realist31

I take Prabhupadas words seriously because he manifested certain good qualities that speak for themselves and set him apart from just an average joe. So it isn't just blind faith.

There are lot of people who have manifested certain good qualites and are you willing to take their words as well?

I believe they were just ordinary people empowered by God. Prabhupada warned us against accepting jivas as God. Thus Christians who accept Jesus as God are wrong in a fundamental way. I reject this type of worship and religion, just like I reject the worship of Sai Baba as God. Muslims at least do not worship their Prophet as God and in that way can be seen as closer to Vaishnavism than Christianity. But I would still not consider them to be Vaishnavas, unless you define the term "Vaishnava" as merely "theist". Shivaites are teists too, yet Prabhupada calls them "demigod worshippers". To me, that is very inconsistent.

 

That is why I concluded that preaching to people of Abrahamic faith Prabhupada adopted the broadest possible definition of Vaishnavism in order to make the transition to the actual Vaishnavism easier for these people.

Why should Prabupadas words be final?Just curious about it thats all,i dont hate him but why is every other prophet or god man or anyones word not taken,Sai Baba claims people are fools who dont realise he is GOD himself,why not take his word and why only Prabupada

Bhagavad Gita As It Is <center>Chapter 9. The Most Confidential Knowledge</center>

 

TEXT 11

 

 

avajananti mam mudha

manusim tanum asritam

param bhavam ajananto

mama bhuta-mahesvaram

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

avajananti--deride; mam--Me; mudhah--foolish men; manusim--in human form; tanum--body; asritam--assuming; param--transcendental; bhavam--nature; ajanantah--not knowing; mama--Mine; bhuta--everything that be; maha-isvaram--the supreme proprietor.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.

 

PURPORT

 

.

This is exactly how people like SaiBaba get away,by calling all the nonbelievers as fools and people in Maaya

Saibaba tells us he also came from above in a Transcendental form and is supreme,so are we going to accept that as well?

Personally, I do not see any fault in that episode - not because I'm afraid to criticize an avatara of Lord Vishnu, but because I do not see any fault in this behavior given the situation in which Rama was placed.

 

I am also not stupid enough to think that my vision is perfect, or that my knowledge of the situation is complete. And even if I thought Lord Krsna's behavior was not perfect by all standards, so what? Does that negate the fact that He is the Supreme Lord who descended here out of His free will?

 

Finding faults is easy for me, but I have to also be honest.

Visnu is supreme but his Avatars are not is what i am telling and reasons are given,just cause you may not agree still doesnt mean they are not flaws,i dont see any other reason other than fear to question GOD(not realising Rama wasn't GOD,in Ramayana he is said as a King,a warrior and maybe a Avatar where does it say he is god,if he was god why did he die,in Krishanavatar why did he pay for his sin of shooting vaali from behind by getting killed by the archer who was Vaali in the next birth?Why did he pray Lord Shiva to fight Ravana?)

I am not finding faults either but what he did wasnt a act of bravery or he wasnt all that invincible,Visnu is but not Rama,think it this way,we are all created by Visnu,but none of us are perfect,same way Rama was above us but below Visnu or Shiva or any GOD.

Avatar is not GOD so need to be exempt from criticism and Rama did pay for his sins in his next birth,so what does that imply.

Hari Om Namachivaya

Is it not the same old arrogance again?

 

Christians missed the point...we know this because we Hare Krishnas got the point.

Muslims missed the point...we know this because we Hare Krishnas got the point.

Hindus missed the point...we know this because we Hare Krishnas got the point.

 

Ultimately Hare Krishnas have got everything right. These who differ have got it wrong. Plain and Simple.

 

I am not as baffled by this arrogance as I am at the nonsense value of such an attitude towards religion.

Very well said,this is the bottomline of every so called devotee who bashes the other,it all started with Prabupada calling Lord Siva as Demigod and twisted lot of things to suit him and thats pure EGO working there and people fail to acknowledge,like one user here said it all comes from Krishna,then why bother to call someone demon or nonbeliever when its all Krishna who originites?

