Bhakta Devarsi

Blah, blah, blah Theist, oh how you condescend. There you go again with your amateur mind reading trick. Why don't you try asking me? And don't bother saying I implied this, it is just your Supersoul trip blinding you. My dumb luck would be that you would stop being so condescending and cruel. I should write that down. What a realization. At a more advanced stage of Sadhana, after reading and understanding, a person will realize that their Spiritual master is Supersoul. But you neglect to admit that my post was directed at the concept of people claiming to by guided by Paramatma within in a consistent, clear, and undiluted form. You have this tendency, did you ever notice? You know deflection and then elaboration on an irrelevant point? More exaggeration. And revealing. According to this false statement a neophyte person cannot AT ALL, hear and follow ANY of their Guru's instructions unless they can consciously conclude and state that he is "hearing" supersoul. How many people sincerely followed Srila Prabhupada's instructions when they first met him, before they even knew the concept of Paramatma? Huh Theist? You just want to fight? No reasonable discussion here right? Just a slugfest? Not that anyone knows me or cares about me on this forum, but if anyone cares, they can go back and read what I wrote about, and then see how much you actually read what I said before responding. Perhaps what I wrote hit home, and I was describing something you tend to do? Is that why you are being so exaggerative and defensive here? Is this your sandbox Theist? Oh My God. The first sensible thing you have said. As a matter of fact, that is what I have been saying. All these people touting instant Paramatma realization without strictly following the instructive process are cheap and cheating. That first part of that paragraph was nice, and I heartily agree. I don't know any self-appointed ritviks. Do you? Cyber Hari Bol

Well, lets see. We start out blind and crazy mlecchas. We maybe understood something Supersoul tried to convey to us a hanful of times over our lifespan. The rest is him, using the gunas, to move us around and arrange us where we might just maybe stumble upon his "external rep" and humbly accept something he has to give. So he gives some tools. At first they are rules. No-one gets the unalloyed eternal dictation from Supersoul without following the rules strictly. And that eternal dictation is not cheaply gained by a couple years of neophyte service For Most of Us. It is actually a symptom of the most exalted Vaisnava to have uninterrupted conscious communion with Supersoul. But I know too many, way too many, who push this "supersoul connection" as if they already have it CONSCIOUSLY established eternally. Many of them post on this forum. If it wasn't so sad, I would say it is laughable. Cheap, imitation, sahajya. And of course so deluded, it is not a big leap for such persons to begin to speculate about what Srila Prabhupada "REALLY WANTED". After all, look at all the people floundering to understand what his comprehensive instructions for sadhana are, when all you have to do is worship caitya-guru and next thing you know, instant acharya. Just add caitya guru! As Mahak pointed out, Jesus understood quite well that someone like this cannot possibly understand the direct and simple instructions given by an Acharya. And similarly, so deluded, these people turn a blind eye to their own mixed devotional status, conclude that Maha-Maya's dictates are those of Sri Paramatma, and reject their varna, reject the multitude of instructions Srila Prabhupada gave to first get us into honesty about our material goals in Varnasrama, and then "just add Krsna". So deluded, that I am expecting one or more of them to respond to this post with some nonsense about Vaisnava's not indulging in politics, or Srila Prabhupada wasn't the founder of Iskcon (quote from Narayana Maharaja) or some similar tripe. Srila Prabhupada once requested that his disciples "Become broad-minded". This does not mean to accept the rantings of speculative fools who are so boldly egoic as to quickly proclaim they got the essence of Srila Prabhupada's instructions, and then counter them in black and white. The broad minded thing to do is to respectfully expose their tripe for the benefit of the innocent, and move along. Best to avoid their company altogether, but that type of person needs the prana of others to survive, so you will find them insinuating themselves everywhere. And so it goes. Hare Krsna

Hare Krsna Ditto what Theist said. Regarding this Jiva origin issue, Shakti Fan made a salient point, that Krsna Lila is not the same as being in Krsnaloka, Goloka Vrndavan. Especially when a shaktavesha avatara is using the term Krsna Lila. It has a broad umbrella of definition. So Nitya-baddha Jivas were technically once with Krsna. At the very least, their little particle selves were tranquilly floating in Lord Krsna's aura. And now they play the role of eternally conditioned but they were in Krsna's lila for sure. This is no consolation in reality because in reality such Jiva's are now under the influence of MAHA MAYA. The nitya-baddhas engage in Vaidhi Bhakti sadhana, and may repeatedly fall and take rebirth while struggling to purify to Raganuga Stage. The nitya-siddhas engage in Vaidhi Bhakti sadhana for a comparatively shorter (sometimes only a moment) period of time, and their activities satisfy the functions of both providing an example for nitya-baddhas to follow and increasing or changing their rasa with the Lord. So it is possible to fall from Vaikuntha or even Krsnaloka. But under the care of Yoga-maya. Sudama and Tulsi fell, and Sudama was a great demon on earth, who ruled the earth, nay the 3 worlds, and romped with Tulsi in the pleasure gardens of the earth, with no regulation. Still this is pure and transcendental. Of course a neophyte will hypothesize that a personal servant of the Lord with steady rasa (like Sudama prabhu) could "forget" about Krsna under the auspices of Maha-Maya, but that should be expected. The understanding of the 2 Maya's and their relation to the Lord and Jiva souls is hidden from most for a time. Hare Krsna ys BD

