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Everything posted by Tattvadasa

  1. And the Guru will not abuse or use his disciples for fame or wealth. He will not make a comfortable life for himself at the expense of his followers. His life will be an open book. He will put emphasis on flaming the small desire we may have inside. He will know how to bring to a head and help us to see our own shortcoming in a way that is palatable and helps us to improve. He will rarely humiate his disciple in front of others. He will treat his disciples like a loving father treats his children. And one of the most important things is a guru will respect his own disciples. Knowing that by the association of his disciples and their yearning to know about Krishna brings out his own Krishna Con. so he will thank his disciples for helping him to be Krishna Con. Gaurakisora das Babaji Maharaja used to refer to his own disciple as 'My Prabhu' 'my master' when refering to Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. The guru is one who never thinks himself guru. He only thinks himself servant of his own guru and servant of his disciples. the good qualities of Sri Guru are unlimited.. these are just a few.
  2. Good thinking tackle-berry. Dr. Arnold Joseph Toynbee (1889-1975) the great British historian. His massive research was published in 12 volumes between 1934 and 1961 as `A Study of History'. Author of several books, including Christianity: Among the Religions of the World and One World and India. Toynbee was a major interpreter of human civilization in the 20th century. "It is already becoming clear that a chapter which had a Western beginning will have to have an Indian ending if it is not to end in self-destruction of the human race. At this supremely dangerous moment in human history , the only way of salvation is the ancient Hindu way. Here we have the attitude and spirit that can make it possible for the human race to grow together in to a single family." The tolerance of Hinduism was recognized by Toynbee, who on many occasions contrasted the exclusivity of the Jewish religion, based on the Jewish belief that the Jews are the chosen people with the large tolerance of the Hindus and Buddhist. This plague of exclusiveness, he claims, was inherited by both the Christians and Muslims: hence their lamentable record. Yea they weren't all bad the British. It is too bad this is not the poplular version of India. Instead to this day all the negative stuff the missionaries imagined is still embedded in the psyche of most of us from the west.
  3. Yes I agree. The movie could have been more accurate. Telling the real story of religion on the planet can only help Mahaprabhus cause. The Vaishnavas have no reason to white wash anything. We have nothing to hide. Telliing the truth about the Abrahamic religions will help give us more dignity. The truth is on our side. 'And they shall know the truth and the truth shall release them from concocted religious influence'. As Prabhupada said, 'all religion comes from India'. When people learn the real evolution of western religion they will want to look back at the origins of religion. Such people will look at the Veda. Those with good piety will then naturally conclude the Srimad Bhagavatam is the cream of all religion. I am going to write the burning cross and suggest they do an accurate flash movie.
  4. Ok so bija seems to be bowing out in a dignified manner. But for those still watching here is some validation for what we are doing. Lets not forget Mahaprabhu himself engaged in such 'negative' activity. When the sankirtana was curtailed by the Kazi, Mahaprabhu organized cvil protest and he was not afraid to argue issues. CC Adi 17.6: By dint of pride in His education, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, not caring for anyone else, defeated all kinds of learned scholars while executing His studies. And he said... CC Adi 17.165: "Since you Muslims cannot bring killed cows back to life, you are responsible for killing them. Therefore you are going to hell; there is no way for your deliverance. CC Adi 17.166: "Cow-killers are condemned to rot in hellish life for as many thousands of years as there are hairs on the body of the cow. CC Adi 17.167: "There are many mistakes and illusions in your scriptures. Their compilers, not knowing the essence of knowledge, gave orders that were against reason and argument." And the same mistakes and illusion can be found in the other Abrahamic religious texts like the Bible and Torah. THere is nothing offensive about pointing this out.
  5. The historical facts are most all the the Bible is borrowed from other places. Many of the Old Testament stories were taken, or perhaps given, by the Zoroastrians. The doctrines and dogmas within Christianity can be found in previous cults of the time. They were all assimilated into Christianity in order to make the super hero god-man Jesus. The only original doctrine found within Christianity is the doctrine of original sin. http://www.burningcross.net/index.html
  6. Thank you for your input. As you know even in the spiritual world there is sometimes disagreement. Glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga.
