Nrsinghadev

Q. How do you know for certain that human beings were apes and gradually learned to walk straight up, create fire, hunt, cook etc., and that that is how human civilization started?

Is it because they teach this in schools based on some scattered and convenient evidence, whilst sweeping inconvenient evidence under the rug? Try to get a copy of Forbidden Archeology and Human Devolution, that should satisfy your questions regarding this subject. Something is not true just because it is accepted by the ruling scholarly party.

Q. Why do you speak of hindu "mythology"? Is it all just a fairytale to you?

Didn't Prabhupada say people can't meditate well in this age?

 

In this age millions are meditating in Buddhism & TM. How do the numbers of hare krishnas compare?

 

And if I'm not mistaken...meditation and yoga are recommended in the Bhagavat for THIS age.

 

Millions are meditating....well, millions and billions are trying to become millionaires, but how many of them actually become millionaires?

Numbers tell us nothing. If out of a million, one may achieve actually something in meditation, I think it's fair to say that people can't meditate well in this age.

 

 

Hare Krishna Tantrayoga,

please accept my obeisances, I would say humble obeisances, but I am such a proud fool that by saying humble obeisances I would feel like a hypocrite. Thank kindly you for your reply, by doing so you have engaged me in writing about guru, Krishna and Vaishnavas. As a result of engaging me in writing about them, I find great happiness and satisfaction. Otherwise I may have engaged myself in useless trifles, so you see how I can't take your post as offensive.

I in turn, hope you are not offended by the way I have chosen to respond to your reply, which is by breaking it up into quotes of written pieces I thought were necessary to respond to. So here we go:

In general, as per the Gaudiya perspective, I agree mostly with what you have said.

In my system, I follow a culmination of Bhakti, and ancient Vedic mantra and tantra practices that are faster as far as results are concerned.

 

I don't know of any process that is explained in the Vedas as being faster than the chanting of the maha mantra, unless of course you are implying that the "ancient Vedic mantra" is in fact the maha mantra. Of course, Vedic mantras are eternal so in that sense what is ancient? Anyway, faster indicates superior, and shastra have defined the maha mantra as being the superior mantra. So in this way, a Vedic mantra other than the maha mantra cannot be superior to the maha mantra.

 

 

Nice question Shivam prabhu.

When you are chanting Hare Krishna, the mantra is meant for Radha and Krishna, no matter who you are sitting in front of, so there should be no difference in result. I do suppose that if you sit in front of Radha and Krishna, it will greatly benefit your chanting of the maha mantra, as having their direct darshan will obviously help you in your meditation on the Divine Couple.

So maybe you mean that one who is sitting in front of Lord Shiva praising Him, in the understanding that He is the best devotee of Lord Krishna, if that will then no doubt please Krishna more then directly praising Him? I think so, because you are praising Shiva as a devotee of Krishna, and like you said, Krishna is more pleased when you praise His devotee.

Many of Lord Siva's pastimes in conjunction with Krishna are very endearing in my opinion. I happily remember them and praise Sivaji in His manifestation of Gopisvara Mahadeva daily.

I hope the answer was of any use to you prabhu,

Hare Krishna

I've noticed some of you can't approach Sivarama's arguement directly so you have begun a campaign of "guilt by associatrion", in your minds, by linking him up with NM. How cheap.

 

Actually, that was the worst thing that I've read in this thread. That someone is taking association of Narayana Maharaj as an example for being an "evil" and bad thing which would turn Sivarama Maharaj into a bogus preacher. They obviously have no idea who is a pure devotee of the Lord and who's not. It's one thing to not feel any attraction for him, but to use his name in this way, that's really a sign of anti-devotional poison running through the veins.

Very disgusting indeed. As I was reading it I was cringing in disgust. Nowadays the greedy companies are unnecessarily contaminating almost all products just for the sake of a few more dollars. Even the vegan is not automatically safe anymore. What a time we are living in!

Are Our Fruits and Vegetables Vegan?

 

You might say to yourself, “Well, that’s a silly question, of course they are vegan. Fruits and vegetables contain no animal ingredients, they weren't processed using animals and they aren't tested on animals.” With the above definition, let’s take a look at this question. If you just stop and think about fruits and vegetables, they are vegan. But if you dig a little deeper, you might find a different answer. Enter the genetic manipulation of our food supply and conventional farming.