Hare Krsna, All Glories to the assembled devotees. You know, we all have our sob stories. Me included. I sob every day. And I also empathically understand why people may doubt Srila Prabhupada, or may be confused as to what his exact instructions might have been, because as we know there was a SINISTER, CALCULATED, AND CONCERTED EFFORT TO OBSCURE HIS INSTRUCTIONS. However, I beg that aspiring Vaisnavas refrain from making speculative assessments of what Srila Prabhupada's instructions were. Especially in public. If you are unsure, ask. Have faith that Sri Nityananda Prabhu would not let all his efforts at producing comprehensive Vani for even the MOST FALLEN (ie. not liberated associates like Jagai and Madhai under Yoga-Maya's influence, but nitya-baddha's 100 times worse then them) that those efforts would not go in vain, and that SOMEONE OR SOME GROUP OF SOULS would have received his Vani comprehensively and intact. How could anyone proclaim faith in their chosen Guru and Sri Gauranga and imagine that only by speculating could we know what a glorious Shaktavesha Avatara like HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada wanted us to do? Please think about these things before speaking. This will inevitably lead to humble inquiry, and then, those who DID GET IT, will be compelled by the sincerety of the inquiry to share. Otherwise we set ourselves up for the inevitable. Deeper illusion, offense to Vaisnavas, and probably lockjaw in the end. I hope this has been a sensible post. All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga! ys BD

This was Maha Maya's plan, in part. She sends the men to Srila Prabhupada, he does what he can with them seeing them as sent by Krishna. She tempts them, and according to their free will, they abuse their power, abuse the Acharya, and put a bad taste in everyone's mouth. So much so that anything that can be possibly associated with those turncoats is now taboo, unpalatable to contemplate, and off the table. Including most of his brilliant management strategy. And those who were jealous at the time of those who were in the "inner circle", and secretly astonished and annoyed that Srila Prabhupada would choose them over me, are now stepping up to bat with their own speculative theories and misinterpretations of Srila Prabhupada's management idea for Iskcon. He gave us the laws for 10,000 years. And now some semi-charmed, psuedo intellectual, ex-hippies are compelled to ignore the black and white of the rules of managing a transcendental institution and unconsciously (I hope) begin canvassing for their own twiggy little neophyte branch of the Tree of Bhakti. And Maha Maya looks over her creation, and says, it is bad. Very bad. I did well. Very well. Now to seal the deal and convince the rest that Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers, who were not chosen for their absolute surrender in order to convert anyone and everyone in foreign cultures, are now the go-to guys, and bury Srila Prabhupada's Siksa, including that pesky Ritvik Daivi Varnashrama institution he left. And Maha Maya wins the day. The year. The decade. And it is shaping up to be the century now. To bad we don't TOGETHER follow the EXACT system of devotional service AND management left by Srila Prabhupada, because surely what he gave would help us beat Maya, if followed without speculation. Or would it? Maybe he wasn't so potent after all.... I think I have an idea...

And here is another one from Mahak. It seems so easy to find some ritvik proponent who might think this way. But why paint them all with the same brush. Shame shame shame. And again, THEN (76-77) the TP often went to a middleman with his recommendations. I have never heard a case where the secretaries performing the ritvik function at that time (Pradumnya Prabhu, and Tamala Krsna) ever turned down a recommendation. The only reason they may have had to do so was a personal grudge against the TP or aspirant (by some strange coincidence they knew the aspirant). But it could have happened, and probably did now that I think on it. I mean hell these guys locked Srila Prabhupada in a room for 3 days with starvation rations in LA. Why be afraid of turning down a candidate for personal reasons? What is the "old man" going to find out? Well maybe a few of them still had some healthy fear of SP. But most did not. Point is, Srila Prabhupada heaped alot of trust on us. From the beginning. The nice thing about Ritvik is that a person does not have to be an Uttama adhikari to accept disciples on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. All they need to do is follow instructions, and repeat, the same criteria for giving good Siksa when one is a surrendered disciple. One may not be an advanced devotee, but pure enough to give good Siksa from time to time repeating instructions for other aspirants relevant to their situation. Is that person to be considered a bona-fide Siksa Guru and Spiritual Master? Not perpetually, until they show the symptoms of unalloyed devotion over time which lets one know their advanced position. One with discrimination never points to a neophyte who knows a few parts of the beginning science of Krsna, and tells others "That is a Siksa Guru". Similarly, the Ritvik, by following the exact process given by the Acharya, gets temporary empowerment to get the job done. Personally, I believe the Ritvik should not be chosen from among neophytes. For as Kula-Pavana would point out if he were here, we might have a chance to learn from the hell people put Srila Prabhupada through, and might have a chance to put more qualified people into certain positions, and by all means we should if possible. ys. BD

