D B Cooper Jr

The way it is looking in America it isn't going to take any sort of Iranian invasion or nuclear strike to bring America to its knees. The massive immigration looks like it is going to be the end of America as people know it. Wether the new America will be better than the old America remains to be seen but it looks more and more like the new America is going to be a massive social welfare state.

Haribol. You said:

 

Who are you that you let me 'speak for too long'? So what if I'm a zionist - you don't understand what that even is oh and - Your bigotry is too obvious?

 

<!-- / message -->I am sorry for sounding so puffed up, and Im not trying to shut you up at all. What I meant is that your viewpoints have largely gone unchallenged, and I am merely challenging. But the way I put it was wrong, wrong, wrong, and I apologize heartily.

 

Also, I am not a bigot. The problem is that anyone who opposes Israel (the nation) is immediately accused of bigotry asnd anti semitism. This is the bigotry of the zionist, actually, shutting off all debate on the issues and assuming the victim pose. I challenged you because you blew off the obvious false news report as if it didnt matter, yet before exposure of the lie, you were making quite a statement with that lie. This is also a convenient tool of the neocons. Their leader has been exposed as one who only lies every time he moves his this murderous lips, yet they say his lies dont matter because we got rid of the evil saddam. Next year, if the dems self-destruct (which I fully expect, BTW) and fail to win both the house and the senate, then this fascist will nuke Iran, Iran will destroy the middle east, China and russia will get into the act, and then we will have nothing at all to talk about. In fact, if you are, indeed, a scholar (which I believe you are to an extent, albeit a biased one), you will know that in the end, on the battlefield, all the participants will be laid so low (loss of gravity, destruction of magnetic shield) that they will forget why they are engaged in battle. This is the prophecy, not only in conventional sources, but in rare sources such as the kebra and abyssinian writings, the indigenous prophecy of the indigenous tribesfolk throughout the world, etc.

 

Anyway, there is no justice, there is no peace, and this is certainly the age for it, which we probably agree on. We witness, but lets not get all wrapped up in that we participate. I wont, even though I firmly believe that fascists have usurped Amerikkka<!-- sig -->. I am a historian, and I know that the only way fascists relinquish power is to have a crushing military defeat at the hands of their enemy. This means Amerikkka is laid low, seven cities gone, and the suffering too great for the rest of us to bear. Thats why I have preached that we learn to give what we have been given, up to the full extent of what we have recieved, understood, and applied to our own lives. We wont have a center to consult, we may be the only vaisnava within hundreds of mad max wasteland miles. We may have to initiate, we may have to be diksa guru. What options exist in the survival camp where everyone has particulate bleeding thru their forms.

 

Please dont cheerlead this outcome. Kali Yuga is not the age for cheerleading political sides. Ill leave for now, but will reprint here Srila Prabhupadas points on political movement here in this age.

 

Hare Krsna, again, I apologize for being so blunt, ys, mahaksadasa

Definetly a lot of truth to what you just said Mahak in my opinion. I tried all those ascending paths and all they do is get you frustrated then once you get thouroughly frustrated then a copy of Bhagavad Gita practically falls right into your lap.

There are no gaps. Veda Vyasa is still here, narada Muni did not die on another planet with his vina, and the last time I looked, Lord Brahma is still a young 40 + (in his years). Dont worry about the gaps because if one tries to understand the cosmology of all things, they wil give up, like einstein, and say "all glories to God". If Vyasadeva was inspired to approach Madhavacarya, this inspiration is Guru Tattwa, the realm of Lord Sesa Balarama, who does the inspirin. Does this sound strange, that the guru approaches the disciple? But, revisionism aside, this is guru tattwa, this is the meaning of the descending path as opposed to ascendence. Srila Prabhupada appeared to us westerners, he has approached us. Become sincere about reciprocating the love God has for us, and the spiritual master will approach us, just as Srila Vyasadeva left his hermitage to hook up Srila Madhavacarya, just as Srila Narada Muni always materializes for the likes of the five year old Dhruva (the determined one) maharaja.

 

Looking for gurus is so worthless endeavor. My search for a guru brought me meher baba, and he refused to speak until he got run over by a truck. Some god, eh? Not by the grace of me I get guru, God (Sesa Balarama) gives me guru, then I get God from whom He has sent (sounds christian, dont it?)

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

Yep,

That Clinton kool aid is poweful stuff. Now people wonder why Fox News has taken over CNN and MSNBC and all that because of all of the cover ups of the Clinton scandals.

Hare Krishna BDM,

I have heard many Vaisnavas that are mad at America because they say we have become a Christian Imperialistic force. I have heard Vaisnavas say who cares if Muslims and Christians kill each other, things like that. I don't necessarily agree with them but I can understand their frustration because there is a lot of dupilicity and materialism in America but like I say Prabhupada is the ultimate authority and Prabhupada said he didn't come here to convert people to Hinduism but to encourage them to follow their own religous principles and provide people with a further understanding of God if they were interested. So meditating on anger at Christians doesn't seem to be in the same mood that Srila Prabhupada was in based on what I have studied about him.

I understand peoples desire to see Christians destoyed.

That's not exactly what you meant - i think you meant christian enmity not christians?

YS,

BDM

Christianity is Vaisnavism

<!-- the main section of the post goes here -->

Bhakti-yoga means connecting ourselves with Krsna, God, and becoming His eternal associates. Bhakti-yoga cannot be applied to any other objective; therefore in Buddhism, for instance, there is no bhakti-yoga, because they do not recognize the Supreme Lord existing as the supreme objective.

Christians, however, practice bhakti-yoga when they worship Jesus Christ, because they are accepting him as the son of God and are therefore accepting God. Unless one accepts God, there is no question of bhakti-yoga. Christianity, therefore, is also a form of Vaisnavism, because God is recognized. Nonetheless, there are different stages of God realization.