 

I contend that if a fruit or vegetable is not certified organic then there is a very good chance that it is actually not vegan at all. It may contain, be processed with, and/or be tested on animals. With the genetic alteration of our foods, many of our fruits, vegetables, legumes, and processed foods contain genetic material from animals. By genetic alteration (also known as biotechnology, genetic engineering, genetically modified), I mean that genes from one organism are extracted and inserted into the cells of another organism in the laboratory. For example, tomatoes have been engineered with a gene found in the blood of flounders. This gene is responsible for keeping a flounder from freezing in the ice-cold waters in which it lives. The modification is made to create tomatoes that will grow in the cold of winter without freezing. Another not-so appetizing example is lettuce engineered with genes from rats to “enhance” its taste. Not only is genetic engineering prevalent in the manipulation of crops, but is also widely used in the dairy industry. The genetically engineered bovine growth hormone (rBGH) is used to increase production of milk in dairy cows. This hormone greatly increases the risk of mastitis in cows, which forces dairymen to increase the use of antibiotics. Milk produced from a cow treated with rBGH contains thousands of puss cells per drop of milk and can also contain the cow’s blood. This genetically engineered hormone also contains an element that greatly increases the consumer’s risk of certain kinds of cancer. And, due to the increased use of antibiotics on cows injected with rBGH, many scientists believe that antibiotic resistance in these consumers increases as well. Not only is rBGH unhealthy for the consumer, but because of a cow’s increased tendency to contract mastitis, it is very painful and inhumane to the animal.

 

Let’s return to the production of our fruits and vegetables using conventional farming practices, that use certain kinds of fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides, and genetically engineered seeds. Most fertilizer used on crops today contains animal manure. Much of this manure, sold by the livestock, poultry, dairy, and pork industries, is collected from the floors of large factory farms where animals are kept in strict confinement. These animals walk in and breathe fumes from their own excrement for days prior to the manure being sold to the conventional farmer. Then it is used to grow conventional fruits and vegetables. Many farmers spray herbicides and pesticides, also known as agro-chemicals, on conventional crops in order to kill off those nasty weeds and insects that keep the farmer from growing “healthy” crops. In many cases, the targeted insects are consumed by birds and other predators and can cause the predators to become ill or even die. The residue from agro-chemicals is found on most fruits and vegetables that we consume as well. These chemicals greatly increase the risk of illness and disease for farm workers. Pesticides and herbicides also seep into the soil, killing millions of beneficial microbes and bacteria, as well as non-targeted insects in the soil. In addition, conventional farming is one of the largest contributors to the loss of 75% of topsoil in the United States. And let’s not forget that these chemicals end up in the water we drink and again increase our risk of illness and disease.

 

In short, the production of conventional food crops uses a product that kills animals and insects, and seriously affects the health and well-being of the consumer and the environment. But you say, “With genetically engineered seed, farmers won't have to use these toxic chemicals.” According to recent studies, farmers have actually increased their use of herbicides and pesticides. Most of the products created through biotechnology are crops that work in conjunction with the chemicals sprayed on the crops. The same corporation that provides the agro-chemicals also provides the genetically engineered seed that works with the chemicals. For example, Monsanto produces the product Roundup as well as Roundup-Ready seeds. Another genetic engineering development is Bt crops, crops that contain the naturally occurring insecticide, Bt, used as a last resort by organic farmers. So, instead of being sprayed by the chemical, every cell in the plant now contains the chemical. Pesticide residue is no longer a problem because now the pesticide is contained in the plant itself. Researchers are concerned that insects will become resistant to Bt, making it useless to the organic farmer. Researchers have also shown that these new biotech crops destroy beneficial insects, such as the monarch butterfly and earth worms and may have unforeseeable consequences to human health as well. But are these foods actually tested on animals? Yes! Many genetically engineered foods are tested on animals to determine their impact on human health and the environment. Despite what the biotech industry tells us, the process of genetic engineering is still imprecise. The technique of inserting a new gene into a host organism is not very precise at all.

 

So, the industry turns to testing these novel foods on animals, although animal testing is not required by law yet. In many cases there are surprising, unforeseen results, frequently detrimental to the test animals involved. And in many cases the animals are subjected to deliberately induced and unanticipated suffering in order to test these manipulated foods. Being vegan is a learning experience. The more you learn, the more aware you become. I invite you to become aware of the issue of genetically modified foods. Read up on the current research about genetically modified foods and become educated on the issue. Then think about what I have presented here and determine for yourself whether or not you think these foods are vegan.

 

Patrick West

 

Chairman, Natural Law Party of Colorado. Patrick has been a vegan for over three years and a vegetarian for five years. He is the State Chairman of the Natural Law Party of Colorado, is working for the labeling of genetically engineered foods at state and national levels, is working for campaign finance reform in Colorado, is a member of the Alternative Party Coalition of Colorado, and is also a member of HEALTH.

Of course that it now happens to ghee is especially bad, because ghee is an essential ingredient in all vedic rituals, so one can be a devotee on a vegan diet but still there will have to be ghee if one performs puja. Unless one gives up his job and goes to live in a selfsupplying ashram somewhere on the edge of the Brazilian rainforest, such as the gour vrindavan community http://www.goura.com.br/ing_INDEX.HTM , we can never completely avoid the trampling of our established ideals. Better just ask Krishna to forgive all of these sort of unfortunate shortcomings that are particular to the age of Kali and perform bhajana to Sri Sri Radha Krishna to the best of our abilities.