In addition, to this quote by Mahak, A neophyte disciple is still a disciple, and can be considered a pure devotee if they do not deviate. Yet such a one is not to give Diksa initiation, unless they fall from their position as neophyte by breaking their own Guru's injunction Nectar of Devotion, Chap 5. by Srila Prabhupada. "A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikäri as a spiritual master.” " NOD Ch. 5 So such a person, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, can deliver NOTHING intact while still a neophyte or even madhyama unless done strictly according to the system authorized. The only "relationship" such a person has with Srila Prabhupada, ESPECIALLY THE NEOPHYTE, is yes or no order following, and any strength they get is mercy. They are not in a siddha deha yet, they got NOTHIN. As for an uttama disciple of Srila Prabhupada, Srila Prabhupada mentioned being regular guru by his order. Somehow I doubt an uttama disciple of Srila Prabhupada is going to waltz into an already established institution, Iskcon, and start changing the same rules that worked just fine to get him into Raganuga. No, if there was such necessity for a new system, that person would have plenty of potency to make a new and separate arrangement, outside of Iskcon, not needing to LEECH LIKE A PARASITE off of Srila Prabhupada's and thus Sri Krsna's intellectual properties, physical properties, and try to snake some neophytes for laborers. Puh-lease! Hare Krsna

Originally Posted by mahaksadasa Yes, TPs recommended new disciples, to Prabhupada, who responded actively to such recommendations Sorry, this is pure bunk, and Mahak should know that Srila Prabhupada's active role was to delegate the entire process, including the receiving of TP recommendations, and the responding or acceptance of those aspirants recommended, to a select few, and this was way before the May 28th 1977 appt. tape. It is Srila Prabhupada's authorization which allows any process he initiates to be considered plenary in its presentation, and fully executable, with a submissive service attitude. To bad so many people are seriously jaded, and so defensive that they cannot allow this possibility into their realm. But wounds heal, and Srila Prabhupada's system will be there for anyone to take up at any time, for those so attracted. Hare Krsna

Braj Prabhu, please explain how you think it was that Srila Prabhupada 'transfered the bija" to the disciples who never once saw or spoke with his vapu form between 1976 an 77 when this was occuring. Srila Prabhupada was not informed of anything at all about most of them. Never met them, did not even know what spiritual name his secretaries chose for them. Did Srila Prabhupada leave them high and dry? No Bhakti Lata Bija?

