Janus

“We are, nevertheless still, very far from the positive spiritual realization even after we are prepared to admit the difference between mundane and spiritual… by mere intellectual convicion, as it is never possible for the eclipsed cognitive power of man to conceive the transcendental issue as it is. For such realization man requires to be fully helped by the initiative of the Absolute Himself. It is also necessary to be enabled to receive this initial help by the due exercise of the proper receptive activity.” Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Whether then one is speaking about sex as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur was in this 1935 article from the Harmonist, or speaking about any other transcendental truth does not matter. The point is that without foundation, or the exercise of ones receptive activity by which that foundation is created, the reception of transcendental truth does not take place, no matter how much is “disseminated” Submissive listening is a must, but what the achraryas mean by “submissive” listening is hardly something that we seem to understand, otherwise how is it that an ocean of transcendental truth has been disseminated by Srila Prabhupada, Sridhar Maharaja, etc., and yet it seem that quite a few of us have managed to fail to even get a drop? So strong is our habit, our conditioning that worse than walking around asleep all the time we are drifting off into our “Real” Universes, walking around hypnotized, and in this nightmarish condition we are eternally argueing with each other over who is being the more objective, EVEN when it is certainly made clear by this comment by Srila Bhaktisiddhnta that their aint no one else here in this great big ocean of nescience except those of us who are drowning. Of course there are, or we believe that there are, or we at least hope that there are some few gals and guys that know the truth and can present it to us. Occasionally we come across one, sitting alone on a seat in a subway car. Heck, he probably has the whole car to himself. What the heck makes us imagine that it is transcendental truth that we want anyway? We sure can’t tell it from the glaring examples that have appeared to us in the form of those “Great Devotees” that our movement allowed to take it to Hell. Oh yes we can tell it in little ways, if we want to see them. What makes you think that we do? Oh yes, the illusion of autonomy, like you are your "Real" identity man? Something else is working on us, something else which running is below our level of awareness. Some damn program is running, several programs actually. The biggest of course is that little old true friend of ours the big “L”, Lust, but there is another one going, just as strong, and that is FEAR. Our biological imperatives my be weak, but we havn’t lost all of our senses yet, we know what it takes to stay alive. Srila Prabhupada commented quite frequently that the conditions in this society for practicing Krsna Consciousness weren’t favorable. If I recall correctly it was one of the few times that he actually said that it simply wasn’t possible to do something. Outside of the society of devotees Srila Prabhupada said that it was impossible for us to practice Krsna consciousness. But how in Heck would that engender fear? Next: “When Worlds Collide.” But be comforted, this is “The Day the Earth Stood Still” and I… am the Master (Usually I just prefer to make the grass green, but I think I also have the ability to help you to the next step, to the next person, a greater Prabhu than I. I think that I can help you to the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada and to the lotus feet of many other Vaisnava’s who are ready to receive you. I still am empowered enough to change a world or two, might as well start on one that needs it badly, one where human life stands upon the brink of it’s greatest fulfillment, Krsna consciousness, or extinction. I will need help however, from my prabhu’s, you, whose lotus feet I am in such a sad and silly habit of offending. Just yank me back when I go drifting off into my "Real" Universe, will you? Hari bol.

Concretely, two people can "be" in the same existential situation yet experience two very, very different "Real" Universe. If they are both modelthesists (sectarian) or Fundamentalists, these different visions and versions of the "Real" Universe will both be experienced as "objective" and each will REACT passivly. If both are in heightened consciousness, eyes and ears open, hearing submissivly - seeking more and more signals every minute - both "Real" Universe will still be different, but each will be experienced as a CREATION and both persons will be involved. It is more likely in the second case they will be able to communicate clearly and understand both themselves and one another; in the former case, they may fall into violent quarrel about who has the correct vision or version of the "Real" Universe and the right man will have to punish the other for his "envy."

"Prabhupada wanted us to actually see others as prabhu, did he not, therefore always automatically offering respects to everyone everywhere?" We should certainly be there to offer friendship and encouragment to each other, each and every day, but should we be open to each other? That again most certainly, but while we are we most certainly again gaurd against our habit of wandering off into the "Real" Universe and stay involved in where we are, what we are doing and what is going on around us. In the "Real" Universe, all things are determined, including us and our thoughts. We are therein the products our our conditioning and are merely reactive mechanisms, in the experienced world, we are creators. The "Real" Universe is just another of our creations - a dangerous one, with the tendency to hypnotize us. Our mode of consciousness seems historically to have been determined by neurological (unconscious) habits. When we become aware of this, and struggle against this inertia of habit, consciousness continually mutates, becomes less particle like and "fixed," spreads like a flowing wave, we become finally capable of submissive listening, of finally regarding not only our own Godbrothers and Godsisters, but everyone, even the littlest ant, as Prabhu.

We should certainly be there to offer friendship and encouragment to each other, each and every day, but should we be open to each other? That again most certainly, but while we are we most certainly again gaurd against our habit of wandering off into the "Real" Universe and stay involved in where we are, what we are doing and what is going on around us. In the "Real" Universe, all things are determined, including us and our thoughts. We are therein the products our our conditioning and are merely reactive mechanisms, in the experienced world, we are creators. The "Real" Universe is just another of our creations - a dangerous one, with the tendency to hypnotize us. Our mode of consciousness seems historically to have been determined by neurological (unconscious) habits. When we become aware of this, and struggle against this inertia of habit, consciousness continually mutates, becomes less particle like and "fixed," spreads like a flowing wave, we become finally capable of submissive listening, of finally regarding not only our own Godbrothers and Godsisters, but everyone, even the littlest ant, as Prabhu.

