Shakti-Fan

I'm not promoting myself as a Vaisnava. I'm a Christian, therefore I can't be a Vaisnava, remember?

This is what I alleged six weeks ago and was met with a smokescreen! You may say that his reply above is sarcastic but where there is smoke there is fire.

 

 

And a Christian on a campaign against the Vaisnava concept of guru.

What could be more obvious?

I wrote some 2400 posts at this forum if you conclude that this is a stupid parrot then I'll be a parrot. Thanks sd.

Could you elaborate on this. What exactly do you mean?

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

We should understand that without guru we are bound to have material attachment and we are bound to commit nama-aparadha. If the seed of sambandha-jnana (ones relationship with Krsna) and bhakti are not given by a pure guru, there can be no sabda-brahma (experience of transcendental sound, sound coming from the transcendental realm). Acceptance and surrender to a sad-guru is therefore essential.

Although Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He also accepted a guru. Once the gopis teased Him by saying, "You have no guru?"

Krsna replied, "Who has said this? My Gurudeva is Bhaguri Rsi."

It is generally accepted that Krsna's guru was Sandipani Muni, but actually Sandipani Muni was like a siksa-guru – His guru of the 64 arts. He was like a schoolteacher. Krsna received Radha-mantra from Bhaguri Rsi, and therefore it is Bhaguri Rsi who is really the guru of Krsna. In this world, when Krsna or any His avataras descend, they accept guru. Mahaprabhu also accepted guru. He accepted harinama and gopal-mantra from Sri Isvara Puripada, and He Himself said to Prakasananda Sarasvati:

prabhu kahe——suna, sripada, ihara karana

guru more murkha dekhi' karila sasana

["My dear sir, kindly hear the reason why I always chant Hare Krsna. My spiritual master considered Me a fool, and therefore he chastised Me." (Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 7.71)]

murkha tumi, tomara nahika vedantadhikara

'krsna-mantra' japa sada,——ei mantra-sara

["'You are a fool,' he said. 'You are not qualified to study Vedanta philosophy, and therefore You must always chant the holy name of Krsna, which is the essence of all mantras, or Vedic hymns. "(Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 7.72)]

Caitanya Mahaprabhu quoted his spiritual master as saying, "You have no qualification to enter Vedanta philosophy. You are foolish and ignorant, and you should therefore simply chant harinama.

harer nama harer nama

harer namaiva kevalam

kalau nasty eva nasty eva

nasty eva gatir anyatha

["In this Age of Kali there is no other means, no other means, no other means for self-realization than chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name of Lord Hari."(Caitanya-caritamrta Adi lila, 17.21)]

His Gurudeva gave Him this mantra:

Hare Krsna Hare Krsna

Krsna Krsna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare

Why did Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu not utter the name of His sannyasa guru, Kesava Bharati?After all, acceptance of sannyasa is not a small thing. It is not less than harinama or diksa initiation. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself had first spoken the sannyasa mantra into the ear of Kesava Bharati, and after that Kesava Bharati spoke it into Mahaprabhu's ear.

Therefore, Caitanya Mahaprabhu only told Prakasananda Sarasvati the name of Sri Isvara Puri, and He said that the mantra given by Isvara Puri had made Him like a madman. In His human-like pastimes, if these mantras had not been given by Sri Isvara Puripada, the result could not be as it was. He would not have developed His relationship with Krsna and He would not have tasted such prema. We should try to know all these truths.

Gaura premanande

Sri Vraja-dhama-mahimamrita

The Nectarean Glories of Vraja-dhama

(6)jaya jaya gopiswara vrindavana-maj jaya jaya krishna-sakha batu dwija-raj

(6) All glories, all glories to Gopisvara Siva, who resides in Vrindavana in order to protect the holy dhama. All glories, all glories to Krishna's funny brahmana friend, Madhumangala.