Hare Krishna Tantrayoga,

first of all I would like to thank you for your civilized response to my critique of atanu's message, though I feel it didn't warrant such a civilized response as it was written quite harshly and in the heat of the moment. So again thank you for that. I shall now attempt to comment on your reply in an equally civilized fashion, I hope you will appreciate it:

Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada, Parampara And Vaishnava Aparadha

How can disciples of Bhaktivedanta Swami ever hail him too high? For a disciple, no praise is high enough for their guru. This sort of glorification is perfectly in accordance with the Vedic injunctions.

As far as ultimate authority goes; well if you are familiar with the guru parampara system, you will understand that the knowledge Bhaktivedanta Swami has given the world was not invented by him, it was passed on to him by his guru and so on and so on until we reach the ultimate authority, first in the form of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, who is Krishna Himself, and from Mahaprabhu the parampara goes back again to Krishna. So I think it's fair to say that the knowledge he has given us on spiritual life has sprouted from the ultimate authority, and is therefore the ultimate authority. But that does not mean that Bhaktivedanta Swami is the only ultimate authority. Other bonafide guru's in the Gaudiya line are equally possessed of this ultimate authority, and we will find that each complements the other in some way. When there is an apparent contradiction, it only serves to increase Bhakti to Sri Sri Radha Krishna. A bonafide disciple will understand why there may be apparent discrepancies in the various different bonafide Gaudiya acharaya's teachings. The guru parampara most definitely does not stop with Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, that much I agree with. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Goswami Prabhupada, Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's guru, had so many exceptionally qualified disciples, and their lines are continuing to give us Mahaprabhu's message to this day in an unadulterated fashion.

So in conclusion of this subject, if anyone criticizes Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada on shastric conclusions, he is ultimately criticizing Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Who is Sri Krishna Himself, Who Has come to inaugurate this divine yuga dharma of Harinam Samkirtan. Please realize in this scope how silly criticism on the Vaishnava acharya's from unauthorative sources (such as the ones in this topic) sounds.

It is not a "brushing off" when notifying a criticaster of his committing Vaishnava aparadha, but rather it is a helping hand. The Vedic scriptures give us ample examples of how dangerously destructive to ones spiritual life (and material life even) it is to commit Vaishnava aparadha, a prime example being the aparadha caused by Durvasa muni to the Vaishnava Ambarish maharaj. These examples are not given as jolly entertainment, they are grave warnings for spiritual practitioners not to commit offenses, and especially not to the Vaishnavas. So yes, such posts are indeed poisonous and offensive, and indeed they are non-authorative as thusfar the authors of these comments are simply using their own furtile imagination to come up with interpretations without properly backing it up by quoting from Vedic literature and accompanying authories on the subjects. So how to accept anything they say any other way then non-authorative? Those who are envious of Lord Krishna will never understand His position (B.G.9.1), therefore they can never give the proper purport of the Gita.

Everything Prabhupada has been teaching on Sanatana Dharma has it's origin in the established parampara. You can check and crosscheck with any Vaishnava authority coming from the line of Mahaprabhu and find there is no distortion in the teachings. At best some trivial aspects of rituals may have been adapted according to time and circumstance but that's it. There is no question about it: a nondevotee cannot translate and present the Bhagavad Gita as it is.

Please also bear in mind that the type of preaching was done according to time and circumstance. When Bhaktivedanta Swami came to the west the hippie movement was thriving. Needless to say, due to the abundant use of drugs and unrestricted sex, his target audience was in a state of gross ignorance. Strong and clear words had to be used, and by doing so he was cutting out a clear path to Krishna. If he had been even slightly ambiguous in his approach, how do you think he would have been able to convey the message of Krishna to a crowd completely unfamiliar with Vedic knowledge? Strong words were required to clear away the weeds that were obstructing the bhakti-lata-bija, or seed of the creeper of devotion, from sprouting.

Bhagavad Gita, Paths of Yoga And "Demigods"

As far as the Bhagavad gita goes, it is basically the whole Vedic knowledge contained in a nutshell, so naturally many different processes of attaining the Supreme have been addressed in this most beautiful song. In the Gita, Krishna gradually explains the various paths of yoga, and it, as you may have noticed, culminates in Bhakti yoga, the highest form of yoga. Those who follow other paths of yoga are only able to attain the Supreme by at least some use of Bhakti at a certain point in their sadhana. Bhakti is the only yoga that does not require any other path of yoga to assist it, it is self sufficient. Also, if a person is meditating on the impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord, it naturally follows that he does not go to the same destination as the person meditating on the Lord's personal feature.

