Mahadyuti

one should never be desired to be worshipped as guru. Krsna will let you become a clown who insists on taking himself seriously and a spectecle to those watching.

That is so very true Prabhu. Looking at that picture, I dont know who is worse, the cheater or the foolish followers.

Couldn't agree more Mahak prabhu.

 

The method of the ritviks is distasteful, to say the least. Going around to festivals and provoking devotees and getting their reaction on the camera. They then post these videos on youtube. Such cheap tactics and they wonder why they aren't respected.

 

These ritviks are so thoroughly brainwashed that they're more interested in offending and overthrowing other devotees than make progress in Bhakti. A misguided bunch.

Just see that madness. This guest does not mention the fact that IRM devotees where verbally and physically abused by a so called Guru for simply distributing BTP magazine along with a crazed violent 'devotee' who proceeded to steal magazines and tear them apart.

This crazed, dysfunctional, brainwashed cultish behaviour is totally acceptable to our guest friend, but accuses IRM for distaseful behaviour for simply distributing a magazine with a different point of view.

Therefore he is saying that;

1. Its ok to beat and abuse someone for distributing literature that you dont agree with.

2. Its the fault of those who distribute a magazine with an opossing point of view when they are beaten and abused.

This is the logic of a madman. According to this crazy logic, if a sankirtana devotee was assulted on the street it would be the fault of the sankirtana devotee for going to a place where materialist congregates and it would be his fault for going there and causing a disturbance.

Absolute lunacy.

Couldn't agree more Mahak prabhu.

 

The method of the ritviks is distasteful, to say the least. Going around to festivals and provoking devotees and getting their reaction on the camera. They then post these videos on youtube. Such cheap tactics and they wonder why they aren't respected.

 

These ritviks are so thoroughly brainwashed that they're more interested in offending and overthrowing other devotees than make progress in Bhakti. A misguided bunch.

Yes we are 'distasteful', 'brainwashed', 'interested in offending' and 'misguided'.

All character assassination and personal attacks. This is a sign that you have no arguement and are defeated.

So are you saying that Srila Prabhupada's signature on the July 9th letter is actually a rubber-stamp that TKG used without SP's knowledge??

 

Why would TKG stamp SP's signature on a letter which appoints him and the other 10 as ritviks, not gurus; states three times that all initiated disciples belong to SP; and does not mention the 11 as acting in any sort of guru capacity whatsoever?

Very true Tom Prabhu, I have heard this strange idea a few times, mainly from other 'Ritviks'. It makes no sense whatsoever.

If Tamal could forge Prabhupada's signature, why would he just talk about Ritviks in the letter knowing that he wanted to be Prabhupada's successor?

Makes no sense to forge a letter which only authorises you to act as a Ritvik on behalf of Prabhupada, when your plan is to forge a bogus guru authorisation letter.

Hare Krishna Mahak,

Why is it that instead of discussing the Ritvik issue, you simply engage in ad hominem?

Your main problem with Ritviks is that they do not preach.........

the glories of krsna and the spiritual master, rather, the flaws of every vaisnava teacher presently on the planet .

You go on to say......

I find very little difference in the rtvik religion and the contrived guruships of the perverts and drug addicts pretending to inherit the vyasasanas from Srila Prabhupada.

So making it clear that you are againced this practice of criticising Vaisnava's, you go on to criticise those who simple believe in the Ritvik system to be no different from 'perverts and drug addicts'.

I suggest you follow your own advice and engage in preaching , "the glories of Krishna and the spiritual master rather then the flaws of every vaisnava teacher on the planet."

Secondly to call the July 9th Document 'garbage' and to say it should be burned is shocking and shameful.

You doupt the signature (which is speculation) but even admit that it could be genuine. So therefore you call a document garbage and declare it should be burned while admitting that there is a definate chance it was authorised by Prabhupada. That is disgusting.

And I would like to make it clear to everyone here that the IRM donnot simply engage in 'critisizing' as in BTP magazine, but simply expose the TRUTH for the welfare of all.