Mainly, Christianity says, “God is great,” and that is a very good assertion, but the actual greatness of God can be understood from Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. Accepting the greatness of God is the beginning of bhakti. Bhakti-yoga also exists among the Muhammadans, because God is the target in the Muslim religion.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => PoP 8: Failure and Success in Yoga

Prabhupada: No, no. Christianity is Vaisnavism.

Dr. Patel: Vaisnavism? Absolutely Vaisnavism.

Prabhupada: Anyone who… Mohammedan is also Vaisnavism.

Dr. Patel: Mohammedanism is not Vaisnavism.

Prabhupada: No, no. Caitanya Mahaprabhu had talk with the Pathanas. He proved that “Your religion is Vaisnavism.”

Dr. Patel: Christianity is Vaisnavism 100%.

Prabhupada: Therefore in Caitanya-caritamrta there is. I have already explained that.

Dr. Patel: No, Christianity is 100% Vaisnavism. I have studied Christianity very well.

Prabhupada: Not hundred percent, but…

Dr. Patel: More or less.

Prabhupada: Yes.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk — February 17, 1974, Bombay

Dr. Patel: Christianity it is really Vaisnavism, but they, unfortunately…

The church…

Prabhupada: Mohamedanism… Mohammedanism…

Dr. Patel: The church has spoiled it.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Church has defaced it.

Prabhupada: Yes. Everywhere.

Dr. Patel: It is the church, Christian church, which has defaced Christism.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Everywhere the followers make the whole thing bungled.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk Excerpts — May 1, 1974, Bombay

Got that from www.prabhupada.org

Not all were - but the ones in the middle east were - do you deny well known history? Well of course you do!

"true" believers - well isn't that what you are supposed to be? How do people handle it when you say that Hare Krishna has all the answers? How do you hide your exclusivity to the truth?

So as I said - I know already what you think and you know already what I think - right?

Let's see a biased movie about hindu/vedic history - would you be happy to see a atheistic presentation of that too?

You sure still suffer from an extreme 'us and them' mindset - in opposition to the Teachings of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada...

YS,

BDM

Hare Krishna theist,

That is the way I look at it too. Love of God is in the Christian religion if that is what you are looking for. The key is getting that love for God then you don't have to bound by a bunch of ritualism etc. Krsna Consciousness literature hasn't lessened my love for Jesus in anyway, it has just expanded my view of God. I view that as a beautiful thing and I am still eager to hear or even relearn beautiful truths from both religions. Or like you say even if science is revealing Gods truth I like to learn from that or any other form of knowledge that reveals the wonders of God. They are like you say different sets of codes.

This gets interesting. I don't see someone's hearing of God conscious truth while sitting in a pew any different than hearing God conscious truth while sitting on a bare floor. So I don't consider that a "bridge" of any merit. It may however put the audience into a more familar and relaxed state but that could easily be reversed.

Some may have an advanced spiritual point to make that they learned while sitting at a desk and they may deliver it while sitting on a bare floor to others who are accustomed to sitting on the floor.

I see bridges though. Lord Jesus Christ told his disciples, "there are many other things I have to tell you but you cannot bear them now..." So within mono-theism there are beginning teachings which lead to higher & higher teachings so one could say that the bridge to a higher teaching is built into the so-called lower teaching which becomes apparant when the beginning teaching is properly understood. A stairway may offer a better example.

So Jesus brought God consciousness into the Hebrew religion and tried to draw them into spiritual life as opposed to their religious life of dry rules and regulations.

So to bridge the gap properly would take someone who was expert enough to build on what knowledge was correct with more knowledge vs. a 'debate and defeat' kind of mentality.

Say someone is praying to God for a new car. The praying is absolute but the soul needs more knowledge to learn to pray for that which is worth having which is of course love for God. But that can't forced by arguing over. "Stop praying for a car fool" admonitions get people nowhere. A proper bridge would be to somehow in some way encourage the continued prayer and reliance on God while at the same time introducing a higher goal of prayer.

This is not just in the west but what of all the Hindus that are engaged in polytheism? No need to go around telling people to stop praying to Ganesha for money but just clearly teach the principles of mono-theism and if they like they will adjust but not by force lest one upset the minds of others

A sectarianist can never build bridges. He only knows how to build walls.

I don't see the BI as only just building bridges. Using modern science to point out God where He is I accept as direct God consciousness. Now any God conscious truth is a doorwayto another God conscious realization. Not knowing science speak I view it as another language, another set of codes that reveal God. So I tend to see BI as preaching to those of a different language and culture than what I am used to. I look at some equations these scientists write out and it looks more foreign to me than sanskrit. Like from a different planet or something. But the Lord lives there too.

Hare Krishna Guest,

I agree with a lot of what you are saying and clearly you are a much more intelligent biblical scholar then I will ever be. I also agree with BDM that Krishna is unlimited so it is possible that He is even the Christian God. Maybe some cleric comes up with fanatic statements about exclusivity or maybe Moses had some moments when he was off his rocker or something but I believe the essence of Christianity is very similar to the essence of Krsna Consciousness.

Whenever I commune with the supersoul I always have warm feelings towards Jesus because it is my belief that he was willing to give up his physical body in trying to encourage people to have faith in God and not many people are willing to go that far.

I believe we should be tolerant of Muslims and Christians, in the sense that we respect each group's right to their beliefs. It doesn't mean we allow them to run are beliefs and traditions over in their crusades/jihads though. Everyone has a right to stand up for their own beliefs and follow God as they are led to. Therefore, we have every right to point out where we disagree with their dogma, when a bible thumper tries to convert us.

I have no desire to see any Christian or Muslim destroyed. We are all God's children. Just because they think we are eternally damned for our beliefs, we know better than to think that of them. They are on the Soul Journey as all of us. Many of us probably were dogmatic Christians are Muslim fundamentalists in our past lives. This is just the way things are in this world of duality and the changing masks we each go through.

