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These hardy pioneers travelled almost 2,500 miles to get diksa, their motto was "diksa or death!"

 

 

 

That's funny, I thought their motto was 'diksa or bust'.

Username: Svarupa

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No–one falls from Goloka, we only 'think' and 'dream' we fall

There is always free will, that’s up to them, but no, they never falldown from that exalted level but it is not impossible for them to fall down, any jiva-tattva can fall down. Prabhupada has told us this but has said they do not come to this dangerous material creation unless it's for lila or pastime

For real love to exist, there must be that choice to be with Krishna or with ones own self centred desires of grandeur. That ability to choose must be there otherwise the gopis and all the other inhabitants of Goloka and Vaikuntha are robots, androids or the Borg (assimilated into the Kingdom of God)

There must be freewill to express love, that means choices

if you count in the 'eternal present' of Goloka that has no past or future, meaning everything and every 'body' is already there, the full eternal position and potential of our tatastha or marginal position is ALWAYS in Goloka.

So if our full potential is already there in Goloka due to the infallible state of the ‘eternal present’, isn't it obvious it is from there we originate even though it is said we are from the position of tatastha. (Simple meaning to choose between the ocean and the land or Krishna and the mahat-tattva)

Do you understand what I am trying to say mataji?

Tatastha is not a place or realm within the universe, it is the natural state of the jiva, ultimately meaning 'having the ability to choose this side or that side, to stay in Goloka or enter the mahat tattva.

We are both correct but are seeing this from different perspectives.

In other words, because of the simultaneous one a different aspect of Lord Caitanya’s teachings, we are always in Goloka (because of the eternal present) and tatastha-sakti simultaneously.

Srila Prabhupada never gave that much emphasis on the word tatastha in his books and preferred to use the word marginal more often in his books, e.g the marginal living entity

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion (vibhinnamsa) is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

It is intense love due to separation. Therefore it is very common in this circumstance that one or even many of the gopis may pretend to be Krishna in order to remember Him and ease the pangs of separation for other gopis as well.

This kind of love felt in separation is the highest love because it is love expressed due to dominant missed association as Prabhupada’s Nectar of Devotion teaches.

The dreaded selfish sub-conscious fall down from Goloka, where the living entity is actually not only imitating Krishna but trying to be Krishna, IS due to envy.

How can this happen even in Goloka?

The answer is free will and the ability is choose. Without that choice, we would be mindless androids or slaves.

Choice allows us to FOREVER increase our love for Krishna in our unique individual way that makes us the marginal living entity we eternally are. Or if we choose, we can forget Krishna and the body we serve Krishna as and ‘do our own thing’ in the mahat-tattva (material creation)

In this way, unlike the gopis who most NEVER fall down, even though they have the free will to choose so if they desire, we have foolishly chosen to try and imitate Krishna in Goloka selfishly and not out of love as the gopis do. It is important to understand 90% of the inhabitants in Goloka and Vaikuntha never ever fall down because it is simply their choice to never ‘sub-consciously’ stop ‘thinking’ and ‘dreaming’ of serving Krishna and his dear pure devotees.

Therefore it is our selfish sub-conscious desires that make us unfit to remain aware of Goloka that expel us, that expel our awareness of who we really are from Goloka and the memory of our perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body .(who we really are eternally) becomes forgotten due to being lost in our mistaken dreams and thoughts

So only the awareness of who we are is expelled from Goloka and NOT our Spiritual svarupa body.

Therefore always remember that our vigraha, svarupa or nitya-siddha spiritual body can never fall down from Goloka, only our mistaken dreams, thoughts and desires do and take us (our awareness of reality) to the material creation where we can have a shot at being god.

This sub-conscious state of restricted awareness is known as the nitya-baddha-jiva or baddha-jiva that refers to the living entities inferior self or secondary self which is a sub-conscious extension of their full eternal bodily identity and potential in Goloka.

What is explained above is the correct understanding of the origin of the ‘jiva soul’ that is really understood by Krishna’s mercy and never by jnan (knowledge) on its own

Srila Prabhupada - ‘When the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’(Srimad-Bhagavatam<u1:p></u1:p>

4.28.54, purport)<u1:p></u1:p>

So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations. <u1:p></u1:p>

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Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? <u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada: Yes.<u1:p></u1:p>

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Paramahamsa: Fall down?<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles<u1:p></u1:p>

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Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - ‘‘When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here".

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - "We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are". <u1:p></u1:p>

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Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - "All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left". <u1:p></u1:p>

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Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - "Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarup dasa web site<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada - ‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully". (Srimad-Bhagavatam<u1:p></u1:p>

4.28.54, purport)<u1:p></u1:p>

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’(Srimad-Bhagavatam<u1:p></u1:p>

4.28.54, purport)<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) and eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha). Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada - "The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha).Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54,purport)<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada - "Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned (baddha-jiva), there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease".