The Pinnacle of Devotion

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

“Lord Siva wanted to become a gopi. He performed austerities, and when Paurnamasi Yogamaya became pleased and appeared before him, he prayed to join Krsna’s rasa-lila. Paurnamasi mercifully assisted him in dipping in Brahma-kunda, and he immediately assumed the form of a teenage gopi. He then went to the place where rasa-lila was being performed, and hid there in a grove.

“Krsna and the gopis sensed that someone of a different mood had come. They asked each other, ‘Why are you not so happy today? What is the matter?’ After searching, they discovered the new gopi and asked ‘her’, ‘Who are you? What is your name? Who are your parents? What is your husband’s name? Where is your in-laws’ house?’

“When Siva could not reply, they began to slap her so much that her cheeks became swollen and she began to cry, ‘Yogamaya, Yogamaya. Save me. I will never again come to Vrndavana, and I will never dare take part in rasa-lila.’ Paurnamasi arrived, and she requested the gopis to show Lord Siva mercy. ‘She is the object of my mercy,’ Paurnamasi told them. The gopis then accepted her as a gopi and Krsna named her Gopisvara (she whose isvaras, controllers, are the gopis). He blessed her to become the guard of the rasa-lila and said, ‘Without the sanction of Gopisvara, no one will be able to enter the rasa-lila.’ ”

Gosh could I have meant East Indian , like from India? could be:rolleyes:

 

 

White man, cbrahma speak with forked tongue, kimosabe!

 

 

Beggar plays three roles on this thread: Dr. Strangelove, President Merkin Muffley and Group Captain Lionel Mandrake.

 

 

 

 

 

AHA!!! I KNEW IT ALL ALONG!

That's the way ISKCON hooks you in. "Oh all you have to do is take prasadam and chant" Yah right. Then comes the sting - 'Oh but devotional service is the whole point of chanting". which comes down to serving THEM and contributing to their economic development.

Been there, done that.

So if you feel cheated that they are not giving the real thing then try another sanga. If groups are not your thing, then stay by yourself and chant. You can adopt those parts of the process which are favorable for your own development and conditonal nature. May I suggest that you read about the dealings amongst genuine Vaisnavas in Jaiva Dharma. You can read it online at: http://www.bvml.org/SBNM/JaivaDharma/index.html

5.18

tad raksakatve tat karunyam eva karanam -

pracinanam bhajanam atulam duskaram srnvato me

nairasyena jvalati hrdayam bhakh lesalasasya

visva-dricim aghahara tavakarnya karunya vicim

asa-binduksitam idam upaity antare hanta saityam

<table width="95%"> <!-- Table 126 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td>Sri Rupapadanam</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

The cause of the Lord's protectiveness is His mercy alone -

"O destroyer of sin, my heart is averse to a trace of devotion, and it burns in the fire of hopelessness when I hear about the incomparable, formidable devotional services rendered by the great predecessor devotees. But now that I have heard about the wave of Your mercy which floods the universe, the core of my heart, sprinkled by a drop of hope, is soothed with cooling relief once again."

<table width="95%"> <!-- Table 127 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td>Sri Rupa Goswami</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

 

By normal, I mean practical and sound. I don't mean conformity to the world. To speak in such a cavalier fashion about how 'both are possible' is just so much carbon dioxide. I don't know what your practices are, but they are obviously not the Vaisnava cum brahmana style. You can't even walk into the bathroom and then into the kitchen. You have become ritually unclean. There are literally hundreds of such ritual rules. Is that how you live?

What about the story of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His servant (whose name I forgot): Mahaprabhu is always chanting Krsna nama incessently but when he goes to pass water he stops. Then his servant reminds Him that there are no hard and fast rules for taking Krsna nama meaning that it can be done anywhere and at anytime. Then Mahaprabhu tells him, "today you have become my guru." Isn't this chanting of Krsna nama the process or Yuga dharma for this age?

Do you have a guru? In the Indian system your guru is literally your master. It is a master/servant relationship. The guru can tell you to jump in the lake and you have to do it. Do you have that kind of guru? You better be sure he is completely self-realized. I haven't met anybody like that so far.