Why not allow people to criticise avatars like Rama who did have flaws like i mentioned and not judge them saying "Oh how dare you criticise Rama,you Southies are demons blah blah"

No one seem to answer some important questions here as to why Hare Krsna people are still not in GOLOKA and what is that great about GOLOKA compared to Indralok etc..im sure they will come up with answers which the brain generates but again the others dont know anything and have figured out nothing except them

What different is this to Christians who believe only they go to heaven and all others rot in HELL..

Firstly the Brahma Samhita teaches us that Krishna is the cause of all causes, .

Well if that is true then the Criticism he gets is also originate from him,if Visnu originated from Krsna so did the asuras and aethists,you me and everyone,then why judge anyone,even those who criticize him?Its all Krsna

This is because Lord Ram is highly famous. That is why, they target Him.

ALso he killed vaali hiding from behind which shows he was desperate and proved he wasnt confident of beating him face to face,which makes me flawful.

Also Rama and Krsna both died and that makes them mortals

Just imagine this

Krishna enjoyed lot of women,if any man does that its considered Adultery,so you are not questioning him just cause he is a Avatar,but people who have no fear and love to GOD question them.

Ramas act would be attribute to cowardise if he was a man and not a avatar so you are not questioning him just cause he is a Avatar,but people who have no fear and love to GOD question them.

But the fact is we are a piece of Narayana so we are allowed to criticise Rama or Krishna but not Narayana..

It is probably OK to think like that, but why does Lord Vishnu appear as such "imperfect" avatars? Essentially to help us, and to have some entertainment by being "imperfect".

Think about it this way,we all are created by god (i believe Visnu and Shiva both being supreme)and lets say Visnu creates us,none of us are perfect,that doesnt make him imperfect,sameway his Avatars were certainly not perfect,you dont have to just say they are perfect out of fear,that is what the people who target the avatars are doing,pointing their flaws and that is perfectly ok,they are not saying Rama is bad,they are saying Rama did a bad thing,that is shooting Vaali from behind,no matter whether he is avatar or not we have the right to say that,dont we?Otherwise he will become a dictator and we will be praying him out of fear and not love,so where is the Bakthi there?

So its ok to Criticise Avatars,but Parabrahman Visnu is flawless,and no Southindian movie has made fun of him,so instead of Twisiting this thing lets accept the truth as it is..

You might quote whatever from Bagavad Geetha but you have to understand the flaws i mentioned did exist and Bagavad Geetha is Krishna verse and he isnt going to call himself inferior,you have to have a neutral view to judge someone.

Imagine if Lord Shiva did these mistakes in his avatars,wont you criticize him and ask for explanation as to why he did it.

We have the brain and we are allowed to question god for what he did,only he can answer it and you cant judge people who target the avatars as they do based on the epics.

Are you suggesting that these Avatars are beyond criticism or questioning,that would make them more like Dictators isnt it?

In Shiva Purana shiva plays a leela in which Nakeerar questions his poem and shiva accepts his mistakes,maybe the people who target Rama and Krishna are like Nakeerar and maybe god might say they are right in the criticism,how do you know?

GOD Never expects us to be his Yes man,then it would be like Christians who cant do anything other than follow 10 commandments or else they burn in hell,that isnt Hinduism

Very Simple ,Vaishanava GODS like Rama or Krishna were not as perfect as a GOD is,they are avatars and not parabrahm like the Trinity of gods.

Rama killed Vaali hiding behind the trees,no matter what you say to justify it,it still shows Vaalis powers are more superior to Ramas and it makes it seem he has no way to kill Vaali other than by deciet

Same way Krsna sided Pandavas even though Pandavas were far from perfect,how else do u explain the arrogance of Bheema and Arjuna all along Mahabaratha and still Krsna side them and also kill Kauravas by pure deciet and treason.

So that is why these Avatars(Not GODS)are targetted

Rama and Krishna died like mortals they are not GODS but Avatars.They were also bound by their actions(Karma of the past)and were not invincible.

Krishna could not even save Abhimanyu,all he did was save Pandavas but he had lot of double standard.