Said theist in response to.. "So why do you think someone needs "secretarial" help for their connection with Prabhupada, might be the real question. Are you saying that reading Prabupada's books would not be enough to develop spiritual understanding? It could only be achieved if some one had a ritvik to preform an intiation ceromony for him?" So... For the uninitiated (figuratively).... All of what SEEMS to be ritual or ceremony which was displayed and established by Srila Prabhupada for "repetition" in the future, are all in ACTUALITY eternal and blissful transcendental events. This so called ritual is presented to us as such, very very very similar to what a mundane ritual or ceremony is like. That is how we are first reached out to. Through what appears to our eyes as a statue, and a mechanical ritual, and some formal vows before a fire. By the Lord's grace, it looks like something we are familiar with in our conditioned state, and we treat it like that for a while, when ON THE OTHER SIDE, REALITY IS TREATING US, and one day we discover... The ritual is no longer something without spontaneity. There never was a ritual except due to our polluted consciousness at the time. Yet, mystically, it still appears a ritual to those not initiated into this secret. It is that simple folks. Guru says do it, and you think you can convince his sincere disciples why they should not? What a waste of breath. Why not allow those brahminically qualified to perform formal initiation ceremonies on behalf of Srila Prabhupada? Why not allow for the function that formal public acceptance ceremony has upon the psyche of the aspiring disciple. Srila Prabhupada authorized it, his voice is on the mantra tape, he was willing to accept Ritvik initiated disciples who he externally never met, during his appearance, and claimed willingness to do the same after he was "no longer with us". So for the millions of Jivas who in the next 10000 years who feel some attraction to the shelter of HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada in particular, he not only left comprehensive Siksa in his books, but also he offers them formal Diksa initiation according to the "ritual" process he himself utilized! 6 months of certain qualifications = Harinama or preliminary initiation 6 more months of additional = 2nd (Diksa gayatri or Brahmin) initiation His ritviks were overseeing this while he was present. He never recinded it, and made specific and detailed arrangements for its adherence, Henceforward. A ritvik is no middle man. A true ritvik priest is a faithful and brahminically inclined servant of his spiritual master, always answering the call with, "By your command." His command was not to pose himself as the indisposable connecting link to Diksa. Diksa occurs anyway, but the process is enhanced for some conditioned souls when the process includes the formal public vows and agni hotra. So we all do it if available. He gets in the way just long enough to do his mixed devotional thing as a brahmin, the aspiring disciple (already initiated at heart) gets whatever benefit the formal public vows offer according to his guna and karma, and the ritvik may remind them to read Srila Prabhupada's books for guidance, and then mad kirtan ensues, and then people go home and about their business. No Ritvik Guru looking over one's shoulder 24/7. No Perverts eyeing up your young son. That is what Srila Prabhupada wanted. Just do good and be good. Don't make anything up, do what I told you, and it will BECOME spontaneous and you'll look good doin it to. Sorry for being brusque but it breaks my heart that something which is so simple and obvious to me is so infrequently noticed by others. But I was warned about how many people ACTUALLY desire to know intimately. And I will defend against any public misconceptions of my Guru's vani and vapuh especially when presented amongst aspiring disicples of my Guru, and especially when stated with such casual authority. Hare Krsna ys BD

Ugh, see what I mean. The wink and a nod, oh, talk about controlling emotions, and look how emotional he is. You've got it BACKWARDS. If emotion is not displayed in every moment, we are but a dry husk. When we can admit our very HUMAN neophyte status as mixed devotees, and not go above our pay grade, we become VERY emotional. We get glimpses of transcendental sentiment, and can rest assured our material emotion will transform into that, as Hrsikesha is master of our senses. I said, CONTROL THEM. As in using them with vigor to get to the next layer of truth through lively discussion, which includes the occasional smack on the forehead, and a thank you to the Prabhu who just jostled you out of a speculation binge. NOT control them, as in supress your emotional body until you're vital force is unequally distributed to the mental body, and you thus one practically lives in speculation and then we start to lump groups of other people together as being of the same type and mindset abhorrent to us, and thus self-limit our ability to connect with the Reality of the actual common ground present there, and further collapse into impersonal speculation. Anger is to be used in devotional service. Need I pull up the quote? Is that not proper control of the very emotion that everyone seeks to quash the presence of in their life? Likewise the emotion of embarassment (loss of false pride or hubris which leads to humility) occurs when someone points out what we refuse to acknowledge over and over. Since we hate this emotion, we do our best to reject the accurate feedback we are given, thus seeming to control that emotion. Just to have it creep up again. No in this case proper control is to, upon becoming embarrassed (through correction) feel it and let it sink in, own the emotion, let it become you and ride its course. Poison going down. Nectar around the corner. What I seem to get all to often in internet forums is just rejection of feedback. And by bypassing the emotion of being caught and having to "eat crow", a person's consciousness goes directly to the speculative part of the mind, which operates exclusively when we are being dishonest with ourselves. So the evasion tactics begin. So those who are not willing to be instructed should not be preached to anymore once that is discovered. So I wander around, looking for those who might be able to point out a thing or 2 to me, and who might be looking for the same. I and others I know who have a particular faith and desire to keep Srila Prabhupada as our main Siksa guru, whose Vani we can turn to for reconciliation of all discrepencies or contradictions realize he left 50% of the service to his movement left for us, and getting consensus about how to go about that comprehensively is a goal we seek by discussion and revelation, not speculation. Yes, comprehensively. No sound bytes of "Chant and Be Happy". Let us not play liberated acharya to one another. Anyone interested in this type of deeper and naked discussion? I tried to ask this bold and omnipresent "Krsna" a question about a position he holds, but I noticed he avoids getting into any situation where he might have to challenge himself on a cherished belief. Been there, done that, it is not advancement, just denial. I am sure plenty of people hate what I am saying and feel uncomfortable with it, but that is not actually me offending you unless you tell me it happened like that for you, and you are not interested in exploring it anymore. I pray I have not already done this with anyone, and beg your forgiveness if I have been offensive. ys Bhakta Devarsi

