did. And even if they didn't, its Prabhupadas methods therefore they always work. Most of us would not be here if they didn't!

Please dont think you have the grand answer, or are the only one trying to spread Krishna consciousness. Many are preaching, in varigated ways. I have my program too, and while I sometimes put up a post to promote it, really not so often. Mostly I come here for devotee association and not to promote what I am doing. So I guess what I am saying is that I recognize deovtees get into this "missionary" consciousness at times, and I have fallen prey to it as well, but we need to check ourselves and not think we are doing better than anyone else.

~~~

I do appreciate your more gentle reply this time, and I agree you and I will probably never agree. It would be nice, however, if you would just admit your very into politics, both of iskcon and of the world. This is I think where we differ. The rest, we probably agree on. But how to achieve the goal - we clearly differ on.

P.S. If I left anything out, I did not ignore it, I felt it was covered above or previously. If you feel I ignored anything, let me know and I will give two cents worth.

ROFL LOL lol Good to read jokes since I have insomnia. Thanks for the humor.

I've seen tests like this, but have never understood how a psychologist decides that a certain element in the story means something.

 

 

Thank you for saying this. I agree. They can only create such a test based on what they themselves recognize as life experiences, which are far from spiriutal, and even materially limited. I dont believe in this test, but it can be fun.

.

I saw one of the F's in one of the "Of" words, but guess I decided the rest were just carbon copies and not worth a repeat. ha So that's a total of four on the first try. The second time after reading their were six, I saw them, but not on the initial counting. Anyway, am surprised I got even the one extra, considering the brain doesn't process the word "of." Am impressed tho, with those who got more. However and not thinking any lesser of those who got 3 so they better not either. As a woman in the movement, I've been down that road! ha And its bogus anyway.

Haribol prabhu,

I'm not one to s usually, just cuz its time conuming and I have a slow comp. Maybe I'll come back later and check it out, since you mentioned its your site.

But I understand you are using a different definition of the word 'addiction.' Sometimes deovtees have joked like that. "Oh, I am addicted to this service!" ha Or, "I am addicted to this cool HariNama chaddar." And yes, even "I am addicted to the Maha Manatra and Krishna." This kind of addiction, we want. But the nondevotees, were they to hear, they would not understand, due to the actual definition of the word. So maybe amongst ourselves it is ok, simply around others we must watch what we say.

P.S. If you want to put it on your site, I think that is ultimately up to you and how it makes you feel. If you feel good about it then fine, if unsure, then pay attention to that. Or maybe just need to add a footnote, or addition of some sort. But you will know what works for you as a preacher.

The article is biased ... Why only men are singled out ? What about the receipents, i.e., the so-called stronger sex- women ? What impact has it on them ? We have not come across any women dying or expiriong after sex! In fact, as per sexologists, women experience multiple orgasms! Agreed sex act expends a lot of calories (and nothing more) and therefore a good exercise for the general well being and health of teh body.Continenece produces brainy or genuis people is also unfounded!

So please do not malign sex in name of spiritulaism or any otehr philosopy of yours!

 

VISWAKARMA

 

 

I am not going to get into the details on this, especially being the only woman commenting! However, I do agree both sides should be presented. Briefly:

1) Even woman are exhausted afterwards, so it drains them also. I dont know about falling over dead, but in reality not too many men are falling over dead either.

2) The adrenals are especially effected, and without strong adrenals no one can function in day-to-day life very well becaues adrenals are the main source of energy. While some youngins' may not relate to this, after 40 its all downhill and women are no exception. Therefore celibacy benefits both genders, and no sense wearing the body down prematurely.

2b) I'd have to add as part of the last one, all or most organs, or rather the endocrine system is being worked HARD during sex, therefore it is not limited to the adrenals being drained. They all are. And now you know why both genders fall asleep afterwards! With age, sleep does not bring sufficient rejuvination. Much can't be seen but there is invisible wear and tear on the body, even of women, when there is sexual indulgence.

Maybe someone can find some scientific studies on the benefits of celibacy for women.

wow, You're fast. lol I was just editing my reply, as I thought of that too, so added it. Then you posted the question. So reread my last post, as its a bit different now.

Q) Is the Hare Krishna mantra addictive?

A) Gosh, I hope so! ha

Seriously tho, in the sense of a real addiction, I doubt it. That would put it in the category of brainwashing (something I just posted about!), which it is not.

I do agree tho that many gave up drugs to chant Hare Krishna, but I think that has been misunderstood. In the west no one knew about Krishna or much anything eastern. Left on their own, they turned to drugs to elevate their consciousness. It was sort of an, all be it wrong, way to look for God. Once they found God/Krishna through the mercy of Srila Prabhupada, they were easily able to renounce drugs - because they weren't really addicted to drugs, but searching for God in a way their fundamental, hell fire and brimstone churches could not offer.

If you are experiencing a desire to chant more, that is a spiriutal increase, not a form of intoxication. Count your blessings, cuz its often a gift from Krishna, to give us a taste. Then its gone and we have to work for it. Oh, it returns intermittently, but especially in the beginning, He often gives us this nice little "welcome" present.

Crimal,

I find you make some good points, tho I feel its relative to a persons individual situation. For you, and when I was younger for me, there may have been concern that someone may have viewed us as 'brainwashed' or did not like our devotion. Now that my main family is no longer my parents, and I have even raised teenagers, brainwashed is not the slightest bit of an issue. Even when I had a rebellious teenager, there was recognition of being part of Prabhupada's extended family. Its simply how they were raised, that Krishna is God and this is Who they worship. I felt too with this gentleman who posted, since he is Hindu as is his wife, that, as well as devotion, is not an issue, but finding ways to go about it wich his wife is drawn to. Just my opinion. Oh yes, and I find you make other good points that, while tempted to comment on, they are too many. Thanks!