ananda

Bob Cooper, According to Vaishnava philosophy. There is NO EVIL and NO GOOD God is ultimate cause and ultimate doer. Evil, as per Vaishnavism, is simply turning away from God. By this definition, if we eat food (even vegan) not offered to God is considered sinful. Therefore any act, word or deed that is not done with God in the center is considered karma (good or bad). So if you do an act that helps other people without God, it is good karma. If you do an act that hurts other people without God, it is bad karma. If you do an act just to please God, it is divine or transcendental (no karma). So technically, within this material creation there is no evil or good as food for one is poison to other. Everything is relative and hence no such thing as absolute evil or goodness. Evil act and good act is just a label as everything is relative. There is only the distinction between an act for God's pleasure or one's own pleasure (gross or subtle).

Please chant to your heart's desire. Slowly we will be purified. Dont worry about that. But lets start the chanting of Lord Krishna's names. You can chant anywhere anytime...bathroom, driving, eating, sleeping, etc. Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

try the link below...you can get answers BONAFINDE hare-krishna.org/articles/1109/1/Speculative-Kirtana-Styles/

Hare Krishna! Gauravani has nicely put, difference God and the Supreme absolute truth-Krishna. Yes, Krishna is the Absolute Truth and the source of all there is. There is no scritpure on this planet (any scripture Vedic, and Non-vedic) that says that one is a Supreme Absolute Truth, only Krishna proclaimes Himself in the Gita and Vyasadev who compiled the Vedic Scritpure, says so. Many quotes like Krishnas Tu Bhagavan Swayam Govindam Adi Purusham Vaasudevam Sarvam Iti Ishvarah Parmaha Krishna.....sarva Karana Karanaam Chapter 9 of the Bhagavad Gita...talks about the Supremacy of Krishna and ofcourse the first sloka...janmādy asya yato in the Srimad Bhagavatam So...to club everything into one amalgam in a melting pot saying Vishnu, Krishna, Siva are different flavors is stupid and blasphemous. There is no place in the scriptures that say everything is the same like the melting pot. Everyone is real and there is an order and Krishna is on the top and no one is equal to or above Him. This was the CONCLUSION of Sage VedaVyas who has given us the foundation of our so called HINDUISM that in India people say they follow. He is the author and so we should accept Sage Vedvyas's conclusion. Haribol! anand

Dear Anand, does this not looks very much like criticizing others to not criticize? TO that statement specifically, i accept i am no good than any, i speculate and criticize but it is like i am looking in the mirror and giving a solution...only way not to criticize is to OUTRIGHT STOP and accept DISHONOR and be humble and patient and leave it to Krishna! Haribol! anand

Hare Krishna! To the guest who posted 149 and 150...dont know the name...may be both are same... anyways..i will try to cut it short.. i would like to politely disagree with everything written... we are not comparing apples to apples... when you say discussion..to my best knowledge, no one in this thread is DISCUSSING...all we are doing here is CRITICIZING, FAULT FINDING and SPECULATING... No one here is following the etiqutte of rules of DEBATE and SCHOLARLY ARGUMENT.. we are cutting and pasting some person's (mostly Srila Prabhupada) and speculating the circumstance and environment in which he must have said... this is not how to debate...atleast to my knowledge. Debate starts with a claim (an assertion)..then we show VALID proof and evidence through triangulation and qualitative analysis and for that...it requires more than 100 or 200 words of so called discussion we see in these threads. The counter debate starts by proving or disproving by not shouting louder than the previous person or calling names but with sound, clear evidence to the contrary with the same type of analytical approach. In the whole process, both the parties should be completely detached from the argument and just present the argument and not have any subjective opinion on the matter. This type of debate is fit for both spiritual and material subject matter. In material science, we use OBJECTIVE FACTS and DATA to remove bias and in spiritual argument, we are detached by the dint of our realiztion and hence present the topic AS IT IS. No ONE in this thread is following any rules except name calling, and bad mouthing and speculating. Sorry to differ..but this is how i see discussion and sharing of knowledge. But due to our impurities, we get personel, passionate and lose our cool and hence cannot think straight. ALso, this forum is for sharing knowledge, and apart from the first two or three posts, everything else is SPECULATION (not discussion) Haribol! anand

