niranjan

Guys and gals, Krishna advices us to be sattvic . So let us indulge in the sattvic vaada , as a means of argumentation and discussion, and keep away from the rajasic jalpa and the tamasic Vitandaa, as is taught by Vedic philosophy and the Nyaaya Sutras.

Let everyone study Vaada, and implement them. This will go a long way in vastly improving the quality of this forum, and get rid of negative discussions.

And all those who do not do so, will be sinners or error prone in the eyes of Krishna.

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Vasishta to Prince Rama.

Yoga Vasishta Ramayan (II-18) says:

Though human in origin, an exposition of truth is to be accepted; otherwise even what is regarded as divine revelation is to be rejected. Even a young boy's words are to be accepted if they are words of wisdom; else reject it like straw even if uttered by Brahma the creator."

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Sri Sankara, the famous Advaita philosopher, makes this point in his commentary on the Bhagavad Gita 18.66:

" ...... The appeal to the infallibility of the Vedic injunction is misconceived. The infallibility in question refers only to the unseen force or apurva, and is admissable only in regard to matters not confined to the sphere of direct perceptions etc. ..... Even a hundred statements of sruti to the effect that fire is cold and non-luminous won't prove valid. If it does make

such a statement, its import will have to be interpreted differently. Otherwise , validity won't attach to it. Nothing in conflict with the means of valid cognition or with its own statement may be imputed to sruti."

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Vacaspati Misra, the author of Vamati, says, "Even one thousand scriptural statements cannot transform a jar into a piece of cloth".

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We must take up the study of the superconscious state just as any other science. On reason we must have to lay our foundation, we must follow reason as far as it leads, and when reason fails, reason itself will show us the way to the highest plane. When you hear a man say, “I am inspired” , and then talk irrationally, reject it. Why? Because these three states-instinct, reason, and superconsciousness , or the unconscious, conscious, and superconscious states-belong to one and the same mind. There are not three minds in one man, but one state of it develops into the others. Instinct develops into reason, and reason into the transcendental consciousness; therefore, not one of the states contradicts the others. Real inspiration never contradicts reason, but fulfils it. Just as you find the great prophets saying, “ I come not to destroy but to fulfil” , so inspiration always comes to fulfil reason, and is in harmony with it.

---Swami Vivekananda

Is religion to justify itself by the discoveries of reason, through which every other concrete science justifies itself? Are the same methods of investigation which we apply to sciences and knowledge outside, to be applied to the science of Religion ? In my opinion, this must be so, and I am also of opinion that the sooner it is done the better. If a religion is destroyed by such investigations, it was then all the time useless, unworthy superstition; and the sooner it goes the better. I am thoroughly convinced that its destruction would be the best thing that could happen. All that is dross will be taken off, no doubt, but the essential parts of religion will emerge triumphant out of this investigation. Not only will it be made scientific, as scientific, at least, as any of the conclusions of physics or chemistry, but will have greater strength, because physics or chemistry has no internal mandate to vouch for its truth, which religion has.

-----Swami Vivekananda

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Believe nothing, merely because you have been told it, or because it is traditional or because you yourselves have imagined it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for your teacher. But whatever after due consideration and analysis you find to be conducive to the good , the benefit, the welfare of all beings, that doctrine , believe and cling to and take it as your guide.

- Buddha

The Nyaaya Sutras

The Nyaaya Sutras are said to have been composed by Gotama (also sometimes referred to as Akshapaada or Gautama Akshapaada) sometime around 550 B.C.E., and is one of the Shad Darshana or Six Branches of Vedic Philosophy (the others being Vaisheshika, Sankhya, Yoga, Purva Mimamsa and Uttara Mimamsa a.k.a. Vedanta). Although it has been greatly overshadowed by the presently popular schools of Yoga and Vedanta, scholars understand that Nyaaya is the foundation of all the other Darshanas, for it expounds the means whereby one may determine the truth in regards to any particular subject matter. Therefore, it is not uncommon to find many references to Nyaaya principles in all the other Darshana Sutras, and many of the arguments put forth in those Sutras rely upon Nyaaya-style reasoning. Thus, for example, when we read in the Brahma Sutras (Vedanta) short, almost cryptic phrases like: "On account of uniformity of teaching" (I:10), we can only correctly understand it if we have a solid background knowledge in the techniques of Nyaaya, for the statement is actually a condensed part of a syllogism, namely, a Reason (as described above). It is my personal opinion that if people spent more time on Nyaaya as a preparation, then the time later spent on Scriptural Study, Yoga and Meditation would be much more fruitful.