Everything we see we see only within our own tiny heads, the sun, the moon, the entire universe, everything. Everything we see we see internally, in our minds eye, and thus everything that we see is, in a very real sense, only our imagination. Pratyaksa, or sense perception is relative, and it is also karanapatava, or imperfect. It is relative because it is not absolute. It is relative because it is not perfect, not direct. Direct experience requires that that which is being experienced must be at least in essence the same as that which is experiencing it. Thus while the material senses can have a direct experience with a material object, and thus while the mind can have a direct experience with a thought, the self same soul that is the actual identity remains aloof from the objects of the senses, unaffected, untouched, un-involved with both the gross and subtle forms of matter. But not out of trying, of course. We try to touch so very closely, to hold so very much, but what do we touch, only an appearance of our actuality. Something so beautiful, that turns so very ugly, something so smooth that wrinkles to our touch, something so sweet that turns to bitter. Of the hundreds and thousands of bits of sensory data that we are receiving at each and every moment of our lives we are still only receiving a small portion of all that is available and by the time we receive a conscious perception of the object that we have been viewing in our minds eye, we are only receiving some ten or fifteen bits of the original tens of thousands of bits of energy that our senses apprehended, and by the process of selection even more are lost, and then to fill in the gap, something else is added. In that brief moment between the impact of the energy from a space time event upon our visual receptors until the instant of an images appearance in our minds eye, the mind has added color, shape, size and placement and has suited it also to conform with our expectations. Thus even the colors that we perceive are muted or brightened in conformance to something as simple as our moods. And yet, in spite of all this our greatest imagination is our imagination that we are both objective and comprehensive, even when we realize that every single illusion that we have of reality is conjectured and inferred. Universe is the sum total of all possibilities. In my fathers house there are many mansions. The kingdom of God is at hand. My Universe, my house, my hand. Vipralipsa; deception, a deception that is tangible, that we taste, that we touch, that we scent, see and hear. A deception that blinds our eyes with it’s beauty, that tastes sweetness in our mouths, touches softness to our skin. The appearance of objectivity, that we are somehow being more objective than the next person, that we are right and that they are wrong, that we being very, very good and that they are being very, very bad; “envious” for challenging “God”, our perception. The priests of the idol speak only the words that the faithful wish to hear. “Believe and sink not doubt and perish” Thus would run the edict of the other god who names me demon to His angels. They echo the sound which strikes their ear and knowing not beyond their shallow senses worship the word which strikes their ear and deem evil or good what is proclaimed to them in their abasement. I will have none such.” Byron, Cain, a Play

Subjective: Of or belonging to that which is within the mind and not subject to independent verification. Everything that you see is in your head Prabhu the sun, the moon, the entire universe. I am in your head. Just imagine what I could do there. Sorry though, I can't stay long enough to get to know you, just as well though. Keep up the good work though! Hari bol Objective: Something that is externally perceivable and subject to independent verification by the mind and senses. Subjective Faith and Reality: We appreciate any saint or scripture according to our subjective faith. Prabhupad or any saint will have their own level of spiritual attainment that is not fully objective, especially to those outside their particular circle. From our point of view this can be attributed to the covering of illusion as explained in BG: 7:13. That covering has many levels with much gray area where the subject may still be covered while some illuminating light shows through. Therefore even within the circle of faith that surrounds a saint there is likely to be different visions of the saint due to the taste and level of attainment of different disciples. In chapter 42 of Krishna book we find that when Krishna entered the arena he appeared differently to each person or group according to their relationship with Him. Even pure devotees view Krishna differently and may see Him as God, not God, or even more than God according to their taste. Rupa Goswami said that volumes can be written from different levels or viewpoints on every sloka of the Bhagavatam and Mahaprabhu showed this in his conversations with Bhattacharya by explaining one sloka 32 different ways without ever touching the previous explanation. The message here is there are different views of both the spiritual master and Krishna that may be correct on various levels. Spiritual life is one of subjective faith and realization. What one sees due to his attainment another may be unable to see. Thus understanding of scripture and Guru goes on in a relative way according to the various levels of the disciples. And the qualifications and individual attainment of each Guru are also relative although in scripture we are advised to see our Guru as the absolute representative of Krishna. Still a time may come when we may have to even analyze our own Guru or we may have to take the help of another Guru in order to fully understand what our Guru was trying to teach. (Read Sri Guru and His Grace) Krishna and Guru are unlimited and there are unlimited ways to understand them at various levels. Therefore it is best not to demonize those of faith who might present opinions of Krishna and Guru that may be somewhat different than our own. Vision of Guru and Krishna is subjective and not objective. And there is an entire Transcendent Reality that can only be attained by those whose subjective faith and devotion has deemed them qualified to enter. Hare Krishna, BDas