This nonsense arguement was used many times againced Prabhupada...that he was to critical, always bashing the athiest scientists, karmi's, mayavadis, bogus guru's, pseudo spiritualists.

Foolish people would say, 'why all this criticizing Swamiji, why not just preach about Krsna'.

This is all nonsense...Prabhupada criticised all the cheaters to expose them SO WE CAN KNOW WHAT IT THE REAL THING..the IRM simply add one extra category to this list of cheaters........bogus Iskcon Guru's.

The cheaters must be exposed so that the innocent will not be cheated, so that they will know the real genuine article.......Srila Prabhupada, the real Guru.

lol yea right......isnt it convenient to have this wishy washy, 'my position is anything' position.

Yea Lowborn doesn't follow GBC, Iskcon Guru's ,he just has his own personal thing going on. Great, just great. Get cornered and then declare, 'well I'm selling my own unique brand doesnt matter if GBC and Iskcon Gurus have a different opinion.'

Just brilliant, priceless:burn:

And what on earth is stopping them from figuring out who is a saint and who is a swindler for themselves? That is how it has always been.

 

What? You are going to sort that out for them? Why should they trust you? Iskcon will do that? And that is precisely who? GBC? They were wrong before on that very subject, why trust them now?

 

I give you my position in every post. Debate that if you like.

 

Is Jayapataka Maharaja qualified to accept disciples? Since his disciples obviously think so, why should that bother me? What business do I have placing myself between him and his disciples? If some guy thought you are a qualified guru, that would not bother me one bit either. But if they asked me whether you represent the siddhanta of Saraswata sampradaya I would have to tell them that you do not. That is a pretty simple system, tried and tested over the millenias.

I don't accept that Srila Prabhupada personally signed it".

Mataji....which part of 'Its authority is beyond question' dont you understand?

"Its authority is beyond question [...] Clearly, this letter establishes a ritvik-guru system."

(Jayadvaita Swami 'Where the ritvik People are Wrong' 1996)

Or have you also decided to challenge Jayadwaita, one of your 80 Bona Fide Guru's?

Remember Lowborns idea that Guru's can make mistakes, be disciplined, disagreed with is a concoction.

"As Hari is not subject to the criticism of mundane rules and regulations, the spiritual master empowered by Him is also not subjected."

(C.c. Madhya, 10.136, text and purport)

Why should I NOT doubt Jayadvaita? Is he God or something?

lol......no but he's a bona fide guru right, God's repressentative on this planet. Yes......no? This just gets more and more rediculous. Well is he or isnt he? Or do you pick and choose, a bit like a spiritual play your cards right?

You've got Sivarama calling Jayapataka a 'sick, duplicitous liar', youve got Bhakta Vikasha Swami calling Bhakta Tirtha Swami a 'demon'. You've got rank and file devotees like Lowborn picking and choosing which 'Bone Fide Acharya' is the real deal and who is bogus.

So you've got a situation where the Guru's and the disciples cant even work out the saints from the swindlers.

Get a position buddy, then we can debate.

lol this lady's funny.

The fact the Prabhupada set up a Ritvik system is accepted on BOTH sides of the arguement......and she's saying Prabhupada didn't set it up.

"Its authority is beyond question [...] Clearly, this letter establishes a ritvik-guru system."

(Jayadvaita Swami 'Where the ritvik People are Wrong' 1996)

Now our friend Lowborn is doupting Jayadvaita!!!! Can you guys even stick together on anything?

To be disbanded on departure or to go on post departure is the debate, Prabhupada setting the whole thing up is accepted by both sides.....apart from Deborah of course.

So a Ritvik system that goes on while Prabhupada is present is accepted by everyone, but where is it in Sastra........???????

So according to the Logic of Ms Pitts no one should have even followed the Ritvik system while Prabhupada was on the planet, as the system has no historical precedent.

Imagine the scene if Deborah was a Bhaktine in 1977, "Sorry Prabhupada I'm not following your bogus Ritvik system because its not in sastra."

Great....that falls into disobeying the order of the spiritual master to me.