Do note that nobody in the Gaudiya Vaishnava line is rejecting these other yogic paths, or is labelling them as not bonafide. The paths are absolutely bonafide but they are not the recommended path for this age of Kali. In Kali yuga, the recommended path is to perform Harinam Sankirtan as inaugurated by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as predicted by the Vedic Literature:

"Harer nama Harer nama Harer namaiva kevalam kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha"

"In this age of Kali, the only way of deliverance is by chanting the names of the Lord, chanting the names of the Lord, chanting the names of the Lord. There is no other way, no other way, no other way."

(Brhan-naradiya Purana 38.126)

So ask yourself: if an elevator is readily available to take you to the top, why would you bother taking the stairs instead? Is that not foolishness? So you can see why it is really not necessary for a devotee to first undergo all these laborious processes before he can come to Bhakti yoga. Rather, the guru has spread the bed for us and all we need to do is dive in, dive into the process of Bhakti yoga. No need to practice any other path of yoga. All will be revealed by practicing bhakti, no need to follow other branches seperately. This is why Gaudiya Vaishnavism doesn't focus on them. The mundane example may be given that the one who focusses utterly and completely on his cherished target is sooner to achieve it then the one who is focussing on a variety of subjects. Our sadhana entails one-pointed devotion towards Supreme Lord Sri Krishna. By doing so, all other processes will be fulfilled, just as by watering the root of a tree, the whole tree will be nourished. By singleminded devotion, one vastly accelerates the establishing of his relationship with his istha-deva, and this is wanted. This kind of directness only accelerates the process. I hope you understand.

Furthermore, Arjuna, Krishna's eternal close friend who plays the role of an unknowing Kshatriya in this playful pastime of Sri Krishna, is not actually a seasoned yogi as you put it and as such he complains about these paths to Krishna as follows (B.G.6.33): "O Madhu-sudana, the system of yoga which you have just described appears impractical and unendurable to me, for the mind is restless and unsteady." And in B.G. 6.34 he says that "to control the mind is more difficult than controlling the wind ."

So therefore, when Krishna recommends going to a clean place, and put some kusha grass and deerskin there for the practice of yoga, it is basically totally irrelevant to reaching one's goal, especially now that we're in the age of Kali. Where will you find this place and how much trouble will it cost you to get there, stay there and do your sadhana? The process of this age is Harinam Samkirtan, so why would Prabhupada go in depth on this subject matter? He has come to preach the recommended process of the age, which is easier, superior, and can be practiced at any time, anywhere, so why would he branch off unto these subject matters?

I understand that you, like many others have a problem with the word "demigod". It seems that it is often interpreted as a derogatory title. I have read another gita in the Gaudiya line which translates it as "celestial deity". Many try to push forward the notion that there is no such thing as a demigod, or celestial deity and that it was invented by Prabhupada to put them down. But this is a gross misunderstanding. Concerning Sivaji, Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada had nothing but the highest respect for Lord Shiva, this is evident from all his purports. How else could he? Lord Shiva is the greatest Vaishnava! Again, Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada uses the word demigod to clearly distinguish between Bhagavan Sri Krishna and all His other manifestations. This is done to first of all make people understand that Krishna, before any other manifestation, is the ultimate source of all sources. "Ete camsa-kalah pumsah Krishnas tu Bhagavan Svayam" (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.3.28)

Furthermore, Krishna Himself confirms the existence and worship of other gods in the verse B.G. 9.23, and he deems it as follows: "Whatever a man may sacrifice to other gods, O son of Kunti, is really meant for me alone, but it is offered without true understanding(or against the shastric injunctions)." So it is clear from this verse that Krishna does not recommend worship of the demigods, but if anyone is determined to do it, He will give them the intelligence to go to them anyway.

Moreover in Gita verse 25 of the same chapter we find that those who worship those demigods, or celestial deities as you like, will go to the planets of those demigods. And again, in Bhagavad-gita chapter 10 verse 2 we find confirmation that there is a distinction between Krishna and all other manifestations, as Krishna says: "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for, in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages." So let there be no doubt that there are indeed such beings as demigods, and that they are not equal to Krishna.

Lord Siva

Who praises who doesn't really say much. These are all simply cordial and ethical matters. Sometimes an advanced devotee may be seen to give big praise to a neophyte devotee while putting himself down. Does this mean that the neophyte has become higher than the advanced devotee? In the Bhagavatam, sometimes sages are addressed as Bhagavan. Krishna praises Siva and Siva praises Krishna, all according to Vedic etiquette. In the bhagavatam (canto 8.7), the prajapati's are praying to Lord Siva, addressing Him as the Supreme controller, Bhagavan etc. in order to please him so he will drink the poison that arose from churning the milkocean. Krishna is always more than happy to put His devotees in the spotlight, just as He had put Arjuna in the spotlight on the battlefield of Kurukshetra.