... and I never expected the movement to provide me with an old age pension. -- What, I did?!? A lot of the things that I posted that you considered to be aimed at you missed you completely, for you were standing by my side (figurativly), when I posted, but we were both on the same side and I was talking about others. quote: -- The lady posting this thread feels that there is something wrong with attacking Srila Prabhupada, -- Duh, and what, you don't? No, not at all "Challenge authority!" If you view a challenge as an attack that is your misfortune, but we cannot avoid controversy, and so let us welcome it. It isn't just members of ISKCON who are considering that Srila Prabhupada was just some upstart householder who just happened to be in the right place at the right time, not even stalwart Vaisnvas understand him enough to make comprehensive statements as to the reason and rhyme of his activities. And then there are the most importants, the innocents, the many misfortunate, the devotees you lament about and then there are the children of ISKCON, many of whom consider Srila Prabhupada to be the co-author of their suffering. Claim that he is perfect and beyond fault all that you wish, but unless we are capable of rising to the challenge and issueing far greater than just arguement the best regaurd that some of the innocents will ever have of him was that he was just a delusional old man. So no, I do not believe that there is anything wrong with challenging authority, especially when that authority requires that we answer to that challenge, that we invite it, that we pray to Krsna for it, upon the behalf of his mission which he would even have himself ground up to make grease for the axles of to keep it rolling. You did just that, you challenged the authority if those challenging Srila Prabhupada in your "Debate this". You invited every single person that doesn't like Srila Prabhupada, or who questions his perfection to attack and made it look like you were reday to defend, Hah. That is what you did. Note the resounding response? Why? "Oh, it is just another incarnation of Priestess, who can take her seriously." Jijaji was right,and he was nice about it although just a little criticism and you feel "attacked". You really want to defend Srila Prabhupada? Or is it simply that you cannot see your golden idol tarnished, your blind faith upset to the point that your feelings of certitude are challenged? Do you really want to chase his attackers back under their rocks, your posting doesn't exhibit much capability that you could manage this, or even argue articularly from a philosophical perspective. But even if that were what we needed I still do not see how you, who make such statements as that Srila Prabhupada gave you pure devotion which infers that you consider yourself to be a pure devotee are of any value in defending Srila Prabhupada. If you want to justify his presentation in the eyes of those whose material sufferings and mental turmoil were occaisioned by their birth in or participation in the movement you will have to convince me of your sinserity before I will consider you worth more than the cost of your material components. Show me. I am resonsible for the closing of the VNN forums due to my disnouncements of SNM there for his idiocy and offense. He dared catorgorize Srila Prabhupada as an asslike Vaisnava and refer to some nice devotees as poison occaisioned my ire and causing me to do some srious damage to the soft faith of his disciples and to cause the undecided to reject him. I've kicked Puru's butt and Rocana's too and am pretty much a match for all of the accumulated evil in your entire mission. But unless I find some few of you whose heads aren't firmly up their butts I'm through with helping you. Show me and then let them attack so that we may defend, and justify, the ways of God to men, otherwise go hide your head in shame at your pathetic presentation. quote: -- she is expressing her loyalty and her willingness to defend him, she is in pain. Hari bol -- I am expressing a lot more than that. And my pain comes from the degredation to the lives of Srila Prabhupada's devotees and his mission that occurred through mis-representing the philosophy and mis-applying it. I know where your pain comes from. Do you think that I do not feel it, taste it, share it in sympathy with you, shout out together in outrage, curse like the saltiest sailor against that which occasions it, not only envy, but ignorance. >>>That you foresaw this happening does not make you a cut above.<<<< "Born of the Blood is best, but second best by Initiation." I have an edge, I was born with it, sharpened it, but Srila Prabhupada gave me more. "That it has happened, has not tainted my sraddha, nor has it tainted Srila Prabhuada's sublime transcendental message. A transcendental message cannot be apprehended cognitivly except by pure cognition, or "realization", a spiritualized understanding, a thing that is known not by the hand or by the head but by the soul. From the souls cognition it illumines conceptualization, and then conception is the same, it is spiritualized, and then from the lips it is substance. How many seeds fell upon barren earth, how many creepers were trampled, and how many are like you, like me, like so many others trying still to sprout in this poisonous atmosphere? We are lucky that they attack for what comes after is the opposite of love, it is indifference, it is who cares, it is Krsna consciousness deferred to a time some hundreds of years from now, till a time long after you and your children are all dead, till a time long after the pure devotees that Srila Prabhupada promissed would take birth in our childrens childrens generation have been aborted or born prematurely and hooked on crack, or worse, had to grow up in this society. "How is it that you do not instead of attacking me, take issue with the emnity expressed re/Srila Prabhupada?" As I said many of the things which you took personally were not meant for you, take for instance the explantion of blind faith acceptants who proceding on an emotional impetus lapse into comfortable complacency once they have elevated a generality into a Platonic Absolute. You assumed that that was aimed at you and it may have seemed to be, but their rewards are different than those that you have recieved. They stay in the darkness, you, you by your own admission have transcendental understanding, they never attain it, so you are obviously not in the same category, had you any doubt? I didn't. "You think you think you are being compassionate and magnanimous, but what you are really doing is giving envy credit that it is not due. Jijaji is not envious, and let the envious think that I credit them, it will draw their necks out further, and I flatly refuse to agree with you that all who find fault with Srila Prabhupada are envious. Some are innocent, just angry and upset, someone has certainly let them down, they are right about that. So they aim at Srila Prabhupada their painful cries for help. Who shall answer them? Am I my brother keeper? Debate ME prabhu, prove your assertions that Srila Prabhupada deseminated transcendental knowledge, or as your thread implies through ambiguity that ANY recieved it, or that enough did and to the exstent that it prevented his mission from going to Hell. How is it that he appointed persons like the child rapist murderer Kirtananada to power? Could he not tell that they had no moral fiber let alone position of transcendental knowledge? You are going to have to be up to this if you want to counter the attackers. If your willing then I am too, otherwise we accept what Srila Prabhupada and Jesus both accepted, our master to be crucified and his name reviled "Srila Prabhupada, King of the child molesting movement" Hari bol [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 10-15-2001).]

