Baobabtree

 

Nope

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> TRANSLATION BG 18.59

If you do not act according to My direction and do not fight, then you will be falsely directed. By your nature, you will have to be engaged in warfare.</td></tr></tbody></table>

How is this verse contrary to what I said. Isn't Krishna stating it is his nature to preform a kshatriya's dharma?

 

I don't know if there is an online translation but basically it says that among devas Vishnu is highest and Agni lowest, all others are in between. This refutes the "all gods are the same god" idea that many neo-advaitins have.

 

Thanks and Pranams to you. I'm curious to know what you think the proper translations for this veres is-

46 They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuṇa, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutmān.

To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Mātariśvan.- Rig Veda 1:164:46

(however this topic really doesn't have to do with the subject of hiw varna should be determined. Perhaps we should start another thread to continue this conversation).

 

If you don't accept the supremacy of Vishnu that how do you reconcile your position with RV 1.22.20?

As I have stated before I'm no Sanskrit scholar, but Ralph Griffith translates this verse as

 

 

20 The princes evermore behold that loftiest place where Viṣṇu is,

Laid as it were an eye in heaven.

How does this verse affirm he alone is the supreme deity. Also, I'm unable to find an online translation of the Aitreya Brahmana, would you mind posting the verse you cited?

 

I have NEVER been to an ISKCON mandir...But I now live away from home and would just LOVE to go....

The one small problem is that I'd be by myself and I don't know what to expect:(

I have heard about how welcoming the devotees are...But have no clue what to expect when I go down there.

Any help would be so appreciated...I've waited so very long to truly express my devotion openly to Krishna, and I just cannot wait......My heart is absolutely bursting with love for Krishna, and my love keeps growing with each passing day!

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Pranams to you Bloominglotus.

 

I too come from a non-Hindu family, so I know how odd it can feel attending a mandir for the first time. Once you enter the temple, you should bow down in front of every deity in the sanctum and offer a small prayer like "Om Kleem Krishnaya Namaha", starting counterclockwise from the entrance of the room. Some mandirs also have certain times, where people all come together to sing bhajans (the mandir I attend does this) for a period of time, and all mandirs do daily aartis. So, see if you can find out when bhajans in large groups or aartis are preformed.

 

I should note that in addition to ISKCON mandirs, Lord Sri Krishna is happily worshiped and propogated at other Hindu mandirs, so don't shy away from visiting either ISKCON or standard Hindu mandirs.

 

Again, Pranams to!

That's exactly what I said How do you feel about Shridi Sai Baba, Indulekha Ji and Baobabtree? From what I know of his teachings (which is admittedly very little), I like him.

I believe he was an avatar.

 

There are numerous references throughout the smritis that either directly or indirectly support a social hierarchy. But there is no point in quoting them if you are going to arbitrarily reject whatever you don't like. The question is on what basis do you limit yourself to just certain texts? Why is mahAbhArata acceptable but dharma-shAstras or bhAgavatam not? Merely because you like one and not the other won't cut it.

Why don't you accpet Shiva Purana, or Kulachudamani Tantra? Because, you are a Sri Vaishnava. Though, at the moment I don't really belong to any specific sect, my views regarding the hiearchy of deities, is similar to the view Smartha's have. Therefore, I tend to reject Vaishnava texts like Bhagavatam, Vishnu Purana or Manu Smriti which hold Vaishnava views in regards to diety hierarchy (that Vishnu is supreme, and all other deities are demi-gods). There are others I simply have not studied yet at all, thus I don't really reject them, but I am ignorant of them, and therefore can't say I really accept or believe in them.

 

 

What about Arjuna? What about Ajamila? Or the brAhamanas who were offended by NRga mahArAja? Or Drona? Or AshvathAma?

I would think this indicates that these individuals stayed in the castes in which they were born.

 

 

Arjuna's nature was compassionate and forgiving. He was ready to give up fighting which was not consistent with the behavior of a kshatriya, as Krishna Himself stated in gItA 2.2-3, 2.31-33. Thus, when Krishna was rejecting his self-promotion to brahminical renunciation, He was doing so not on the basis of Arjuna's attitude of renunciation but rather on the basis of Arjuna's status as a kshatriya, which was based on his birth. Arjuna did not cease to be a kshatriya because he refused to fight and wanted to be non-violent.

It appears clear to me that Arjuna wished to cease fighting, due to the fact he might have to slay his friends and relatives, not because he was trully inclined to become a brahmin, and of a non-violent nature (which even then a brahmin should give up, during such wars where violence and not absolute pacifism are neccesarry).