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The second chapter of the first book of the Nyaaya Sutras discusses the various kinds of kathaa or dialogue as well as the different types of argumentation that can arise during them. I present a partial summary of the contents of that chapter below.

Vaada (discussion) is that kind of dialogue in which a thesis (paksha) and an anti-thesis (prati-paksha) regarding the same subject are advanced by opposing sides. Each side seeks to support their position and defeat that of their opponent by means of taking recourse to proofs (pramaana) and syllogistic reasoning (avayavaa). The overall purpose of Vaada for both parties is to discover the truth – whether they ‘win’ or ‘lose’ the argument is of little to no importance. For this reason, Vaada is traditionally associated with the quality of sattva or purity.

By ‘proofs’, something very specific is meant, and this is directly related to how syllogistic reasoning is to be employed. The system of Nyaaya recognizes four primary means of acquiring right knowledge, also referred to as ‘proof’ or ‘pramaanas’. These are:

1. Perception: This is that knowledge which arises from the contact of a power of perception (indriya) with its object (artha). The qualifications of a perception are:

• (a) It must be determinate.
  (b) It must not be prefigured by linguistic constructs imposed by the mind.
  © It must not be based on an illusion or deception of any kind.

2. Inference: This is that knowledge gained of a thing through reasoning based on a prior perception. The kinds of inference are:

• (a) From cause to effect: We see dark clouds and infer that there will be rain.
  (b) From effect to cause: We see a swollen river and infer that there was rain.
  © From concomitance: We see smoke and infer that there is also fire.

3. Comparison: This is that knowledge gained of a thing through its similarity or dissimilarity to a thing previously known.

4. Verbal Testimony: This is that knowledge gained through the declaration of a reliable person. It can refer to two types of thing:

• (a) To that which is seen, i.e. that which can be directly verified through personal observation.
  (b) To that which is unseen, i.e. that which cannot be directly verified through personal observation.

Nyaaya also accepts the existence of other means of acquiring right knowledge, but sees them as being included under the four above-mentioned categories. These four, however, have been chosen for their role in how the syllogism is formed.

The logically correct syllogism consists of five members (avayavaa). They are:

1. Proposition: This is the statement of that which is to be proven. In traditional discussions, the proposition is typically one derived from a scriptural statement of which the meaning is not clear and which is to be clarified through dialogue with the learned. For this reason, it is aligned with Verbal Testimony.

2. Reason: This is the grounds upon which the Proposition is based, usually formulated as a general rule. The Reason is directly connected with Inference.

3. Example: This is a familiar instance which demonstrates the reliability of the Reason and which (usually) anyone can verify for themselves. The Example, therefore, is based upon Perception.

4. Application: This is the demonstration of the way in which the Reason pertains to the case in the Proposition. The Application is the result of Comparison.

5. Conclusion: This is the restatement of the Proposition in light of the Reason, Example and Application. It is the summary of the entire syllogism, and is therefore connected to all the means of acquiring right knowledge.

Example 1:

Proposition: There is fire on the hill.

Reason: For there is smoke coming from the hill, and wherever there is smoke, there is fire.

Example: That wherever there is smoke, there is fire can be seen in the case of a kitchen.

Application: Now, just as in the case of a kitchen, there is smoke coming from the hill.

Conclusion: Therefore, there is fire on the hill.

Example 2:

Proposition: Sound is non-eternal.

Reason: For sound is produced, and whatever is produced is non-eternal.

Example: That whatever is produced is non-eternal can be seen in the case of a pot.

Application: Now, just as in the case of a pot, sound is something which is produced.

Conclusion: Therefore, sound is non-eternal.

