brajamandala

I once sat in front of an acharyya while a female aspirant made queries regarding "description of women in the scriptures." She wanted to know if according to the acharyya's religion, "were women considered equal to men." His immediate reply, "No, for that, the women will have to come down." It depends on one's consciousness and what you are seeing from where you are seeing it.

Dear Ethos Prabhu, I am new to this forum and cannot participate much due to time constrictions, and don't have much to offer due to my neophyte condition, but you were really the only one that bothered to interact and question my stand, and feelings on swami quits thread. I get a real lot from just reading these threads, some are out of my league philosophically and so although I would like to, I cannot participate, but I find your posts engaging, intelligent and thoughtful. It's contributors like you who make these forums worthwhile. So don't be cut and disappointed. As someone else said, we're all teeny jivas, we all have false ego and other filth. If you aren't getting anything, try and think of what you may be giving.

Dear Guests, I detect callous condescending indifference from both of you. How sweet you are. May be you Guest: Closure seeing you have arrived at the conclusion that this thread serves no purpose and everyone is a tormented soul bar you, should leave this thread and associate with those befitting your pure ilk.

Ethos Prabhu, I'm sorry if my last post offended you. Please forgive me. I'm not saying the swami is sincere in forsaking his duty, I'm merely saying if he cannot fulfil it properly, and cannot offer anythking more to his disciples he should step down. What's so hard to cmprehend? What happened when the guru called Sripad Bhavananda had to step down, or got kicked down. THE Iskcon GURU, after our Prabhupad unfortunately left us. Are you saying this guru should have stayed on and continued with his nonsense behind closed doors and deluding his disciples in the name of duty?. Taking his disciples down not up? A classic example of a guru not fulfilling his duty. The questionn in point really is should Vipramuhkya have stayed on with his duty mechanically with no substance, no essence, no heart all the while contemplating undesireable nonsense matters? I think not, you can think what you like. If his heart is not in it, and he is contemplating undesireable matters, of what use is he to his discples??? How can the dhara flow through to his disciples. Or are we just after the form and no substance? Fooling ourselves, yeh man , my guru is so great. Vipramuhkya did the right thing. Of course it's better if people can stick with their duty, I'm not saying everyone should whimsically abort their duty if it doesn't quite fit them, the world would be far more chaotic if that was the case, what I am saying is that in the guru/disciple relationship, whichis not merely just some duty like any other duty, the guru has responsiblity to deliver his disciples, if he comes to the realiZation he cannot, then he should leave them and encourage them to find another guru. common sense man. Like I said none of us know the total scenario surrounding his demise, I'm mereley giving the man the benefit of the doubt. It's unfortunate for Iskcon and its PR that he did fall down, but these thigns happen unfortunately. He may have been insincere from the start, he may have been sincere, who knows. After a falldown it looks like apparent insincerity. But who are we to judge.

Ethos Prabhu, What can I say, so be it. Sometimes we need a broader view. Everything is in the hands of the supreme Lord. The sincere will go on to higher deeper and sweeter, the insincere will put it down to bad experience. A finite point in the infinite.

Ethos Prabhu, Apologies for my very late reply to your post, have been most busy. I can't say too much as I don't have the time to explain myself, but a few things I can address. First, Prathistha means fame, recognition. And I agree there are some decisions that should not be aborted due to duty, except though when your duty is no longer of service to those your position should be serving. If the swami cannot fulfil his duty as spiritual master properly then he should step down and let those disciples find another spiritual master. The disciples should look for an uttama-adhikari guru not a madhhyam-adhikari guru who can fall down. Also, who knows what they're capable of when they start out. Yo have to remember, we are not the doers, Krsna does through us, we can only be humble and pray that He will use us in His service, that he will give us what we lack. The Swami may have very much felt that he could be an initiating guru and take on the lives of others with the guidance, strength and meryc of the Lord. We do not know what is ahead, we each have our own karma to deal with until we're purified except if one is on the level of uttama-adhikari as as I've expressed. "Heavy responsability" is not in reference to austerity and renunciation, but as said taking onthe lives of others to shelter them and uplift them and give them proper spiritual guidfance so they progress. It's easy to say in hindsight one overestimated their abilities, we have no ability, Krsna is the ability in man, he canmake us or break us. There is a ref in the Bhagavad-Gita to ability in man, I don't have the time to check it, but you may be able to find it. I have no time time nmow, please excuse me, My apologies.