  7. You call defeating in argument and logic those who put forward doctrines that breed Jihadists focusing on the negative? I fail to catch your logic here. What we are doing will help eliminate Jihadist mentality by destroying the dogmas and doctrines that breed it.
  8. If that were the attitude then Madhva Acharya would never have succeeded. Ramanuja Acharya would not have succeeded. Bhaktisiddhanta would not have succeeded.Baladeva Viyabhusana would not have validated our sampradaya. And on an on. You are underthinking and mimicking the attitude of those you defend and you obviously have not studied the history of Vaishnavism. Debate and defeating opposing theology has its roots in Vedic thought and has always been a way to broadcast Vaishnava movements and other Vedic rooted movements. We only point to individuals when it is absolutly necesary and stick to theologies and misconceptions and cut away at them. However of course on occasion we must name a fantatical individual who imbibes what he has learned from his scripture. I am sure no Christian would mind if we criticize persons such as Osama Bin Ladin. However when the same fanatacism is pointed out in Christianity we are the bad guys. We do not care for the politcally correct Rodney King 'can't we all just get along' sampradaya. Bible theology breeds fanatcism. But under-thinkers will have a hard time digesting this. Especially those sentimentally attached to the Bible story.
  9. In our humble opinion there is a very great segment of western society that has rejected religion altogether based on their dealings with the big three religions. They have recognized the absurdness of the theology at the basis of these religions and their complete disconnect from science and history. These are very intelligent free thinking people who respond very well to logic and reason. Many of them have very high morals and really do want the truth. Many have no understanding of Vaishnavism or Vedic thought and have simply dismissed it altogether as just another religion based on their dealings with the big three. It is really to them we are preaching. NOT to those who adhere to out dated religious systems like Christianity. That is not our audience. Mahaprabhu and his followers must find new ways to reach the masses and no section can be left out. Many people are turning to atheism. This seems to be the evolution of western society. So they must be approached in a different way in order to win them over. If they perceive we promote religious texts that are completely illogical they will at once put us in the category of fanatics. I believe Srila Prabhupada skimmed the cream of Christianity when he came to the west. I am sure there are still some to reach but I do not see that segment of society as a very fertile preaching ground at this time in history. And I know for a fact many young people are being swayed toward atheism because science and history is more and more debunkiing the myths of the Abrahamic relgions. While at the same time in recent history the same scientist are confirming the validity of the Veda. It is now accepted by most scholars and historians that the worship of Krishna pre-dates all others and the Veda is the oldest religious work on earth. Many archaeological discoveries in the past few decades is giving more and more credence to the Veda. We have much going for us at this time in history. So it may appear we are doing a lot of cutting. But that is just the nature of the jungle we are entering.