An Indian system? I have never heard of such a system Kimosabe!

 

Beggar I believe is snapping at my heels again.

 

 

 

Uh uh brother, I don't want no Wild Man (Beggar) snappin at my heels!

<table class="contentpaneopen"><tbody><tr><td class="contentheading" width="100%"> Granting Perfect Love </td> <td class="buttonheading" align="right" width="100%">

</td> <td class="buttonheading" align="right" width="100%">

</td> </tr> </tbody></table> LORD Shiva'S HIGHEST BENEDICTION

By Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja ... Lord Shiva eternally resides in Lord Krishna’s abode, Vrindavana, where he manifests many forms to render devotional services to Him. The form of Gopishvara Mahadeva was manifested by Lord Krishna’s desire. When Krishna desired to perform His Rasa dance, Srimati Radhika, the embodiment of His pleasure potency, manifested from His left side and Gopishvara Mahadeva manifested from His right side. The form of Shiva who lives in Kashi or Kailash in the material world is a partial manifestation of the original SadaShiva in Vrindavana. The many other commonly worshiped forms of Lord Shiva are expansions of SadaShiva. They are not the original. Partial expansions such as Pippaleshvara Mahadeva, Bhuteshvara Mahadeva, Rangeshvara Mahadeva and so on, cannot award the benediction that can be attained by the mercy of Gopishvara - the highest perfection of love, namely Vraja-Prema.

Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami has composed a prayer in his Vraja-vilasa-stava:

muda gopendrasyatmaja bhuja parisranga nidhaye

sphurad gopirvrndair yam iha bhagavatam pranayibhih

bhajadbhistair bhaktyas vamabhilasitam praptam acirad

yamitire gopisvaram anudinam tam kila bhaje

'I daily worship Gopishvara Mahadeva, who is situated on the bank of Yamuna. That very Gopishvara was worshipped with deep devotion by the Gopis, and he quickly fulfilled their desire to attain a supremely precious jewel in the form of the embrace of the son of Nanda Maharaja [Krishna].'

Srila Sanatana Gosvami, the great Vaishnava saint who resided in Vrindavana near the old Sri Madana-Mohana temple, would go daily to see Sri Gopishvara Mahadeva at his temple. Once, in his older years, Sanatana Gosvami had a dream wherein Gopishvara Mahadeva appeared and instructed him: "Now that you are old, please do not go through so much trouble to see me." Sanatana Gosvami replied, "I will continue to come. I cannot change this habit." Gopishvara Mahadeva said, "Then I will come and stay very near to your residence, manifesting in Bankhandi" The very next day, Sri Gopishvara Mahadeva appeared in Bankhandi, halfway between his original temple and Srila Sanatana Gosvami's residence. Seeing this, Sanatana Gosvami became overwhelmed with transcendental ecstasy, and from that day on he visited Bankhandi Mahadeva every day.

Wherever he was, Srila Sanatana Gosvami could not live without his beloved Lord Shiva - Gopishvara Mahadeva and Bankhandi Mahadeva in Vrindavana, and Kameshvara Mahadeva in Kamyavana forest. In Govardhana he would stay near his very dear friend, Cakreshvara Mahadeva, who acquired the name when he served Govardhana Hill and the Vrajavasis by holding up his trident like a Chakra, protecting them from the torrential deluge sent by King Indra. Prior to this, Lord Shiva, had asked Sri Krishna for the boon to witness His childhood pastimes. Krishna ordered him to situate himself in Nandagaon in the form of a hill. Shiva followed this order and became Nandishvara Hill, and he thus became known as Nandishvara. (Lord Brahma became Brahma-parvata, the mountain in Srimati Radhika's birthplace, Varshana. Because Brahma is so near to Radhika, he is also our Gurudeva.)