Jalpa (wrangling) is that kind of dialogue in which one or both of the parties involved is primarily interested in victory rather than establishing the truth. For this reason, it is traditionally associated with the quality of rajas or passion. It is similar to Vaada in that both sides are advancing a thesis which is supported by proof and syllogistic reasoning. In Jalpa, however, one or both of the opponents resorts to the use of less-than-honourable tactics to defeat the argument of the opposition. These are:

1. Quibbling: This is intentionally misinterpreting something the other party has said. It has three primary forms:

• (a) Verbal Quibble: To take a word or phrase as indicating something that the speaker clearly did not intend but which he technically did not exclude.
  (b) Generalising Quibble: To argue against a general rule based on a rare or freak exception.
  © Figurative Quibble: To take something the speaker said literally when it was intended figuratively or metaphorically and vice versa.

2. Futile Rejoinder: This is to oppose an argument which is clearly formally correct on the grounds that its Reason does not warrant the Conclusion due to some extraneous or exaggerated defect.

Vitandaa (cavil) is that kind of dialogue in which the only interest of one of the parties involved is to attack and defame the other. For this reason, it is traditionally associated with the quality of tamas or ignorance. It is formally similar to Jalpa, except one side, rather than setting up and defending an anti-thesis, simply resorts to attacking the thesis of his opponent by any means available, honourable or dishonourable.

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Vaada: discussion; a kind of debate between two parties -- the exponent and the opponent -- on a particular subject. Each party tries to establish its own position and to refute that of the other, arguing against any theory propounded by the other. Both, however, are trying to arrive at the truth by applying the methods of reasoning and logic. This is an effective and efficient way to reach valid knowledge if both parties are honest and free from prejudices.

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Well, Iskcon has done a lot of good charity work in India. Iskcon is also instrumental in bringing the message of Krishna to the whole world.

What Iskcon leaders have to do is to imbibe some good management and leadership skills, and get rid of the bad elements in Iskcon, which clearly goes against the teachings of Krishna.

...and you should be commended for your efforts to help these people!

 

"Vasudhaiva kudumbhakam." - The whole world is one family. ( vedic quote)

 

Stay on your thread, maybe someone who really cares about bahais will join your campaign. Then you can set things right, set up a bahai nation, and persecute the imams, isnt that how it works, never again (unless we are on top).

Its not that I lack compassion, but to see things as they are means that one sees the whole picture, and casts equal blame for the calamity called kali yuga.

 

And may I know on what authority are you telling me to stick to my thread and not comment on other threads?

I am not a Bahai, but as a human being, I condemn the Islamic and Iranian persecution of Bahais, in the form of killing, abduction of Bahai women, physical torture, mutilation, destruction of Bahai property, denial of human rights and humiliation.

Well ,the Eternity Process is very easy, and many people have done that, Indian and foreign .

You should know meditation prior to doing the Eternity Process , though.

And you should be more than 21 years of age.

Well they weren't very civilized when they persecuted the Bahais as I have stated in my thread " Islamic persecution of the Bahais."

Do you think that is civilized as well and support that ?

Atrocities committed by Islamic fanatics on the Bahais.

The Bab is the first prophet of the Bahai religion.

In 1844 Siyyid `Alí-Muhammad of Shiraz, Iran proclaimed that he was "the Báb" (Arabic: الباب‎ "the Gate"), after a Shi`a religious concept. His followers were therefore known as Bábís. As the Báb's teachings spread, which the Islamic clergy saw as a threat, Bábís came under increased persecution, at times being forced to choose between renouncing their beliefs or being killed. Several military confrontations took place between government and Bábí forces. The Báb himself was imprisoned and eventually executed in 1850.

Friedrich W. Affolter writes: “Initially, the mullas hoped to stop the Bábí movement from spreading by denouncing its followers as apostates and enemies of God. These denouncements resulted in mob attacks, public executions and torture of early Bábís. When the Bábís (in accordance with Koranic principles) organized to defend themselves, the government sent troops into a series of engagements that resulted in heavy losses on both sides. The Báb himself was imprisoned from 1846 until 1850 and eventually publicly executed. In August 1852, two deranged Bábís attempted to kill the Shah in revenge for the execution of the Báb. This resulted in an extensive pogrom during which more than 20,000 Bábís – among them 400 Shí‘i mullas who had embraced the Bábí teachings – lost their lives.

As the result of the Báb's execution in 1850 by a firing squad in Tabriz, an assassination attempt was instigated on the King of Persia, Nasser-al-Din Shah, two years later by a handful of angry Bábís. Although the assassins claimed they were working alone, the entire Bábí community was blamed, and a slaughter of several thousand Bábís followed. Many of the Bábís who were not killed, including Bahá'u'lláh, were imprisoned in the Síyáh-Chál (Black Pit), an underground dungeon of Tehran. Bahá'u'lláh himself was found to be innocent of complicity in the assassination plot, but remained in the Síyáh-Chál over four months.