  10. To blame Jesus for the condition of western society is a big stretch of the imagination and I am not sure that is what our guest was alluding to. However to blame western society, imperialism and colonialism for India's degraded condition is not a stretch of the imagination by any means. It is not the single solitary reason for India's moral decay but it is a very large contributing factor. It is also now a contributing factor in India's new economy and growing wealth. Western based colonist and imperialist have always found ways to destroy cultures and then rebuild them, replacing the old cultures with the western version of civilization. The British destroyed the ancient Indian school system and let education lie idle for decades. And yes it was Christians who molded the modern education system we find in India today. Now the schools are teaching western curriculum and history. The village school system had vedic roots but was destroyed by the British invaders who were indeed all Christians. Where the schools taught eastern history from the Veda before the British arrived now they teach the Veda is myth. Where the schools taught Krishna and all the demigods were real personalities and historical persons they now teach all the Veda is a myth and all the characters mythical. However they teach Jesus is an historical person, they teach Jesus is not a myth and was a real live person. No they do not teach Christianity in the schools per-se they merely lay the seed of doubt about India's heritage teaching it is myth. This has caused many Indians to doubt their own heritage and be ashamed of it. It is a type of cultural genocide masquerading as modern education. Now all of India goes by the Christian calendar, takes Sunday off like all Christians do, celebrate the Christian New Year etc. etc. etc. In the not so recent past different cultures were destroyed by the sword, deities and temples destroyed, and people forced to convert. Now societies are being destroyed in a much more clever and seemingly human way. But it is the same old western mentality, our way is the best and everything else should be replaced by our system. "I say without fear of my figures being challenged successfully, that today India is more illiterate than it was fifty or a hundred years ago, and so is Burma, because the British administrators (all Christians) , when they came to India, instead of taking hold of things as they were, began to root them out. They scratched the soil and began to look at the root, and left the root like that, and the beautiful tree perished (in other words they destroyed the school system). The village schools were not good enough for the British administrator, so he came out with his program. Every school must have so much paraphernalia, building, and so forth. Well, there were no such schools at all. There are statistics left by a British administrator which show that, in places where they have carried out a survey, ancient schools have gone by the board, because there was no recognition for these schools, and the schools established after the European pattern were too expensive for the people, and therefore they could not possibly overtake the thing. I defy anybody to fulfill a program of compulsory primary education of these masses inside of a century. This very poor country of mine is ill-able to sustain such an expensive method of education. Our state would revive the old village schoolmaster and dot every village with a school both for boys and girls." (Mahatma Gandhi at Chatham House, London, October 20, 1931) Western thought helped to mold western society. But it was Chrisitianity that in many ways help develope the thought. As I pointed out earlier it was Christianity that took the divinity out of nature and paved the way for extended exploitation. This extended exploitative mentality has culminated in capitolism. The evolution of capitalism has created the Corporation who I believe embodies the age of Kali greater than any other single entity at this time. The 'throw away society' that rapes, pillages and plunders mother earth to keep the consumers happy is the result of western culture and our culture does indeed have its roots in Christianity. The war in Iraq is the most recent example of the rape, pillage and plundering that has gone on for centuries. Our society needs to keep the fires burnings at any cost. So the crusade continues into the new century. Those who cannot make the connections have not been paying attention and do not know western history. Concerning the media. It is a fact Christians DO control most of the media in India. I believe the media in America is corporate controlled. Most likly becasue India is imitating the west, corporation control will eventually win out. 8 out of 10 people in America claim to be Christian. SO without doing any research I would say it is a logical guess to say at least 8 out of 10 media outlets are run by Christians today. Media control in the west is becoming smaller and smaller and more controlled. But who are the controllers? How many of the CEO's who sit on the boards of these corporations claim to be Christian? I would guess at least 8 out of 10. I am not saying this is some deliberate conspiracy by Christians to take over the world. It is the Judaeo-Christian psyche at work. It is a type of mentality that has evolved. No there are no secret meetings of an elite underground evil network of want to be world controllers. What is happening is the natural evolution of the exploitive hedonistic consumer society mentality. SO we are uncovering the root of this mentality and where it originated and Christianity is strongly implicated. Now if you want to say these people were not Christians or are not Christians who do these things is like saying some one who chants Hare Krishna, wears the dress and worships Krishna is not a Hare Krishna. If you want to split hairs on who is a real devotee or who is a real Christian that is your freedom. But the people we are talking about do worship Jesus, go to Christian Churches, eat the body and blood of Jesus etc. etc. etc. therefore they are indeed Christians by definition of the word. America is considered a Christian nation by every other nation on earth because the population is somewhere around 77 to 80% Bible believing, Jesus worhipping, church going Christians. A very high percentage of this 77 to 80% take the Bible to be the literal word of God.
  11. Allow me to diagree with you. Yes the world is a stoolhouse we should try to get out of. It is the place of maya. That does not mean we do not need to know how the maya is working. I think we should understand what is happening in the world. There is a lot more happening behind the curtain that many of us are completely oblivious to. I think we should educate ourselves about the deceptive nature of current governments in power and try to speak the truth about what is happening worldwide on such issues as global warming, globalization, one world government etc. . Not just sit back chanting hare krishna trying to be aloof and not knowing what is happening around us. I think the Vaishnavas can make a difference and should be more outspoken about current events.