Dear Valaya I do not much care about the impression that people have of me personally, or of what they think of what I think, unless they are friends, or unless I like them, in which case I care about them and what they think. I have no time for the rest, and if you want my advice then neither should you, unless you are in the mood to accept them as some type of guru. You can learn something from almost anyone, you can learn about them and you can learn about yourself, and you can use that information by adding it to your general store of knowledge to help yourself, to aide you upon your own personal path of perfection. If detachment is difficult for you (as it is for me), then you should accept only what you can handle and limit yourself to open and honest exchanges with like minded individuals for whom you feel some natural sympathy and affection. You could possibly feel that for everyone, but not if you feel challenged by them to defend yourself from their criticisms. When someone finds fault with me I have two ways that I can look at it. If they are in actuality finding a fault that is there I can go "OW!" and just admit to it and accept the consequences, fix myself and move on from there or I can be dishonest and attempt to defend myself against what? Information, which though painful at first can actually benifit me in the long run. The importance of having a living guru, or one thing of importance, is that a living guru can call me on the carpet for my crap, can give me a swift kick in the butt when the boot is required. This is why a lot of people, not necessarily devotees, but members of other spiritual traditions prefer to have their guru's distant or dead. It is the cheating propensity. It is possible to rely on what we, in my tradition refer to as "Inner World Contacts", which I myself do to some extent, but I am only imagining things when I think that I am above recieving important instructions from my day to day interpersonal relationships and life experiences. Srila Prabhupadas mercy is of course not limited to his nominal initiates, but is available to anyone who follows his instructions and seeks of him understanding. As to the "oathbrakers", I am not really that critical of them as I do not consider that most were attained to the realization of what taking such oaths meant, or to the point of conviction that they could actually with whole heartedness take them. For persons not to keep up their owns and still maintain that Srila Prabhupadas mercy is limited only to them and that you can recieve it only through them is of course nonsense. Thank you, Janus prabhu, for your continuing attention to this thread. As I see it, those who would make Srila Prabhupada the all-in-all actually restrict him in their attempt to define/confine His Divine Grace. They seem to believe he is available only to his initiated disciples or through his books, ISKCON, etc. Of course, they cannot imagine the extent of such a great acharya's transcendental activities, but who can? My past, present and future personal relationship with Prabhupada as Sri Guru and with Srimati Radharani as Swamini-Kishori is exactly that-- personal. It's not that others can come between us whatever they may believe their position/role to be. Nor is anyone able to forcibly squeeze my hard-won realizations from the last 30 years out of me, that were painfully obtained through His Divine Grace as the transparent via media. Although the desire to share with all is still strong, I'm realizing more and more how few are actually able to appreciate, let alone reciprocate. Wilful ignorance causes intentional misunderstandings and even politically motivated misinformation. This, in my humble opinion, is the real offense and abuse. Those who wish to glorify must themselves become glorious. "By their fruits you shall know them!" One can't help wondering what Srila Prabhupada must think of some of his `fruits`...in fact, it may very well have been the actions of his initiated `disciples`, particularly those who abandoned their vows, that resulted in his premature departure from this world.

>>>Great message Janus! However methinks we flog a dead horse and leaving is better as one need not disturb any minds with truth for fear of inviting more offense. Those who have not or will not taste are without a hope of understanding.<<< Hope springs eternal. Consciousness is not a passive receptor but an active creator, busy every moment in projecting the art work that is an individualized and hypnotically dreamed of as being the "Real Universe." One f the four conditioned souls defects, the tendency to accept our delusional perspective as the reality of ourselves, rather than a quickly dissapearing opportuinity to gain the immeasureable happiness of life with Krsna in Goloka Vrndavan. Because we are in actuality units of perfection there is always the desire to make ourselves, out material bodies, situations, false egos; perfect and eternal but when we are situated in material consciousness that applications tends us towards an attempt at perfecting that which is not even worthy of sorrow, let alone an of the futile attempt to establish it as our actual selves in place of our far more glorious actual natures. None the less until the exact moment of liberated consciousness in which we experience ourselves as we actually, are we are for all intents and purposes only our own false egos for we have no other identity that we are awake to. We busy about trying to perfect "ourslves" and a good deal of this endeavor goes into acquisition and control. Human beings acting in animal consciousness are territorial, unlike most animals though they have a unique capacity to learn neurosemantic systems (codes:languages). It thus becomes possible for these unique animals to "own" (or think they "own", or control) symbolic territories as well as physical territories. These symbolic territories are usually called "ideologies" or "belief systems." Human beings on the animal platform battle not only over physical territories but over these "mental" or neurosemantic territories. Actual Krsna consciousness is beyond material acquisition which is why Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur said that a devotee and a non-devotee can say the exact same thing but that what the devotee says is always true while that which the non-devotee says is never true, but we do not understand this and think thusly that we can acquire Krsna consciousness by force of arms or by force of our mentalities, by winning arguements with others. It is not however "He who talks the best Krsna consciousness wins", but is rather than the words emanating from the lips of a pure devotee are a condensed stream of Krsna consciousness, spiritual substance, and are transformative, like fire. Hear we have only written words, but they to can be transformative to an extent, whether or not one at the time prefers or prefers to accept what they are reading or not. That is why it is forbidden to read Sankaracharyas commentaries, whether one is in the mood to accept them or not. "What I say three times is true." We don't give up hope so easily. There are no dead horses here, just sleeping souls and it is the will of Sri Caitanya that they should awaken. We have all the inertia of the universe behind us Prabhu, this Kali Yuga is null and void, and its only a matter of time and Lord Nityanandas mercy is upon our heads...they will eventually hear.