The Spiritual Sky or its other words 'the Brahmajyoti' or the Brahman, is full of Spiritual Vaikuntha planets and eternally embodied nitya-siddhas (which is ALL of us)

However, within that same Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, is the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu, Who provides a 'mahat tattva' or material body to all nitya-baddha-jivas that enter His temporary material creation after they have sub-consciously extended, projected and withdrawn themselves from their their nitya-siddha body in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Only within the mahat-tattva can the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti (impersonal Brahman) exist.

Technically, the entire mahat-tattva is impersonal.

One can only enter it as a bodiless conscious spark that ORIGINATES from Goloka-Vrndavana. This secondary sub-conscious state (nitya-baddha) is projected and originates from ones real bodily form (nitya-siddha) in Goloka.

So it is very clear here that all living entities originate from Goloka.

The nitya-baddha-jiva is actually a formless individual until Maha Vishnu provides such ‘consciousness’ with a bodily vessel. The Mayavadis or impersonalists cannot understand this.

All they see is the mahat tattva and the formless spark of conscious. This is due to denying the fact there is a Goloka, which is the origin of ALL living entities and their beginingless and endless nitya-siddha body

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…(In Vaikuntha) so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with (This biological body or vessel and the material creation). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

We do not evolve in 'consciousness' to the Krsnaloka realm, with the foolish idea we have never been to Krsnaloka. Srila Prabhupada also clearly rejected that idea as impersonal because we are actually already there in Krsnaloka and ALWAYS have been.

How is that possible??

It is a fact that we are ALL ALREADY in Krsnaloka in our FULL eternal Krsna Conscious state as our nitya-siddha-svarupa body. However, presently that 'AWARENESS' is covered by our selfish non-Krsna conscious desires. We therefore cannot see and act in that fully eternally developed consciousness of who WE really are because of our choice and free will to forget Krsna (which means we also forget the body we serve Krsna as).

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

This means there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity because that body already eternally exists, we simply have to regain the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain the 'awareness 'of who we really are.

We do not grow consciously out of a plain sheet of dormant consciousness and evolve to reach Krsnaloka, but rather, are always are in the process of regaining or re-establishing who we are originally.

In the material creation, we are simply in the process of recovering who we really are

Even if we did fall out of the impersonal Brahmajyoti, then long, long, long before that we were ALL in Krsnaloka in full 'awareness' of our reall bodily nitya-siddha identity.

Srila Prabhupada – "When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud .. You are ever-liberated”

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha Krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi". (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

A devotee -"Original spiritual form in Vaikuntha" means a form that exists in the "present moment". (You should be happy that we have achieved a meeting of the minds on this point.) But does it mean a form, which we had in the past, then lost and will regain - although we will regain a form that always exists in the "present moment".

Answer – Nothing is lost or gained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are. Everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangeable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, Ananda, VIGRAHA.

In this way, without argument, we should accept Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion and understand without any doubts, that we ALL came down from Goloka long, long, long ago, not as our nitya-siddha-svarupa body, but as a dreaming projection known as the living entities nitya-baddha consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness." Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

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Ed, you are a:

 

Everyone knows that andy108 is correct and that now all languages will stay the same. Therefore in 9,967 years people in the good old U.S. of A. and all English speaking, God fearing countries, will still be reading the original unchanged versions of Srila Prabhupada's books.

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja

Experiencing a Higher Taste

(A Darsana)

June, 1992: Vrndavana, India

[Question:] Since we spirit souls haven't fallen from Krsna's pastimes in Goloka Vrndavana, why do the scriptures say we ‘revive' our relationship with Krsna, or that we have ‘forgotten' that relationship? Since we have never experienced it, what is the question of ‘reviving' or ‘forgetting' it? *[see endnote 1]

[srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] We can understand by the following verse:

krsna bhuli' sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha

ataeva maya tare deya samsara-duhkha

(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 20.117)

["Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy maya gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence."]

The answer has been given in the word anadi. Anadi means ‘no adi', or ‘no beginning'. The conditioned jiva has never met Krsna.

[Question:] Why is the word ‘forgotten' used so often?

[srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] There is no other word. This word and other words like it have been used for beginners, for those who have no understanding of spiritual consciousness (paramartha).

Someone may say, "The sun is shining on the branches of this tree." Why has this been said? If the sun was actually on the branch, the tree would turn to ashes in less than a moment.

It is the same situation for verses that use words like ‘forget' and ‘revive'. It is certain that if one is able to see Krsna, he will never fall in the trap of maya. It would not be possible for him to fall. If a true sadhaka does not fall in the trap of maya, then what to speak of a siddha - a perfect, liberated soul who is always tasting Sri Krsna's personal service?