 

There is no bases in Shastra, infact Krishna warns us against it as Raghu has already mentioned which I repost here

 

What about individuals like Valmiki? Why are we to assume, they are an exception to how varna is usually determined?

 

 

It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one's nature are never affected by sinful reactions.

The very term nature (which I admit might be an incorrect translation) would seem to indicate something along the lines of individuals qualities.

 

 

Why did Lord Krishna say it was Arjuna's nature to fight? And that too despite Arjuna offering to give up everything and take to begging? Because Arjuna was born a kshatriya and he was obligated to follow kshatriya dharma. Arjuna did not get promoted to brahmin status because of his compassion for his family.

 

Because it would be wrong of him to become a beggar, based on his uneasy attitude towards fighting his family members. Non-violence can only be maintained to certain level. If Arjuna and the other warriors had chosen ahsima over fighting, the Kauravas would have unrightfully kept the throne of Hastinapura, and in doing so, would have thrown the world into despair, and slain many inoccent people. Not to mention Arjua still had the nature of a kshatriya, his unease was due to the fact he had to fight his family, instead of men not related or well known to him. He couldn't renounce his varna and its dharma based upon this.

 

 

What we think is of no consequence even today if you went to a village we will find different quarters for each varna,that is how vedic society worked, so my point was how would you accommodate different family members it is just not practical.

Where is this strict segregation mentioned in The Vedas, Upanishads or Mahabharata?

 

 

No more than that, family tradition like raghukul rit chali aiyi

Kula means lineage, race, family etc. which is more or less ones varna

Wouldn't this instead indicate something more like an individuals gotra?

 

The purpose of marriage and sex life is to produce devotee children.

That's one way of looking at it. I view both marriage and sex as expressions of love and affection, therefore I see no harm in such relationships.

 

Yay! This is my thirtieth post! I can PM now! Talk to you tomorrow Indulekha Dasi and I'd like to have sangha w/ you Baobatree (if you're up to it). Night guys! Jai Sri Radharani!

 

I would be quiet happy to have satsang with you. I'll pm you my email.

Need a translation, Radhe. I would be interested to hear your thoughts about Sai Baba.

I only know basic French, but I think she said something along the lines of "Yes, that's true. I like Shiridi Sai Baba, but not Sathya Sai Baba".

 

The caste by birth thread reminded me that some people think there are guru lines by birth also. Accepting guru on the basis of birth vs. qualities strikes me as a most foolish proposition.

 

Anybody here accept guru by birth 'parampara's as legetimate?

 

I'm not sure if it is the based idea out there, but I don't have anything against any sampradayas who have family lineages (if that's what you are refering to).

 

Where in the scriptures you stated that you accept as authority (Vedas, upanishads, and mahabharata) is the above view supported? I would be interested to see clear and explicit evidence - Sanskrit and verse numbers.

 

Thanks.

You yourself believe one is born into their caste, so I don't need to give any evidence there. I will admit, I can't think of any examples of people changing castes, that come directly to my mind from the texts I mentioned, but didn't Valmiki change his caste from an outcaste to a Brahmin?

I don't know enough about this incident to comment upon it, however I was rather disturbed when I read this-

It is amazing that homosexual relationships are finding tolerance but having more than one wife is considereed a high crime.

What exactly is so wrong with homosexuality might I ask?

 

If an individual make a judgement then on what bases that would be made ?

 

Individuals need to attempt to base their varna upon which they think they're the most qualified to preform. It's obviously not that simple, and people are going to make mistakes, but this is the Kali Yuga, what can you do?

 

 

These presupposes the birth of an individual was random there was no guna karma attached from previous life, real smack in the face, might as well throw Vedas and karma out of the window.

I don't argue that someone is born into the caste of their parents. This is clear from what Smritis say about individuals like Parashurama (amongst others). Instead, I'd argue that one's varna can change, if they find they are more qualified for another varna (likewise if they choose to follow the varna of their parents, it should be because they feel they are qualified)

 

 

The division within a family it self would be hard to overcome. There has been different quarters for each varna, how would a family within which there are different varna live to gather, how would a marriage take place? On what basis child’s samskaras would be performed? There could be many complication of acceptance.

I don't think one needs to segregate themselves from people of other varnas.

 

 

Now Arjun was worried about kula dharma what would that be?

From what I understand this means family duties, yes?

 

 

Because some of you may have us believe it could be any number of four.