In canto 8.9 of the Bhagavatam, we find the wonderful and endearing pastime of Lord Siva getting bewildered by Lord Vishnu's manifestation of Mohini Murti. Siva's wive is Durgadevi who controls maya, so the position of Sivaji is that he will never get bewildered, and definitely not by any female shape. Yet, Vishnu, by persistence of Siva's wanting to see Mohini murti, manages to bewilder Lord Siva. The purport and sheer beauty of this pastime is found in S.B.8.12.36-44, where Lord Siva is not ashamed of being manipulated by Mohini murti, which in turn pleased Lord vishnu greatly, praising Him. In verse 43 of the chapter, Lord Shiva addresses his wife as follows:

"Lord Siva said: O Goddess, you have now seen the illusory energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the unborn master of everyone. Although I am one of the principal expansions of His Lordship, even I was illusioned by His energy. What then is to be said of others, who are fully dependent on Maya?"

Lord Siva is definitely not a "mere demigod" as we can see from this verse, but neither is He fully on par with Krishna. Sometimes He is classified as demigod though when addressing His feature as the Siva who is presiding over the guna of tama. He is certainly bhagavan. He is nondifferent from Krishna, but at the same time He is different. This is acintyabhedabheda tattva. Simultaneously one and different. Indeed the yogurt turning to curd example applies here. I could recommend the book "Siva Tattva" by HDG Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, which briefs the reader with a clear and beautiful summary elucidation of this complex Tattva. A small quote:

"We honor Lord Siva as a great Vaishnava and as guru. We do not worship him separately. We observe Siva-ratri, Lord Siva's appearance day, and we glorify him in connection to his relationship with Sri Krishna. Srila Sanatana Goswami has written in his Hari-bhakti-vilasa that all Vaisnavas should observe Siva-caturdasi. Lord Siva, in whom all good qualities reside, should certainly be honoured by the observance of this day.

We offer obeisance to Lord Siva with prayers like this:

"O gatekeeper of Vrndavana! O Some, all glories to you! O you whose forehead is decorated with the moon, and who is worshipable by the sages headed by Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana and Narada! O Gopisvara! Desiring that you bestow upon me the prema for the lotusfeet of Sri Sri Radha-Madhava, who perform joyous pastimes in Vraja-dhama, I offer my obeisances unto you time and again.""

Gopishvara Mahadeva Ki Jay!

Arjuna's Vision And The Ultimate Understanding

You state that Arjuna's vision of Krisnna's universal form which was granted to him by Krishna, is the final understanding. But the conclusion of the Gita is that Bhakti to Sri Krishna is the final understanding. So how can Arjuna's observing Krishna's universal form be final? Arjuna was frightened of it and begged Krishna to remove it(B.G.11.45), is this the final understanding of Krishna? If it is final, then why does Arjuna only become at peace again after Krishna restores Himself to His original two-handed form (B.G.11.51)? Krishna Himself reveals to Arjuna (B.G.10.42) before He reveals His universal form that: "But what need is there Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With but a single fragment of Me I pervade and support this entire universe." In other words pure Bhakti unto the lotusfeet of Sri Krishna is superior to all other activities. This is confirmed by Krishna in the next chapter where Krishna confirms in (B.G.12.2) that unalloyed Bhakti unto Him is better than the any other form of worship. He then wonderfully proceeds to go down step by step to give advice to those who cannot perform at such high standards of worship, because nobody is excluded. From each position one can worship Krishna, according to his capacity. The ultimate conclusion of the Gita and it's ultimate understanding is found in chapter 18.65-66 where Krishna says:

"Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear."

Bhagavad-gita cannot be understood by any means other than Bhakti unto the lotusfeet of Sri Krishna. It is not that all we do is read, our process is very practical. We have a very regulated lifestyle with all sorts of practical engagements, the most important one being the chanting of the maha mantra. We can implement it into every aspect of our daily lives. Even doing the dishes becomes Bhakti because we're doing it to please Krishna. In this way we will reach the highest attainable goal Sri Sri Radha Krishna, Who cannot be attained by any other means. Realization comes through the grace of Guru and Gauranga, or in other words, realization is solely handed to you by Krishna. It cannot be attained by your own endeavours, no matter how hard you study or practice. Other than by His grace, God and His tattva can never be understood.

No Rejection

Now even I, a lowly aspiring bhakta, do not "reject" anything from the Vedic pantheon, it all serves a purpose, as there are different needs for different people, so the Lord caters to these needs. So what to speak of advanced devotees on this path? That said, I am fully convinced that the Brahma-Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya's philosophy is the ultimate conclusion to the whole Vedic knowledge. Lastly, at the end I can't help but read that you have somehow concluded that our method of sadhana is not according to Vedic injunctions. To that I can only say: rejecting the Gaudiya sampradaya as being "unvedic", means rejecting Mahaprabhu, which means rejecting Krishna, which in turn means rejecting the Vedas, which means you are rejecting the foundation of your own path. Please don't reject this.

Any mistakes in this reply are solely due to my own gross ignorance, please forgive me for that.