 

There is no illusory maya in Goloka Vrndavana. If a jiva is there, where there is no illusory maya, how will that jiva forget Krsna? Bhagavad-gita states:

visaya vinivartante

niraharasya dehinah

rasa-varjam raso 'py asya

param drstva nivartate

(Bhagavad-gita 2.59)

["The embodied soul may be artificially restricted from sense enjoyment by withdrawing the senses from their objects, but his taste for sense objects remains. However, one who experiences a higher taste is fixed in consciousness. A devotee of the Lord automatically refrains because of superior taste."]

If one sees a beautiful object, but then he sees something he considers more beautiful, he will be attracted to that more beautiful thing. If there is a taste for certain objects, but then a higher taste comes, that lower taste will automatically disappear. Pure Gaudiya Vaisnavas, those who follow in the footsteps of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, have that higher taste. Therefore they do not require to labor in order to control the mind - not even slightly. Rather, they easily control it by always engaging it in hearing hari-katha, chanting, and remembering Sri Krsna.

Rasa-varjam raso 'py asya, param drstva nivartate. That spiritual rasa (the mellow taste in one's relationship with Krsna) is more tasteful than this worldly rasa (the taste in any mundane relationship). The material mind is made of matter, so it always engages in worldly rasa. However, if it experiences a more beautiful taste - Sri Krsna - then it will have no time to come here to this world.

Thus, even without the devotee's conscious desire to control the mind, it will be automatically controlled by giving it more interesting objects and topics of thought. The material world is somewhat beautiful, but Lord Krsna and the gopis are more beautiful, and Goloka Vrndavana is also more beautiful.

In this world there are so many rasas, but they are like poison. At the time of tasting them, they seem sweet, but the fruit is the opposite. When men and women mix together, their relationship seems sweet at the beginning but then it turns sour. A mango is very tasteful, but if I eat more than I can digest, that mango will act like poison. I like ghee, but if I take more ghee than I can digest, it acts like poison. Everything in this world is like this.

So if one can engage his mind always, in all ways, in Krsna, that mind will automatically be controlled.

[*ENDNOTE 1:

Devotee (1): ...if we've never been with Krsna, if we've never been in Krsnaloka, then how is it that we start remembering His pastimes and His form?

Prabhupada: You remember Krsna's pastimes by hearing Srimad-Bhagavatam. You can hear Krsna's pastimes. That you can remember.

Devotee (1): But how can we remember if we've never known them before?

Prabhupada: How you can remember?

Devotee (1): If we haven't known it.

Prabhupada: You can know it by hearing from Srimad-Bhagavatam. Why we are citing so many scriptures, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita? Just to remember.]

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Falldown of the Jiva - as explained by His Holiness Suhotra Swami Maharaja, retold by Chand

 

 

How does the jiva fall down?

 

In the spiritual world, jivas initially develop a sense of lack. The jiva feels that it is inferior to Krishna and feels the lack of being the Enjoyer. The jiva, then develops envy for the position of Krishna. This envy causes the falldown of the jiva to the material world. Nevertheless, this is not a flare-up of envy or a swelling up of negative emotions. This is a very informed and conscious choice on part of the jiva - a choice to enjoy without Krishna.

 

Jivas are similar to Krsihna in quality, not quantity. Krishna feels love, anger, has a tendency to cheat and so on... so does the jiva. However Krishna is unlimited and the jova or the spirit soul is limited. Krishna is independent; so is the jiva. However, Krishna's independence is unlimited while that of the jiva is very small. Krishna gives this minute independence to the jiva. Krishna does not want service or love by choice. Jivas always have the freedom to choose between loving or not loving Krishna. Unfortunatley, some envious jivas in the spiritual world, decide to become independant from Krishna. Krishna loves it when His devotees or jivas surrunder to Him volunturality. This is considered the "jewel-like quality" of the jiva - the voluntary surrunder. Jivas who decide to enjoy independantly, fall down to one of the material universes.

 

Although seeking independence, the fallen jiva is still highly qualified and therefore gets the position of Brahma. Brahma is a position, and not a person. Brahma is the universal engineer. Thus the jiva gets the position of Brahma. Brahma is still an enlightened, liberated entity, still he has a tendency to think that he is independent from Krishna. In Brahmaloka and other similar higher level planets like Tapoloka, Jnanaloka etc, there is absolutely no physical desire. These planets constitute the highest realms in the material world. These worlds are very much into mental speculation, philosophy etc. Women in these worlds are devoted to Krishna and they dance for the pleasure of the Krishna deity that Brahma worships. The jiva does the job of Brahma for a lifetime of Brahma, which is extremely long according to the calculation of human beings. After that when it is time for universal devastation, the jiva leaves the Brahma body and goes back to Vishu. Some jivas, not all, become attached to the position of Brahma. Some fortunate jivas go back to Vaikuntha. But those who get attached to the position of Brahma, come back to Brahmaloka. The second instance is the "real falldown" of the jiva, when he falls down due to material attachment.