We honour Lord Shiva as a great Vaishnava and as Guru. We do not worship him separately. We observe Shiva-ratri, Lord Shiva's appearance day, and we glorify him in connection to his relationship with Sri Krishna. Srila Sanatana Gosvami has written in his Hari-Bhakti-vilasa that all Vaishnavas should observe Shiva-caturdasi (Shiva-ratri). Lord Shiva in whom all good qualities reside, should certainly be honoured by the observance of this day.

We offer obeisance to Lord Shiva with prayers like this:

vrindavanavani-pate! jaya soma soma-maule

sanaka-sanandana-sanatana-naradedya

gopisvara! vraja-vilasi-yuganghri-padme

prema prayaccha nirupadhi namo namas te

'O Gatekeeper of Vrindavana! O Soma, all glories to you! O you whose forehead is decorated with the moon, and who is worship able by the sages headed by Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana and Narada! O Gopishvara! Desiring that you bestow upon me prema for the lotus feet of Sri Sri Radha- Madhava, who perform joyous pastimes in Vraja- Dhama, I offer obeisance’s unto you time and again.'

From the small book "Siva Tattva" - ISBN #81-86737-74-X, Gaudiya Vedanta Publications 2005

Srila Narayana Maharaj:

sarva-dharman parityajya

mam ekam saranam vraja

aham tvam sarva-papebhyo

moksayisyami ma sucah["As stated in scripture [bG. 18.66], ‘After giving up all kinds of religious and occupational duties, if you come to Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and take shelter, I will give you protection from all of life's sinful reactions. Do not worry.'" (CC Madhya 8.63)]

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, “This is external. Say something further. Saranagati alone will not suffice.” Saranagati is in reference to being protected by Sri Krsna. It is for taking something from Him. Therefore it not bhakti, but rather the doorway to bhakti. The bhakti that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given is on a post-graduate level. Before Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Lord Ramacandra and others gave gopi-bhava, but not manjari-bhava. He is so generous, kind and merciful – more so than Krsna. The sages of Dandakaranya had performed austerities for hundreds of thousands of years. But now, by chanting "Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna" and "Sri Krsna Caitanya Prabhu Nityananda", that kind of prema can come to a devotee in one, two, or three births. This is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s full mercy.

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

Saranagati is actually not bhakti. It is the step leading towards bhakti; it is the door through which one must go to enter into the realm of bhakti. In this verse, sarva dharma parityajya, there is no mention of direct service to Sri Krsna. In Sri Brhad-bhagavatamrta Arjuna was speaking with Sri Narada about the time he received the instructions of the Gita, because Narada had glorified him saying “You are a great personality. Krsna directly instructed you in the Bhagavad-gita.” What was Arjuna’s opinion in regards to this? He said, “Actually I am not the true recipient of Krsna’s mercy, because I am His friend. I have a relationship as a friend. But what did He say to me? He told me, ‘You should perform saranagati, because this is the doorway to bhakti. I have already established a relationship with Him as a friend. By giving me that instruction he did not make me the recipient of His mercy. He cheated me. If He had given me a blessing that I could obtain Vraja-bhakti, service to Him in Vraja, that would have been a real blessing. Instead He told me to perform saranagati; so I have been cheated.”

This teaching gives guidance to the people in general. In saranagati there is no conception of svarupa anubandhi – the eternal relationship between the svarupa of the soul and the svarupa of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Krsna says in this verse, “Mah sucah – don’t be afraid.” The surrender in this verse is inspired by fear, not by a loving relationship. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu therefore said [to Sri Ramananda Raya], “Eho bahya, age kaha ara – speak something further.”

<!-- / message --> <!-- sig --> __________________

2/19/41 --- "My dear Lord, one who earnestly waits for You to bestow Your causeless mercy upon him, all the while patiently suffering the reactions of his past misdeeds and offering You respectful obeisance’s with his heart, words and body, is surely eligible for devotion, for it has become his rightful claim". SB 10.14.8

 

Yes, it does give me solace. You know that picture from Marseille in 1941 is kind of growing on me too.

Nice suite.