As the journalist mentioned this feud has been ongoing silently in the background. The Balinese despise the Javanese, who are Muslim. The Javanese come down from Java and over from Lombok and other places for employment o pportunities. And I can say after staying in Bali on several occassions, you can pick a Javanese from a Balinese. If you're going to get taken by the money wallas, it'll mostly likely be a Javanese, as the Balinese know it is "bad karma: The Javanese Muslims, regardless of what the Koran informs about stealing, are notorious thieves and liars. They bring ill-repute on Bali, and because the Muslims are so heavy and fanatical, the Balinese Hindu traditions are slowly eroding, as more and more Muslims infiltrate in all walks of life in this tiny island. Of course, Western influence has some bearing also, especially on the younger generations. I, trying to be a practicing vaishnava, however meagre that practice, find it very difficult to tolerate the whole Muslim world. I think of the destruction they caused to India's majestic holy temples and its people and my stomach churns. The Muslim inhabitants are trying to do the same in Bali but with a more quiet and subtle front.

Dear Thos, I take your points on board, I'm not using my points as justification for anything. I realize action originates in desire, but as you go along desires change. He may not have had much of a worldly desire when he started, hence his enthusiasm to take sannyasi cloth with gusto and do his duty as a spiritual leader. I just feel for those who are willing to take that kind of heavy responsibility in the first place. So many who maybe oculd stand up and be counted do not take it on because of all sorts of fears. He responded to the challenge and took it as far as he could. That's just the way I see it. There maybe some gurus around who feel the same way as this swami but will never come clean because they fear dishonour and poverty, they're use to the "high life". I've witnessed the personal torment a swami goes through long before he falls, his words, his body langage, his mood, his frustration and anger . It's just very sad and that's all I've got to say about it.. And as far as Mahak suggesting let the Supersoul guide naturally, I think many don't even know the supersoul in reality let alone be guided by Him. I think their false egos guide them more, especially when there is a bit of pratistha to be had, instead of chosen, they end up choosing themselves and promoting themselves so subtly they fool their soon to be followers into thinking they're the naturally effulgent chosen one.

EthosPrabhu ,who saidit's his desire, do you know the whole scenario. He took on his duty with good faith, he had a go, we can only work with what's in our hand. We don't know what's ahead. He did his duty for a long time and I'm not saying his duty in a meagre way. He would know the PR outcome of such a move. Yur post immediatley reminded me of the scenario of Arjuna on the battlefield. Arjuna asyou know was overwhelmed by "emotion", just like Swami Vipramukhya probably is/was. It doesn'matter what flavour the emotion has, the fact is that if Krsna wasn't there to instruct, and by the sound of it, it took some doin, Arjuna wouldn't be able to fulfil his duty. This Swami did not have the Supreme Personality of Godheadin person standing theretelling him to get off his butt put his woes behind and just carry on. Easy to say Prabhu, just to carry on with his duty regardless. Have you ever been in such a heavy predictament yourself. Give the guy some credit.