 

Jivas who come for the second time, develop further attachment to the material world. On developing physical desire, they fall further down to lower planetary systems like earth. Thus starts the transmigration of the spirit soul through 84 lakhs of species, through birth and death in the cycle of life. Here jivas suffer and enjoy their karma. Some jivas on acquiring enough good karma go to higer planets of sense gratification like the planet of Moon and other heavenly planets. In the heavenly planets, jivas are highly conscious and knowledgeable. They know that they are fallen, they know that Krishna is the Lord and Master, they know that they are conditioned souls, who should ideally go back to Vaikuntha. However, the heavenly planets are places full of sense gratification in all possible forms - women, wine, music, dance, material opulence etc etc. In the heavenly planets, there is provision for jivas to satisfy their physical desires in a much better way than earth. Thus jivas, getting attached to lust, remain bound to this material world. When their good karma is finished these souls come down from the heavenly planets to earth in the form of rain. Thus they become herbs and enter the food chain. It enters the body of human beings in the form of food and later on comes out in the form of a newborn baby. Thus the cycle of birth and death goes on and on....

 

 

 

 

 

The Spiritual Sky or it's other word 'the Brahmajyoti' is full of Spiritual Vaikuntha planets howver, within that same Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, is the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu.

 

Only on the IN the mahat-tattva can the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti exist.

 

Technically, the entire mahat-tattva is impersonal.

 

One can only enter it as a bodiless consciousness after the living entity sub-consciously leaves THRIR REAL BODY in Goloka and is projected from their that bodily form in Goloka tp their mistaken non-Krishna conscious DREAMS

 

The nitya-baddha-jiva is actually a formless individual until Maha Vishnu provides such ‘consciousness’ a bodily vessel.

 

The Mayavadis or impersonalists cannot understand this. All they see is the mahat tattva amd the formles spark of conscious. This is due to denying the fact THAT there is Goloka and that perpetual IS the origin of ALL nitya-siddha or marginal living entities - This is called PERSONALISM

 

I have intensly searched Prabhupada's Books, letters, lectures and morning walks and found statements others were not aware of about how we came down from Vaikuntha, not as our Spiritual body, but rather as a sub-conscious projection called the baddha-jiva.

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. From a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

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Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

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Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1966

 

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Question: Why did the nitya baddha cross the tatastha road?

 

Answers:

Because he wanted to get to the other side.

He's already at the other side of the road.

There is no road, the nitya baddha is the road.

He's dreaming that he's on the other side of road.

He's dreaming that he's on this side of the road.

He's dreaming that there is a road.

He's dreaming that there is no road

He's daydreaming that he has nothing to do except post on this

stupid website.

Gaura Bhakti Sadguru Gaurahari das

 

 

 

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Gaura Bhakti Sad Guru,Gaurahari das shares easy to understand deep clear teachings about how to enter, maintain and progress on the path of devotion.

 

http://teachingsofgaurahari...

Name: Gaurahari das

Age: 55

For over thirty five years I have been preparing,learning, experiencing and teaching about this crest jewel of spiritual paths called Bhakti Yoga. By the extraordinary grace of my eternal SadGuru and God they have authorized me to assist others make their transition and practical ascension to the divine level of experience. This cuts one free for good from the cylce of birth and death by bestowing upon the soul the boon of confidential service to Supreme Eternal Truth. This is even a deeper grace than that of liberation or salvation .

 

City: Mayapura

Hometown: Mayapura

Country: India

Interests and Hobbies: Full time Bhakti Yoga practice, writing, speaking, singing, traveling, teaching, learning

Books: Srimad bhgavatam, Caitanya Bhagavata, Caitanya Caritamrita and other Ghakti literature.

Website: http://teachingsofgauraharidas.ning.com/

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</dt><dt></dt><dt>Gaurahari das (gaura99)</dt><dd>55, Male

IN</dd></dl> <dl><dt>Hometown:</dt><dd>Mayapura</dd></dl> <dl><dt>My Spiritual Name</dt><dd>Gaurahari das</dd></dl> <dl><dt>Relationship Status:</dt><dd>Single</dd></dl> <dl><dt>About Me:</dt><dd>I have been engaged in cultivating Krishna Consciousness for twenty eight years. I have also investigated and practiced to a point other spiritual paths and disciplines, as well as engaged in new age therapies and human potential group processes. All this together has evolved into my own personal style of serving Srila Prabhupada and Gauranga on the basis of natural loving enthusiasm and empowerment through Srila Prabhupada's personal order. I teach, share counsel others informally and in a relaxed mood.