An Austrian officer, Captain von Goumoens, working in the court of the Shah at the time, gave the following account after signing his resignation:

"[i saw] ones who, with gouged-out eyes, must eat, on the scene of the deed, their own amputated ears; or whose teeth are torn out with inhuman violence by the hand of the executioner; or whose bare skulls are simply crushed by blows from a hammer...As for the end itself, they hang the scorched and perforated bodies by their hands and feet to a tree head downwards, and now every Persian may try his marksmanship to his heart’s content... When I read over again, what I have written, I am overcome by the thought that those who are with you in our dearly beloved Austria may doubt the full truth of the picture, and accuse me of exaggeration. Would to God that I had not lived to see it!... At present I never leave my house, in order not to meet with fresh scenes of horror... I will no longer maintain my connection with the scene of such crimes.”

Early 20th century and the Pahlavi Dynasty

Starting in the twentieth century, in addition to repression that impacted individual Bahá'ís, centrally-directed campaigns that targeted the entire Bahá'í community and institutions were initiated. Some of these persecutions were recorded by missionaries who were in the areas at the time of the massacres. In one case in Yazd in 1903 more than 100 Bahá'ís were killed. Later on Bahá'í schools, such as the Tarbiyat boys' and girl's schools in Tehran, were closed in the 1930s and '40s, Bahá'í marriages were not recognized and Bahá'í literature was censored.

During the reign of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, due to the growing nationalism and the economic difficulties in the country, the Shah gave up control over certain religious affairs to the clergy of the country. Among other things, the power sharing resulted in a campaign of persecution against the Bahá'ís.Akhavi has suggested that it is likely that the government had hoped that by orchestrating a movement against the Bahá'ís it could serve to obscure the fact that revenues obtained by the distribution of oil from western oil companies was going to be too low for the growing nationalistic sentiment; it would also serve to gain the support of the clergy for their foreign policy.The approved and coordinated the anti-Bahá'í campaign to incite public passion against the Bahá'ís started in 1955 and included the spreading of anti-Bahá'í propaganda in national radio stations and official newspapers.

During the the month of Ramadan in 1955, Sheikh Mohammad Taqi Falsafi, a populist preacher, started one of the highest-profile anti-Bahá'í propaganda schemes. After receiving permission from the Shah to state anti-Bahá'í rhetoric in his sermons, he encouraged other clergy to discuss the Bahá'í issue in their sermons.These sermons caused mob violence against Bahá'ís; Bahá'í properties were destroyed, Bahá'í centres were looted, Bahá'í cemeteries desecrated, Bahá'ís were killed, some hacked to pieces, Bahá'í women were abducted and forced to marry Muslims, and Bahá'ís were expelled and dismissed from schools and employment.

Bahá'ís continue to be persecuted in Islamic countries, especially Iran, where over 200 believers were executed between 1978 and 1998.

Administrative Council of Egypt, on December 16 2006 , ruled the government may not recognize the Bahá'í Faith in official identification numbers. Consequently, Egyptian Bahá'ís are unable to obtain government documents, including ID cards, birth, death, marriage or divorce certificates, or passports, all of which require a person's religion to be listed. They also cannot be employed, educated, treated in hospitals or vote, among other things. The Egyptian Initiative for Private Rights stated that the press release issued by the Chief Judge of the Supreme Court did not respond to any of the evidence or arguments presented by the EIPR in the case, and that the release only discussed the tenets and beliefs of the Bahá'í Faith, which should have not have affected the court's decision.

Since the Islamic Revolution of 1979, Iranian Bahá'ís have regularly had their homes ransacked or been banned from attending university or holding government jobs, and several hundred have received prison sentences for their religious beliefs, most recently for participating in study circles. Bahá'í cemeteries have been desecrated and property seized and occasionally demolished, including the House of Mírzá Buzurg, Bahá'u'lláh's father. The House of the Báb in Shiraz has been destroyed twice, and is one of three sites to which Bahá'ís perform pilgrimage.