Sincerely yours,

Haribol!

I think you misunderstood what I said.

 

Acceptance of the message in both cases is purely volountary. There is no external force blocking us from accepting God or pushing us to surrender our heart to Him. Thus the atheists are merely presenting a choice in this situation, just like the preachers of the Holy Name.

You are right, but it can be argued that since this new wave of atheism, on top of the already existing atheistic educational foundation that is being preached on schools for decades, is now even more firmly rooted by dint of it being widely accepted by prominent professors among colleges and universities, and taught there as being truth.

In this way they have for quite some time been effectively wiping out God consciousness among the scholarly- and thus leading section of society.

Sure it's all part of the karmic chain of events, and acceptance of God is most definitely not dependent on any loudmouthed atheist who claims to be of superior intelligence, but still as aspiring devotees, we should not sit idly by and not be worried or concerned about the increasing lack of God consciousness amongst intelligentsia around the world, because if the teacher by teaching makes you forget your constitutional position, he is not doing you a very good service. We are no Prahlada maharaja mind you, so students are bound to be heavily influenced by what they learn in school.

We are all currently witness to a society of Godless leaders, and since the only real beneficial attainment a human being can achieve in his short lifespan is God consciousness, quite frankly things are looking more and more hopeless, with the ever increasing depth in the field of material science adding to our confused state of being, piling up more and more dust upon the already covered shining of our souls inside of us.

Thus the atheists are merely presenting a choice in this situation, just like the preachers of the Holy Name.

A "choice" that like Murali prabhu said (using much better and more condensed phrasing) is spoonfed to students in most schools nowdays. The tables are turned now. Only a few hundred years ago, people had no choice in schools but to hear theistic teachings, and now students have no choice but to hear atheistic teachings. Of course like Prahlada Maharaja, a pure soul, or a sattvic person will still be able to have all these teachings go in the left ear and out the right whilst maintaining his focus on God, but most will become even more ignorant of God's existence. All this of course, is also part of the karmic cycle of events, but we should not therefore become complacent, but instead try to the best of our capabilities to shine some light in those dark places.

Just my two cents.

Hare Krishna

Whenever I read something like this, I always think of these verses from the Gita:

BG 16.7: Those who are demoniac do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done. Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them.

BG 16.8: They say that this world is unreal, with no foundation, no God in control. They say it is produced of sex desire and has no cause other than lust.

BG 16.9: Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world.

BG 16.10: Taking shelter of insatiable lust and absorbed in the conceit of pride and false prestige, the demoniac, thus illusioned, are always sworn to unclean work, attracted by the impermanent.

"i beg ur pardon...verybody who has common sense knws tht this quote was mistranslated by ur benevolent acharya for justifying his philosophy of godism"

Well I beg your pardon sir, but who made you the authority on this subject? I can't help but gag and roll my eyes when someone with his own personal agenda comes here to "correct" established acharayas as if they where the very authorities acharya's report to.

mat-param, Prabhupada translates it as subordinate to Me.

 

mat param means superior to me...ne1 knws tht...i dont knw how exactly the word param became subordinate...ne1 with common sense knws param means superior or supreme...it doesnt mean subordinate...check out as to who is the real bogus preacher

Here aditya "prabhu" starts to offend and belittle Prabhupada, daring even to call him a bogus preacher and lacking common sense.

Besides commiting the grossest form of Vaishnava aparadha the awkward results of which even Lord Vishnu Himself ,Lord Brahma and Lord Shiva can't free him from, by displaying this attitude he blatantly reveals his true level of spiritual realization, and thereby his utter lack of authority on the matter.

the exact trnslation is

now i shall explain that which is to be known realizing which the nectar of immortality is attained ,that reality as having me as the supreme beyond effect and designated as brahman the ultimate truth

i wonder where these people get these wierd translations from..i mean where exactly is the word SUBORDINATE given in the text...and yet these people shamelessly yell till the skies tht their translation is AS IT IS!!!

And I wonder wherefrom people get the audacity to challenge, attempt to correct and insult the words of pure Vaishnavas instead. The exact translation and purport of any verse in the gita can only be given by Krishna or the pure devotee of Krishna. It cannot be explained by an advaitist, scholar, or whatever follower of any other path. Therefore it is rightfully labelled "as it is". Just like a fish can't operate on land, so also unless one is devoted to Krishna one will be unable to comprehend the true purport of His words. In other words, Prabhupada's translation is just perfect and "AS IT IS" and yours is the bogus one even though by any scholarly approach it may not seem to be so.

The Bhagavad Gita and the Bhagavatam clearly establishes Krishna as Supreme Personality of Godhead. If anyone draws a different conclusion he must be understood to be either thoroughly illusioned or on a mission of the Lord to spread confusion in His name, like Lord Shiva did as Shankaracharya.