11 years ago when a devotee, spontaneously approached me to act as her guide to help develop her relationship with Gauranga, I agreed only after first taking her to see some other prominent Gurus in Vrndavan. I was still hesitant to take on such a responsibility when AC Bhaktividanta Srila Prabhupada came to me in a lucid dream. He sat down right next to me and point blank ordered me to teach and speak about the glories of Gauranga, bhakti yoga and help the devotees who would come to me. On the strength of his order and blessing I began doing this. Right now I am in Arambol, Goa . We hold daily a informal class, kirtan and retreats. The assembled seekers of a genuine loving relationship with Srila Prabhupada and Sri Krishna Caitanya Mahaprabhu are all welcome to examine the fruits in the form of these video classes posted here or on youtube to see and hear for themselves if the fruit in the way I am serving Guru and Gauranga is good( spiritually enlivening )or not. Everyone can Judge for themselves if the blessing of Srila Prabhupada is here or not and don’t have to artificially believe anything blindly.

So to understand my particular mood, I have an unusual background in Krishna Consciousness and do not fit any mold that many standardized devotees may have difficulty to understand. In 1980 I received Srila Prabhupada’s book from a devotee in California. I read one paragraph and immediately I felt a spiritual love for Srila Prabhupada arise similar to what I had experienced years ago with Jesus when I read the book of John of the New Testament. I knew immediately from within my heart that he was authorized representative and had a relationship with God Just like my Lord Jesus did. Immediately I went to the local Laguna Beach temple and surrendered my money, car, and all possessions to serve Srila Prabhupada’s mission.

The very first day I joined the temple I examined both the Nectar of devotion and Caitanya Caritamrita and felt an instantaneous love and affinity for both these books and the devotees it described in them. I knew immediately that my heart, life, energy belonged to them and serving their personal mission. I spent five years living in the temple but for me I was not very happy there. The temperament and mood of standard ISKCON devotee was naturally different than mine. Most were interested in following ridged rules, regulations, pujas, etc. I almost got kicked out of the temple because I could not leave relishing Srila Prabhupada’s Srimad Bhagavatam even during the morning program. I did not like engaging in any mechanical program against my natural feelings and I still don’t. In a nutshell I am attracted to Krishna Consciousness only because I genuinely love Srila Prabhupada and I love Gauranga lila with all my heart, soul and passion. That’s the only reason I came to Krishna and the only reason I stay with Krishna Conciousness.

I left Krishna Consciousness many times only due to the advice of other devotees and even prominent leaders to follow a way that was not appropriate for my personal spiritual development. Their advice had a opposite effect . Instead of drawing me closer it repelled away from Krishna. In one way I had many difficulties in having confidence in what really worked for me in Krishna Consciousness because so many practicing devotees and leaders and gurus included have other opinions and were quick to criticse me for what I was doing, especially when I started teaching and helping devotees. Taking a humble position for a time I stepped down from teaching due to this extreme external pressure. I checked out being a part of some other devotee sangas to see if what they were saying was true that they had something better or higher teaching for me than what I was involved in already. I can say now from a mature perspective that I am just so happy to serve Srila Prabhupada’s personal order no matter what any devotee or even Vaisnava leaders have to say about it. They can love what I am doing or they can criticize it also- either way I am still so happy and confident in my life to serve the order that Srila Prabhupada personally gave me to speak about the beauty and sweetness of Gauranga, and the immense value of love for Gauranga and His associates. I know now the real blessings of Srila Prabhupada are with me and have full confidence to just carry out his order to me. His order is my one pointed life and soul. Wow! what a long journey to discover this simple truth but its sure has been worth all the trouble!

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Hironymous Beggar, who recently came out of internet retirement has just posted his 2,000th post (see above post). In a recent interview Beggar told us, "I just wanted to come out of retirement and get my 2000th post, at least". The question is: Is Beggar headed to the Audarya Fellowship, Spiritual Discussions, Hall of Fame or Hall of Shame?

 

Sridhara Maharaja believes in physical diksa as a necessary condition for advancement. That is a religious requirement quite in keeping with traditional Hinduism - Churchianity Indian style. I don't buy the 'social consciousness' vs 'God consciousness' idea therefore. Physical diksa imposes an authoritarian hierachy which feeds on a collective consciousness.

 

 

If Srila Prabhupada didn't believe in diksa, IOW giving the diksa mantras to his disciples (the different lines of Gayatri) then why did he perform this function? It is Srila Sridhar Maharaja who said that the Gayatri "mantra retires at liberation" and that the Mahamantra is eternal and continues even after liberation. In recent years this has been misunderstood by some so that they disparage the diksa process but was not the intention of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. If cbrahma wants to have an opinion these substantive and historical topics then he needs to the research and not just shoot from the hip. Of course the kind of research I mean in this context would require one to step back to some kind of neutral and dispassionate postion.

One should not pose as if they know everything when they really don't.

BTW, I certainly don't know everything and am learning a little bit every day.

The amazing thing about internet forums is that posters are not really held accountable for accuracy or the impact of what they essentially publish.

 

It's obvious where your bias lies. You are more interested in following material religious protocol than the extoling the Truth. You insist on these formalities but it's acceptable to attack Prabhupada's siddhanta. How trite!