What a totally dumb invitation (DEBATE THIS) in the 1st place..! Who would want to come..? Nice trapping method for putting the unbelievers in place.. And when some do come and dissagree they are verbally stoned as DEMONS. MIDDLE AGES MYOPIC MINDSET! BEWARE Jijaji scratches his head, mystified as to why anyone would post in such a manner. People do not in general challenge their beliefs. This is not in accordance with Vaisnava philosophy which requires that we argue strongly against our postulates, and prove them, but it is in accordance with our conditioning. Nietche observed that people do not want challenging questions, that they want comforting explanations instead. Bill Cosby the famous Afro-American comedian perhaps said it better. Commenting upon the same defect, the product again of our conditioning and conditioned defects; he said that parents aren't interested in justice, that they just want quiet. In the Bhagavad Gita it mentions the actual four types of persons that actually approach Krsna, amonst which are the distressed. Quite a few of us were responding to an emotional impetus rather than a pholosophical justification, or a search for truth when we became devotees. We accepted, believing blindly and never challenging our beliefs, even though to do so required that we suspend reason, and accept what we are conditioned to regard as completely preposterous, like four headed Lord Bhrama, swan aeroplanes, devas and demons going into battle astride giant ducks and rabbits, elephants in Hell etc., There was a child like innocence about us then and a complete bewilderment. We toOk a leap of faith, a big one, and we depended upon Krsna and Srila Prabhupada to catch us. That they did not live up to our childish expectations, that the world did not become Krsna Conscious overnight as we all expected it to, and that the movement turned into a theater for abuse has provoked many to become criticizing rather than critical. The ladies post in question is an emotional respose to the crticisms that are coming in from many directions against Srila Prabhupada, and it is thus not articulated very well. Were it then she would have defined her terminology a little better, what for instance she meant by her claim that Srila Prabhupada deseminated transcendental truths, and she would have backed up her assertions with instances and proofs. As it stands I agree with you that to the average persons appraisal that it is just bewilderning and certainly not an invite that most people would even know how to respond to, let alone feel comfortable with. An open invitation to come and fight. Playing the devils advocate in this instance and challenging her claims which are far to ambiguous, poorly defined to respond to, might, as you say; have the effect of demonizing the person doing so to the blind faith believers who are not very familiar with the Krsna conscious method of establishing the absolute truth, which again requires strong arguements against ones own postulate before evidence is even presented. One could start by argueing that ISKCOM evidences clearly that Srila Prabhupada was unable to desiminate any transcendental truths to his closest disciples at least and that the movement as it is right now is continueing evidence of that failure may be included as further arguement against her position. Once a person accepts blindly they do not ever have to trouble themselves again about the things that occaisioned the emotional impetus that propelled them to blind faith certitude. Blind faith certitude fulfills an emotional need. Ignorance is bliss. When I first went into a Krsna temple I required a question to be answered by the ultimate authority of your tradition, before I even sat down and accepted prasadam. The answer to that question was given me directly from the pages of Bhagavad Gita in the manner employed in Bibliomancy, which is asking a question and then opening a Bible to a random page and considering the first thing that you read to be that questions answer. That answer was that Lord Krsna didn't give a damn as to what happened to your material body. Fresh back from Viet Nam I sat down, took prasadam and listened. I never had the expectations that the world would become Krsna conscious over night or that any of Srila Prabhupadas disciples, or at least those around me were liberated, and I never expected the movement to provide me with an old age pension. I expected instead just what has happened, but I expect also more. All isn't darkest yet, but their will be a beautiful dawn. The lady posting this thread feels that there is something wrong with attacking Srila Prabhupada, she is expressing her loyalty and her willingness to defend him, she is in pain. Hari bol

>>>St Paul was under the complete control of God, he was a mahajana, presenting according to time, place and capacity.<<< No, St Paul was not liberated, how many Chritians through employing the model that he offered even attain to a position of tangible spiritual experience while they live? The paradigm, or working model that Srila Prabhupada gave to us gives us glimpses and other tangible experience of the divine within a short time and can provide liberation, while we live within just months of its commencement. A blind person is blind whether he is looking at an apple or an elephant. Through his lack of vision he cannot tell the difference.

but Srila Prabhupada is an eternally liberated soul who presented Krsna consciousness perfectly in accordance with time, place and capacity under the direction of Krsna in response to his pleas to make him dance. -- That is where you are wrong. I do not agree to ISKCON being a transcendental body of a liberated soul. I do not believe he was an eternally liberated soul who revealed Gaudiya Vaisnavism to the ignorant West. That is where you are misunderstanding, I did not say that ISKCON was a transcendental body, only that Srila Prabhupada, under Sri Krsna's direction presented Krsna consciousness perfectly, according to time, place and capacity. You are consideringing that this implies that ISKCON would be perfect, not at all. As far as your consideration that Srila Prabhupada was not liberated, you are speculating, you "do not believe", but you do not know. The origin of your misconception is your observance that Srila Prabhupada behaved like an ordinary man and that he made what were apparently mistakes, etc.. You have some misconception that the loiberated soul is never deluded, and he isn't, but upon the middle platform he appears to be deluded, or delusional, and that he is. The difference is that the spell that a liberated soul is under is that of Krsna's yogamaya, not of Maya. Also the liberated soul upon the middle platform is not aware that he is liberated, this is necessary for presentation, as on the battlefield of Kuruksetra Arjuna, an eternally liberated sould was put into delusion so that the Gita could be spoken for our benefit. We are cautioned repeatedly in the shastra against viewing the Guru with our mundane appraisal. We are cautioned repeatedly because it is our tendency to find fault and apparent faults are always there for our mind to sieze upon. Therefore when we see that the Guru is not always straightforward, that he is even sometimes inclined to accept laxsmi from thieves, etc., we find fault, for he is not then "good" in our eyes, he is not perfect in our esteem. According to time, place and capacity Srila Prabhupada presented Krsna conscious perfectly, whether we recieved it perfectly, you or I or Iskcon, is another matter. "The fault dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves." "Belief" is a position of blind faith ignorance, you are welcome to your beliefs but you should challenge them for your own satisfaction at least, for what satisfaction can you find by finding fault with Srila Prabhupada or any other pure devotee of Krsna? I know that Srila Prabhupada was liberated, I do not "believe". I know because I passed my test and because he awarded me with a degree of liberation and my relationship with him was upon a different level. I have direct cognition that I am eternal, that I am spirit soul, I do not believe, I know. Anyone can achieve this, and beyond, it is not that we are required to practice our faith in blind faith ignorance continually. You can never observe the perfection of a pure devotee from a non-liberated position, just some hint of it. But look for those hints and follow them, you will be surprised at the position that they can lead you to. Hari bol

>>>Satyaraj: Again, I guess you should ask these questions to your Prabhupada. Didn’t he create a sect as many others?<<< No, Srila Prabhupada was under the complete control of Sri Krsna, he was a mahajana, presenting according to time, place and capacity. It may appear by mundane appraisal that Srila Prabhupada created a sect known as ISKCON, that he could not even discern the capacity and capabilities of his appointees for position in that organization, that he was filled with imperfections, that he was a well meaning but poorly informed and supersticious and paranoid old man caught up in a belief system that no one with more than a half of an inch of forhead could take seriously, so it may appear to mundane appraisal, but Srila Prabhupada is an eternally liberated soul who presented Krsna consciousness perfectly in accordance with time, place and capacity under the direction of Krsna in response to his pleas to make him dance. In a dancing contest I do believe that even Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu would be hard put to keep up with Srila Prabhupada. Now we wait only for the touch of fire to act up.