Secondly, it should be pointed out that we are mainly addressing fundamentalists on this thread. However, in Judaism, Islam and Christianity, they do have mystical/esoteric traditions: which are Kabbalah, Sufism and Gnosticism, respectively. In these traditions they are much more openminded belief in reincarnation, etc... and when one plunders into the esoteric, Universal Truths can be discovered no matter what background we come from..

The Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas is an enlightened sage. I think much of what has been attributed to Jesus by orthodoxy is probably twisted and distorted, and the esoteric teachings of Jesus have been suppressed. Jesus was probably either an Essene or Kabbalist, and they were mystical sects..

I would also like to add that God can reach us in any tradition. It's not that any tradition is totally false. The Vedic way of looking at things is, each tradition is a path to God. But that does not mean we think each tradition is correct in all their teachings. Many teachings, like saying we only have one live to live, and then your damned forever if you didn't get it right, are clearly Adharmic. So while those who believe these things may indeed have some bhakti, and make some personal spiritual progress, their beliefs about the nature of God and Soul can still be severely misguided. Thus, we don't have to pretend like all our beliefs are the same. This can create confusion in seekers, trying to reconcile diverse traditions, with conflicting teachings.

Interesting.. my only question is: if this is true, why would he let the Jews think they alone were the chosen people on this planet, and the other tribes/people were non-elect gentiles, outside of covenant relationship with him? Do think it's possible that the Jews made that part up to become superior? Or perhaps none of the Torah was to be taken literally, and only an esoteric reading of it will suffice. If that is the case, some of H.P. Blavatsky's books are interesting in this regard.

In the past, I have read some articles on online that state the original Hebrews were wondering Saivites. It's an interesting read. If I find it I will post it.

Peace.

Hare Krishna bija,

Yours is a great story and nothing offensive about that at all.

Dear Theist,

I have not read anything that confirms your question. So I cannot answer. But over the months of reading this forum, and being graced by your openess, I have come to know a tiny bit about your approach to Krsna consciousness.

Because I cannot answer your question, I would like to share with you a little, how potent Srila Prabhupada's books are. I am somewhat hesitant to share my story over the net and do not know if it is the correct thing to do. But as I now use an anonymous name I am going to...please forgive me.

Back in the early nineties when my life was much more opulent than it is now I had the good fortune of taking a long journey. Backpacking. My first port of call was the america's. After spending some time travelling Mexico I made my way to California, San Diego. When I was in San Diego, oneday I saw a large group of Hare Krsna's chanting in a park. I had seen them in Australia before. Being very intrigued I approached them. And moved into the temple with them for about 3 or 4 days. These few days were very intense and made a strong impression on me. I was invited by the temple president to stay, but due to being young and full of material desires and wanting to travel more I left. Before I left I was given a set of Japa beads and taught the Hare Krsna Mahamantra. I chanted for several weeks on and off and eventually left it all aside.

Over the next two years I recieved a couple of Prabhupada's small books by good fortune. After reading them somewhat I also left them aside. But I do recall I was captured by a term in them, "Original Personality of Godhead."

Five months later I was involved in an unfortunate incident/accident and I encountered a classic near death experience. You know, the tunnel of light and all that. As I understand now, it involved being situated in my subtle body. I saw several things in this experience which are personal. But I will share one thing to show how potent these books are.

When I got to the end of the tunnel I cried out to God, "who are you?"

In that instance I heard a voice; the most beautiful resounding voice that I had ever heard, filled me with such calm and peace like I had never felt before and never felt since.

The response I recieved was one word, "Original." But the amazing thing was this most beautiful voice came distinctly from outside of me, and at the same time being situated within me, penetrated me to the core of my being.

Over the years of reading more of Srila Prabhupada's books I have gradually dicovered more and more of what this personal NDE means to me.

And the experience was the initial gradual turning point away from a foolish life to a journey back home.

So to answer your question, I have no doubt that a very wonderful seed can be planted in the heart from these very beautifully potent books. But I also would say that by taking shelter of a spiritual master and receiving the Name this potent seed will blossom even more.

If this post has offended anyone or is inappropriate to discuss in any way please forgive me. I will probably regret pressing the "submit reply" button now but I am going to anyway.

your servant....bija.

ps. there is one other thing I would like to say which is relevant to the potency of Srila Prabhupada's books. I was brought up as a practicing Roman Catholic, went through eleven years of Catholic education. Still love the empowered incarnation Jesus very much and respect the Church. But after such short, brief encounters with Krsna consciousness and Prabhupada's books before I experienced the NDE; the books made the strongest impression of who God is in my consciousness. Very potent books obviously written by a very special soul.

Hare Krishna bija,

"These material tastes are wearing thin"-

You can say that again. I once met an old man when I was a young man full of hopes and dreams. He told me "Life just keeps going on and on and on." I thought he was kind of cynical and bitter but now after spending many years of doing the same things over and over again I understand what he was saying.

As you would be aware any taste that is here in this material world is just a shadow reflection of the taste's that are in the spiritual world. I was just reading Science of Self Realisation yesterday and Prabhupada says, ....Everything we deal with here is present in the spiritual world, but here it has no real value. It is only a reflection...

This humorous rasa you are referring to can be found in chapter 49 of the book Nectar of Devotion, at www.vedabase.net . It is very special and is continually manifesting and unmanifesting in Gokula Vrindavan where Krsna performs His transcendental pastimes in the material world.

If we find these material taste's so relishable, how much much more so must be the case with the transcendental. I cannot begin to imagine.

Dear DB Cooper I am not there yet....but oh my goodness, I want to be; these material taste's are wearing thin!