Now Aditya or Atanu, your posts are highly offensive and poisonous, so I would like to implore that you from this point on refrain from writing this type of commentation and beg forgivesness for your offenses from Srila Prabhupada and thereby salvage your spiritual growth. Don't be shy, Vaishnava's are very merciful and forgiving.

Thank you.

Tell 'em it's because men were made in the image of God.

The way I see it, it would be better for you to contemplate why the posting of your very long initial response went wrong.

If your faith in the existence of God is diminished by reading this sort of scientific stool, it is not proof against the existence of God, rather it is proof of your dwindling faith. Better to find the cause behind that.

Science is playing a bit of bluffpoker and immediately you are folding. Tell me what has science done to make us really happy?

Recently, a professor Gene Cooperman employed a supercomputer to calculate how many rotations it took to solve a Rubik's Cube. So they have all this material knowledge but they haven't a clue of how to put it to good use. They're basically just boys with toys. Think about it.

Haribol!

I agree with theist for once. No use speculating on what we cannot comprehend with our tiny brains. Other than that, even here in the material world we are eternally living in the now. The future does not exist and the past is a memory. Time travels with the now.

Hare Krishna,

Lord Kalki will appear 427000 years from our current timeperiod, so there is plenty of time for the world's civilization to be destroyed several times. Just see how much war and disease there has been in the limited timeframe of our written history and it's not hard to imagine what kind of destruction the future might bring. And if not by war, external things such as natural disasters and meteorstrikes are well capable of destroying civilization as we know it, throwing us back to the stone age.

If you read on about the predicition of Kalki in the Bhagavatam, you will also find the passage which says that people will lose memory, physical strength and duration of life day by day. In the end, people will become like asses, so at that time there will be no such thing as scientific advancement.

On a sidenote, there are alot of bogus claims going about on this messageboard claiming that Kalki is already here, or that he was Jesus or Mohammed, but it would be best to neglect this sort of nonsensical speculation and just accept the timeframe given by the Bhagavatam, which is that Kali Yuga started roughly 5000 years ago and that it will take 432.000 years before we're going into Sattya Yuga again.

Hope it helps,

Haribol!

The very existance of this topic, along with it's ongoing debate, is a testimony to the need of a physically present spiritual master.

Hare Krishna,

it seems from your original post that you have developed some attachment for that job and environment. I'm not implying that you don't already see it like this, but looking at it from a spiritual angle, you could perceive this occurrence as Lord Krishna's grace, in the sense that by His mercy the ties that kept you bound to that particular material environment are being cut. As long as maya lulls us into a false sense of security, there will arise no sense of urgency regarding taking up devotional service, I can speak of experience.

Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada tells us that "The principle of life should be to decrease the degree of material intoxication which leads one to be more and more illusioned about the aim of life."

Haribol!

P.S.: could you tell me where this shop is located, because, though most likely a coincidence, my favorite organic-food store recently started to sell meat aswell, which disappointed me alot.

Typically, vanaprasthas moved into the forest (as the name suggests) not far from their home village. They would build a small ashram, grew and wildcrafted their food, sometimes getting help from the locals (including relatives). Sannyasa is only for the brahmanas - they are the only ones who go through all 4 ashrams. Kshatriyas finish their lives as vanaprasthas (3 ashrams), vaishyas never leave home (2 ashrams) and sudras are just householders (1 ashram).

 

I seem to vaguely remember a story of one such ashrama, where people used to wonder how it was that the person living there never got attacked by wild animals, since apparently the forest was full of tigers at that time. But the person always put a bowl of milk outside of the ashrama and would even call the tigers(!). The tigers would then drink the milk and be satisfied, in this way leaving the ashrama's inhabitants alone. I think it was Prabhupada who used to relate this story.

Dandavats,

- They would eat herbs,roots and dry leaves and drink water from rivers

- They would stay in a cave or underneath a tree

- They ensured their safety by simply their implicit faith that the Lord protects His surrendered devotee at all times and by becoming fully engrossed in their respective service to the Lord.There are many recorded instances of this in the Bhagavatam.

As far as I've heard and read, for today's vanaprastas, it is not recommended to go live in the forest, as in Kali Yuga as it has ceased to be practical, and generally people have lost the strength and resolve to live like that.

Don't know if it's helpful,

Haribol!

Haribol,

Well judging by the information you have given us here, it basically cannot be the Nrisinghdeva avatar, because after Lord Nrsinghadev killed hiranyakshipu He was pacified by Prahlada Maharaj. It could therefore also not have happened in the period between right after Hiranyakashipu's death and before Praladha Maharaj's pacifying Nrsinghadev, because if it had, Prahlada wouldn't have had a Nrsingha avatar to pacify would he? So it must be a fallacy since there is no Nrsinghadev pastime without Prahlada Maharaj. This is simple logic.