No, he didn't. Where is it in the Sastra? Else, are you saying Srila Prabhupada introduced something not in the Sastra?!

 

As you folks like to accuse Lowborn prabhu of twisting everything, why don't you lead by example. Here, please give me a straightfioward answer, so we can see .... Where is such a ritvik system endorsed in the Sastra? Specific quotes & references, please.

er...Mataji.....Mahak never actually said that Ritvik was bogus.

You say 'concocted' lol yea right......Prabhupada only set it up!

Its called the July 9th Directive:deal: read it, see what it says, thats not a concoction its a FACT and its signed by Prabhupada.

Zonal Acarya's are a concoction.

Voting in Guru system where Guru's can be disciplined is a concoction.

Wow maya's really got inside Iskcon, you know that when guys are saying Prabhupada's orders are a concoction. Thats maya ....big time.

As ever ... a beautifully written post Mahak Prabhu.

 

I can't find any reference in sastra to such a 'ritvik' system and the ritviks, though repeatedly asked, can't seem able to provide Sastric references. Therefore I must agree with your conclusion that this ritvik thing is concocted.

Ritviks are just another set of cult followers, oblivious to reality, reason, and logic.

LOL we're the cult now????

Here's the scene, youve got Hansadutta with his firearm collection, Jayatirtha tripping on LSD getting his kead hacked off, Kirtanananda MURDERING Sulochana, Bhavanada raping poor gurukuli kids, and a bunch of sheep who follow them.

And were the cult? We just say Prabhupada's the Guru.

Yea right Lowborn poor old Tusta Krishna:crying2: dont say anything about him 'he's a hundred times better devotee then me', but when TKG and Gunsadutta say anything you dont like your like showing your fangs and spitting venom at them.

Your the king of double standards buddy.

LOL! What an outburst of emotion in defense of the Vaishnavas! When was the last time you read your own BTP magazine? You guys are absolute TOPS when it comes to character assassination!

 

Gunsadutta (no typo here) has a mile long record of extremely questionable behavior and if you like, I can give you plenty of examples. Now you ritviks like him because he joined your camp. Suit yourself. Most older devotees know his dark side very well. Perhaps you are just a new bhakta. Go and google something on him.

 

As to Tamal Goswami's character, you better check with your ritvik bosses before you start making him into a trustworthy pillar of truth. You ritviks like him about as much as people like hernia.

 

"Clueless" is actually a very mild term to describe the exploits of these two in the aforementioned time period.

The hoax has been confessed by Tamal and Hansadutta. They all new it was the system for when Prabhupada left the planet.

Hansadhutta, one of the original 11 Ritviks (Self appointed gurus)

"Hansadhutta:...I distinctly remember when I received the July 9, l977 letter in Śrī Lanka, that it was clear that that letter was Srila Prabhupada's arrangement for INITIATIONS FOR THE FUTURE.

I also remember feeling some dissappoinment with obvious conditional authority that the Rittvik representative of the Acharya designation implied, because I actually had a great desire to be a guru like Srila Prabhupada, and I think many of the leaders did have similiar desires."

TKG made this shocking confession back in 1980 when he was banned from initiating by the GBC for his involvement in the sahajya Gopi Bhava Club.

Come on guys, wake up. Would have fallen for the bogus Zonal Acharya nonsense as well and be defending it with your last breath back in the 80's? Probably.

PYRAMID HOUSE CONFESSIONS December 3rd 1980 Topanga Canyon

Actually Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He appointed eleven ritviks. He never appointed them gurus. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement the last three years because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus.

If you follow Jesus teachings in the Bible, then you will not be a Hare Krishna.

Is that an unproven speculation? Yes I think so. I am a Vaisnava and follow the bible also very nicely.

"For God so loved the World, that he gave his ONLY Begotten Son, that whosever believes IN HIM, should not perish, but have everlasting life."

- John 3:16

 

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father, but by me."

- John 14:6

 

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God IS eternal life thru Jesus Christ our Lord."

