raga

I think this is the umpteenth time this has been taken up. Use the search and look it up.

Good work!

 

How is that the Sri Guru in your Heart is not guiding you to the appropriate person to take spiritual shelter?

 

 

Caitya-guru will not necessarily take one directly to the vyasti-guru. A period of inquiry, study and introspection is very helpful to make the heart a befitting vessel for eventually receiving the mercy of a sad-guru with appropriate honor. Such an encounter will prove to be more fruitful.

You could begin with a thorough examination of the theology of guru-tattva. For example, check out the following title:

 

http://www.krishnacaitanya.com/pdf/guru-bhakta-tattva-vijnana.pdf

 

You'll find my e-mail in my member profile in case you wish to drop a note.

Praise unto all born-again Christian crusaders.

 

Please Just Chant Hare Krishna but Don't get into all this Saranagati business!

 

This is what we unfortunately hear from some neophyte devotees sometimes when we want to engage ourselves in the hearing,chanting,singing and discussing the bhajans of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

 

 

Evidently your post is meant to address a misconception. However, who is saying so?

 

What we see in the example of Arjuna and Krsna IS INTIATION.

 

He became submissive and surrender to Krsna and submitted questions to Him asking his doubts to be removed. Krsna then imparted transcendental knowledge. That IS INITIATION.

 

 

The problem comes when you present such a statement without reconciling it with the acaryas' clear definition of diksa as the reception of mantra from the guru.

 

This is what I meant with "messiah independent from the tradition".

 

What we see in the example of Arjuna and Krsna IS INTIATION.

 

He became submissive and surrender to Krsna and submitted questions to Him asking his doubts to be removed. Krsna then imparted transcendental knowledge. That IS INITIATION.

 

 

The problem comes when you present such a statement without reconciling it with the acaryas' clear definition of diksa as the reception of mantra from the guru.

 

This is what I meant with "messiah independent from the tradition".

 

god: Madhavananda das has proposed that some devotees in our disciplic succession never underwent formal diksa.

 

Babhru: I'm not sure that's what he said. He said that many of the connections in the guru-parampara are not by formal diksa, but that's not news to most of us. That's not the same as saying that they never took formal diksa. I don't think anyone has presented any evidence that any of these devotees never accepted formal diksa. If I missed something, please clue me in.

 

 

I sent the following to Chakra:

 

 

In his response to my original write-up, Ramagopal Uppaluri has stated:

 

"Madhavananda das has proposed that some devotees in our disciplic succession never underwent formal diksa. All these personalities, however, were stalwart devotees sent by the Lord to assist the progress of the Sankirtana movement."

 

However, I have never proposed such a thing. Having studied the history of the acaryas rather extensively, I know it very well that all of them have accepted diksa. I have even specifically mentioned the names of most of the diksa-gurus of the acaryas in my article. I cannot understand how Ramagopal arrived at such a conclusion based on what I wrote.

 

As an amendment to the original text of mine, it should be noted that the diksa-guru of Baladeva was obviously Radha Damodara Das Goswami of Syamananda Parivar, not Radha Ramana Das Gosvami. My apologies for the unintended slip.

 

 

I have no clues based on what logic he draw such a conclusion!

 

god: Madhavananda das has proposed that some devotees in our disciplic succession never underwent formal diksa.

 

Babhru: I'm not sure that's what he said. He said that many of the connections in the guru-parampara are not by formal diksa, but that's not news to most of us. That's not the same as saying that they never took formal diksa. I don't think anyone has presented any evidence that any of these devotees never accepted formal diksa. If I missed something, please clue me in.

 

 

I sent the following to Chakra:

 

 

In his response to my original write-up, Ramagopal Uppaluri has stated:

 

"Madhavananda das has proposed that some devotees in our disciplic succession never underwent formal diksa. All these personalities, however, were stalwart devotees sent by the Lord to assist the progress of the Sankirtana movement."

 

However, I have never proposed such a thing. Having studied the history of the acaryas rather extensively, I know it very well that all of them have accepted diksa. I have even specifically mentioned the names of most of the diksa-gurus of the acaryas in my article. I cannot understand how Ramagopal arrived at such a conclusion based on what I wrote.

 

As an amendment to the original text of mine, it should be noted that the diksa-guru of Baladeva was obviously Radha Damodara Das Goswami of Syamananda Parivar, not Radha Ramana Das Gosvami. My apologies for the unintended slip.