Hare Krsna Theist I eat crow every day of my life, and that is no exaggeration, I know I am not the only one, nevertheless for many this is impossible to comprehend. I love it, because I know I am purifying. Poison going down, nectar coming out. I usually keep it to myself, but sometimes I show it. I actually assumed you knew better about some things I think I have a good handle on, and that may have been a hasty judgement, but the fact is whether you are aware of it or not, you are missing something, and another assumption I made is that naturally you would be interested in seeing it. But you know the drill obviously, if it is the truth, but we are not yet ready to let go of our old concept, ain't no-one we are going to listen to and HEAR the point. So I will assume my inadequacy in illustrating, and assume your innocence and willingness to explore a reasonable arguement and see if you can see what I think I see. Firstly, for a philosopher, you are very loose using certain terms like Ritvik, and you do alot of overgeneralizing and making of blanket statements. Perhaps that is because you feel more conversational here, and relaxed in a familiar forum atmosphere. For example. "The present day ritviks says ISKCON should accept Prabhupada's last instructions and return to the ritvik system that he authorized." (I agree in principle to this statement, but you use the word "ritviks" to indicate proponents of a theory, when in reality they are not Ritviks, and this can be confusing to any but a seasoned insider. A small thing in itself, but I am trying to illustrate a trend which dilutes the potency of spiritual discussion) You next said. "That would entail using the same group of personalities that screwed it all up." (This is (obviously?) just your opinion. And I can tell you that I do not know a single person out of the hundred or so I know who are Proponents of Srila Prabhupada's Ritvik system who hold the same. Not one. Are you sure you are educated deeply on everything Srila Prabhupada actually had to say on the issue? If so, I doubt someone with your shmarts would still have such an opinion, but maybe you just missed a major angle or 2.) "They were the ones that were authorized afterall. Hardly tenable." (True, but not the whole story. He gave instructions for replacement. And not only that, these were appointments. In any ecclesiastical (worldly or material) office one is appointed to there are strict guidelines. Failure to execute is grounds for dismissal by superiors, and another is appointed to the office. These were not gurus. They were priests with a specific function in the great Yagna of their Acharya.) "So the present ritviks, perceiving the need for ceremony to be absolute, self-appoint from among themselves devotees to conduct the ceremony and take on the role of offical ritviks. (Again a huge blanket statement and highly misinformed and dare I say misleading on a couple levels. For example, for you to say that Present ritviks perceive the need for ceremony to be absolute is just hogwash. It barely makes sense as a statement anyway. The need for ceremony, if it was one that the Acarya instructed us to enact, and gave philisophical reasons for doing so IS ABSOLUTE. You asked me if I was crazy the other day. How can you sanely argue against this?. Then you go on to say that people are self appointing, among themselves. That makes no sense either. One who self-appoints does that alone. He may convince others. This may seem a small point as well, but I am trying to show how you are barely clear in presenting what you really mean, and this points to your incomplete assessment of the situation, and need to speculate. The truth is that there may be a self-appointed ritvik priest or 3 out there. The truth is that some groups of devotees have appointed one amongst themselves, considering themselves their own GBC, and taking matters into their own hands in some region, just trying to follow SP's order. More power to the latter, and as for the former, they are LIKELY to be deluded. Then you say, "Then they go on to conduct ritvik ceremonies for new devotees and tell them that now they can have a connection with Srila Prabhupada and I might add under the impression that if it weren't for these inventive ritvik people no one could approach Srila Prabhupada." (Again, most of "them" do not wait until after a formal initiation and say "NOW you can have a connection with SP." I am sorry, I just had a realization. You are sick with envy to be making these types of generalizations. Even if you had an experiece with one or 2 people or groups who were under the delusion that it was their inventiveness that keeps people coming to Srila Prabhupada, it is just so unfair to lump everyone else, and worse to attempt to paint Srila Prabhupada's own system as something that just needs to be thrown in the dustbin of history just because we couldn't follow it, hid his instructions from each other for power, etc. I just expected alot more here, I need to meet colleagues who can control their emotions for a while. Does anyone wanna talk about this and untwist this knot from our hearts or not? ys. BD That would entail using the same group of personalities that screwed it all up.

Oh what mercy to suffer so at the hands of the "Great Sinister movement already within our society" (Letter to Hansadutta, 9/2/70.) We can only take it as Krsna's mercy, and know he has big plans for the revitalization of the TRUE ISKCON MISSION. I wonder how many liberated Vaikuntha children are waiting in the wings. If my mouth was full, I would have spit it all up with laughter after reading the "Great Rtvikian" line. Hilarious. I beg you Beggar, have mercy. Also, Narayan Maharajism also sounds alot like sahajism. Careful, his disciples are brawlers on the internet. LOL. Funny coincidence how that letter was written to Sriman Hansadutta.