I am definetly a neophyte in regards to Vedic literature but I was wondering is there any way to have a relationship with Krsna that is in mood of complete and total ridiculousness? I vaguely remember something in Prabhupada's books about there being a humorous relationship with Krsna but don't remember exactly what it said. I realize you would have to maintain the high regulative standards otherwise it would just turn into crude karmi comedy but I am very attracted to such a relationship because I just can't take life very seriously anymore no matter how hard I try.

I really like the incarnations of Krsna where he behaves like a madman living with cows and stuff. Those ones are just a riot. You can't help but love a guy like Him.

Can you get all that from reading Prabhupada's books. I read his books and recognize his greatness although I don't follow perfectly I am way better than I used to be. Mostly scared of devotee association because I have read about all sorts of horror stories in regards to Iskcon but eventually I realize I am going to have to abandon the association of a lot of the karmis I live around. I really like reading Srimad Bhagavatam, absolutely amazing book, but I have no desire to preach it to anyone, in fact I can't think of anything that would be worse than that. I don't know if this means I am going to burn in a karmic hell for many lifetimes, I would definetly prefer not to.

Sri Namamrita:

The great seventeenth-century VaiSNava poet Narottama dAsa ThAkura writes, golokera prema-dhana, hari-nAma-saGkIrtana: the transcendental sound of the holy name of the Lord has its origin in the spiritual world.

Being the sound incarnation of the Lord, therefore, the holy name is not an ordinary material sound; it is divine, transcendental. But the divine nature of the holy name remains forever a mystery to those whose approach is merely empiric or intellectual. In discussing the theology of the holy name with an assembly of scholars, SrIla HaridAsa ThAkura, the great teacher of the name, asserted, "One cannot understand the glories of the holy name merely by logic and argument." The holy name is understood and experienced only by those who have renounced all conceit and pretension and directly embraced the process of chanting with humility, faith, and devotion. As sound transmitted from afar can be heard when received by an appropriate electronic device, so transcendent, spiritual sound can be properly heard and assimilated by one equipped with the proper means to receive it: bhagavat-prema, love of God.

 

 

CC Antya 1.101:

<CENTER>kRSNa-nAmera mahimA zAstra-sAdhu-mukhe jAni

nAmera mAdhurI aiche kAhAG nAhi zuni

</CENTER>

kRSNa-nAmera mahimA--the glories of the holy name of Lord KRSNa; zAstra--of the revealed scriptures; sAdhu--of the devotees; mukhe--in the mouth; jAni--we can understand; nAmera mAdhurI--the sweetness of the holy name; aiche--in that way; kAhAG--anywhere else; nAhi zuni--we do not hear.

 

One has to learn about the beauty and transcendental position of the holy name of the Lord by hearing the revealed scriptures from the mouths of devotees. Nowhere else can we hear of the sweetness of the Lord's holy name.

PURPORT

It is said in the Padma PurANa, ataH zrI-kRSNa-nAmAdi na bhaved grAhyam indriyaiH [bRS. 1.2.234]. Chanting and hearing of the transcendental holy name of the Lord cannot be performed by the ordinary senses. The transcendental vibration of the Lord's holy name is completely spiritual. Thus it must be received from spiritual sources and must be chanted after having been heard from a spiritual master. One who hears the chanting of the Hare KRSNa mantra must receive it from the spiritual master by aural reception. SrIla SanAtana GosvAmI has forbidden us to hear the holy name of KRSNa chanted by non-VaiSNavas, such as professional actors and singers, for it will have no effect. It is like milk touched by the lips of a serpent, as stated in the Padma PurANa:

avaiSNava-mukhodgIrNaM pUtaM hari-kathAmRtam

zravaNaM naiva kartavyaM sarpocchiSTaM yathA payaH

As far as possible, therefore, the devotees in the KRSNa consciousness movement gather to chant the holy name of KRSNa in public so that both the chanters and the listeners may benefit.

 

 

SB 5.13.9:

<CENTER>kvacin nigIrNo 'jagarAhinA jano

nAvaiti kiJcid vipine 'paviddhaH

daSTaH sma zete kva ca danda-zUkair

andho 'ndha-kUpe patitas tamisre

</CENTER>

kvacit--sometimes; nigIrNaH--being swallowed; ajagara-ahinA--by the great snake known as the python; janaH--the conditioned soul; na--not; avaiti--understands; kiJcit--anything; vipine--in the forest; apaviddhaH--pierced by arrows of suffering; daSTaH--being bitten; sma--indeed; zete--lies down; kva ca--sometimes; danda-zUkaiH--by other kinds of snakes; andhaH--blind; andha-kUpe--in a blind well; patitaH--fallen; tamisre--in a hellish condition of life.

 

The conditioned soul in the material forest is sometimes swallowed by a python or crushed. At such a time he is left lying in the forest like a dead person, devoid of consciousness and knowledge. Sometimes other poisonous snakes bite him. Being blind to his consciousness, he falls down into a dark well of hellish life with no hope of being rescued.

PURPORT

When one becomes unconscious due to being bitten by a snake, one cannot understand what is taking place outside the body. This unconscious condition is the condition of deep sleep. Similarly, the conditioned soul is actually sleeping on the lap of the illusory energy. Bhaktivinoda ThAkura has sung, kota nidrA yAo mAyA-pizAcIra kole: "O living entity, how long will you sleep in this condition on the lap of the illusory energy?" People do not understand that they are actually sleeping in this material world, being devoid of knowledge of spiritual life. Caitanya MahAprabhu therefore says:

enechi auSadhi mAyA nAzibAra lAgi'

hari-nAma-mahA-mantra lao tumi mAgi'

"I have brought medicine to awaken every living being from perpetual sleep. Please receive the holy name of the Lord, the Hare KRSNa mahA-mantra, and awaken." The KaTha UpaniSad (1.3.14) also says, uttiSTha jAgrata prApya varAn nibodhata: "O living entity, you are sleeping in this material world. Please get up and take advantage of your human form of life." The sleeping condition means loss of all knowledge. In Bhagavad-gItA (2.69) it is also said, yA nizA sarva-bhUtAnAM tasyAM jAgarti saMyamI: "What is night for all beings is the time of awakening for the self-controlled." Even in the higher planets, everyone is under the spell of the illusory energy. No one is really interested in the real values of life. The sleeping condition, called kAla-sarpa (the time factor), keeps the conditioned soul in a state of ignorance, and therefore pure consciousness is lost. In the forest there are many blind wells, and if one falls down in one there is no chance of being rescued. In a state of sleep, one remains perpetually bitten by some animals, especially snakes.