  12. I think many of the articles have been researched well. Yes it is a myth buster that is for sure. The Klu Klux Klan were a Christian group lets not forget. Protecting society from evil influence that is what they thought they were doing and still think they are doing. The Bible is still read at their gatherings. I know I came from that region. . I believe that is the point of the symbol. A burning cross is the symbol of hatred, atrocity, intolerance and so on that Christianity had imbibed for centuries. I found a lot of good reads on the site and think it is a very good source of information concerning the history of Christianity. I would like to see one done about Islam.
  13. Yes I would say some literal interpretations are for those with a particular adhikari. It is not wrong to take things literally. Some things are meant to be taken literally and others not. For instance the injunction that one should cut the tongue from the mouth of an offender. In this case lets not take it literally but understand strong emphasis has been put in order for us to understand it is a very bad thing to blaspheme a devotee of the Lord. The same type of fundamentalist who would gas an active homo-sex person would also cut your tongue out and start an iquisition to purify society. We know that Vaishnavism is the oldest religion on earth. But have you ever read many stories where people had their tongues cut out? No of course not. The stories that we do hear of beheadings etc always have a happy ending. But some with a Judaeo Christian psyche might consider cutting out ones tongue as a way to purify them. This is not different than putting one on the rack and torturing them for purification. Consider this. In math numbers represent something. They are only symbols. Stories can also be like that. The characters represent something. It is not necessary to take it all literally. It is science. As you know Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur made novels and stories. Are they to be taken literally. Not necessarily. I would like to think these things happened somewhere in time. But understanding the spiritual truth is the important thing. Of course the 10th canto and Krishnas pastimes can and should be taken literally in my opinion. All of Krishnas pastimes I take literally. Many of the stories in the Bhagavatam I also take literally. But when it comes to such things as the Universal form or Brahma sitting on a Lotus flower, if we were looking from a distance I do not think it would look exactly like that. I think the Bhagavatam in many cases explain things in a a way our minds can grasp it using characters as symbols. On the Jesus subject. I believe in fact he did not exist. That is my gut feeling. Or if he did he was not the person we have been led to believe he is. Perhaps the account is a fictionalized version of a real person. But the ideal that some propose that he entailed is certainly worthy of consideration. But that ideal cannot be found in the Bible if we take the Bible to be the history. So where does the ideal come from? And as far as wild speculations that he was Lord Brahma, this must be dismissed. That is just mental concoction. No acharya teaches that. This is how I see it.
  14. I was just wondering how far to the right some on this thread lean thats all. I know some who would anwer. 1. Yes we support the war on terrorism. 2. Yes we support the war in Iraq. 3. They are fundamentalist Islamist who want to destroy western culture that is who the terrorists are. We are the good guys. God bless America. Funny thing is these same people beat around the bush trying to speak from a very highly elevated platform. They say such things as 'we are not vaishnavas we are not Christians we are spirit souls...etc etc etc Jesus was a pure devotee, my guru said so, etc etc etc.. But their actions tell us who they really are. They are not different than your average fundamentalist born again crazies but they are posing as Vaishnavas who know the real purport of both the Bible and Vedas. http://www.burningcross.net/index.html and you thought i was the fundie?????