He never revelaed Karnas identity to Arjnua but revelaved Arjuna was Karnas brother to Karna

He hampered Karna in more than one way and never cared to think about the insults Karna was put that prompted him to side Duryodana

He enjoyed sensual pleasures and that makes me more mortal.

Narayana is ultimate god and worth of worship but if you take Rama or Krishna they had lots of flaws,not as much as common humans have but still they had likes and dislikes

Krishna talks about how not to have EGO and says he wont support arrogant people and support only humble and righteous people,what about Bheema and Arjuna who were arrogant and also Yudhistra and other pandavas lusted for Panchali before Kunti asked them to share her..

Visnu is supreme not his avatars.

Very Simple ,Vaishanava GODS like Rama or Krishna were not as perfect as a GOD is,they are avatars and not parabrahm like the Trinity of gods.

Rama killed Vaali hiding behind the trees,no matter what you say to justify it,it still shows Vaalis powers are more superior to Ramas and it makes it seem he has no way to kill Vaali other than by deciet

Same way Krsna sided Pandavas even though Pandavas were far from perfect,how else do u explain the arrogance of Bheema and Arjuna all along Mahabaratha and still Krsna side them and also kill Kauravas by pure deciet and treason.

So that is why these Avatars(Not GODS)are targetted

Rama and Krishna died like mortals they are not GODS but Avatars.

Is GOLOKA better than Swarga or Indralok or Vaikunta?How better it is compared to the material world,lets say a guy is lucky to have everything in this material world,Health Wealth and women everything,is GOLOKA still a better place to be than the person with all these in abundance.

How many of you(Please be honest) would choose to have a eternal enjoyment over GOLOKA if offered both and give me a reason if you still choose GOLOKA over sense enjoyment place that everlasts(if at all one exists that way).this is a hypothetical situation but i still want to know the reason GOLOKA is considered as the ultimate..

The exalted Devotee Arjuna fought for Material wealth with the help of Krsna,why didnt he choose to just go to GOLOKA rather than fight for sense enjoyment on earth if GOLOKA is all that great?

Why doesnt Indra go to GOLOKA rather than enjoy Indralok when he is close to Visnu and still choose to have his own kingdom that gets conquered by demons all the time?

First off, there really is no such thing as an ISKCONis. Despite what some believe ISKCON is part of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya coming down to this world by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and his Six Goswamis of Vrndavana.

 

In short this is an absurd way to put the question if in fact you are seeking an intelligent discussion. Every soul that is in this world is here for the same reason. Krsna is all attractive but His material energy is very attractive to conditioned souls because it is a field in which we can act out our perverted propensity to enjoy separately from God and therefore our own spiritual nature. In this condition the actual nature of the soul is covered by the gross and subtle elements of nature. By faith we are taking the Name of Krsna but generally what we hear is the air vibrating against our ear drum. This is not the name proper or suddha nama. This suddha Name descends from Gololka when He is pleased with His devotee or just by His own sweet will (causeless mercy). There are so many practices of sadhana bhakti but still, no one can force Krsna to reveal Himself for He is by Himself and for Himself or a Transcendental Autocrat.

U dont have to get all arrogant here man,my question is in no way absurd,if u dont know the answer or if u dont think u can answer it then u dont have to ridicule it,this kinda arrogance is going to make Krsna stay away from u,im a devotee and u have no right to insult me or my opinions because we r all still learning and seeking his divine grace,all i asked was why are Krsna devotees still not in GOLOKA and ur answer is totally irrelevant and offtopic.

When you say that gods like Lord Shiva are just demi gods and the worlds they are governed by like say Buloka are full of pleasures that dont last long and only GOLOKA is the ultimate and being with Lord Visnu or Krsna is the best thing to ever happen to anyone,when does that going to happen to any devotee who wants that or who decides to surrender in the lotus feet of Visnu?

Is there a number of years or number of times that we need to chant Krsna mantra?

How can someone really compete for the Lords attention when everything and everyone are small in front of him?

In short,why are even ISKCONis put in this world which isnt the ultimate if you go by what they claim as far as Krsna is concerned.