 

 

Sri Namamrita:

One should receive the holy name from spiritual authorities:

[sukadeva GosvAmI to King ParIkSit]: O King, constant chanting of the holy name of the Lord after the ways of the great authorities is the doubtless and fearless way of success for all, including those who are free from all material desires, those who are desirous of all material enjoyment, and also those who are self-satisfied by dint of transcendental knowledge.

Here it is mentioned that one should constantly chant the holy name of the Lord after hearing it from authorities. This means that hearing from the authorities is the first essential.

SrImad-BhAgavatam 2.1.11

 

The transcendental sound must be received through a representative of the disciplic succession:

Communion with the Lord by transmission of the transcendental sound is nondifferent from the whole spirit Lord SrI KRSNa. It is a completely perfect method for approaching the Lord.… There is no bar for chanting this transcendental sound by anyone, provided it is received through NArada's representative, coming down by the chain of disciplic succession, or the paramparA system.

SrImad-BhAgavatam 1.5.39

 

If not received through the chain of disciplic succession, the holy name does not act:

One may receive a published mantra anywhere, but unless it is accepted through the chain of disciplic succession, the mantra does not act. It is said by authoritative sources that any mantra chanted without having been received from the disciplic succession has no efficacy.

SrImad-BhAgavatam 4.8.53

 

The disciple receives the authority to chant the holy name from the spiritual master:

[Lord Caitanya to PrakAzAnanda SarasvatI]: "‘My dear child, continue dancing, chanting and performing saGkIrtana in association with devotees. Furthermore, go out and preach the value of chanting kRSNa-nAma, for by this process You will be able to deliver all fallen souls.' Saying this, My spiritual master taught Me one verse from SrImad-BhAgavatam. It is the essence of all the BhAgavatam's instructions; therefore he instructed Me this verse again and again. ‘When a person is actually advanced and takes pleasure in chanting the holy name of the Lord, who is very dear to him, he is agItAted and loudly chants the holy name. He also laughs, cries, becomes agItAted and chants just like a madman, not caring for outsiders.' I firmly believe in these words of My spiritual master, and therefore I always chant the holy name of the Lord, alone and in the association of devotees. That holy name of Lord KRSNa sometimes causes Me to chant and dance, and therefore I chant and dance. Please do not think that I intentionally do it. I do it automatically."

A person who cannot keep his faith in the words of his spiritual master but acts independently never receives the authority to chant the holy name of the Lord. It is said in the Vedas:

yasya deve parA bhaktir

yathA deve tathA gurau

tasyaite kathitA hy arthAH

prakAzante mahAtmanaH

[sU 6.23]

"Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed."

This Vedic injunction is very important, and SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu supported it by His personal behavior. Believing in the words of His spiritual master, He introduced the saGkIrtana movement, just as the present KRSNa consciousness movement was started with belief in the words of our spiritual master. He wanted to preach, we believed in his words and tried somehow or other to fulfill them, and now this movement has become successful all over the world. Therefore faith in the words of the spiritual master and in the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the secret of success. SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu never disobeyed the orders of His spiritual master and stopped propagating the saGkIrtana movement.…

It is to be understood that when SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu chanted and danced, He did so by the influence of the pleasure potency of the spiritual world. SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu never considered the holy name of the Lord to be a material vibration, nor does any pure devotee mistake the chanting of the Hare KRSNa mantra to be a material musical manifestation. Lord Caitanya never tried to be the master of the holy name; rather He taught us how to be servants of the holy name. If one chants the holy name of the Lord just to make a show, not knowing the secret of success, he may increase his bile secretion, but he will never attain perfection in chanting the holy name. SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu presented himself in this way: "I am a great fool and do not have knowledge of right and wrong. In order to understand the real meaning of VedAnta-sUtra, I never followed the explanation of the SaGkara-sampradAya or MAyAvAdI sannyAsIs. I'm very much afraid of the illogical arguments of the MAyAvAdI philosophers. Therefore I think I have no authority regarding their explanations of VedAnta-sUtra. I firmly believe that simply chanting the holy name of the Lord can remove all misconceptions of the material world. I believe that simply by chanting the holy name of the Lord one can attain the shelter of the lotus feet of the Lord. In this age of quarrel and disagreement, the chanting of the holy names is the only way to liberation from the material clutches.

"By chanting the holy name," Lord Caitanya continued, "I become almost mad. However, after inquiring from My spiritual master I have come to the conclusion that instead of striving for achievement in the four principles of religiosity (dharma), economic development (artha), sense gratification (kAma) and liberation (mokSa), it is better if somehow or other one develops transcendental love of Godhead. That is the greatest success in life. One who has attained love of Godhead chants and dances by his nature, not caring for the public." This stage of life is known as bhAgavata-jIvana, or the life of a devotee."

SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu continued, "I never chanted and danced to make an artificial show. I dance and chant because I firmly believe in the words of My spiritual master. Although the MAyAvAdI philosophers do not like this chanting and dancing, I nevertheless perform it on the strength of his words. Therefore it is to be concluded that I deserve very little credit for these activities of chanting and dancing, for they are being done automatically by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

SrI Caitanya-caritAmRta Adi-lIlA 7.92–96

 

The holy name should be received from, and chanted under the direction of, the bona fide spiritual master:

[The transcendental sound representation] should be received from the transparent agency of the bona fide spiritual master, and the chanting may be practiced by the direction of the spiritual master. That will gradually lead us nearer to the Lord. This method of worship is recommended in the pAJcarAtrika system, which is both recognized and authorized.