WHAT A NONSENSE

 

Hey Einstein (Kulapavana) This material creation IS mahat-tattva and the mahat-tattva IS the inferior energies of the Lord - Read SRILA PRABHUPADA'S BOOKS, you might learn something!!

Jaiva Dharma, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

mahat-tattva - the unmanifest aggregate of the material elements.

Srimad Bhagavatam Purport by Srila Prabhupada:

"Material resources and the capacity and knowledge to work are all generated in the second term of creation, after the mahat-tattva."

Purport SB 3.10.15

So obviously the "first term of creation is that of the mahat-tattva, then there are other terms of creation after the mahat-tattva. From subtle to gross is how the creation unfolds.

Many posters on this forum tend to propagandize their viewpoints, or their guru and camp etc. We all do to some extent, because whatever we have learned about Krsna Consciousness we have learned from others who by the system of guru/disciple we are beholden. Yet this is called "Spiritual Discussions" and really to discuss a topic we must at least at some point retreat to the neutral position. From that neutral position we can at least try to be open minded and see the other side of an issue, after all that's what a discussion really is, for it is not a monologue to ourselves or our own mind. I don't think in the last few years of first lurking on these discussions and then becoming a poster, that I have seen such a dedicated propagandist and anti-discusser as Gaura Gopal Prabhu AKA Sarva gattah, Swarupa, Vigraha et. all. It seems that his real purpose on Audarya, Spiritual Discussions is to convince as many viewers and poster, especially those who are sitting on the fence of his viewpoint on the origin of the jiva. For the most part he represents a belief system that is quite rigid and authoritarian, something like a right wing politician bordering on some sort of facism. He wraps himself in the flag of loyalty to Srila Prabhupada implying that he alone, along with his small coterie, has the real vision of Srila Prabhupada.

It's almost as if Spiritual Discussions is some sort of internet talk show, except that our words come out through a keyboard, and some of us are competing to be the host or moderator. Earlier today, Pacific U.S. time, I responded with a barrage of cut and paste posts. I did this to point out that this is what we are being subjected to, although Theist took it straight and it went over his head. Personally, I really don't want to be the host of this show and I don't spend my days obsessing over the origin of the soul. But somehow even if I am misguided by my own egotism, Gaura Gopal's brazen attempt to take over this forum with his ideology, really pushes my buttons. Militant Rtvks, Fall-vadis and Sleeper-vadis are the "chosen ones" they believe that they are Prabhupada's real followers and that everyone else is a dupe. They are militant because within their harangue and rant, is a basic black and white judgment of those who do not agree. Theirs is not a world of shades of gray but rather black and white. They are the fundamentalists, even the literists (even more rigid than literalists) of the Krsna Consciousness family. Such a mentality does not engage in discussion but rather immediately draws battle lines. The real question for those of use not of that ilk is how should we respond, to those who are trying to muscle us by their words of judgment and condemnation? Yeah, I know that sometimes I can be very judgmental also. But I can safely say that sometimes I can step back and doubt my own sureness. After all, are not I also a person who despite so much reading, hearing and chanting bewildered by the allurements of this world? So who am I to chastise others thereby taking a role that is really an monopoly of a person in the position of guru? So yes even though my humility is mostly false, sometimes I get a glimpse of this and I believe this is what it takes to enter into an honest discussion. And yes, I am tired of being hammered by all the propaganda, which is inserted somehow, even at the bottom of all such posts, even if it appears to be a different topic It's like a relentless barrage, almost like we are being bombed by words in an attempt to make us submit. So this goes far beyond the issue of the origin of the soul. It is even more primal than a question of whether it is spiritual in quality, the real question is where is there sanity in it? All kidding aside to me it seems a type of obsessive madness, and we should wonder what lies beneath it? And hope and pray that it is not contagious.

Very good post Grasshopper! Now you have learned your lesson well, my son. Ahead of you are great challenges. Remember, always walk lightly on rice paper, never to crack it and always carry a big stick.