 

 

Of course I can provide evidence. I choose not to become embroiled in a perennial controversy in which ample evidence has been provided over and over again. You would look it up if you weren't a guru-worshipper.

Here is the most critical thing that Srila Prabhupada ever wrote about Srila Sridhar Maharaja:

 

 

 

 

I rest my case, Srila Prabhupada always referred to sannyasis as "Maharaja". Are you too proud to ever admit that you are sometimes wrong about certain facts? I hope not. Let's see. (Don't claim that I cannot prove "always". You know what I mean)

 

 

You would look it up if you weren't a guru-worshipper.

That's a praise disguised as a criticism:

(1)

sri-guru-carana-padma, kevala-bhakati-sadma,

bando mui savadhana mate

jahara prasade bhai, e bhava toriya jai,

krsna-prapti hoy jaha ha'te

(2)

guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya,

ar na koriho mane asa

sri-guru-carane-rati, ei se uttama-gati,

je prasade pure sarva asa

(3)

cakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei

divya-jnan hrde prokasito

prema-bhakti jaha hoite, avidya vinasa jate,

vede gay jahara carito

(4)

sri-guru karuna-sindhu, adhama janara bandhu

lokanath lokera jivana

(srila prabhupada lokera jivana!)

ha ha prabhu kora doya, deho more pada chaya

ebe jasa ghusuk tribhuvana

(prabhupada patita pavana!)

(1) The lotus feet of the spiritual master are the abode of pure devotional service. I bow down to those lotus feet with great care and attention. My dear brother (my dear mind)! It is through the grace of the spiritual master that we cross over this material existence and obtain Krsna.

(2) Make the teachings from the lotus mouth of the spiritual master one with your heart, and do not desire anything else. Attachment to the lotus feet of the spiritual master is the best means of spiritual advancement. By his mercy all desires for spiritual perfection are fulfilled.

(3) He who has given me the gift of transcendental vision is my lord, birth after birth. By his mercy divine knowledge is revealed within the heart, bestowing prema-bhakti and destroying ignorance. The Vedic scriptures sing of his character.

(4) O spiritual master, ocean of mercy, and friend of the fallen souls, you are the teacher of everyone and the life of all people. O master! Be merciful unto me, and give me the shade of your lotus feet. May your glories now be proclaimed throughout the three worlds.

Eulogy of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

(The Harmonist, Dec. 1931, vol. XXIX No. 6)

It is not empiric wisdom that is the object of quest of the devotee. Those who read the scriptures for gathering empiric wisdom will be pursuing the wild goose chase... The mutual admiration society of dupes does not escape, by the mere weight of their number, the misfortunes due to the deliberate pursuit of the wrong course in accordance with the suggestions of our lower selves... Thakura Bhaktivinoda is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the powers of the pure devotee of Godhead.

His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee. If his words are listened from the lips of a non-devotee they will certainly deceive. If his works are studied in the light of one's own worldly experience their meaning will refuse to disclose itself to such readers. His works belong to the class of the eternal revealed literature of the world and must be approached for their right understanding through their exposition by the pure devotee. If no help from the pure devotee is sought, the works of Thakura Bhaktivinoda will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study.

The writings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda are valuable because they demolish all empiric objections against accepting the only method of approaching the Absolute in the right way. They cannot and were never intended to give access to the Absolute without help from the pure devotee of Krishna. They direct the sincere enquirer of the truth, as all the revealed scriptures do, to the pure devotee of Krishna to learn about Him by submitting to listen with an open mind to the transcendental sound appearing on his lips. Before we open any of the books penned by Thakura Bhaktivinoda, we should do well to reflect a little on the attitude which serves as the indispensable prerequisite to approach its study. It is by neglecting to remember this fundamental principle that the empiric pedants find themselves so hopelessly puzzled in their vain endeavor to reconcile the statements of the different texts of the scriptures. The same difficulty is already in process of overtaking many of the so-called followers of Thakura Bhaktivinoda and for the same reason...

Those who want to understand the contents of the volumes penned by the piecemeal acquisitive method applicable to deluding knowledge available to the mind on the mundane plane, are bound to be self-deceived. Those who are sincere seekers of the truth are alone eligible to find Him, in and through the proper method of His quest.

In order to be put on the track of the Absolute, listening to the words of the pure devotee is absolutely necessary. The spoken word of the Absolute is the Absolute. It is only the Absolute Who can give Himself away to the constituents of His power. The Absolute appears to the listening ear of the conditioned soul in the form of the name on the lips of the sadhu. This is the key to the whole position. The words of Thakura Bhaktivinode direct the empiric pedant to discard his wrong method and inclination on the threshold of the real quest of the Absolute. If the pedant still chooses to carry his errors into the realm of the Absolute Truth he only marches by the deceptive by-path into the regions of darker ignorance by his arrogant study of the scriptures. The method offered by Thakura Bhaktivinoda is identical with the object of the quest. The method is not really grasped except by the grace of the pure devotee. The arguments, indeed, are these. But they can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the word from the living source of the Truth who is no other than the pure devotee of Krishna, the concrete Personal Absolute.