Hare Krishna! To Gauravani You are assuming that the Gaudiya Parampara is at peril because of the ritvik problem in ISKCON? So...by arguing with a couple of people in this forum, you think you will change the situation..?? Prabhupada said...PURITY IS THE FORCE...why he did not mention any other thing...Are we PURE to question the weakness in others? Yes, i accept there is a problem in ISKCON Guru system...but there is a bigger problem than that....that is we are NO BETTER. So...as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said....First you clean yourself, then you help others...so it starts from YOU. We clean the INSIDE of us first...so if you are really concerned about ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada, follow everything he said, PURIFY yourself and then PREACH about right and wrong. In the Bhagavad Gita, it is said, a Sadhu sees with equal visiion a Brahmana, a dog and a dogeater...so, first we have to become sadhus and then help ISKCON improve and not just arguing over the internet. Ofcourse, MAYA will fight against us...as Srila Prabhupada once said that ISKCON is in the material world and hence MAYA will impact it. So, we will be fools if we think ISKCON as an institution that should be perfect...it will not...but what is perfect...the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. So we follow his teachings and then we become perfect. Gaudiya Vaishnavism is the teachings and not the flawed guru system. Arjuna's guru Drona acharya was on the opposite side and Krishna was with Arjuna. So, does that mean Drona acharya is a rascal because he opposed Krishna. Does that mean...Arjuna has to disrespect his Guru and bad mouth his Guru. No....Arjuna fought ONLY because Krishna said so.... Similarly...there may be mistakes in the Guru system or a Guru himself, but we have NO QUALIFICATION to comment or criticize...why? because we ourselves are IMPURE. Dont worry about Gaudiya Vaishnava Parampara....it is ETERNAL and not subject to the Guru system in ISKCON. More than anything, Prabhupada wanted everyone to read his books.... So if you are really concerned about ISKCON and Prabhupada, DISTRIBUTE HIS BOOKS and PURIFY YOURSELF BY READING AND CHANTING! Argument will not lead you anywhere Sorry for being assertive, after 140 odd posts, no one has agreed on one point and you think you are helping ISKCON and PRabhupada by voiciing your conern...what these posts have established is simple hate and bad mouth....nothing else...there is no constructive criticisms or analysis or research.... just cutting and pasting arguing about other people's opinion doesnt make you or anybody better and that you imply that you are fighting for ISKCON, PRabhupada and eventually Gaudiya Vaishnavism. The greatness of Gaudiya Vaishnavism is love and compassion to all human beings inspite of caste, creed or color. Are you telling that you cannot be TOLERANT to accept people's flaws and that constant education and tolerance can change the way people do business. Argument can only lead to more argument....no point continuuing ISKCON is not just the GURU SYSTEM...it is MUCH MUCH MORE...if you think this GURU SYSTEM will fail ISKCON and Gaudiya Vaishnavism...you cannot be wronger...!! Haribol anand