Yes, before I was initiated I used to be bhaktin Susanna. That's why I married Beggar, because he is such a good song writer and understands siddhanta.

I came from the Viraja River

With my mrdanga on my knee,

I'm goin' to West Bengal

My favorite diety for to see;

It rained all night the day I left,

The weather it was dry;

The sun so hot I froze to death;

bhaktin Susanna, don't you cry.

 

O, bhaktin Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

I've come from the Viraja River

With my mrdanga on my knee.

O, Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

'Cause I'm goin' to West Bengal,

My favorite diety for to see.

 

I had a dream the other night

When ev'rything was still;

I thought I saw bhaktin Susanna

A-comin' down the hill;

An Ekadasi buckwheat cake was in her mouth,

The tear was in her eye;

Says I, I'm comin' from the south,

bhaktin Susanna, don't you cry.

 

O, bhaktin Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

I've come from the Viraja River

With my mrdanga on my knee.

O, Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

'Cause I'm goin' to Uttar Pradesa,

My ista deva for to see.

 

I soon will be in New Delhi,

And then I'll look around,

And when I find the temple

I'll fall upon the ground.

And if I do not find the temple,

Then I will surely die,

And when I'm dead and cremated,

bhaktin Susanna, don't you cry.

 

O, bhaktin Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

I've come from the Viraja River

With my mrdanga on my knee.

O, bhaktin Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

'Cause I'm goin' to U.P,

My ista deva for to see.

Do I understand this correctly, Srila Narayana Maharaja has the key and only through him Prabhupada's books can be understood?

Yeah, I was wondering the same. Seems kind of strange to me but what do I know. I guess Narayana Maharaja has been especially empowered to determine who is sadhus and who is not?

Any bonafide high type of Gaudiya Vaisnava sadhu or guru in the family of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura has the key to open the door to the teachings of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and his followers. Srila Narayana Maharaja is not the only present living guru; There are others like Srila Puri Maharaja, Srila Govinda Maharaja, Srila B.B. Tirtha Maharaja and Srila Bodhayana Maharaja. All these gentleman offer a very high class of association. There may be one or more within ISKCON whether rubber stamped or not, I don't know. There may be others also. It's not the bottle but the contents of the bottle.

Watching a Prabhupada Memories Video is good but it is not the same as having been there yourself, sorry.

And today there are people watching a Narayana Maharaj Memories Video thinking they have a personal connection to him just because he is living (in some far away continent). And the ISKCON people are watching a Swami XYZ Memories video and they think they have a personal connection to that Swami (because he shows up for the annual Ratha Yatra). None of them have any more personal connection than anyone else.

Devotees are certainly watching Srila Narayana Maharaja's videos on Purebhaktitv.com but most of them also make the endeavor to go to his programs when he comes to their continent and sometimes go to Vraja Mandala parikrama etc. Some have long time close association with him and some are new and have less association. How else could it be? But his followers are trying to get his association by pleasing him and there is no doubt of this. Sometimes senior devotees can give their opinion if a devotees service is pleasing to the guru. But if one really wants to know first hand, there is always the possibility of making a personal connection if one really is desiring such a thing. Another thing is that he is always answering questions in his classes about current controversies like this one and others, so the answers are there. We don't have to go into the archives and find out, is an event that happened 38 years ago is similiar to something happening right now amongst the devotees? we can ask and find out for sure. Again we are not saying that the books, and instructions of Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada are not valuable for the current generation. They are like jewels, but as Srila Narayana Maharaja says, "you must have the key to unlock them". The key is real sadhu sanga.