 

Isn't that 'blind and cultic'?

If you consider the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sadacara to be 'blind and cultic' that is your perogative.

 

I've read passages where Prabhupada refers to these 'sanayasis' simply by their last name. Especially in the places where he describes how offensive they were to him and his guru maharaj.

You obviously have a fertile imagination. If this was true then you would provide evidence, but you cannot.

 

One cannot decide there is no living representative. That is trying to assert a 'not exists' which barring a logical impossibility is impossible to prove.

However Sridhara and Nararayan's teachings have not had the same effect on me as Prabhupada's.

Yes, we are all individuals but you can at least follow the Vaisnava sadacara and refer to sannyasis, especially exalted ones with the term, "Maharaja" appended to the end of their name as did Srila Prabhupada.

 

Everything with Srila Prabhupada 'clicks', not to mention the correspondence in my own heart with Caitya guru. He is self-effulgent.

could equally be said,

 

Everything with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada 'clicks', not to mention the correspondence in my own heart with Caitya guru. He is self-effulgent.

or

 

Everything with Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura 'clicks', not to mention the correspondence in my own heart with Caitya guru. He is self-effulgent.

Why not? And there is no living, breathing representative of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya today? Why not? Just because Owls do not see the Sun, does it mean that the Sun does not exist? And what is self effulgent, and what does Caitanya Caritamrta say about this?

 

So true. Which explains your persistence beyond reason especially in taking the part of somebody who attacks Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas. Very rational indeed.

 

The Pot calling the kettle, black?

 

There is a world of difference between enthusiastic proselytizing and starting a smear campaign against groups.

Beggar's other than Prabhupada quotes seem to be about 2/3 Sridhar Maharaja and 1/3 Narayana Maharaja. Other than that he also frequently quotes Tripurari Maharaja, Narasimha Maharaja and ironically Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaja of the central Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math. (I remember him posting those pictures of Govinda Maharaja at the Siva temple at his math).

 

 

... I still tend to suffer from attention deficit disorder when reading anything but Prabhupada so I don't know how that is gonna work for me.

Your not the only one, but we need to read what others write or quote in a thorough way if we are going to have a serious opinion about it.

 

P.S. From an objective viewpoint you have to wonder why those who quote Srila B.V. Swami Prabhupada and some of his criticism of his godbrothers are engaging in proselytizing and a smear campaign again Srila Prabhupada's gurubhai (godbrothers) and their disciples are not also guilty of some kind of "smear campaign". Of course I am thinking about that famous letter to Rupanuga about Sridhar Maharaja.

Realist31, Vaisnavas do not believe that they are God. Your responses are mostly emotional and these emotions are clouding your ability to process information.

You are mixing up too many thoughts because of this, so it makes it almost impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you. Some people get frustrated with you and call you a "crazy Hindu". But you really need to try to go to a positon of some neutrality and think about what others have been writing on this thread.

Sripada Tripurari Maharaja,

...in the Bhagavata,

although other avataras have been mentioned along with a description of Their characteristics, Krsna's characteristics have not been mentioned. Yet if anyone insists that His characteristics have been described earlier, they can only be referring to the word bhagavan (rama-krsnav iti bhuvo bhagavan aharad bharam [sB 1.3.23]), which is not used when describing any of the other incarnations. In the paribhasa-sutra (SB 1.3.23), the characteristic of Krsna as svayam bhagavan is described, reiterating with emphasis what has been cited earlier (SB 1.3.23), ... Furthermore, the fact that this description has been left until the end of the description of the incarnations serves to emphasize the conclusion that Krsna alone is svayam bhagavan, and for this reason it has been placed there. As per the rules of literary composition, facts meant to be emphasized should be placed at the end of the composition. The fact that Krsna is mentioned earlier is not sufficient reason to conclude that this verse is not also ultimately about Him. Even if the grammar is somewhat awkward, which we are not willing to concede to, the author of the Bhagavata, Vyasadeva, has compensated for that in his statement yasmin prat-slokam abaddhavaty api. Here abaddhavaty means irregularity in composition. Vyasadeva has said that in such literature even if there is any irregularity in composition, it should not be allowed to get in the way of the urgency of the message. The urgent message of the Bhagavata is that Krsna is the ultimate expression of Godhead, the reservoir of all transcendenal loving exchange (rasa). There are ten subjects discussed in the Bhagavata. The first nine are asrita, dependents requiring shelter, and the tenth is the asraya, the object providing shelter. Among the asrita is isanukatha, discussion of the incarnations of Godhead. The asraya, however, is their source and shelter, svayam bhagavan Sri Krsna. No one can argue that the Bhagavata does not reach its apex in the discussion of Krsna-lila. This discussion constitutes the entire Tenth Canto, which is almost three times longer than any other canto. Krsna and his family members are also the exclusive subject of the Eleventh Canto. Together these two cantos make up more than half of the entire Bhagavata. Why so much attention to Krsna? Because Krsna is the asraya-tattva, the summum bonum of the Bhagavata, and thus even Narayana is his plenary portion. Sridhara Svami has stated this in his commentary on the Bhagavata:

 

 

dasame dasamam laksyam

asritasraya-vigraham

sri-krsnakhyam param dhama

jagad-dhama namami tat

"The Tenth Canto of the Bhagavata reveals the tenth subject, who is the shelter of all. He is known as Sri Krsna, and he is the ultimate source of all the worlds. Let me offer my obeisances unto him."