I was very much moved by Vipramukhya Swami's address to all. I have never met the man, but from my point of view he has heartfelt sincerity, and utter disappointment and despair for himself and for his disciples in his post. He's done his utmost, and that's the best we can do, and like a lot of sannyasis who give so much out to others over so long they forget their own needs and the dictates, ebbs and flows and moods of their own personal spiritual journey. It's all a learning curve and sometimes that learning curve falls outside of the doti and the sari. Krsna only sees us, he knows our bentness and our best qualities and he is always chiselling. And just because one has "fallen down" doesn't mean he was not sincere before in the beginning at towards the end. I think he is being incredibly honest ane courageous, some could go on for years for fear of the cnsequences of coming out. I admire him. I believe most sannyasis do their very best. But we are eternal and our journey is eternal, even in Goloka we haven't really arrived, our adjustment and improvement is unlimited, even the gopies feel they have deficit. So what for one apparent side-track, and whether we are guru or disciple when this happens, it can but a small glitch in the overall picture. I know some might find this very simplistic, but many things happen to the soul along the way and because it seems to fall outside our expected view and form of what and how things should be doesn't mean there is no benefit in it . Some sannyasis who go away come back some time later with a force to be reckoned with, because they have so much more experience and understanding, and depth of charachter, it's like they've burnt out the curiosity, got their thinking in order and burnt off the dross. yes profound spiritual realizations can come when you're out in the world, Krsna never leaves us. Then they come back to work and lead and give with profound insight, compassion, genuine humility and well-adjusted authority. In the mean time his disciples will go through their own tests, the sincere will go on albeit with much frustration and hurt for a while, but Krsna is more in our life than we think, even the lowlifes like myself he won't abandon. Things will sort themselves out.

actually just to add on to my last post, about seeing evil in others, it must ber in the seer first in order to see it in another. I was told from a very reliable source some time ago about a devotee B.R. Sridhar Maharaj banned from his compound because he was "evil and spreading evil". The evil he was spreading was profound, and I've since heard this from others also. B.R. Sridhar Maharaj saw it in him, realized what he was doing and how he was affecting others, especially new devotees faith not yet really formed, and this vaishnava, how could one say with sanity he had evil in him which qualified him to see evil in another. Ludicrous proposal. Explain that. Prabhupad also saw it in others, once again, it's not that you don't actually see, it's just that it's more preferable to concentrate on the better qualities in one and not the darker. This is not the transcendental realm, and the vaishnavas on this globe today and before also see evil, that's why they're here, to try to help us suckers get out of it.

Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil, wonderful ideal, but I also agree that discrimination is necessary, and sometimes we have to see in order to not emulate, hear in order to not take on board, etc.etc. we're in the learning process. Its pretty hard to not see something very blatant, even something subtle if you are an aware person, "Oh, no I didn't see that, it's just imagination again, silly me.!" This is foolish nonsense, I realize hear no, see no, speak no, although it's a high ideal it's a little simplistic. Of course we should endeavour at all times to not speak it, but actually I feel what hear no evil and see no evil refers to is if you do hear or see, ignore it to the best of your ability. Don't let that example influence you in that manner. Am I saying the obvious? Of course, the higher vaishnavas fixed in that transcendental world will see everything as perfect, no evil anywhere, everything is perfect, but until that day lets use some common sense shall we. I agree with you Gaurachandra, it seems like if you're a conceited smartase, you're worthy of recognition. cooler.

Oh my, I mucked up the last one. Lets try again. Brutality in the human race is astonishing. I witness mental and emotional brutality quite often from a so-called long time vaishnava, who takes pleasure in subtly undermining others, delivering snide and condescending remarks to hopefully make the recipient feel inadequate, inferior and not worthy of love or/and respect from others, particularly love from God. I've come to realise this personality is actually very insecure, he overstates and exaggerates the exuberance of any meeting with anyone as if he is the great loved one, that people find he is the most fascinating, so elevated, adoreable, so sweet, and yet he will punish his own children in the most twisted and harsh manner. Brutality whether physical, emotional or mental is deep seated and originates in the false ego, in the darkest canals, it's used to control, to demean, to manipulate for one's own ends, where wil it stop, if the long term so-called devotees have thislamentable malaise, what to speak of the ordinary folk in the world. I better chant some more rounds.

lm