 

 

I have no clues based on what logic he draw such a conclusion!

 

In fact if you read in Sri Chaitanya Charitamrta, Kaviraj Goswami actually has Das Goswami telling Yadunandana Acharya "I will tell the priest to come back and do his service", but then Das Goswami goes the other way and goes to Mahaprabhu in Puri. I don't like to give a commentary on what happened. Kaviraj himself makes it quite clear. Who is Das Goswami's Guru? It is a complicated case, but then he find his Guru, there is no doubt. And where did he find his final shelter.... Sri Rupa Manjari .

 

 

Yes. Still, it is fascinating how Das Gosvamipad himself approaches the matter. The fourth verse of the mangalacaran of his Vilapa Kusumanjali, which is considered his last work and the pinnacle of his aspirations.

 

<font color="darkblue">prabhur api yadunandano ca eSa

priya-yadunandana unnata-prabhAvaH |

svayam atula-kRpAmRtAbhiSekaM

mama kRtavAMs tam ahaM guruM prapadye ||4||

 

My master Yadunandana, who is dear to Lord Yadunandana, personally he bathed me in his nectarine, unprecedentedly powerful and inconceivable mercy. Unto him, guru, I surrender."</font>

 

In his mangalacaran, the author acknowledges Rupa Manjari (1-2), Rupa's blessings to Rati Manjari (3), Yadunandan Acarya (4), Sri Caitanyacandra (5), who gave him to Sri Damodara (Svarupa Damodar or Krishna), and Sanatana Gosvami (6).

 

It is fascinating that though he acknowledges them all, he only specifies Yadunandana Acarya as "guru".

 

Some consider Yadunandan Acarya a family priest without much more significance to it. Krishnadas Kaviraj, however, writes: advaita-AcAryera teGha ziSya antaraGga, AcArya-AjJAte mAne caitanya prANa-dhana -- "He was a confidential disciple of Advaita Acarya, and on the order of Acarya, Caitanya was the treasure of his life."

 

 

In fact if you read in Sri Chaitanya Charitamrta, Kaviraj Goswami actually has Das Goswami telling Yadunandana Acharya "I will tell the priest to come back and do his service", but then Das Goswami goes the other way and goes to Mahaprabhu in Puri. I don't like to give a commentary on what happened. Kaviraj himself makes it quite clear. Who is Das Goswami's Guru? It is a complicated case, but then he find his Guru, there is no doubt. And where did he find his final shelter.... Sri Rupa Manjari .

 

 

Yes. Still, it is fascinating how Das Gosvamipad himself approaches the matter. The fourth verse of the mangalacaran of his Vilapa Kusumanjali, which is considered his last work and the pinnacle of his aspirations.

 

<font color="darkblue">prabhur api yadunandano ca eSa

priya-yadunandana unnata-prabhAvaH |

svayam atula-kRpAmRtAbhiSekaM

mama kRtavAMs tam ahaM guruM prapadye ||4||

 

My master Yadunandana, who is dear to Lord Yadunandana, personally he bathed me in his nectarine, unprecedentedly powerful and inconceivable mercy. Unto him, guru, I surrender."</font>

 

In his mangalacaran, the author acknowledges Rupa Manjari (1-2), Rupa's blessings to Rati Manjari (3), Yadunandan Acarya (4), Sri Caitanyacandra (5), who gave him to Sri Damodara (Svarupa Damodar or Krishna), and Sanatana Gosvami (6).

 

It is fascinating that though he acknowledges them all, he only specifies Yadunandana Acarya as "guru".

 

Some consider Yadunandan Acarya a family priest without much more significance to it. Krishnadas Kaviraj, however, writes: advaita-AcAryera teGha ziSya antaraGga, AcArya-AjJAte mAne caitanya prANa-dhana -- "He was a confidential disciple of Advaita Acarya, and on the order of Acarya, Caitanya was the treasure of his life."

 

http://www.granthamandira.org

 

The site engine is under revision, the new site will be up as early as I get my act together. This one works fine too, check that out for the time being. Should be enough for a couple of days to read?

Yup. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I could translate them into Sanskrit, but I'm not so sure if they would resemble girl's names... Jagat, any thoughts?