 

 

 

 

 

Gosh. That's the one trick pony that has enabled the corruption in ISKCON to go on for so long. Calling a murderer a murderer is not fault finding. Prabhupada always spoke the truth however unpalatable. The obsession is the cover up. He attacked bogus gurus and bogus teachers all the time. Do you need examples?

 

I don't dispute that calling a thief a thief is proper and not faultfinding in it's proper context. This means that if one discovers a thief in the act of thievery then one may alert others so that they may not themselves be victimized. But this does not mean that one has license to obsess about the faults of thieves or prostitutes as ones principle focus or occupation. Of course there is the story of the brahmana and the prostitute:

 

Once, in a peaceful village, there lived a scholarly and devotional brahmana Opposite his home, there lived a prostitute.

As a daily observance, the brahmana would sit in his doorway and recite the Gita. Meanwhile, across the street, the prostitute would tend to her business.

As the years passed, the brahmana grew ever more disturbed by the prostitute. “Just see how lowly she is.” he would think to himself and continue with his recitation.

It so happened that both the brahmana and the prostitute died at the same time. To the brahmana’s surprise, the Vishnuduttas (the Lord of Heaven’s messengers) came to deliver the prostitute while the Yamadutas (the Lord of Death’s messengers) came for him. “What is this?” he protested. “There must be some mistake!”

The Visnudutas replied, “My dear brahmana, there is no mistake. While you were busy meditating on the lowly activities of the prostitute, she listened to you recite the Gita and prayed that she could one day elevate herself to your position. In this way the prostitute achieved liberation while you only degraded yourself.”

 

'Our' sincerity? The GBC's sincerity is what is at issue. Your evasions are becoming tedious. I really don't want to discuss this anymore.

 

I don't believe that any bonafide guru/sadhu will give anyone a license for obsessive faultfinding despite what the GBC, the KGB or the CIA has done.

 

 

Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession.

(Iso 12)

 

The teachings of "the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession" is to give up faultfinding not embrace it. Krsna Consciousness is not a brand of politics.

 

Isopanisad 12

They ignore the Vedic injunction acaryopasana--"One must worship the acarya"--and Krsna's statement in the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) evam parampara-praptam, "This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession." Instead, to mislead the people in general they themselves become so-called acaryas, but they do not even follow the principles of the acaryas.

Of course if a devotee feigns being an acarya and does not follow the principles of the acaryas it is a great distubance in devotional society. But this is mostly about those who become teachers of spirituality without accepting a bonafide guru in the line of disciplic succession themselves. To become a bonafide teacher one must become a bonafide student. The student must also not, "ignore the Vedic injunction acaryopasana--"One must worship the acarya"--and Krsna's statement in the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) evam parampara-praptam, "This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession." The perfect student becomes an acarya but our position at present is to become at least a neophyte and hopefully a madhyama student. As Srila Prabhupada once told, "first save yourself then you can save others." Our first concern is to become bonafide disciples of a bonafide guru. Everything depends on our own sincerity.

 

One must always be alert to the corruption of false prestige especially where it concerns bogus gurus. They are the most evil because they deliberately pervert the spiritual Truth.

 

Where in the sastras or the teachings any guru does it say,"One must always be alert to the corruption of false prestige especially where it concerns bogus gurus?" Obviously a sincere, aspiring sadhaka should search for a real guru and avoid bogus gurus. But in every spiritual process, all yogas, one must be alert to the corruption of false prestige especially where it concerns themselves. We are told to put our hand on heart each night before we take rest and think if we have made advancement that day by pleasing guru and Krsna. The Bhagavad Gita talks about "the introspective sage". Introspective means inward looking not outward looking towards the environment. It sounds like you are obsessed with blaming the environment for whatever reason. As conditioned souls we all have this tendency. But if what you write is an insight into your mentality, which it must be, then you are really missing the point of spiritual life. Who ever originally came to The Krsna Consciousness Movement to obsess about the faults of others, even if they are the GBC? The trade secret is that we become what we criticize for that is the natural law of the mental plane. Didn't your mother tell you, "if you can't say anything good about someone, don't say anything at all?" That's the general rule. Guess what? Your mother was right.