SrImad-BhAgavatam 1.5.38

 

One can understand the glories of the holy name by the mercy of the spiritual master:

The holy name and the Lord are identical. One who is completely free from the clutches of mAyA can understand this fact. This knowledge, which is achieved by the mercy of the spiritual master, places one on the supreme transcendental platform. SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu presented Himself as a fool because prior to accepting the shelter of a spiritual master He could not understand that simply by chanting one can be relieved from all material conditions. But as soon as He became a faithful servant of His spiritual master and followed his instructions, He very easily saw the path of liberation.

SrI Caitanya-caritAmRta Adi-lIlA 7.73

 

The spiritual master delivers the disciple from mAyA by initiating him into the chanting of the holy name:

It is the spiritual master who delivers the disciple from the clutches of mAyA by initiating him into the chanting of the Hare KRSNa mahA-mantra. In this way a sleeping human being can revive his consciousness by chanting Hare KRSNa, Hare KRSNa, KRSNa KRSNa, Hare Hare/ Hare RAma, Hare RAma, RAma RAma, Hare Hare. In other words, the spiritual master awakens the sleeping living entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord ViSNu. This is the purpose of dIkSA, or initiation. Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness.

SrI Caitanya-caritAmRta Madhya-lIlA 9.61

 

One must receive the mahA-mantra from a guru, who makes it more powerful:

[Lord Siva to the sons of King PrAcInabarhi]: Now I shall chant one mantra which is not only transcendental, pure and auspicious, but is the best prayer for anyone who is aspiring to attain the ultimate goal of life. When I chant this mantra, please hear it carefully and attentively.

Lord Siva voluntarily came to bless the sons of the King as well as do something beneficial for them. He personally chanted the mantra so that the mantra would be more powerful, and he advised that the mantra be chanted by the King's sons (rAja-putras). When a mantra is chanted by a great devotee, the mantra becomes more powerful. Although the Hare KRSNa mahA-mantra is powerful in itself, a disciple upon initiation receives the mantra from his spiritual master, for when the mantra is chanted by the spiritual master, it becomes more powerful. Lord Siva advised the sons of the King to hear him attentively, for inattentive hearing is offensive.

SrImad-BhAgavatam 4.24.31–32

 

Being preserved and transmitted through disciplic succession, the holy names of Lord KRSNa and Lord Caitanya have as much potency now as during the physical appearance of Lord Caitanya:

Although Sri Caitanya MahAprabhu did not manifest His natural ecstatic love, everyone became a pure devotee simply by seeing and hearing Him.

Srila RUpa GosvAmI has described SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu as mahA-vadAnya-avatAra, the most munificent incarnation. Although SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu is not physically present now, simply by chanting His holy name (zrI-kRSNa-caitanya prabhu nityAnanda zrI-advaita gadAdhara zrIvAsAdi-gaura-bhakta-vRnda) people throughout the world are becoming devotees. This is due to the ecstatic chanting of the holy name of the Lord. It is said that a pure devotee can see the Lord every moment, and because of this he is empowered by the Lord. This is confirmed in Brahma-saMhitA: premAJjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaH sadaiva hRdayeSu vilokayanti [bs. 5.38]. SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu appeared five hundred years ago, but it cannot be said that now the potency of the Hare KRSNa mahA-mantra is less powerful than it was in His presence. By hearing SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu through the paramparA system, one can be purified. Therefore in this verse it is said: tathApi tAGra darzana-zravaNa-prabhAve. It is not that everyone is able to see KRSNa or SrI KRSNa Caitanya MahAprabhu physically, but if one hears about Him through books like SrI Caitanya-caritAmRta and through the paramparA system of pure VaiSNavas, there is no difficulty in becoming a pure VaiSNava, free from mundane desires and personal motivations.

SrI Caitanya-caritAmRta Madhya-lIlA 17.51

 

 

http://vedabase.net/mm/15/en :

As with any bona fide medicine, one should take the nectarean potion of the holy name under the guidance of experts, in this case sages and the spiritual master. The Supreme Lord's names vary with His different pastimes and relationships with His pure devotees. He appeared as the son of Mother YazodA and also as the son of Mother DevakI, and therefore He is named DevakI-nandana and YazodA-nandana. One should receive the Lord's authorized names from the spiritual master in disciplic succession.

 

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/11/2/46/en

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I can understand peoples frustrations with Christianity believe me. I have lived around them for a long time and I think it is fair to say they are enminical towards brahmanical culture for the most part. Just for my own personal peace of mind I like to take Prabhupada's mood toward Christians and try to encourage them to follow their own commandments then they can elevate to the mode of goodness and possibly become more interested in Krsna. A devotee like Prabhupada is tolerant as a tree, Krsna will probably be much more harsh on the Christians if they remain enminical to brahmanical culture, so I understand peoples desire to see Christians destoyed.

I do believe that Jesus was a pure devotee of God and that it is possible that the burning bush was Krsna and Krsna said to himself "I will give these primitive people in the desert a copy of regulative principles to follow, I would like to give them a copy of Srimad Bhagavatam but I fear they are too primitive to understand it". Just because I believe this doesn't mean I have any desire to join and be baptized by any Christian church anymore than I want to submit myself to a guru who demands worship, money, and then ends up having sex with his disciples.

Prabhupada said the Lame man (India) should join forces with the wealthy man(America) and promote spiritual culture around the world or something to that effect. As we can see that hasn't exactly happened as the world appears to be on the verge of collapse. Definetly a sad situation and I get a sense of forboding that a major catastrophe could happen sometime in the near future as a result of the karma going on. Hopefully I am wrong.

quote=gHari]Stay the hell out of Iran.