Hare Krsna Brajeshwara, First thank you for your concern about my well being. Second, I know what he said, and that was all fine and agreeable, that is what a straw man is. Very easy to point to and say, that is bad. Everyone agrees, self appointed ritvik is a joke. So is a rubber stamped ecclesiastical Guru wannabee. But those examples deflected from what I was pointing to. That there WAS a process given by Srila Prabhupada, it included Ritvik reps, and like any other instruction given by an Acharya, if followed according to his guidance, without our speculative interference, it will fulfill its purpose. If followed in the manner he expected, would there be any one self appointing themselves, or sudras voting Vaisyas as Guru? I don't think so. And too too many people just want to throw out the system because we weren't able to follow it. What nonsense. We need to keep fitting ourselves into that round hole our Acharya gave us. It is ourselves who are still square. The implications of the snow job the so called senior disciples of Srila Prabhupada have pulled on the movement and thus the rest of the world is apparently lost on most, or there would be an uproar. And those who apologize for these fools are almost as bad. And those who just don't see how important it is to preserve the vani in toto will gradually wake up to smell the coffee. As for who is a Vaisnava, let's just say that any person who criticizes or even just misconstrues Srila Prabhupada's position, and states it in public, would have been better off keeping quiet til they knew the facts, UNLESS they are open to being corrected, and take it as a blessing. As soon as they resist, and choose to pontificate from their own speculative authority, we are not to futher preach to or instruct that person. But ya sure can expose him to his audience, cramp his style, and maybe convince a few potential victims that if you want to be cheated, it is much nicer to be cheated by Yoga Maya. This is not Vaisnava aparadha by the way. It is transcendental competition at best, and exposing a mleccha fraud in the sad cases. Hare Krsna ys BD

Dear Theist. You state that you see I want readers to think of me as a very strict follower of Bhaktivedanta who "follows every rule and procedure to the T." Bas Prabhu. I expected a better jab then that if you won't just humbly eat some crow. I, like lots of others around these parts, like to paraphrase a bit based on my realization, but I will always give a reference where someone can check out what I say. In that case I was simply making a point. What I spoke was the truth. I have had some glimpses of Bhakti after Vaidhi, so I can relate to what Srila Prabhupada says about this. And if one follows every rule and procedure, I refer to the one's they know about. I don't know all the rules yet. For example all of the offenses to avoid during Arcana for Sri Sri Radha-Krsna Vigraha, and the method of worship. But those I know of and have been shown the context to apply them in, either I follow them or I don't. And the result of following all the rules and regs that Sri Guru makes me aware of, even if they seem mechanical and monotonous at first due to my lack of transcendental awareness, if I follow them, I get Raganuga realization, and the MAIN POINT WHICH EVERYONE SEEMS TO DANCE AROUND IS THAT AS PER SRILA PRABHUPADA AND PAST ACHARYAS, THE RULES AND REGS ARE GENERALLY STRICTLY FOLLOWED, EVEN BY ACHARYAS. Someone who has been around as LONG as you have should understand quite well that it is not a matter there being some generic set of rules and regs and a timeframe they must be followed or there is no effect. Vaidhi Sadhana is an individual thing in many ways, but the common denominator is Surrender to Authority, and for SOME TIME, following STRICTLY any order that pertains to one's self given by said authority. Have I made myself clear? No ulterior motive, I am not promoting myself directly, just want to discuss or argue the FACTS. I do not feel the need to be falsely humble and declare some miserable neophyte position in order to be accepted. My neophyte position is actually more advanced than that. LOL. Hare Krsna ys BD

Yes Brajeshwara, you will find that is what all the quasi-intelligent pandits will say. They will set up a couple straw men like "self-appointed ritviks" and "ecclesiastical gurus", so easy to indicate their obvious deficiency of character and sastric standing. But this does not hide the subtle but tacit overarching implication from the first utterance, that there was some major deficiency in the system that His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami set up, used himself, and left for posterity. Ritvik. I am not implying any personal level of strict following of rules and regs. I am simply stating the siddhanta according to Srila Prabhupada, and using that to illustrate why certain things people proclaim, especially regarding his own mission, are garbage speculations and nothing more. You'll notice a pretty good smokescreen has been thrown up by all these tangential discussions but my original question to the person, "Krsna", which was simple and straightforward, has gone unanswered. By the way, I never implied KC is all about rules and regs. But everything I said regarding their usage and efficacy is straight outta Prabhupada, so if you got a problem with that take it up w/him. I also clearly stated that it was up to the individuals conscience to determine how strict a person needs to follow for their own level. I hate the way people don't even read what I write, and then write a paragraph like you did and make it look like I took a position I never did. Please stop that. Hare Krsna ys BD