 

Please spare me quotes that I have read time and time again to prove your FALSE INTERPRETATION of them to mean that only born again christains are going to the kingdom of God and all good people from other religions are going to hell.

I have spoken to many leading authorities in the Chrisitan religion and they all agree that this is a false idea presented by the 'born again sect'.

If you want Christians to stop calling Hare Krishna's a hodgepodge new age cult, and want to be respected on your own, then you better stop twisting their religious founder's teachings, as if they were connected to Vaishnavism, and acknowledge that the Christian religion is an entirely separate religion, with it's own beliefs and doctrines, that have no historical connection to the Messianic Judaism religion of Jesus Christ.

LOL Im sorry I have no concern to what a fanatical NEW AGE hodgepodge cult known as 'Born Again Christianity' thinks about Vaisnavism nor do I have any concern for the 'respect' of such indiviaduals. It is amusing that you refer to Vaisnavism as 'new age' although it precedes Christianitly by thousands of years.!!

Born again is notorious for being a cult with a very fanatical hate ridden bias toward other religions and your views in no way repressent so many good christians. Yes before you say it Hare Krishna has also cultish elements, but this is due to corrupt leaders in the movement who have disobeyed Prabhupada and many blind followers of them. In time the corruption will be removed and has nothing to do with the Founders original books and teachings.

To state that all religions are teaching basically vaishnavism in their own ways, is the height of arrogance, and is to belittle the respective teachings of each tradition. These are all their own religions respectively.

Right OK...so to suggest that all religions have a common goal which is to love one another, love God, learn about who we are, what is our relationship with God, that our real home is to be with God..........is arrogance you say?!!!

But to suggest that only a cult of followers who missinterpret one quote from the bible as their sole doctrine and suggest that all other religions be they good kind people.....ARE GOING TO HELL because they dont happen to go through Jesus....well thats OK?

Just a thought but that understanding seems a bit unintelligent, fanatical, illogical, sectarian, cultish, hate ridden and mindless.

Hare Krishna:D

why are the views of Hare Krishnas more true than Christianity or Islam or any other religious view for that matter?

Hare Krishna. Thank you for your questions. You may have found that certain devotees may have had this opinion but Prabhupada never actually said that. Actually Prabhupada said that any bona fide religion is good, just to follow. The only thing that makes the Vedas stand out, is that they go into details such as who is God, what does he look like, why do good people or innocent people suffer, do animals have souls, what is the soul etc etc. Which answers a lot more questions then onther scriptures.

You say "all scriptures lead to the same goal" and then you also interpret Chirstianity to be supporting vegeterian views. I am not saying you are wrong in your interpretation of the Christian scriptures. However your interpretation definitely disagrees with 99.99% of Christians' interpretation of these scriptures. In particular, main stream Christian beliefs have always stated that no one can achieve salvation unless it is through Jesus Christ. If Christians are right then probably a significant proportian of Hare Krishna followers are going to Hell. I don't necessarily agree with these Christians but somehow I suspect that this is not the part of Christianity that you would regard as "leading to the same goal"?

I feel like the idea that all other religions such as buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Sikhism etc are going to hell because they dont go 'through Jesus Christ' is somewhat fanatical and seems to be a distortion. This is obviously a very narrow minded understanding that is mainly propounded by the Born Again sect of christianity. Jesus did say you have to go through him. But it could mean so many things but this one interpretation given my born again christians. One such idea is that one muct go through the bona fide representative, which was Jesus at that time.

You also say that I put a vegetarian interpretation on Christianity. 'Thou shalt not kill' is CLEAR, SIMPLE , DIRECT. Killing according to the dictionary means any kind of killing. Actually the INTERPRETATION for this to mean only humans and not animals is just that.....an INTERPRETATION, by the so called Christains. Prabhupada said that Jesus said 'thou salt not kill' yet the so called christains have opened the biggest slaughterhouses. Its really a simple thing....killing poor animals especially cows is extemely sinful and one will never even begin to undertand God.