Even more recently the situation of Bahá'ís has worsened; the United Nations Commission on Human Rights revealed an October 2005 confidential letter from Command Headquarters of the Armed Forces of Iran to identy Bahá'ís and to monitor their activities and in November 2005 the stat-run and influential Kayhan newspaper, whose managing editor is appointed by Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, ran nearly three dozen articles defaming the Bahá'í Faith.

Due to these actions, the Special Rapporteur of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights stated on March 20, 2006 that she "also expresses concern that the information gained as a result of such monitoring will be used as a basis for the increased persecution of, and discrimination against, members of the Bahá'í faith, in violation of international standards. ... The Special Rapporteur is concerned that this latest development indicates that the situation with regard to religious minorities in Iran is, in fact, deteriorating."

Bernard Lewis states that the Muslim laity and Islamic authorities have always had great difficulty in accommodating post-Islamic monotheistic religions such as the Bahá'í Faith, since on one hand the followers of such religions cannot be dismissed either as benighted heathens, like the polytheists of Asia and the animists of Africa, nor as outdated precursors, like the Jews and Christians. Moreover, their very existence presents a challenge to the Islamic doctrine of the perfection and finality of Muhammad's revelation.

Statements by some Iranian writers and academics

The real truth is though that no one gives a damn what happens to Bahá'ís.”

I'm just fascinated by the fact that we -- nearly every non-Bahá'í Iranian -- do not really consider Bahá'ís as Iranian. We consider them bastard children of British colonialism aiming to destroy Islam, specifically Shi'ite Islam. They're not even 'other' Iranians. We see them as something else. Or maybe we don't see them at all.”

Go ahead. Go and shed a tear for Palestinians. They deserve it. Israel is crushing them like ants. But when you get a chance, do give a **** about Bahá'ís too. You want a noble cause? You want to scream and shout about injustice? I'm telling you... Bahá'ís have been really underrated as far as causes go.”

The readers can find more material related to this in the thread " The real cause of Islamic terrorism " posted in the Hinduism forum by me.

The Three Levels of Consciousness

From Intuition for Starters by Swami Kriyananda ( J. Donald Walters ,a direct disciple of Paramahamsa Yogananda, the author of 'Autobiography of a Yogi' )

The totality of our consciousness is comprised of three levels: the subconscious, the conscious, and the superconscious. These levels of consciousness represent differing degrees of intensity of awareness…

The first level, the subconscious, is relatively dim in awareness: it is the stuff of which dreams are made. We may think of it as the repository of all remembered experiences, impressions left on the mind by those experiences, and tendencies awakened or reinforced by those impressions. Every experience we've ever had, every thought, every impression of loss or gain, resides in the subconscious mind and determines our patterns of thought and behavior far more than we realize.

The subconscious, being unrestricted by the rigid demands of logic, permits a certain flow of ideas. This flow may border on intuition, but if the ideas are too circumscribed by subjectivity, they won't correspond with the external world around us. When we dream at night, we are mainly operating on the subconscious level...

The subconscious mind can all too easily intrude itself on our conscious awareness, tricking us into thinking we're getting intuitive guidance, when actually we're merely being influenced by past impressions and unfulfilled desires. The subconscious mind is in some ways close to the superconscious, where real intuition resides. Both represent a flow of awareness without logical obstructions. The subconscious is therefore more open to the intuitions of the superconscious, and sometimes receives them, though usually mixed with confusing imagery. To be really clear in the guidance we receive is difficult, but very important. Calamitous decisions have been make in the belief that one was drawing on higher guidance, when in fact one was responding only to subconscious preconditioning.

The next level of consciousness from which we receive guidance is the conscious state, the rational awareness that usually guides our daily decisions. When we receive input from the senses, analyze the facts, and makes decisions based on this information, we are using this conscious level of guidance. This process is also strongly affected by the opinions of others, which can cloud our ability to draw true guidance.

Dividing and separating the world into either/or categories, the conscious level of awareness is problem-oriented. It's difficult to be completely certain of decisions drawn from this level, because the analytical mind can see all the possible solutions. But ultimately it doesn't have the ability to distinguish which one is best. If we rely exclusively on the conscious mind, we may find ourselves lacking in certainty and slipping into a state of perpetual indecision…

Intuition and heightened mental clarity flow from superconscious awareness. The conscious mind is limited by its analytical nature, and therefore sees all things as separate and distinct. We may be puzzled by a certain situation, but because it seems unrelated to other events, it's difficult to draw a clear course of action. By contrast, because the superconscious mind is unitive and sees all things as part of a whole, it can readily draw solutions. In superconsciousness the problem and the solution are seen as one, as though the solution was a natural outgrowth from the problem.