Get a life, you morons!

Your self-image of 'the good' godly brothers remains only in your own delusions of grandeur. Soon you'll have to be placed on the list of terrorist nations. We need to realize the godless hell that has become typical of our streets, and step down from our prancing ponies and realize that our enemy lives here bigger than life. Our enemy: ourselves.

Iran. Don't even think about it.

Surely you know that 9/11 is the direct result of your previous attacks on towers in Libya. That is what Bin Ladden said. While watching those towers fall on TV, he envisioned the 9/11 plan.

I guess that makes 9/11 simply extended collateral damage.

I found a quote in Srimad Bhagavatam that says if you recite the story of Prahlada Maharaja in the morning and evening with faith and devotion then all or your material needs will automatically be taken care of by Krishna and you will be guaranteed to go back to Godhead when you quit your body. I don't know if this means there is some flexibility in devotional service. From what I have read Prabhupada was very strict about chanting 16 rounds and following regulative principles but then I have read other statements where Prabhupada says the most important regulative principle to follow is no illicit sex and that if you are going to eat meat make sure and not to eat cows. I guess it changes for the audience he is speaking too or something. Maybe he was making concessions because western culture is so blind to spiritual realization.

Haribol,

great blog by Akincan Maharaj, moreso because the purport of it can be applied to all aspects of sadhana, not just to the chanting of the holy name. I particularly found the following line quite striking, as it shows quite accurately how surreptitiously letting slip the reigns of regulated principles actually takes place:

"But the concession soon became the norm, the exception soon became the rule, the minimum soon became the maximum"

The workings of this tendency through other aspects of sadhana already becomes evident if we browse even through some recent posts in topics of this very forum; topics about it's okay to eat chocolate because Prabhupada once ate a bit(exception becoming the norm), about it's not so bad to eat garlic and onion because hey it's vegetarian, about it's okay to worship any God whimsically because they're all the same One God anyway etc. etc.

Some may seem insignificant, and that is why they're dangerous. Keep letting the small things slide and bigger things may follow. Soon you'll find yourself engrossed in material lifestyle again and wonder what happened. Or worse you may not wonder and just give in to it by thinking that chanting a few rounds daily will cancel out the sins, which is an offense to the chanting of the holy name. All in all an inspiring read, thank you for posting that.

Hare Krishna

Christians have been making all sort of claims and misinterpretation of the 10 Commandments and Old Testament for years. No need to complain anywhere. Even Jews don't bother about it anymore.

After all, how can you bother to take anything seriously from a society which potray 10 Commandments (two of them is they be nice to their neighbours and they do not commit adultery) WHEN Christians make war for nearly 500 years and Christian nations are biggest producers of porn materials?

Everyone is full of faults in Kali-yuga. Best to pray for people to follow the rules of their religion, that is what Prabhupada did. He had great respect for Christianity as I have seen quotes that say Christianity is a form of Vaisnavism and that Prabhupada has no war with Christianity. All he asked is for Christians to please follow their commandments. He didn't make fun of them.

I have heard that brahmacharya is celibacy by thought, word and deed together as a way of life attached towards god. But I have certain doubts regarding physical aspects of practising brahmacharya. Is it true that, one should not trim nails, cut or shave hair anywhere in the body. In fact, Iam told that a brahmachari's physical body shouldnot undergo any artificial change. Any knowledgeable devotees here, please give some meaningful answers and if possible, with ample scriptural evidence.

Many thanks to all devotees

Don't know the scriptural answer to this at all but I would think remaining celibate or at least just loyal to one partner would be more important than worrying about how the body is maintained due to some form of external ritualism or something. For me when I see a beautiful woman or something I just think that she is actually just made of flesh, blood, stool and urine and that usually cures any lusty desires that might arise plus thinking about all the trouble you have to go through to maintain a woman is usally enough to get me to come to my senses but like they say sexual attraction is a powerful force you just have to be rational about it and realize the trouble it can bring.

Of course American civilization is so blind to spiritual realization that when men get to the age when they get tired of sex and are possibly at a place where they can renounce it the civilization and their wives encourage them to take viagra or cialis and keep at it.

Seriously that is good advice given but unfortunately in America this is very big problem. I don't know if it is because most of the males are sudras or what but the women like to bounce around from partner to partner quite a bit.

Hare Bolo!

 

Yes this movie was presenting a subtle slant that was directed at Moses and the early Hebrew faith - but it also reflected on Christianity and Islam as well - as these faiths derive from the former.

 

Of course much of the law of Moses is also the laws of Manu - so there is no question of the law - there is question to the point of the interpretations and utilization of the law of God as given through various hands.

 

There was one point in the movie when after the death of the first born Moses had a visit from his alleged foster brother - an egyptian.

 

He was shown as being raised with this fellow - in any case - when the guy showed up he had his departed son with him and he says to Moses that his God was a cruel God then he asked if Moses would kill him too if his God asked it of him and the moses guy didn't answer.

 

That episode was all fictional - yet the passion [against all God people] that it engendered in its presentation - is all too real.

 

This movie spent too much time showing the Hebrews - as it wasn't. Why?

 

Yes the media is being used to degrade people and their opinions of God and religion in general. Who is responsible? It is the personality of Kali - he is exploiting individuals wherever possible. Much of it simply appears 'no mindedly' - as a result of the pushing of the modes of passion and ignorance.

 

Those people who don't like to be aware of these modes of nature are easy targets for the personality of kali.

 

They really ticked me off with how they presented Moses - it was unfair.

 

Mr. Bush you mention - well I credit him with having a faith and wanting to improve that faith - I believe that his understanding of The Object of his Faith is broadening and God is reciprocating with him now more than ever.

 

Just a hunch but soon we shall see him embrace a broad public change.