Hare Krishna to all WARRING POSTERS Please accept my humble obeisances! All glories to Srila Prabhupada! I have been following this thread from the beginning and i am amazed in the number of responses and criticizing happening in this thread. I have personally not posted any response yet (although i did try to once). Before we go into the details...first we have our daily duties per Srila Prabhupada instructions..which are Chant a mininum of 16 rounds follow the 4 regulative principles eat only prasadam everyday Read Prabhupada books atleast 1 hour daily and be humble and tolerant... as Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said "humbler than the straw on the street and tolerant as a tree" Those who follow all the principles mentioned above, please criticize, if not, we have no rights to critcize anybody. Below are of quotes pertaining to Vaishnava etiqutte "Throughout his life, a brahmana should consider material prestige to be like poison and dishonor to be like nectar. After all, if one learns to tolerate dishonor, then his agitation will subside and he will happily sleep, happily wake, and happily move about. The person who insults him will, because of his sin, become regretful, and his happiness in this and the next life will be vanquished." (Manu-samhita 2.162-163) Quoted by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura in "Brahmana O Vaisnava". "The ignorant seek to injure the wise by malice and back-biting; by doing so the critic takes upon himself the load of the wise man’s sins, which he, the wise man, casts off by forgiving the ignorant." (Vidura to Dhritarastra, Mahabharata, Udyoga parva 34.74) The first quote talks about tolerating dishonor, i dont think any of us here are at that level...so are we qualified to CRITICIZE? The second quote talks about quality of a wise man...first are we wise....if so...will we be arguing like this...if we are not...then we have work to do. Wise meaning we should be humble and tolerant!! and not bad mouth everything and everybody. This thread is a proof that we exist in the PLANE OF DUALITY. We should be ashamed, as Vaishnavas, bicker like this. I am no better, as i have similar tendancies. Yes, one may be correct, one may be wrong, or both may be correct or wrong....but the question is... "He that is without a sin among you, let him first cast a stone" John 8.7 Again, i am included in all of this...so dont go in tangents criticizing me (you will miss the point). So...those of you who are tolerant, humble and follow all the principles as set by Srila Prabhupada support or dont support the ISKCON we see today (bcos ISKCON is Srila Prabhupada). But one has to be smart in not accepting everything we see. So we have to learn to be humble and tolerant and strong and convey the message. Humble and tolerance does not mean we should soft and meek....no Prabhupada was humble and tolerant and hence he could withstand the MANY mistakes his disciples did when he was alive...you think he was not compassionate even after SO MANY offenses his disciples did. WHo are we to argue like cats and dogs over who is correct and wrong. WHile he apologized and was so compassionate during his living time, why we think he will not be now. The point is...we all will make mistakes...and unless one comes to the platform of Uttama Adhikari....we will make mistakes. I am sure, bickering and arguing will not bring any of us to that platform of Utama Adhikari. I am hoping everyone's goal in this forum and post is to be liberated from this cycle of birth and death and live a life that makes Srila Prabhupada happy. We should ask ourselves....bickering like cats and dogs...will it make him happy or not.... First question....are we all qualified to criticzie or comment on other people (everyone devotees and non-devotees)...only Krishna has the qualification to do that...so then what is our job? Simple....follow the rules set by our Guru...all of us agree Srila Prabhupada is our Guru (siksha, diksha and otherwise)... So...are we following it all diligently to make him happy...if so.....we will not be fighting and arguing....bcos....by following the rules.... we would have developed the qualities of TOLERANCE, HUMBLENESS and COMPASSION and so we can live like VAISHNAVAS and make Srila Prabhupada happy. Then...above that...we have to distribute books and flood the world with Krishna Consciousness. Why are we arguing over the Guru system when we ourselves have a ton of work to do that if we spend every minute of our life....this one life time will not be enough. So...please let us all (all warring groups) understand the bigger issues and whichever system...try to practically apply Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam principles in our !life opportunities. So, anybody who is qualified, please criticize...if not we have work to do! Haribol! anand

ok Neo ... i did not expect you to blatantly agree with me. So what you are saying is- we have no choice but to live and wait for God to rescue us from 'repeated birth and death'. Then what is the point of chanting hare krishna? Simple, the difference is between a ordinary man seeking sense enjoyment and a devotee. The difference is between a man who realises his current position and calls out the Lord's name (Hare Krishna chanting) to save him and a man who does not call (not chanting) and dies and borns again. So, Krishna will come only if we WILL (dovetail our will with Krishna's will) and chanting shows us the way, purifies us to go to Krishna and the rest Krishna will do. We only chant, Krishna will take care of the rest! Haribol! anand

Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! If God is everywhere, he controls everything, i.e. he is isvara, then what is sin?. If he controls everything then aren't you or I being controlled by him right now, so whatever you or I do , it is his "doing" , right? Hence, sin is an illusion, right? God controls everything. You and I are controlled by God. However, there is something called "FREE WILL". Since we mis-use this free will, we sin but if we use it in the service of Krishna, we become devotees. So, technically, Krishna cannot control us 100% because we have a very minute quantity of Free will. Sin is temporary but not illusionary. Then , what is the use of Punishment? If you do something 'punishable' by God (example adultery), it is really God commiting sin, so there is really no way you are responsible, then why should God punish you or anyone for anything? The argument again revolves around the mis-use of our free will and hence end up in a punishable state. Punishment from God is nothing but His mercy on us. It is like if my father punishes me...it is out of his love for me and that he wants to correct me and not to hurt me. So punishment by Krishna through the agent of Maya is His mercy to dovetail our free will with Krishna's will. Third, God is everywhere , then why do you worship an idol? I agree I am not God, but if he is everywhere , He is in me right now, and also in a rock at the same time, so why can't I worship a rock, or my own body? We do not worship an idol. We worship a deity that is made of material elements and invoked spiritually through sound vibration. In other words, God Himself has mentioned specifically in the Scriptires as to how He wants to be worshipped. Again, this is for our sake and not for Krishna. Krishna is complete and self-sufficient. He does not require worship. But, since we minute jivas are small, insignificant, conditioned and suffering, Krishna has volunteered to accept our service through deity worship. By constant worship, we can dovetail our free will to Krishna and ultimately attain prema-bhakti. The whole process of deity worship is technical and methodical and cannot be done whimsically on our own. As conditioned souls, we misuse our free will, and by proper methods, we can love Krishna and one of the processes is deity worship (of the 9 processes to attain love) Haribol! anand

Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! To everyone who saw/wrote in this thread.... we should learn from these incidents. MAYA can be very strong and not for once, till we depart from this material world, we should think that we have become advanced devotees. Our sole goal is to attain the MOOD of Servant of the Servant of the Sevrant...then we can make Srila Prabhupada happy. Only then, we can defeat MAYA, if not, how much ever we try we will fail and ultimately dissatisfy His Divine Grace. How much damage popularity can bring us, Gauri Das the temple president of Bhaktivedanta Manor, obviously must have been in ISKCON for sometime and must be considered advanced. If the information of $60,000 is true, this situation is very sad and surely Prabhupada is sad. How can he be advanced? Where are the 26 saintly qualities of which "no posessions", "no material desire" go....what to speak of the other 24. So, we should learn from this and take vow that we should never fall into this TRAP....Krishna is giving us SO MANY REAL LIFE examples right in front our eyes, so that we can learn from the mistakes of others. Hope as forum members and devotees who participate in the forum, we should be more careful and diligent in not falling into this trap of MAYA. Always seek the attitude of humility and meekness (2 more qualities of a saint). I am sad that ISKCON GBC has done nothing about this.....what is the use of preaching Bhagavata Philosophy if the leaders themselves are not BHAGVATS....who will follow...it is like saying...please dont smoke when the person saying it is a smoker..... This is sad and unfortunate. Surely, this is not why Srila Prabhupada struggled to come here... MAYA has announced itself in the court of ISKCON and Renunciation has renounced itself from the court of ISKCON... Haribol! anand

Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances! All glories to Srila Prabhupada! His life and work represent a marvelous synthesis of the noble thoughts and deeds of great personalities like Swami Vivekanand, Sri Aurobindo, Mahatma Gandhi, Socrates and Confucius. You have summed up the essence of your master and who he looks upon as authority. He has used human beings as authority. We as human beings are fallible by dint of our own nature. So, synthesizing what previous men (who are fallible by nature) said (culturally or politically or socially or philosophically) also can be fallible. Hence, authority should not be human beings but GOD personified. So we should accept those spiritual teachers who teach GOD's words without his own self-interpretation...in other words, God's words should be transmitted to next generation AS IT IS. This is authority. Haribol! anand

Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! My 2 cents... First of all, we should try to understand why Srila Prabhupada said what he said. Clearly, in the previous post, Prabhuapada talks about renouncing sense enjoyment, and Prabhupada continues that living amenities and basic necessaities will be provided by the temple authorities...but why assistance in the form of MONEY is the question? Some previous post talks about practical difficulties in todays world and then how it is easier said than done. First, people who volunteer to do such temple activities WILL not be ordinary human beings like I. In other words, only people with deep convictions and love for Guru and Shastra can perform sacrificial activities which includes being a temple president without getting paid. It is not easy in todays world...but that is the whole point..the temple president sets an example to all new Vaishnavas and leads by example and hence that post cannot be occupied by just anyone but should earn the position which obviously will take a lot of sacrifice and love for Guru and Krishna. So while the question of practical difficulty is for ordinary people but will not for vaishnavas who have decided to serve Krishna in a capacity as a temple president. If a grihastha is a temple president and if the question of wife and children maintenance comes into the picture, then, the ISKCON higher authorities should provide basic necassities such as education, food and housing. But why MONEY (is the question raised by Srila Prabhupada). Second, Srila Prabhupada lived on this planet 30 years before, so the basic problems of economy in our society has not changed much (if one will look at the nations economical growth). My point, Srila Prabhupada did not live 500 years before but only 30 years and hence not much changed (except for inflation). To occupy the post of higher order (Temple president) takes sacrifice and lots of devotion. It is not an easy job. We should understand that first. We should not equate a high position as normal and that it is easy. My point, the person occupying the post should be qualified and if he/she is qualified, then automatically there will be great levels of humility, tolerance, renunciation and devotion in that person thus superseding all mundane necessaities that we ordinary people face. For the sake of the extended family members, they should be equally venerated in supporting the family member to be in that post. But for practical purposes, Srila Prabhupada does mention about providing those necessities but JUST NOT with MONEY. This is something we should try to follow if we want to make Srila Prabhupada happy. It is difficult but not IMPOSSIBLE. Haribol! anand

Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! why it took them 30 years to find out, whereas new bhaktas said the same again and again years ago? Simple....we never tend to look internally and always seek solutions externally. In other words, we look from the inside out assuming the inside is perfect. So we should learn from this, we should criticize our own habits and abilities and work on trying to become the devotee Srila Prabhupada talked about and if everyone works hard on that, we will surely have a model society of Krishna Con devotees who also are qualified to become GBC members. Haribol! anand

Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! Modern science and scientists...very funny. Please read the following article written by a scientist himself. The Dating Game by David N. Menton, Ph.D. Much of the controversy between evolutionists and creationists concerns the age of the earth and its fossils. Evolution, depending as it does on pure chance, requires an immense amount of time to stumble upon anything remotely approaching the complexity we see in even the simplest living things. For over 100 years, geologists have attempted to devise methods for determining the age of the earth that would be consistent with evolutionary dogma. At the time Darwin's <CITE>On the Origin of Species</CITE> was published the earth was "scientifically" determined to be 100 million years old. By 1932, it was found to be 1.6 billion years old. In 1947, geologists firmly established that the earth was 3.4 billion years old. Finally in 1976, they discovered that the earth is "really" 4.6 billion years old. These dates indicate that for 100 years, the age of the earth doubled every 20 years. If this trend were to continue, the earth would be 700 thousand-trillion-trillion-trillion years old by the year 4000 AD. This "prediction," however, is based on selected data and certain assumptions that might not be true. As we will see, selected data and unprovable assumptions are a problem with all methods for determining the age of the earth, as well as for dating its fossils and rocks. It has all become something of a "dating game" in which only the evolutionarily-correct are allowed to play. The most widely-used method for determining the age of fossils is to date them by the "known age" of the rock strata in which they are found. On the other hand, the most widely-used method for determining the age of the rock strata is to date them by the "known age" of the fossils they contain. This is an outrageous case of circular reasoning, and geologists are well aware of the problem. J.E. O'Rourke, for example, concedes: "The intelligent layman has long suspected circular reasoning in the use of rocks to date fossils and fossils to date rocks. The geologist has never bothered to think of a good reply, feeling the explanations are not worth the trouble as long as the work brings results" (<CITE>American Journal of Science</CITE>, 1976, 276:51). In this "circular dating" method, all ages are based on evolutionary assumptions about the date and order in which fossilized plants and animals are believed to have evolved. Most people are surprised to learn that there is, in fact, no way to directly determine the age of any fossil or rock. The so called "absolute" methods of dating (radiometric methods) actually only measure the present ratios of radioactive isotopes and their decay products in suitable specimens -- not their age. These measured ratios are then extrapolated to an "age" determination. This extrapolation is based on the fact that an unstable (radioactive) chemical element, called the parent isotope, breaks down at a presently known rate to form a more stable daughter isotope. In the case of radiocarbon dating, an unstable isotope of carbon (C14) decays into nitrogen (N14). This currently occurs at a rate which would be expected to reduce the quantity of the parent C14 by half every 5,730 years (the half-life). In other words, the less of the parent isotope (and the more of the daughter isotope) we measure in a specimen, the older we assume it to be. Radiocarbon dating is actually of little use to evolutionists. There are several reasons for this. First, no rocks and very few fossils contain measurable quantities of carbon of any kind. Second, because of the short half-life of C14, the radiocarbon method can only date specimens up to about 40,000 years of age. Essentially nothing of evolutionary significance is believed to have occurred in this "short" time frame. The most commonly used radiometric methods for "dating" geological specimens are potassium-argon, uranium-thorium-lead, and strontium-rubidium. All three of these decay processes have half-lives measured in billions of years. None of these methods can be used on fossils or the sedimentary rock in which fossils are found. All radiometric dating (with the exception of carbon dating) must be done on igneous rocks (rocks solidified from a molten state such as lava). These radiometric "clocks" begin keeping time when the molten rock solidifies. Since fossils are never found in igneous rocks, one can only date lava flows that are occasionally found between layers of sedimentary rock. The problem with all radiometric "clocks" is that their accuracy critically depends on several starting assumptions which are largely unknowable. To date a specimen by radiometric means, one must first know the starting amount of the parent isotope at the beginning of the specimen's existence. Second, one must be certain that there were no daughter isotopes in the beginning. Third, one must be certain that neither parent nor daughter isotopes have ever been added or removed from the specimen. And fourth, one must be certain that the decay rate of parent isotope to daughter isotope has always been the same. That one or more of these assumptions are often invalid is obvious from the published radiometric "dates" (to say nothing of unpublished dates) found in the literature. One of the most obvious problems is that several samples from the same location often give widely-divergent ages. Apollo moon samples, for example, were dated by both uranium-thorium-lead and potassium-argon methods, giving results which varied from 2 million to 28 billion years. Lava flows from volcanoes on the north rim of the Grand Canyon (which erupted after its formation) show potassium-argon dates a billion years "older" than the most ancient basement rocks at the bottom of the canyon. Lava from underwater volcanoes near Hawaii (that are known to have erupted in 1801 AD) have been "dated" by the potassium-argon method with results varying from 160 million to nearly 3 billion years. No wonder the laboratories that "date" rocks insist on knowing in advance the "evolutionary age" of the strata from which the samples were taken -- this way, they know which dates to accept as "reasonable" and which to ignore. Of one thing you may be sure: whenever "absolute" radiometric dates are in substantial disagreement with evolutionary assumptions about the age of associated fossils, the fossils always prevail. As far as the plausibility of evolution is concerned, it really doesn't make any difference if the earth is 10 billion years old or 10 thousand years old. Indeed, if the whole of evolution were reduced to nothing more than the chance production of a single copy of any one biologically useful protein, there would be insufficient time and material in the known universe to make this even remotely likely. Time by itself simply does not make the hopeless evolutionary scenario of chance and natural selection more reasonable. Imagine if a child were to claim that he alone could build a Boeing 747 airplane from raw material in 10 seconds, and another were to claim he could do it in 10 days. Would we consider the later less foolish then the former, simply because he proposed spending nearly a million times more time at the task? Our Creator tells that "the fool has said in his heart, there is no God." Originally published in <CITE>St. Louis MetroVoice</CITE>, August 1994, Vol. 4, No. 8

Hello Muniloka! Please read Bhagavat Gita As It Is written by AC. BhaktiVedanta Swami Prabhupada The book answers all the questions you have posed in this thread. Thanks.