The famous scientist , J B S Haldane, who gave up his British citizenship and became an Indian and settled in Calcutta, observed that the Dasavataras are a true sequential depiction of the great unfolding of evolution.

If you analyse the avatars of Vishnu , you can observe an uncanny similarity to the biological theory of evolution of life on earth.

The first avatar of Vishnu is Matsya or fish.( According to science, life originated in water).

The second avatar of Vishnu is Kurma or tortoise.( the evolution of the fish to the amphibean tortoise).

The third avatar of Vishnu is Varaha or the boar. ( the evolution of the amphibean to the strictly land animal).

The fourth avatar of Vishnu is Narasimha or the man-lion. ( the evolution of the land animal to a humanoid form with animalistic charecterestics ).

The fifth avatar of Vishnu is Varaha or dwarf ( the evolution of the animal-man to purely human in dwarf form).

The sixth avatar of Vishnu is Parashurama ( the evolution of the dwarf to a physically well-developed and ferocious warrior).

The seventh avatar of Vishnu is Rama ( the evolution of the ferocious warrior to Rama, who is considered as the ideal man or the maryada purushottama and the embodiment of morality , ethics and righteousness).

The eighth avatar of Vishnu is Krishna ( the evolution of Rama , the ideal man to Krishna who is considered as the ideal yogi, the superman who is known for his manysidedness and allrounded character , as I mentioned in the thread 'Krishna : Zorba the Buddha' in the Hinduism forum).

The animal evolution and development connotations bear striking resemblances to the modern scientific theory of Evolution.

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Yeah, and also the atrocities committed by the Iranian muslim fanatics on the Bahais, and which is supported by the state itself should be condemned by all national governments.

The famous scientist , J B S Haldane, who gave up his British citizenship and became an Indian and settled in Calcutta, observed that the Dasavataras are a true sequential depiction of the great unfolding of evolution.

If you analyse the avatars of Vishnu , you can observe an uncanny similarity to the biological theory of evolution of life on earth.

The first avatar of Vishnu is Matsya or fish.( According to science, life originated in water).

The second avatar of Vishnu is Kurma or tortoise.( the evolution of the fish to the amphibean tortoise).

The third avatar of Vishnu is Varaha or the boar. ( the evolution of the amphibean to the strictly land animal).

The fourth avatar of Vishnu is Narasimha or the man-lion. ( the evolution of the land animal to a humanoid form with animalistic charecterestics ).

The fifth avatar of Vishnu is Varaha or dwarf ( the evolution of the animal-man to purely human in dwarf form).

The sixth avatar of Vishnu is Parashurama ( the evolution of the dwarf to a physically well-developed and ferocious warrior).

The seventh avatar of Vishnu is Rama ( the evolution of the ferocious warrior to Rama, who is considered as the ideal man or the maryada purushottama and the embodiment of morality , ethics and righteousness).

The eighth avatar of Vishnu is Krishna ( the evolution of Rama , the ideal man to Krishna who is considered as the ideal yogi, the superman who is known for his manysidedness and allrounded character , as I mentioned in the thread 'Krishna : Zorba the Buddha' in the Hinduism forum).

The animal evolution and development connotations bear striking resemblances to the modern scientific theory of Evolution.

The famous scientist , J B S Haldane, who gave up his British citizenship and became an Indian and settled in Calcutta, observed that the Dasavataras are a true sequential depiction of the great unfolding of evolution.

If you analyse the avatars of Vishnu , you can observe an uncanny similarity to the biological theory of evolution of life on earth.

The first avatar of Vishnu is Matsya or fish.( According to science, life originated in water).

The second avatar of Vishnu is Kurma or tortoise.( the evolution of the fish to the amphibean tortoise)

The third avatar of Vishnu is Varaha or the boar. ( the evolution of the amphibean to the strictly land animal).