 

I think one thing is also important for us to understand - we may have more hope with conservatives than with liberals - conservatives understand many points like us - such as - on TV - there doesn't need to be so much filth!

 

It's at every other word in most programs - there is TOO MUCH so-called liberal expression and what is the effect on the generation that grows up in this intense filth environment?

 

So conservative leaders are at some point going to be more inclined to clean some of this up - but - we must hope that they take proper guidence from Prabhupada - with regard to time and circumstances - when doing the needfull.

 

With that - two things must be their resolve - actually being motivated by sincere desires to clean things up and - not acting with duplicity in its execution.

 

I pray for our leaders that they shall soon turn onto Srila Prabupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada says that his books shall be the law books of mankind - well it shall have to start somewhere sometime some generation is going to do this - why not here and now.

 

Srila Prabhupada says that we need a perfect dictator!

 

So one day mankind shall leave aside all this toying with the lower modes of nature - in connection to the activities of the personality of kali.

 

Right now quarrel is being poised to shake everyone hard! We are doing it to ourselves!

 

So as Prabhupada says that even if there were someone proper to vote for - it would be near impossible to educate everyone to elect that person - he says that it is easier to educate the leaders - serve the root and the whole plant is saved. Serve the leaves and the plant withers and dies.

 

So we must post Srila Prabhupada and hope that we get their attention and that they are turned onto Prabhupada.

 

I think that that 'taco guy' was a riot - just see - how can we get people sincerely interested in having to save the world from the ruin of degredation and ruin - when there are so many people who wish to embrace ignorance?

 

Without a doubt if we cannot save our leaders - we cannot save the world of lost souls!

 

I hope that one day I get millions of dollars and I'll make great faith based movies that shall induce real understanding and respect - for all faiths and respect for The Object of All Faiths - God.

 

YS,

 

BDM

You may be right. But American academia is full of very cynical, materially minded people so to see them take baby steps toward accepting some sort of order to the universe is in my mind a positive development. Full blown Krsna Consciousness they are probably not prepared for yet, very few people I know are. Most of the people I know go apesh*t at the thought of giving up drugs, sex and alcohol and accepting a higher authority so we got to take it slow.

Yeah I saw the movie and there were parts of it where I did get the sense that the folks from Hollywood were trying to make some kind of social statement against Christianity. They were probably trying to say that Moses is George Bush or something. You never can tell for sure because everyone in the media seems to have some sort of agenda these days now no matter how subtle it can be.

I have even heard Hindus that have amazing misconceptions about their own faith. I once talked to a Taco selling Brahmin from Texas who insisted that Arjuna was a fool for sharing his wife with his brothers and said that Krishna was nothing but a rooster let loose in a hen house. The guy claimed to be a descendent of high brahmin lineage from India.

Wow!

I am hoping they will give me double that if I hand them a copy of the Bhagavad Gita, lets just hope they are able to grasp its essence. Finally I may have found a get rich quick scheme that will take care of me for the rest of my life! Just kidding.

Seriously though that is good news and hopefully academia will take his research seriously and then the public will accept it as truth and it will lead the public to abandon atheistic philosophies and usher in a new era of peaceful theism and the inhabitants of this dreadful planet will become pacified and content.

That just shows you Prabhupada was a man of supreme humility. But anyone with any insider knowledge can tell you that he is far too humble in that statement in my opinion. It took unimaginable courage to do what he did. When I look at people in general nothing scares me more than thinking to myself "I should go instruct those people in Vedic Knowledge" whereas Prabhupada would do it without hesitation.

Just saw this on O'Reilly. African American students are mad at Peta because they compared cruelty to animals to slavery. Oh Lord the Kali-yuga just gets stranger by the minute. Seems like from a Krsna Conscious perspective Peta is right. I can understand African Americans being offended to a certain degree but at the same time they are too attached to their identities as African Americans to realize that cruelty to animals is a form of slavery in my opinion.

The part that would concern me about something like this is that people had to keep their distance and his followers hid him behind a curtain at night. If he was really the Buddha reincarnated he would probably be busy telling everyone that the "soul is the only refuge" and would be willing to debate people. I know a guy who is an expert in Buddhism and he said the Buddha was constantly travelling around telling people that the "soul is the only refuge".

Not to long ago I had some Mormon missionaries come over trying to convert me to Mormonism so I decided to do a little study on their religion. I don't know if it is true but I found a site of ex-Mormons and they were saying that Joseph Smith was a fraud and the Mormon temples that Joseph Smith designed had all of these secret rooms with guards and it took certain passwords to access them and it was in these rooms that Joseph Smith took young girls. That kind of secretiveness stuff hiding behind curtains and secret passwords and all that is creepy.

I admit you make some intelligent thought provoking points in your address to this Captain. I definetly can't blame anyone for being against the war or any war for that matter. I voted for Bush twice because I watched the tactics that Clintons lawyers used against Juanita Broderick, and that other woman that he messed around with and decided I didn't want anyone in the White House who is associated with Bill Clinton due to his lack of moral character. If he would have been honest from the start and just said "you know what, I am just a dog at heart, I can't keep my hands of beautiful women, or even not so beautiful women, when they throw themselves at me, or even when they don't" I could have had some respect for him for being honest.

I knew when we went to Iraq that would effectively be the end of Bush's Presidency even though at some level I can understand shutting down Saddam.

It seems a virtual certainty that the liberals will be back in power very soon and it will probably be Hillary Clinton and her cronies that get their hands on the steering wheel of this tragi-comedy called the material world.

I don't know if Krsna has a sick sense of humor if he is the one empowering these people or if it is our fault because we are the ones empowering them and we want to be fooled.

I have read that not even a blade of grass moves without Krsna's sanction so I guess for some reason he wants these people in power. I guess it is possible that Bush and the Clintons are devotees and Krsna sent them to the material world to play as demons so he could fight them so maybe Krsna will ultimately save us from these people I don't know.