People are people, and the emotional impetus that directs one to become a fundamentalist Moslem, or a fundamentalist Iskcon supporter, Rtvik, etc., may be the same, an emotional need for certitude rather than a philosophical justification, or search for knowledge. To such a "true" believer any suggestion that challenges his or her blind faith position of certitude is met with anger, aggression, denunciation, etc., and any proofs or evidences that might be offered to suggest that they are not in the possession of all of the facts required to make such comprehensive appraisals of others beliefs are treated as if they are cooked, contrived or imagined. You think wrongly if you think that you can reason with them. Reason is not what motivates them. The emotional impetus that occaisions most people to accept a religion is a fear response. Once they accept a blind faith they never have to fear again. The buried doubts that such true believers have make them very uncomfortable should they even attempt to be open minded.

Christianity was founded by Paul, not by Jesus who did not himself found a new religion at all, but who only attempted to play out an accepted role within the context of an already existing religion, Judaism. The Jesus of Pauls creation is a ficticious character, having nothing to do with the real Jesus, who would have found Pauls interpretation of him idolatrous and offensive, as is attested to by the fact that the Nazarene Church, the actual church of Jesus's disciple Peter and Jesus's brother James basicly proclaimed Paul heretical and disowned him. There is considerable evidence that Paul, the mythmaker, who had never met Jesus even once in his life, but who relied instead upon visions; was a manipulative liar who misrepresented not only Jesus but himself also in order to mislead the innocent people into accepting his presentation of Christianity. Srila Prabhupada often refered to Religion in the West, meaning Christianity as Blind Faith and sentiment and Bhaktivinode Thakur referring to Christianity apraised it correctly as "The damned Churches of the World". Pauls version of Christianity allowed slavery and permitted it to function as a tool for the oppression of the masses continually and also served to create anti-Semitism by blaming the Jews and not the Romans for Jesus's execution, changing also the motivation from a political to a religious one, which it wasn't. So for two-thousand years people have been the blind faith participants in a religion started by a proven liar, Paul, who couldn't even read Hebrew btw. Hari bol

That people should accept government of kings has been rejected by pirates and other babarians, but not by all of them. Thus it is no surprise that the chief architect of the Machine Age Sir Francis Bacon, was knighted, even after his quarrel with Queen Elizabeth. Knighthood instills in one a strong desire to champion the rights of the Lady of Soverenity, so even so an internal dissonance is created, productive of disharmony. There are two conflicting versions of reality that we each imbibe in our conditioning, the cut throat capatalism of Adam Smiths economic theory and the values that have come down to us through both the teachings of Christianity and those other elements of our heritages that were transmitted from the Western cultus though estranged from an actual tradition. It is no wonder that so many of us tend then to suffer some mental upset or calamity. It is hard to accept that life for us has a definite beginning and a definite and final end. Thus religion has been allowed to continue to practice it's fraud under the cloak of our auspices, as a personal liberty even though it was rejected long ago by us a a basis for social centricity. This leaves sanity for only those who in awareness are capable of reason and who can soberly progress themselves in accordance with "reality". Such discipline is beyond the scope of those who suffer in their awareness of what in their lives is lacking, even when they are offered a high standard of economic enjoyment and the material benifits that are alien to most of the whole earths human population to whom even a little rat meat along with their rice is viewed as a luxury. Existential pressure makes such luxuries as this writing here on a board in cyber space beyond the reach of most everyone, and only those who exhibit the primier values of the Machine Age, speed, accuracy, etc., and very few of them can be maintained at the standard of life that permits them even the slightest delusion of autonomy. Those familiar with the second laws of thermodynamics will understand the economic theory advanced from an understanding of it's implications. The Sri Isopanisad does not advance that one can over colonize, nor over exploit a closed system. The Right Management of the earth and of the Earths resources and the future of human kind make certain sacrifices necessary. We enjoy rights and priveledges now and think that we are entitilted to them because we share the assumption that history is progressive, and that where we are now represents evolution. The extremists of these ideologies that confront us are particulary austere, they are not of the masses and the masses are not of them by choice. They function however within an economic environment that makes their tenure of short duration. There are howerver a lot of them and thus their eradication may take considerable effort and time and their will be casualties. It took two million years for the earth to gain it's first billion human inhabitants, only thirty years more to double again. What's a million peoples lives matter, I mean between "friends"? What technology has acquired for us cannot be sustained in the mannor that we have it now, not for all of us, not for any of us for we are only molecules in motion with no truely autonomous motive force beyond our symptoms of life, beyond our hope and our hunger. We too are accounted to be machines, bits and pieces, meant for production and consumtion in the service of the Machine Age world view. This is Kali yuga and this is Kali yuga. Understanding it, and then being able to discount it's materialistic world view is half of that which it takes to sit the acharya's chair in the West. Who of you, who of your sons or your daughters will manifest the other half and return to our nobility or to their sons and their daughters Divine appointment? Hiranyakasipu thinks that you'd better and best leave him and his children alone, and here Hiranyakasipu doesn't even believe in the demigods let alone in God and so your threat to him, in his perception is only that you (not you) are able to still exert influence because he simply has not yet considered it of paramount importance to destroy all religion upon a global scale, past it's usefulness to him. That it is an option that he has considered is exhibeted just in experimental incidents such as in Tibets and in the Soviet Union where hundreds of thousands of priests and nuns were raped and slaughtered. Joe Stalin and Mao Tse Tung were children of our same world view. Regarding the autonomous individuals, those types of critters that dispite our acceptance of Vaisnava philosophy we still imagine ourselves to be in our unenlightened consciousness of only our material identities; Joseph Stalin said it best, that the death of an individual was a tragedy while that the deaths of millions was a statistic. That he accepted this as true was demonstrated by that he was very sympathetic to the persons in the movies that he watched who were undergoing tragedies and hardships while all at the same time he was executing millions. Technology has given "us" the power to rule the world and discrimination has given us the understanding of how the world must be ruled, and for whom. "Whom" does not include either me or you for we are not individuals only parts of a statistic, just restless molecules. Moooooooooo. PS. In answer to your question as to whether there is any theological response to terrorism it is this, that there is no explanation given by any theologists that can counter the conditions that create an atmoshphere in which terrorists can freely function and attack us. There is a response, but its basis is derivative from our Machine World View. The conception of human rights that we accept as God given and inalienable has been a luxury that in the very near future will be adjusted by our realizations as many civil liberties are willingly sacrificed for security, and sacrificed permanantly. Those who make such sacrifices will afterwards come under the realization that they have neither, their "just deserts" in the opinion of Benjamin Franklin, or perhps he was just precognitive just internally to dissonant to believe that his talents were somewhat oracular, and to horrified to consider full well it's implications, or to jaded by the Parisian night life. [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 10-06-2001).] [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 10-06-2001).] [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 10-06-2001).]