The fourth avatar of Vishnu is Narasimha or the man-lion. ( the evolution of the land animal to a humanoid form with animalistic charecterestics ).

The fifth avatar of Vishnu is Varaha or dwarf ( the evolution of the animal-man to purely human in dwarf form).

The sixth avatar of Vishnu is Parashurama ( the evolution of the dwarf to a physically well-developed and ferocious warrior).

The seventh avatar of Vishnu is Rama ( the evolution of the ferocious warrior to Rama, who is considered as the ideal man or the maryada purushottama and the embodiment of morality , ethics and righteousness).

The eighth avatar of Vishnu is Krishna ( the evolution of Rama , the ideal man to Krishna who is considered as the ideal yogi, the superman who is known for his manysidedness and allrounded character , as I mentioned in the thread 'Krishna : Zorba the Buddha').

The animal evolution and development connotations bear striking resemblances to the modern scientific theory of Evolution.

Are you kidding me? Have you read the Manu Smriti? It was created by Brahmins and was IMPOSED on the entire soceity when they gained power with those Rajputs that supported them.

I am no supporter of the Manu smriti, but check some verses of the Manu Smriti itself......

In the manu smriti , when it comes to stance of hereditary caste system, the verse below is believed to sanction support for vocational non-hereditary caste system.

"As the son of Shudra can attain the rank of a Brahmin, the son of Brahmin can attain rank of a shudra. Even so with him who is born of a Vaishya or a Kshatriya" (X: 65)

Also I have read in the Manu Smriti that no sin is incurred if a shudra kills a Brahmin who is out to kill him , in self -defence.

Through this I am not trying to justify the manu smriti, only trying to state its stance with regard to a hereditary caste system, considering

the fact that it is the most pro-Brahmin manual.

Once again you are making a mistake by confusing varna with caste. If you read the descriptions of the different Varnas in the Gita, it is clear that the Brahmana is exalted over the rest.

 

 

 

 

The Gita only describes the traits of the Brahmana, which is contemplation of God, straightforwardness,control of the senses, purity of mind and body, and adherence to truth, and anyone who practices this can be a Brahmana.

Nowhere in the Gita is it found to be supporting a hereditary caste system.

Sree Narayana Guru, an enlightened master hailing from Kerala and from the Shudra caste , rebelled successfully against the Brahmins, and opened temples for the shudras and dalits and worked for their welfare and upliftment. He also established an order of monks or sannyasins whom he trained in meditation and yoga.

And from the testimony of one of his sannyasins , it was a rule in his time to chant verses from the Gita before taking lunch. From this it can be understood that he revered the Gita.

And it is a common sight to see the statues of Krishna alongside the statues of Sree Narayana Guru , in his institutions in south India.

The fact that a shudra spiritual master like him, who have staunchly challenged the Brahmins, still revered the Gita shows that there is no discriminatory verses whatsoever in the Gita,which upholds a birth based caste system.

Oh yes they did say that. I will find it and quote it for you.

Please do so immediately. Only after that will I accept your saying that Vivekananda and Aurobinda had said that the Gita had been tampered.

And I don't think there is any proof to show that the Brahmins have tampered the Gita.

Krishna himself in the Gita criticizes the flowery words of the Vedas, and opens the way to salvation to vaishyas, shudras and women.

If the Brahmins have tampered with it, they would have immediately removed these verses from the Gita, but we do not find it to be so.

Similarly in the Bhagavatam and the Mahabharatha, we find Krishna rebelling successfully against the worship of Indra by the Brahmins and humbling Indra.

Again if the Brahmins have tampered with these texts, we would not have found these episodes in Krishna's life.

We should understand that the Vaishnavas themselves, who worship Krishna as the Lord himself, would have found it a great blasphemy to tamper with the Gita or the Mahabharatha or the Bhagavatam, and hence for this reason I must say the Gita at the present moment is what it is 5000 years back.

He perhaps did that as Siddhartha, but definetely not when he became the Buddha.

Krishna,if you view his life in general, is a far cry from the other prophets like Buddha, Mahavira, Muhammad ,Jesus, Moses who lived an austere life of self-denial.

The charecterestic of Krishna's life is his many-sidedness. He was great as a musician, as a scholar,as a yogi, as a dancer, as a poet, as a soldier, as an administrator, as a philosopher and spiritual master, and as a gentleman.