Sri Sri Lord Satya Sai Baba gave me darshan as Srikrishna.

Are you joking?I didnt know he has that good of a makeup man with him,liars like you will go to Naraka for degrading Sri Krishna

Why has this not happened yet,why is god waiting to punish such people who not only misuse his name but also ruin the whole nation by hurting people and also confusing innocent people and exploit their weakness

All my life i have been either a Vishnu or Shiva worshipper or not believe in god at all,which happens due to my mind or brain that questions everything,but i have to admit that i am totally confused as to who Sathya Sai Baba is,all his devotees claim he is god and people like me who dont understand is are either ignorant or arrogant or full of past karmas that prevent me from understanding him,what is your(ISKCONIs)take on this,please give me specific examples or quotes from Bagavatham or Geetha so that next time i am countered by them questioning my belief on Vishnu and claiming Sathya Sai is all gods put together i can also answer back in the right word

Hari Bol...Hari Om Namachivaya

A materialist is a honest hardworking man who tries to survive,a devotee who makes fun of materialist is a egoistic person who couldnt make it big in material world so calls it sour grapes and thinks he is blessed and taken care by Krsna who died a long time back.

Both devotee and materialist die and become ash thats the truth,you can be either one depending on what you want,a lazy devotee who couldnt take care of samsara and dreams of goloka or a materialist who atleast tries to utilise this life,thinking of krsna is not going to spare you from death or illness or poverty if you dont work hard.Choice is yours.

"Is Srila Prabupada a politician or a religious GURU?Stealing is better than Inaction what kinda teaching is that,so Duryodana is better than someone who commits neither sin nor great deeds?"

 

Srila Prabhupada understood the nature of all material roles in society. From Politician to "Religionist" to thief.

 

The rest of that conversation's context is not handy.

 

Srila Prabhupada never recommended any of his disciples steal.

 

He wanted them to be honest and upfront in their dealings, and to stratify the Iskcon society according to the pious categories of Intellectual priestly class, Noble Administrator class, Efficient Merchant/Agriculturist class, and the class of honest assistants who could take direction and serve the other classes.

 

If that is actually a real conversation and not something someone made up to draw question to Srila Prabhupada's morality, then it can be explained like this.

 

In today's day and age, the stark truth is that all societies are corrupt. The american society started out with some ideal despite the breaking of so many standards, at least there were some respect for individual rights and orderly behavior.

 

But the Cesars and King George's of the world and their minions quickly infiltrated, and now the honest person sees that the Bankers and their corporate military industrial complex rule the world. Every one is ignorant of how to live in harmony with nature on all levels, and there is perverted exploitation of material nature without vedic regulation. In other words, we are all stealing.

 

A lazy person could certainly be tempted to use their mind to try to manipulate others to do their stealing for them. Thus directly enslaving others and deepening their already bad karma.

 

Better that they get up and consciously steal for their share. This is actually less damaging karmically. And they will probably get caught and be forced into repentance sooner. To consider their miserable position honestly, and be primed with humility and more able to receive grace.

 

Through Srila Prabhupada no one is safe! He had the whole world in his crosshairs. As soon as all those who misrepresent him are fully revealed and brought to justice, his truthsayers will inundate the world unabated with his mercy and wisdom.

 

Jaya Prabhupada

So he did ask people to steal as in his dictionary it is better to steal than have others to steal..

Prabupada had the whole world ih his crosshairs and no one is safe?So he is GOD?He looks like a old poor man who couldnt make a succesful family or materialistic life so preaches the world his sour grapes theory,he is the one who is asking others to steal and carries bad Karma.

Dont worry,thats life,there is no logic sometimes,people might say its Bad Karma and all that to rationalise your misery and hurt you more,rather keep fighting,life is a game of luck,no one knows what happens the next moment,whether you worry about Krishna or not things will happen the way no one expects.Why you expect Krishna to change it for you,even those who have been chanting his name all the time die or get sick or suffer,he himself was supposed to have been killed by a arrow,even he existed he isnt here now,so stop blaming him or praising him.Dont expect anything from anyone.