This is not the point. We each must follow the rules and regs strictly as as we are able to. Do or die. That is perfect. Perfection is following strictly according to one's own conscience. Only that will yield the fruit. And during that process there is no call for questioning a Mahabhagavat Acharya, and second guessing the methods of his institution now is there? So we follow strictly and then each of us, at a different point, will be granted access to the transcendental vision, and our ritual following remains largely the same from external vision, but becomes spontaneous in reality. Srila Prabhupada says this in Nectar of Devotion chap. 2 check it out. The point is when someone is not following strictly, it is to be assumed that they are advanced, for sometimes the advanced do not follow so strictly the rules and regs, still they are not to be derided. If it is found they are not advanced, but simply sahajya and a little lazy, then this should be pointed out when they preach in public. Hare Krsna ys BD

Sorry to have disturbed your mind Braj Prabhu, but all sentimentality aside, If you care to read painstakingly everything I said, and ALL of the purport of both CC verses I mentioned, you will see that I stick with facts, and try to illicit a discussion. There is no abuse here, unless you consider the destruction of a mental illusion to be abuse. It just gets my goat when I actually point out where someone is mistaken in philosophy, and the recipient just defends the indefensible by cherry picking. I thought we were supposed to be looking forward to discovering where the truth was hidden for us. This is not a fashion show, a beauty pageant, or a popularity contest. Pride should be left at the door of spiritual discussions if possible. It is such a simple concept. Anyone who claims to be a disciple of an Acharya will continue to appear to follow all of the rules and regs, even when spontaneously engaged in exalted raganuga sadhana. This is a very clear cut method of determining whether or not someone is cheating. There is no talk against any of the "devotional" rules and regs, nor is there any talk against principles of management of the matha, especially when the Acharya said there is to be NO CHANGE in management. The advanced souls may skip being formally initiated all together. They would never speak of the ceremony as unimportant, and unnecessary considering how many millions of conditioned jivas will require this as part of their sadhana of reducing their offenses to the holy name. Especially not in front of disciples of another Acharya who set things up exactly so. Don't shoot the messenger please. Better to spend some energy scrounging up some old clothes to cover the Emperor. It is cold out today. Can't anyone else see this?

It sure is easy to cherry pick when one lives atop an Ivory tower. A neophyte follows strictly every detailed nuance of each order given by his Spiritual Master. Rules and Regs are the life. If someone is so conditioned that their spiritual master institutionalizes them, that should be considered the necessary mercy, and every rule and procedure followed to the T. From this strict sometimes sweet and sometimes bitter Vaidhi Sadhana, one naturally makes a transition to Raganuga sadhana, apparently performing the same activities, following the same rules and regs, but subjectively that bhakta has the sense of engaging in spontaneous activity. Inconceivable but true, this is mentioned in the Nectar of Devotion. So anyone who is "no longer interested" in some procedure that an Acharya considered important enough to include in the sadhana offered to his disciples, they have become asara or useless to that particular mission, and certainly have not passed through vaidhi bhakti sadhana, forget being in anyway authorized or deserving of holding opinions on methods of a great Acharya. Hare Krsna p.s. I take no liberties, I just do not speak pleasantly as if in social company, if I see the truth I talk about it, palatable or not, false ego's notwithstanding, especially in a place where people go for "spiritual discussion".

Jaya Prabhu Such an attitude benefits you and the one who was willing to set their self aside for some time, and give nice Siksa. Positive re-enforcement. Recently I have been contemplating on how even prakrta neophyte disicples can provide relevant siksa quite easily from time to time. I am discouraged at the tendency that some have to label such person's Siksa Guru. They are in actuality a Disciple of a Guru, who is providing Siksa under guidance. There is a world of difference between a disciple giving Siksa, and a Guru giving Siksa. The disciple may not yet be an unalloyed and advanced devotee, which are the qualifications for one to be considered "A Spiritual Master" or "A Siksa (instructing) Guru" Srila Prabhupada puts it like this. In the CC Adi 1.34 Purport. Key phrase, "instructing spiritual master is a manifestation of Krsna". A neophyte disciple may be overshadowed by the internal potency as a faithful servant of his Guru, and may give relevant Siksa from time to time, but they are certainly not yet to be considered a manifestation of Krsna. And for those who poo-poo (not you Braj Prabhu) the need for formal initiation... See CC Adi 1.35 Purport Srila Prabhupada used to say that accepting the Spiritual Master is initiation proper, and the ceremony is a formality. But that both were transcendental, and according to the CC, for nitya baddha jivas, necessary. But here he specifically separates accepting a spiritual master and being initiated. Why be redundant, if his only position is that accepting the instruction of a spiritual master is totally equivalent to being initiated? For most conditioned souls, formal initiation is important for advancement in offenseless chanting. It is just so. Hare Krsna ys BD