Krishna , through out his life was known for his cheerfulness and his funloving nature and mischief . He stole the butter and ghee of the gopis, teased them and flirted with them, stole their clothes while they were bathing, sang songs in the moonlight(which he loved) and danced with them. He was also known for his sense of humour and cracked jokes spontaneously.

Can you imagine the Buddha dancing gaily with young women, or Jesus playing a flute or Muhammad singing songs in praise of nature and life or Moses cracking jokes?

And even though Krishna's life was a tragedy, he always faced life with non-attachment and equanimity, and a perpetual cheerful smile in his face to the very end.

As Osho says in his classic "Krishna :The man and his philosophy", Krishna represents a new order of humanity; Krishna combined in himself the spiritual charecterestics of Buddha, and the materialistic charecterestics of Zorba the Greek. He was himself steeped in non-attachment,yoga, equanimity of mind, spirituality and at the same time he enjoyed life to the maximum.He was in short Zorba the Buddha.

Krishna was the personification of his teaching,"The wise man is he who is intensely peaceful in the midst of intense action, and intensely active in the midst of intense peace."

Sri Dutta Gurumali, an Indian spiritual master, has stated that Kriishna was the greatest yogi the world has ever known, and the greatest bhogi(enjoyer of life) too that the world has ever known, in the last 5000 years.

Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, an Indian enlightened master, and who is the creator of the Art of Living Foundation , bases his institutions philosophy on this trait of Krishna, and has stated "God loves fun."

We all don't need to be staunch followers of Krishna, but let us assimilate this beautiful trait of Krishna, namely 'Zorba the Buddha.'

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Even Vivekananda and Sri Auribindo have stated that the Bhagavad Gita as we kow today is not the original. Vivekananda did his level best and went every where looking for the the original but could not find it.

 

I have read the ' Complete works of Vivekananda' and I don't recall reading anywhere Vivekananda stating that the Bhagavad Gita as we know today is not the original. In fact I recall reading Vivekananda profusely praising the Gita.

Heres what Aurobindo has to say about the Bhagavad Gita.......

"The Bhagavad-Gita is a true scripture of the human race a living creation rather than a book, with a new message for every age and a new meaning for every civilization." - Aurobindo

If the Bhagavad Gita was not the original as you are stating, then I don't think Vivekananda and Aurobindo would have been lavish in their praise for the Bhagavad Gita.

Hare Bolo!

 

Not that 'i' care about that but - is that correct?

 

So if someone goes to a mosque say in canada or the U.S. and - he isn't muslim - they shall be turned away? I have never visited any mosque so I don't know first hand - but - it just seems odd that such a thing might happen. [places like Makkah may be different] but we're talking 'places of worship' - never heard of it in my readings before either. Paths which claim to lead to God - then advocate an act that shows otherwise have to change - any lack of openess and desire to change is the shit end of the stick no matter who is holding it...

I have got this information that non-muslims can enter a mosque only with the prior permission of muslims from an article by a prominent Saudi Arabian Islamic scholar in the internet.

However I agree with you that Jagannath puri and all temples of Krishna , should be open to non-Indians as well, who are devotees of Krishna. There is no logical reason to bar them.

All Indian hindus should create awareness of this discrimination against non-Indian devotees of Krishna, and should put pressure on the temple authorities and officials, to reconsider the laws preventing non-Indian devotees from entering temples.

We have had many other traditions which came into being due to the particular needs of certain times, and which has been successfully opposed and eradicated by Hindu reformers in later times, when these traditions and laws were no longer relevant.

And this discrimination against non-Indians is one of them. If all Indian Hindus and foreign hindus pool in their efforts and spread awareness of this and put pressure on the temple authorities , we can easily get rid of this one as well , in time, just like the other irrevalent traditions and laws before it .

Which synagogues would that be? I don't think that anyone respectable is refused entry at any Hebrew house of worship. I'm not sure but I don't think that anyone is refused entry at a mosque. For sure no christian church refuses people entry [except mormons and their main temples].

 

 

I checked on google. Non-muslims can enter mosques only with prior permission of Muslims if they follow certain conditions . They are not allowed to enter the Sacred Mosque in Makkah.

As for your stating that anyone can enter synagogues, I am only glad about it. I believe that all devotees should be allowed to enter temples of worship of any religion.