 

I don't quiet understand what you mean here?

 

Just out of curiosity , how do you think one would determine a foreign man's varna?

The Vedas, Upanishads and the Mahabharata. That isn't to say, I don't hold the view that other texts might not also be authentic. I just haven't studied any other texts, that I personally believe in (though I plan on studying a lot more).

Even in the bhAgavatam itself we don't see this happening at all. As mentioned already several times, drona and ashvatthAma were both referred to as brAhmanas despite having taken to the kShatirya profession. Even Prabhupada refers to them as such. How do you convincingly explain that away?

At the risk of offending most posters on this forum, I must state that I don't consider the Srimad Bhagavatam to be an infallible scripture. That being said, I hold it very high esteem, and do except many tales from it as being true, but I'd be lying if I said I considered it to be infallible.

 

i'm sorry to tell u but this is a misconception that Sai bäbä is ShreeKrshna Bhagavän.

 

We may be Brahma but under mäyä, our consciousness is perverted.

 

ShreeKrshna is not just Brahma, HE is ParaBrahma, transcendental to even Brahma, our selfishness always tricks us to thinking that we could be God. God never feels hunger, thirst, desires, dreams, etc., and we know how good we are at all those...

 

Shreel Prabhupädajee often defied such bogus claims by saying that whosoever claims to be the Bhagavän must pass at least two tests...

 

>first to show the Vishva Rüpa, the one ShreeKrshna showed to ShreeArjuna (HE also empowered his eyes to be able to see HIS divine Viräta Svarüpa) and ShreeChaitanya Mahäprabhujee showed it to ShreeAdvaita Ächäryajee

 

>and second, to show all the divine marks in the soles of HIS LotusFeet and palms of His LotusHands.

 

the pure Vaishnavas dont accept anyone as ShreeKrshna's avatars unless they're clearly revealed in the Vedas.

 

i'm sorry, but u are offending Vaishnavas by calling Sai baba, Bhagavän ShreeKrshna.

 

pls. dont do that.

 

And you are offending the devotees of Shirdi Sai Baba (who in case you didn't know is different from this con-artist Sathya Sai Baba) by denouncing him. If not God, Shirdi Sai Baba was trully a saint of the highest level.

 

 

yogees are from just another cast of athiesm, they're non-devotees, as they dont accept the innocent service to the Supreme and take to rebellious way to find eight psychic amusemnts to please gullible and greedy crowd.

Now you've crossed the line! Certainly, there are many yogis who are fakes and are just looking for money and fame, but many have spent years upon years of sevre penance and practice, in an attempt to understand God, and the self. You are the one clammering about not offending devotees, but you're offending a class of devotees, who are far above you and I, in terms of spiritual practice.

 

It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one's nature are never affected by sinful reactions.

 

Couldn't the very fact that he mentions "Duties prescribed according to one's nature" indicate that one's varna is determined by a person's nature, not what their parents' castes are? When this is taken into account, the first line could very well be warning us of taking up duties based upon things like which family we're born into.

Thanks, I'd really appreciate that.

Namaste all.

 

Would anyone here be able to provide me with an audio recording of someone singing the Mahakali Chalisa, and with both the lyrics and an audio recording of any sort of Aarti for Kali? Any helpd is greatly appreicated.

 

Jai Kali Maa!

I think it might have to do with spamming in general, and not necessarily proselytizing.

I never really got why you had to have such and such posts to be able to send PMs. Oh well, just post around a bit and that function will be accessible again.

 

due to sins of my past lives, i once went inside their temple, what i found was that there only big statues of their theory found ers made were portrayed, there was not a single diety of LordShreeKrshna or LordSadäShiva!

Well, every Swaminarayan temple I've seen has had murtis of Lord Krishna, Radha, Nara-Narayan etc. in them as well as Swaminarayan's murti (it should also be noted that they believe Swaminarayan is God, not just a guru). Where was this temple you visited?

Anyone interested? I don't follow any particular school of thought, but In relation to God and the universe, my views are probably closest to Vishistadvaita and I my Ishta Devi is Kali Maa (though I happily worship Shiva, Durga, Ganesha, Parvati, Krishna, Radha, Hanuman, Ram, Sita and other deities as well). Give me a PM if you're interested, and I'll send you my email.

 

Tell me how you like it!

And anyone who understands it, can they please post a translation?

Sadly I don't know Tamil (or any Indian language for that matter) so I can't really help translate this for you, but I really enjoyed this kirtan. Thanks for positng