  15. Fanaticism cloaks itself in many dresses. Yes I know of some Vaishnavas who would like to round up every person with aids and put him in a concentration camp. They are as fundamentalist as any right wing Christian group. If it were up to them they would gas every practicing homo-sex person. That is one type of fundamentalism we are familiar with in the west. Funny thing is these same fundamentalist so-called Vaishnavas teach that Jesus is a pure devotee. They preach from the Bible as much as the Veda. I will not name the group. They even send their kids off to the war in Iraq. See the connection? Of course these Fundamentalist are not really Gaudiya Vaishnavas. But they claim to be. But there is another type of fundamentalist also. That is one who sticks closely to the sampradaya and has not deviated. Yes he is a fundamentalist but not like the ones I mention above. Just like a Jain fundamentalist is harmless so the Vaishnava fundamentalist is harmless and even more. He is helpful to every living entity. For instance we must try to convince others that Mahaprabhus mission is the best mission on earth. We should do what ever we can to convince them. If they are not convinced then we should encourage them to try to make progress on the path they are treading. Knowing that every soul will eventually make it home. So we do not need to curse them. But we should still tell the truth if they believe a philosophy that is wrong we shoud do our best to show them the fualt. Take away the poisen and give the nectar. Try to consider that when the world was under Vaishnava rule, Vedic society was very pluralistic and many different theologies were tolerated and even promoted. Just imagine it was Vaishnavas at the top of the chain that allowed such pluralism. But philosophies that teach, 'only one way to god', 'believe or burn', and who are ready to put such theology to work like the Nazi's did cannot be tolerated in a pluralistic Vedic society. Whether they attach the label Christian, Jew, Moslem or Vaishnava it does not matter, they will spoil society. They have already done so. It is a matter of cleaning it up.
  16. I don't know who these guys are at this website. But my hats off to them. Vaishnavas who want the truth about Christianity can get a good education here. http://www.burningcross.net/index.html
  17. Consider that Lord Buddha saw it was better to throw out the Veda becasue it had been misused so much. How much more has the Bible been misused? Thousands of times more. The house cannot be patched at this point. It is better to tear it down and build a new one.
  18. bija, Not all religious fundamentalist have something to add to terrorism. When was the last time you heard of a Jain suicide bomber? Jains can be as fundamental about their religion as any. When was the last time you heard of a Parsi terrorist hijacking a plane? The Parsi's (Zoroastrians) can be as fundamental about their religion as any. When was the last time you heard of a Vaishnava inquisition? Yes Vaishnavas can be fundamentalist too. When was the last time you heard of a Buddhist country stockpiling nuclear weapons and other WMD? Buddhist can be as fundamental as any. Playing ring around the posey with different groups that have promoted terrorism for centuries will not win them over. They should all be exposed for what they are. The religious underpinnings should be pulled. I am just calling a spade a spade thats all. If you think this is pointing the finger so be it. I think if people actually learn the truth about these different religions this can only be for the good. I think the Vaishnavas should know these things clearly. If you call that fundamentalism I am happy to carry that label. The Vaishnavas have nothing in their history to hide. This cannot be said for the Abrahamic religions. They have been hiding the truth for centuries. People are sick of it. Theist, This is one problem you do not get at all. SInce the very beginning certain groups claimed to be the real Christians. Now some Vaishnavas are claiming to know the real Christ. What makes you different? How is it you know the real Jesus? This is all sentiment plain and simple. Certainly the vision of Jesus you have must be that of a pure devotee the problem is history does not back up an historical Jesus, you have no evidence and this make you look as silly as any Jesus freak. Yes you can mock the 'fake Christians' and criticize them for mis-representing Jesus while thinking you have the real one, just like every Christian group before you.. Groups have been saying this for 2 thousand years creating their own theologies around the 'real jesus'. Have you actually read the Bible from cover to cover? Have you studied world history?