Adsit Anglis Santus Georgius! The Acharyas, Guru and Shastra all agree that there should be kings, and that these kings should be Divinly appointed. Kings, by the fact that they are kings accept that they are Divinly appointed, or they care not for Divine appointment because they do not believe it, that there is any Devine to appoint them, or any spiritual authority, or any spirit at all. Rational deliberation had convinced us that the metaphyics of the Classicists; of Homer, Plato and Aristotle were empty of works, just plentiful in words. Our vision and view of reality does not suffer from the delusionment that those who expound that they are the representives of Deity have any longer any purpose, no longer in any use to us, and that they indeed, as exhibited by the Fascist face of Islam, as displayed in the likeness of Bin Laden and so many other zealots produced by the fanaticism of ideological zealotry, pose now a threat to all that we have lived for and all that we envision that will in our future be. Because we are still families it is sometimes difficult to not desire that there would be a God, but reason placed such a being as little more than a cosmic watch maker several hundreds of years ago at the exact same moment that they dismissed Him. That there should be kings is never in question by those who are already acting in the manner of kings. That they should be Divinely appointed is a consideration that they cannot allow themselves on account of their knowledge. Unless we have divinely appointed kings howerver we shall still have kings. The difference will be in how they see things, and how they see things now is that all human life is just a matter of little tiny molecules just moving in motion. There is no God in this Civilization. Hmmmm? And we are incapable, as yet, of producing Him. But those who say that there is a God and that they are his representives fit to rule over us, who say to their followings that they are all destined for heaven or paradise still exert by this tactic that was once so useful to us undue influence, even several hundreds of years following the time that their usefullness was at an end. It is difficult to counter this without divine appointment from the psychological perspective, that we admit. Obviously though they do not allow themselves just to fade out into obscurity and from thence to dust but seek to overturn the natural order that we are progressing. They have always been uinheaththy as exhibted by their tendencies to castrate and flagellate themselves to remove the burden of their recognition that that is, in fact as much of their natures as their diseased model would avail them of. A religion without a Goddess is halfway to atheism. There is not however a feminine perspective in even our appraisal of the world. There is only mathmatics. [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 10-06-2001).]

>>>I dont debate idiots and psychos, but a Krsna Copnscious ruler, first and foremost, would "welcome the religious impulse in humankind", as did Srila Prabhupada. A Krsna Conscious ruler would have complete religious freedom in his kingdom, including freedom to be an atheist, because such a person has faith in the process designed by God to reach an individual (guru tattwa). The reason that religious freedom is tolerated by a Krsna Conscious individual is because the person knows that loving God is based on free will and the choice to render service. Any force and coercion applied to another to enforce sectarian belief is known and seen by the sane to be thoroughly against the laws of spiritual love>> Just about three years ago the women in ISKCON were trying to jolt the movement out of it's medeival mentality. At the time (and I know that there still is) there was a backlash against anything like the suggestion that women should be treated with respect and dignity and viewed with equality from within the movement and this backlash included many of the temple presidents and higher authorities. I recall how at the time these men were speaking very freely about their admiration of the Taliban and making suggestion that the Krsna consciousness movement link up with them, as they shared so many views in common, at least by the estimate of these men.

Praise Moonlit Hunter ! When I am your prey Please share my heart With the Lady of the Forest..... That is very beautiful, I love it, but the great God Cernunos has other prey this moon, the priestess of the Great Goddess Cerridwen, Lady Morwyn asked Him to hunt out these terrorists on the last full moon and she offered them their hearts to eat, to ferrit them out wherever they may be and to devour them if He cannot bring them to justice.

Maybe if we ignore it, then it will go away and we can return to our comfortable complacency deferring solution to some future time or to some greater man. What, am I my brothers keeper? How much do we say that we are gifted by and how much that we are dimenished by the coming of and then the going away of the acharyas? What remains of the beloved, some scrap of cloth, some bit of ash floating down upon a wayward wind. How much does our own unrealized potential diminish us, how much the death of those who we love without ever the realization of theirs. Jiv Jago, Jiv Jago prabhus. Awake, arise or be forever fallen. Chant Hare Krsna and awake to your potential, to your eternal reality, blinding with knowledge and powered with Lord Nityanandas mercy. We can change the world, we must, or it will die. Change, and change the world or let it die, it and them.

"There is an old Irish saying that "If you see a two headed pig on the road don't tell anyone." The ability to percieve things differently than others marks one as different." Too funny, too true janus!!! I appreciate your serious depth also. Deep calls unto deep Dasanudas, and laughter asures us of the friendliness of the touch, banishing fear and making easier the sharing of deeper understandings. Every world view or emic reality, the unified field made up of thoughts, feelings, and apparent sense perceptions that organizes our inchoate experience into the meaningful patterns has its architects, those who sketch out the blueprint that they then leave us to fill in and fill up with our own tiny selves alocation of the human form of life, even this one, this predominant consensual world view that we were born into and that governs us, for we are ourselves of it, made into the image, not of God, but of the beast, of the Machine Age whose linear progress is at it's culmination, leaving us with only two outcomes to anticipate in our typical Aristotelian fashion, the end of all things or everlasting world without end. The formula of Kali yuga is simply this: "The total energy content of the universe is constant and the total entropy is continually increasing." Looking back over the illegitimate son of Queen Elizabeth, the recognized founder of America and one of the three chief architects of the Machine Age's world view, we only detect his fear and frustration in the pages of his Novum Organum. We must turn to the pages of his play The Tempest and to his character Prospero the magician to detect his hope. We see through a glass darkly my brother. Out of many, many thousands of men some few may endeavor to attain to perfection. What hubris we had, and how blind.