"So if you read different scriptures, you will be bewildered…But there is adjustment. If you go to the authorized person, he can adjust. But you cannot see. You see, you'll see contradiction. So srutayo vibhinnah. Therefore they are considered different, but actually, they are not different. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.7 lecture, San Francisco, March 1, 1967)

"So Caitanya Mahaprabhu says the medium is sastra, and direction is the guru. Sastra also we cannot understand any book, what to speak of the scripture. Sometimes we find contradiction in the scripture. That is not contradiction; that is my poor fund of knowledge. I cannot understand; therefore assistance of guru, a spiritual master, is required." (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 20.353-354 Lecture, New York, December 26, 1966)

"Because the spiritual master is the representative of the Supreme Lord, his direction is directly the direction of the Supreme Lord. The spiritual master, saintly persons and scriptures direct in the same way. There is no contradiction in these three sources. All actions done under such direction are free from the reactions of pious and impious activities of this material world." (Bhagavad Gita As It Is 10.3, purport)

"One should taste the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam in the association of pure devotees, and one should associate with the devotees who are more advanced than oneself and who are endowed with a similar type of affection for the Lord." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 22.131)

If Prabhupada is no longer accessible as a spiritual master then why does one of the Iskcon gurus initiate on his behalf? I read some quotes that Bhakti Caru Swami apparently considers his disciples to be Prabhupada's disciples. I am not any kind of disciple of anyone but I do feel that Prabhupada arranged so that I would come across his books so I do feel that he is out there somewhere.

Srila B.V.Prabhupada is accessible as a spiritual master but is not personally present to initiate or give access to his vapuh. We are not saying that you cannot associate with him through his books. His books can certainly help you. But he cannot tell you when you are misunderstanding his books, or that your service is not pleasing him and for that you need the association of a higher class of Vaisnava(s), which means higher than yourself. Watching a Prabhupada Memories Video is good but it is not the same as having been there yourself, sorry.

WHEN WE FEEL SEPARATION FROM KRSNA OR THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, WE SHOULD JUST TRY TO REMEMBER THEIR WORDS OF INSTRUCTIONS, AND WE WILL NO LONGER FEEL THAT SEPARATION. SUCH ASSOCIATION WITH KRSNA AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER SHOULD BE ASSOCIATION BY VIBRATION, NOT PHYSICAL PRESENCE. THAT IS REAL ASSOCIATION.

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

That is not his meaning. If there is no milana, meeting, no actual separation will come. Do you understand? You have seen me, you have met me and heard from me many times. So if you will not see me, you may have feelings of separation. You have met your Prabhupada and so you have feelings of separation for him. If you had never met him, how would you feel separation?

We put so much stress on seeing, but when Krsna was present on this earth, so many people saw Him and did not realize that He is God; so what is the advantage of seeing? By seeing Krsna, we will not understand Him, but by listening carefully to His teachings, we can come to the platform of understanding. We can touch Krsna immediately by sound vibration; therefore we should give more stress to the sound vibration of Krsna and of the spiritual master--then we'll feel happy and won't feel separation.

75-11-04 Letter: Suci

You have rightly said that the best way to associate with the spiritual master is to follow his instructions. There are two ways of associating, by vani and by vapu. Vani means words and vapu means physical presence. PHYSICAL PRESENCE IS SOMETIMES APPRECIABLE AND SOMETIMES NOT. THEREFORE WE SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE VANI, NOT THE PHYSICAL PRESENCE, BECAUSE THE VANI CONTINUES TO EXIST ETERNALLY. Bhagavad-gita for example is the vani of Lord Krishna. Although Krishna was personally present 5,000 years ago and is no longer present physically from the materialistic viewpoint, still Bhagavad-gita continues. So you have correctly concluded.

Now the disciples of Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada cannot have the opportunity for his vapuh association, so they can remember him and learn from him about bhakti and associate with him through his books. The books will assuage their separation, while at other times they (the books) will trigger such pangs of separation from their beloved guru who they sincerely served and continue to serve. When they have difficulty understanding bhakti though his books they can go to persons who have assimilated these conceptions and now live them in their practical lives. As Swami B.R. Srihar Maharaja has said, books will help us when we do not have the opportunity for sadhu sanga. Of course even if we have sadhu sanga the books are very important in Kali Yuga because of our poor memories.