  19. Kanaka, Ha ha. Can't argue with that!!! But Krishna had to first kill Putana and her demons. He lovingly embraced her with a death hug and sucked her demonic nature right out. Yes that is Krishna He is not afraid to fight. No 'love bombing' for Krishna!!!! But of course, in this age we kill demons by chanting the Holy Name and kill misconceptions by putting forward the proper siddhanta. Misconceptions are like demons and those who promote them in the name of religion are the Putanas of this age. Yes we must save the PUTANAS by bringing to a head their misconceptions, cheating and deceit, then chopping it off with the torch of knowledge, not imitating the 'love bombiing sentimentalist Christians' who would be the first to lop off the heads of the Hare Krishnas if they had their way. Wolves in sheeps clothing most of them. First get them to hear the chanting, engage them in service then kill all their misconceptions. If they will not chant then speak the truth anyway. Intelligent people on the sidelines will be attracted to Krishna that way. We have the internet now, this is the informations age. Many people really do want the truth. If they perceive we are protecting bogus religions we lose a very intelligent section of society. "The white man (Christians) came to these Islands and said, 'take this Bible close your eyes and pray', so we did, when we opened our eyes the white had taken our land, destroyed our gods, forbidden us to speak our language, they destroyed everything our whole culture, and now all we have is this dumb Bible that doesn't make a lick of sense." Homeless Hawaiian Kahuna sitting next to his cardboard shanty 1999 ACE Tackle-berry, I am thinking of a good name for the Christian/Vaishnava apa-sampradaya, those who are trying to mingle Christianity with Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Can you think of any? Bija, and others of his mentality. I have a few serious question here. I want to find out just how deep your Judaeo-Christian conditioning goes. 1. Do you support Americas fight on terrorism? 2. Do you support the war in Iraq. 3. Who are the terrorists??? Bija, bija, bija, "Saying this I am probably conditioned by my christian upbringing also. Which was of a more progressive slant on the catholic theology. Directly after Vatican Two council. Where an openess to other faiths had begun. And dialogue had been entered after centuries of closure, crusade, and wrong...in the name of God. Even though this movement was quelched somewhat...it was a time of great hope." bija So we have something in common. I was educated in Catholic schools and learned my catechism well. But I did not learn the real history of the Catholic Church from within the Church itself. Most of the real information can be found in other places. Although I do admit the Catholic Encyclopedia is full of interesting things and admissions of wrong. Practically every so called saint within the Catholic church were all fakes. In fact I could not find even one that knows anything about Krishna or Vishnu. Nothing in any of their writings has anything to do with devotional service. Just Karma and Jnana and the Jnana is really confused. And as far as the karma or good works, as Prabhupada used to say to the Christians, 'you want to do good, but you do not know what is good. If you do not know what is good, how will you do good?" The Catholic saints were made for political reasons the most recent being Theresa. Yes that is right Theresa was just as phony as all of them. Her real history has been recorded by those who saw her and knew the real story. The glossed over picture you got in the west is as glossed over as most of the history we learned there. It is just more Church propaganda. Giving her the benefit of the doubt perhaps we could say she was unwittingly used. But there is strong evidence she was in on the hoax. She was no saint by any stretch of the imagination. The fact of the matter is the asura SLY BABA (sai baba) has done many more times good works in India than Theresa. And he has much less money at his disposal than the good sister did. The hospitals and schools opened by the sisters were deplorable by any standard. She has given India a very bad name and been made out to be a saint who only came to help. This type of propaganda has been used for centuries by the Catholic Church. The very early so-called saints were copies of demigods, that is a fact! They did a slight of hand to win the so-called pagans over. When they were not killing them they were cheating them with false histories and fables or giving them what they were already used to and then claiming it as Christian. Bija, how big was your Christmas tree this year? Do you know anything about Xavier? A contemporary of Mahaprabhu who instigated one of the most horrendous inquisitions of all time? The ignorant masses in India and the west still refer to this asura as a saint. No one wants to tell the real story. Did you know it was by his orders that literally thousands of Hindus were tortured and murdered? Did you know the Gaura Sarasvata Brahmins, the lineage where both Rupa and Sanatana Goswami took birth were among those tortured and killed? They had to flee Goa in order to keep their religion, many were slaughtered or forced to convert. Before coming to Goa they were driven out of Bengal, they were originally from Bengal, but the Moslems forced them out. Same thing with the Moslems, convert or die. This is the history of the Judaeo-Muzzie-Christian tradition. Did you know the Catholic Church to this day have not given an apology for the massacre and genocide in India perpetrated by this asura Xavier? Recently we passed the 500th year of this genocide and many Hindu groups asked the Church to apologize. Still no apology from the Catholic Church. You can travel the length and breadth of India and see Xaviers name everywhere with a big ST. in the front. Catholics here and around the world still regard him as a great saint. Just google Xavier and see how much his name comes up attached to all kinds of colleges, hospitals and so on. He is still praised and glorified by the Catholic Church and Christians in general. You want to talk of the progressive nature of the Catholic Church? Fire away my friend. Everyone of us born and raised in the west has a Judaeo Christian psyche. It is not easily discarded. I am having trouble getting on this website. More times than not the server is too busy. Does anyone know a better site this thread could be moved to? No wise cracks please.