Hare Krsna Caturbahu dasa B.R. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada. Nice reply to the guest in need. I wonder how entities like George the Cat and little Ginger who was hit by a passing car fit into the scheme after hearing their human caretakers chanting "Hare Krsna" to them so often. Anyhow, there is an interesting thread discussion I am involved in on this forum. It is titled "Response to "Krsna" regarding Initiation". It all started when I responded to something "Krsna" said on the topic of "origin of the living entity". His statements and purpose seemed off topic and I had to question the origin of authority by which he made his claims. A bunch of other people have already weighed in, and it has become quite lively. See you there? Hare Krsna ys B.M.Devarisi

Well spoken Braj Prabhu. I am only compelled to speak when I believe someone is in danger of 1. confusing disciples of Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon by apparently (seemingly or otherwise) contradicting Srila Prabhupada's instructions for his disciples. 2. in the same vein, in danger of committing a pretty big offense by doing so, so maybe my perspective added might prompt them to choose a different course. I do hope I am not missing the mark here, I don't want to DISTURB anyone's faith, unless they are actually only faithful to their speculative mind, believe they are a disciple of a Guru when they are not, and go around expounding on this and that like an authority. Then, disturbing that misplaced faith is actually a favor to someone. If they see that and appreciate it, I have done some service to my Guru. If they reject me, then I am to consider them not interested in being even a momentary student to my teacher mode, and I am to leave them be respecting their free will. I haven't heard any actual responses from the people who's positions I addressed, so I will give myself the benefit of the doubt, and continue my vigilant service. Hare Krsna ys BD

If we read CC Madhya 15 107-108, we can see exactly Srila Prabhupada performed a formal initiation ceremony for his disciples. Not all who are born in the family of dog eaters are conditioned souls. Liberated souls can take the holy name and complete all 9 processes and acheive perfect love of Krsna. Conditioned souls are mercifully given a process by which they can come to the point of chanting WITHOUT OFFENSE. Proper initiation according to the injunctions in the scripture by a bonafide spiritual master is an essential part of this process, as it is a gateway to authorized arcana vigraha, the fourth process, the one that helps all the conditioned souls like me and YOU to progress nicely out of our neophyte dilemnas. And you can argue with Srila Prabhupada's decision to authorize ritvik priests to arrange diksa initiation completely without his involvement while he was still walking the earth, that doesn't change the historical fact of it, nor the fact that he called this ritvik representation, and appointed others to carry on that system. This is so apparent it is obvious to me. Of course if one is starting one's own branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya, then you can choose how to initiate, and "no ritviks needed" is fine with me, you go for yours. It just seems inappropriate to comment in a contradicting fashion on some other Acharya's system where his disciples are still following those rules. As Acharya of your own mission, you ought to understand that neophytes faith is easily swayed, and to contradict their chosen Acharya is counterproductive to your sweet Lord's mission. Ok? Hare Krsna ys BD

Sorry Beggar, I beg you to go back and read the first post that started my response which was in another thread as indicated and written by one who calls himself "Krsna". Then read what Shakti Fan wrote, and all will become apparent to you. Hare Krsna

Dear Prabhu, I was using the foundational meaning of the word apparent which is according to all dictionaries, if you check their first and second definitions, similar to webster's. 1. open to view : visible 2. clear or manifest to the understanding <reasons that are readily apparent> In no way was I implying the secondary definition of apparent, where it only appears on the surface to be one way, but illusion may be covering the truth. So perhaps I should have used the word obvious. But I thought it would be obvious how I was using the word apparent. The secondary definition of the word apparent applies to what happened when you looked at my first post and missed the corrolation. You had a preconceived mental structure which did not allow you to read thoroughly and instead what was APPARENT to you, and led you to write your first post to me, was actually not the case, and you missed the reality because of that preconceived and prejudiced mental structure (aka illusion) that blocked your view. So yes, if our desire is to view what is obviously appearing this requires assistance from the Supreme Lord's internal potency. If we desire to see anything contrary to what is obviously appearing, he readily assists that desire by his servant Maha Maya, and we get some personal illusion. So simple, yet so hard to deal with when we have mixed motivation. Sorry to say I am still flip flopping a bit myself, please don't take this as some offensive fault finding, just stating the obvious from personal ongoing experience. Hare Krsna ys BD