In what sense is it scientific? Does the scriptures make scientific assertions or are the scriptures scientifically provable? I am trying not to blindly following anything, hence my question. Yet you are asking me to blindly chant the Hare Krishna mantra. What can I expect when I do chant the mantra for six months?

That is exactly my point. Science is about a hypothesis, then experiment, then a conclusion. You say 'why should I blindly chant for 6 months' which is exactly like saying why sould I even make an experiment. This is why you should try it.....you will know for sure if it changes your consciousness that there is something real, tangible. Or you will find it does nothing so you can reject it all as nonsense. Without experimenting you will never really know.

Unfortunately there are many Religions in the world today (10 000 according to some accounts). I am unlikely to live for long enough to spend 6 months on every Religion. Sure, I am trying to find a short cut. However, if there is a Religion that has the truth surely this must be easily identifiable?

 

Be anything, a muslim, Christian or Hare Krishna just follow properly and you will made advancement. About my suggestion to chant Hare Krishna, if you want just chant Christ, it is a name of God and equally powerful. All religions encourage the chanting of Gods holy names, please try it.

Please excuse my somewhat harsh previous post, if you found it to passionate I do appologise.

I wish you all the best in you journey, you are a sincere seeker and I know you want to find the truth and I commend you for it. Try reading Bhagavada gita, many great thinkers and scientists such as Einstien studied the Gita and the Vedas. I am very confident that you will find everything that is contained in other scriptures in it and much much more.

I wish you the best!

Hare Krishna;)

The DVD Ksatriya deer hunter fallacy is just another Prabhupada-onlyite manifestion which is akin to Rtvikism in that it divorces B.V. Swami Prabhupada from his own guru-varga.

Who set up 'Ritvikism'? Prabhupada. So you are saying Prabhupada's own system that he set up divorces Prabhupada from his own guru-varga? lol what nonsense. And please stop using this bogus term 'ritviksim' as it is a pathetic atempt to make the bonafide Ritvik System the Prabhupada put in place seem like a concoction. The term 'ritvikism' is bogus and never used by Prabhupada.

Once you get below the surface you find that they have a very prejudiced, negative view of all of Prabhupada's godbrothers and their successors in the guru varga.

Prejudiced?! Did Prabhupada also have a predudiced view when he gave orders not to associate with the Gaudia Math and that none of his godbrothers are qualified to be acharya? So following Prabhupada's orders is being predudiced and negative?

Once I was at a big North American ISKCON temple for a festival. Some Poison Theory/Rtviks were across the street dressed in battle fatigues handing out flyers. I'm sure that they were also "Survivalists" and possesed firm arms. From there it's just a small leap to deer hunting.

Right if your a Ritvik your a deerhunter now lol this is ludicrous!! utter madness!!

I know this is an off topic and I appologise.

Hare Krishna

But everyone DID accept them as the next successors, and these 11 claimed the letter authorized them to be successors even up till late 1980's.

 

In other words, the actual history is that they took this letter and told people it appointed them as guru successors, and enough people went along with it. They never used this letter to say they were appointed as ritviks.

 

So your argument that no one would have believed a forged letter that said these 11 are the next gurus is proven wrong. Even without such a forged letter they made that claim and 90% of the devotees believed it.

 

Further this letter is based on recorded conversations which anyone can listen to. The conversations said the exact same thing as the letter.

 

Prabhupada had already appointed these people as ISKCON leaders and GBCs. Why do you think he wouldn't appoint them as ritvik representative?

Good points. Most devotee's fell for the Zonal Acharya deviation, the minority, the ones with their heads screwed on who think for themselves, new that it was a deviation but were driven out of ISKCON by the authorities and their brainwashed clones.

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 95%; TEXT-ALIGN: left" cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top; WIDTH: 15%; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-ALIGN: right">FACT:</TD><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere Godbrothers and Godsisters.

('Where the ritvik People are Right, Jayadvaita Swami, 1996)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

The mass would have fallen for just about ANYTHING if the corrupt leaders told them to do it. Just like they have fallen for the current "vote in a Guru" scam hook line and sinker!