  20. You have made over 10,000 posts but you never referred to yourself as a follower (disciple) of Srila Prabhupada, Mahaprabhu or Jesus Christ? There is no need for me to read your 10,000 posts I will take your word for it. Pray tell whose lineage do you claim connection to? My points were clear from the beginning. You are reading into my posts things that do not appear there. Many people read into the Bible what they want to hear and that is a point I should have hammered harder on here. You have given me the opportunity to do that now. Thank you. I am sorry and do not want to offend you more but I find your statements contradictory. You say " First I don't "preach" period from Gita or Bible". Then you say " Ocassionally I learn something I want to share. " Please explain to me how this sharing is not preaching from the Bible and Gita. I am confused. Again the point being made is people read the Bible lightly and have not made a study of it then they try to harmonize it with the Veda when in fact there is little harmony. You say, "Show me ONE example of where I have made referrence to the Bible that did not point out the same eternal truth found in the Gita". You see you are doing this too and validating the Bible by comparing it to the truth you find in the Veda. My agenda has been clear from the beginning but you say it is something other than trying to educate the Vaishnava public on some not so distant history. My agenda is also to show the Bible is not revealed scripture by Gaudiya Vaishnava standards and that I believe it is a mistake to continue to preach from it as if it were. It is a scripture for the meat-eaters, mlechas and yavanahs not the Vaishnavas. The original post clearly shows that. 1. Christians tried to vilify the Vaishnavas by claiming we had taken from the Bible and created our religion from the Bible. 2. Christians claimed the birth of Christ was before the birth of Krishna. 3 Science, scholars and theologians proved they were wrong and that in fact Krishna appeared long before Christ and we had not borrowed or stolen anything from the Bible.. 4 There is high probability that the accusers are in fact guilty of what they had accused the Vaishnavas of and in fact much of the Jesus story was taken from Krishna's pastimes. A Vaishnava in my opinion should question this point 4th point seriously. How is it that a pure devotee imitates the pastimes of Krishna? We do not find such a thing in any Vaishnava scripture. The story of the birth of Jesus and other tales in the Bible are highly suspect as being imitations and copies. The Christians made all these accusations against the Vaishavas but when they were proven wrong they simply brushed everything under the rug. They never even made the slightest attempt to apologize. Now some Vaishnavas are reopening the debate and turning the tables. I was happy to find a website where some Vaishavas are bringing to light these facts. I was also thinking the same thing so there is something in the ether at this time in history. I will post the website after I have completed 15 posts here as I think it should be warmly welcomed by the Vaishnava world. My agenda here is to help bring these things into the Vaishnava world. This forum being visited by many Vaishnavas is a suitable place. Later in the future after we have honed our argument then yes indeed I would like to see this in the face of the Christian world. It is time the truth be known and the whitewashed history of Christianity be replaced with facts. There is only one religion for this age and this is what the Vaishnavas should promote. Smashing the misconceptions in other doctrines will cause the intelligent class of people who are inclined towards God to the Vaishnava side. This type of debate has always been part of the Vaishnava tradition. We should all be like swans??? I agree with this one hundred percent. I am interested in Swans like Sripad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur who in the name of spreading Mahaprabhus mission had to fight many battles and 'spill gallons of blood', (figuratively speaking). He gave up political correctness and the status quo in order to establish the siddhanta of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas and went out of his way to smash misconceptions, expose the sahajiyas and other bogus teachers. Yes I would like to try to follow that example. He only lightly referenced who the Putanas were. Now those of the western countries are left with the task of revealing fully what Sarasvati Thakur alluded to. This battle will not be for the timid or weak of heart.