>>Intelligent question, but the proof of the pudding is in the taste, not the belief. M-dd is right. A person can believe anything, that the earth is flat and that it has four corners and that the sun goes round and round it, that someone has given them Krsna, or that there are elephants in Hell, anything. But when a person confesses to a belief what they are really confessing is that they just do not know, that they just "believe." Belief is not then any position of knowledge but only a dangerous form of ignorance, for a person will often forget, or they have never learned that the mere belief or disbelief in a thing has absolutely no relation as to whether that thing in which they believe is either so or not so. Were they aware of this, that belief is only ignornace then it is hardly likely that we would see people killing others because it is their belief that to do so, that to kill innocent men and women and children earns for them a place in Paradise. Due to our conditioning we are conditioned to regard Krsna Consciusness with the same appraisal as we would the religious traditions that we grew up with, as if Krsna Consciusness depended upon blind faith at the beginning and continual just in order to recieve it's rewards. Krsna Consciousness does not, like the religions we are used to, say however, that we must chant Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare now but defer all hope of heaven to some post-mortem phase of our existence. Surely there are promisses of eternal life with Krsna in Goloka Vrndavan, but Krsna consciousness takes a step further. Krsna Consciousness makes the claim that here, right here in the here and now, even as we live that we can become Krsna conscious, that we can re-establish our eternal transcendental loving relationships with Krsna, and that we can experience the joy of ecstacy, the peace of eternity, and the awakening of the soul to full cognition of itself, even while we live. Faith and belief are different things. Krsna doesn't care so much as to whether we believe in Him as He does whether we want Him to be real. It's nice to know that although we live in this terrible place that somewhere there is a place that is beyond all anxiety and that people live there, perhaps some of those very same people who died in the terrorists attacks on the WTC and the Pentagaon, for there is no doubt that at least some of them recieved the gifts of Krsna prasadam and the Holy Name, and that they too chanted Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare, at least a time or two. We who remain have a grave responsibility, to become Krsna conscious ourselves and to make others Krsna Conscious. Accomplishing this from a position of "belief" is not possible, but from a position of faith, of strong faith, through realized knowledge attained through the mercy of Sri Guru and Gauranga we can make the entire world Krsna conscious and erase this great curse of ignorance posing as knowledge in the form of belief that has killed and will continue to kill our families in the name of God, or in the name of any ideology. "God gave America to be free!" Spoken by a mysterious stranger who inspired many reluctants to sign the Declaration of Independance. We are the sons and daughters of freedom, of liberty, birthed by liberation from our ages old thralldom to birth, death old age and disease, to ignornat superstition, to jealousy, hatred and misery, that is our heritage, the heritage of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's dancing feet and of the name of Krsnas Maha Sankirtana movement. We who are free are called upon to dispense this prime benidiction to humanity, to stop not only all terrorists but to put and end to all terror. Hari bol If someone gives you Krsna, then you know who to listen to ABOUT Krsna, it is that simple. If someone can give you Krsna, that someone knows Krsna. Srila Prabhupada gave us all Krsna. Those of us who have accepted, have also met Krsna, and we therefore know who to listen to to learn more and more about Krsna. Once you taste transcendence, you don't ever have to be fooled again, or depend on any blind faith or mundane belief system. Try accepting Krsna's causeless mercy, you also can taste the pudding and all your doubts(material dellusion) will dissipate, as mine did long ago. Hope this helps, M-d.d.

With the revelation today that twenty-seven persins tied to terrorist groups were trying to get licences to get HAZMAT licenses this may not come as a shock to you that the terrorists intend to strike again and that unless they are stopped millions will die. The Pacific Rim and Los Angeles, the site of Wells Fargo and more banking than the East Coast will be struck by a terrorist releasing Ebola virus according to the vision of a Priestess of Cerridwen that was allowed to her by the Great Goddess in Her cauldron. The cauldron turned to bubbling blood and then someone poured a vial into it which turned the cauldron seething with maggots, Then she saw with a birds eye view four men seated in darkness around a campfire. One of the men exchanged something with another of the men and then the vision shited places to downtown L.A. where the man who had recieved the vial opened it. Ebola kills within 24 hours, turning the body into a bloody mush. Saddam had tons of this and it is very easy to smuggle. We need your help to prevent this. Please focus all of your energy, your anger at the terrorists to us this Sunday night. We plan to work Magick to expose these terorists and to stop them whether we have any help or not but there are only a few of us and we need all the energy that you can spare to help us, so whether you believe in Magick or not, if you'd like to get these bastards before they can strike again just send us whatever energy or anger you can spare and we will pattern focus and direct it against them. Thank you. Hare Krsna

The people require education, Start by refuting Lockes postulate for his social theory, that "God" is by definition unknowable, and that thus He can form no basis for social centrality and then you will have little trouble defeating Smiths economic theory. The second law of thermodynamics though with require actual development of the ability to upscale subatomic indetermanacies to corporeal manifestation. This is only a minor development od the sidhes and shouldn't be that hard for devotees to accomplish, at least not theorectically. Hari bol

P.S. The anthropologist Max Gluckman, once remarked that "a science is any discipline in which the fool of this generation can go beyond the point reached by the genius of the last generation." This explains quite nicely how it is that explanation of the four defects of the living entities in Srila Prabhupadas books are in seed form, not very detailed but yet here is a fool elaborating upon them beyond the point of his genius. One is always a fool before his spiritual master, but it is also the duty always of a disciple to further elaborate, to prove and to explain the science of Krsna consciousness, and as you say, for that purpose Guru's mercy is given. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Hari bol