<table bgcolor="#FFFFFF" width="80%" cellpadding="10" border="1" align="center"><tr><td><div align="center">

 

"VRINDAVAN GHATS & YAMUNA RESTORATION"

 

CHIR GHAT. Vrindavan, Tuesday, June 3rd 2003, from 7.00 a.m.</div>

 

Krishna, the God of love could not kill Kaliya, the serpent of pollution living in Yamuna, he merely contains him and orders Kaliya to live in the depths of the ocean. Krishna is telling us that he, being the Supreme godhead is unable to kill pollution, the greatest evil.

 

Once created it cannot be destroyed,

at best it can only be contained,

so he tells us not to pollute.

 

But Kaliya has returned to Yamuna at Vrindavan.

Yamuna has been forced away from Vrindavan

and we push her further away from our hearts and better sense each day.

 

PERHAPS THE WAY FORWARD IS TO RESPECT THE YAMUNA AS OUR WATER SOURCE

AND THE GHATS AS THE TRADITIONAL ACCESS TO YAMUNA.

LET US WORK TOGETHER IN SEVA, TO SAVE A DHAM!

THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.

WHICH WAY ARE YOU GOING?

 

Friends of Vrindavan

Gambhira, Jai Singh Ghera

Vrindavan. UP 281 121 India.

Tel: + 91 (0) 565 2 442 087</td></tr></table>

 

Is there something new that has come out, in regard to these discussions? I would be interested to see that.

 

 

Murali,

 

Nothing drastic really. I just wrote the bit above in curiosity to see ISKCON's approach to the topic.

 

Interesting, your note on Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's giving also the Guru-mantra and Gaura-mantra in the presence of Bhaktivinod. Did he get them from Bhaktivinod himself, or where? Narayan Maharaj writes in "Acarya Kesari" something to the extent that Kesava Maharaj was the first one to receive guru-mantra from Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati.

 

I still haven't found a simple, clear-cut and brief answer on how the parampara can descend with gaps in between the persons, whether initiators or instructors. Would you condense your view in one paragraph or so? I do have interest in the topic, but not enough to go through dozens, if not hundreds of pages of text in trying to figure out a simple answer to a simple question.

 

Good journey and have a safe trip.

 

Is there something new that has come out, in regard to these discussions? I would be interested to see that.

 

 

Murali,

 

Nothing drastic really. I just wrote the bit above in curiosity to see ISKCON's approach to the topic.

 

Interesting, your note on Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's giving also the Guru-mantra and Gaura-mantra in the presence of Bhaktivinod. Did he get them from Bhaktivinod himself, or where? Narayan Maharaj writes in "Acarya Kesari" something to the extent that Kesava Maharaj was the first one to receive guru-mantra from Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati.

 

I still haven't found a simple, clear-cut and brief answer on how the parampara can descend with gaps in between the persons, whether initiators or instructors. Would you condense your view in one paragraph or so? I do have interest in the topic, but not enough to go through dozens, if not hundreds of pages of text in trying to figure out a simple answer to a simple question.

 

Good journey and have a safe trip.

In the text, the passage:

 

 

(7) Baladeva received diksa from Radharamana Das Gosvami

 

 

Should obviously read:

 

 

(7) Baladeva received diksa from Radha Damodara Das Gosvami

 

 

Sorry for the mistake, I wonder how it crept in. I must have been absorbed in thoughts of Visvanath.

In the text, the passage:

 

 

(7) Baladeva received diksa from Radharamana Das Gosvami

 

 

Should obviously read:

 

 

(7) Baladeva received diksa from Radha Damodara Das Gosvami

 

 

Sorry for the mistake, I wonder how it crept in. I must have been absorbed in thoughts of Visvanath.

 

One should likely ask what are the relationships between these exalted souls in the spiritual world. That may well be the most important bond in the Bhagavata parampara.

 

 

An interesting proposal. Somebody wants to answer the question? The answer is not exactly to be found in their writings.

 

One should likely ask what are the relationships between these exalted souls in the spiritual world. That may well be the most important bond in the Bhagavata parampara.

 

 

An interesting proposal. Somebody wants to answer the question? The answer is not exactly to be found in their writings.

Jagat goes Dvaraka? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

The person writing as "outcaste", "a friend", "the neophyte", and so forth, should kindly identify himself. The style of writing appears rather identical to a follower of Narayan Maharaj called Anadi who used to post as a registered member until one day one of his senior godbrothers chastised him for his inappropriate preaching.

 

Our unidentified guest, please answer yes or no:

 

Are you the same person as the member who posted as Anadi?