  21. "It's my sincere contention that we should appreciate anyone's most humble beginnings on the path of God consciousness and if we have anything to say it must be of the nature of helping their growth just as we wish help from those father along the path than we. Do unto others as you would others do unto you." theist If you can bring people to the Holy Name that way all for the good. However: Helping ones growth may entail shattering their illusion. The problem is many who like you have only 'casually scanned' the Bible preach from it as if it were revealed scripture not really knowing what is in that book. I know because I used to do that myself. Cherry picking what I liked. When I made a good study I realized the whole thing was tinged with very bitter fruit and the cherries were few. Concerning the guru making mistakes. It is the inspired side of guru that we are more inclined to recognize. If my guru makes a mistake on mundane matters it is really not a mistake in the spiritual sense. My guru is not a mechanic so if he gives some advice on how to fix my car it could be wrong. I do not consider that a spiritual mistake. With that in mind please consider the possibility that Srila Prabhupada was preaching according to time. place and circumstance when he spoke about Jesus. He facilitated our sentiment and exploited that in order to give us the Holy Name. He never made a study of the Bible, the alleged life of Jesus, or the history of Christianity anymore than he made a study of mechanics. It is pointed out by Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and Srila Sarasvati Thakur that Christianity and the teachings of Christ are on the mundane level spiritually speaking. The teachings of Christianity are not transcendental, they are mundane. Karma and Jnana is on the mundane (material) platform it is not suddha bhakti or transcendental. Whatever was written about Jesus was written by those on the mundane platform. My points on the matter of Jesus should be clear. There is no valid source to derive what actually happened or what he actually taught. If you take the Bible as the source you have to accept the negative things also. If we open the door and accept anything and everything out of parampara based on sentiment then anything will go and everything will be confused. The line is clear, accepting hearsay stories as factual absolute truth is very dangerous. Without the Bible you have no Jesus. All we really have is hearsay. You can spin it any way you like but I will stick to reading and following sources that have been recognized as authoritive scripture by our acharyas and continue to debunk hearsay ficticious scriptures that teach from the mundane platform appearing to be spiritual and tricking the people. Sarasvati Thakur himself called the teachers of Christianity (pastors, priests, ministers etc) to be PUTANAS, so I am not alone have good backing. Concerning any science background. How do I know the Srimad Bhagavatam is science? Because my gurus said it was. That is how I know. The sages and saints are all scientist. They are the real scientist. Srila Prabhupada was a scientist. Bhaktivinode Thakur was a scientist. I am an aspiring one. For a long time I did not know there were people in the Vaishnava world who were seeing the things I see concerning Christianity. I was very enthused and happy when I realized I was not alone. For those who I offended I beg forgiveness. I do not believe anyone's intentions here were bad. Everyone's input was appreciated. You are all servants of Krishna and I respect you for that even though we may differ in our understanding or approach. All Glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga
  22. "Religion must be on the basis of science and logic. That is first-class religion." A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada "Religion without philosophy is sentiment, or sometimes fanaticism, while philosophy without religion is mental speculation." A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada “The sastras [scripture] of the yavanas, or meat-eaters, are not eternal scriptures. They have been fashioned recently, and sometimes they contradict one another. The scriptures of the yavanas are three: the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran. Their compilation has a history; they are not eternal like the Vedic knowledge. Therefore although they have their arguments and reasoning, they are not very sound and transcendental. As such, modern people advanced in science and philosophy deem these scriptures unacceptable.” A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind". Albert Einstein The Srimad Bhagavatam is very scientific in its explanation of the cosmos. Nothing like it can be matched in any other religious text on earth. To put the Bible in the same category is foolish.
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