As far as the Bhagavatam is concerned, Virabhadra makes his appearance in the fourth canto, chapter five. In short, Lord Shiva became so angry when He received news that His wife Sati was now dead because of Daksha's insulting her, that He decided to punish him. He snatched a single strand of hair from his head and threw it to the ground. From this hair Virabhadra appeared and he proceeded to ruin Daksha's yajna and he beheaded Daksha. So there is a beheading, but it is of Daksha and not of Nrsimhadeva.

Hare Krishna!

Krsna's pastimes cannot be imitated. Krsna married over I6,000

wives and kept them nicely in I6,000 palaces, but an ordinary man cannot

even keep one wife nicely. It is not that Krsna just spoke so many

wonderful things; He also acted wonderfully. We should not believe one

thing that Krsna says or does and reject another; if belief is there, it

must be full belief.

In this regard, there is a story of Narada Muni, who was once asked

by a brahmana: "Oh, you are going to meet the Lord? Will you please ask

Him when I'm going to get my salvation?"

"All right," Narada agreed. "I shall ask Him."

As Narada proceeded, he met a cobbler who was sitting under a tree

mending shoes, and the cobbler similarly asked Narada, "Oh, you are

going to see God? Will you please inquire of Him when my salvation will

come?"

When Narada Muni went to the Vaikuntha planets, he fulfilled their

request and asked Narayana (God) about the salvation of the brahmana and

the cobbler, and Narayana replied, "After leaving this body, the cobbler

shall come here to me."

"What about the brahmana?" Narada asked.

"He will have to remain there for a number of births. I do not know

when he is coming."

Narada Muni was astonished, and he finally said, "I can't

understand the mystery of this."

"That you will see," Narayana said. "When they ask you what I am

doing in My abode, tell them that I am threading the eye of a needle

with an elephant."

When Narada returned to earth and approached the brahmana, the

brahmana said, "Oh, you have seen the Lord? What was He doing?"

"He was threading an elephant through the eye of a needle," Narada

answered.

"I don't believe such nonsense," the brahmana replied. Narada could

immediately understand that the man had no faith and that he was simply

a reader of books.

Narada then left and went on to the cobbler, who asked him, "Oh,

you have seen the Lord? Tell me, what was He doing?"

"He was threading an elephant through the eye of a needle," Narada

replied.

The cobbler began to weep, "Oh, my Lord is so wonderful, He can do

anything."

"Do you really believe that the Lord can push an elephant through

the hole of a needle?" Narada asked.

"Why not?" the cobbler said, "Of course I believe it."

"How is that?"

"You can see that I am sitting under this banyan tree," the cobbler

answered, "and you can see that so many fruits are falling daily, and in

each seed there is a banyan tree like this one. If, within a small seed

there can be a big tree like this, is it difficult to accept that the

Lord is pushing an elephant through the eye of a needle?"

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranams,

the above quoted, the well known story of the brahmana and the cobbler, is quite relevant to this topic.

Belief or faith in the revealed scriptures is being questioned here, but who are we to question Bhagavatam, and how do we question it? What do we use to question the Bhagavatam? Our limited senses, our limited intellect and limited intelligence.

The story of Puranjana was a clear allegory as confirmed by the scripture itself (S.B.4.ch.29), as well as by guru (in the form of Srila Prabhupada), so there is doubt about it. However, unless sri guru and/or scripture tells us whether a particular story is an allegory or not, we as conditioned souls should not make any speculation about the stories and simply accept them as truth, however incredible it seems to our dull senses (again see the story of the cobbler and the brahmana).

Otherwise, many conflicting ideas will surface, in particular ideas conflicting with the views and findings of modern science, so this brings us to a crossroads. Do we take the smooth highway of faith in Guru and Gauranga, or do we take the rocky road of faith in material science and perhaps make an attempt somehow to bring the two together? Which road to Krishna will be quicker? Thinking like this, the road of aligning scripture and material science fast becomes more like a detour. A detour not without any dangers mind you. There may be some deep, dark potholes in the rocky road which could bring one's vehicle to a full stop, leaving you stranded. Potholes of lost faith.

Objections may be raised to those devotees who advocate Prabhupada's "the moon is further than the sun", or the scripture's "Ugrasena's bodyguards" ideas at universities across America. They could be scolded for doing so by neophyte devotees who's faith in Krishna and scripture is not so firm; they will most certainly be ridiculed by the atheists, and the neutral student who hears these devotees speak like this will think they have lost all their sanity and will be repelled from Krishna consciousness for at least one lifetime.

The refutations to such objections are that the uttama adikhari will no doubt praise such devotees who advocate their guru's teachings in an unadulterated fashion, and who have full faith in the scriptures.

For those who ridicule such faithful devotees, either atheists, neutral people or neophyte devotees, Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written in his song Kabe Habe Bolo:

When, on the banks of the Ganga in Navadvipa, will I run about, calling out the names of Gauranga and Nityananda without duplicity, dancing and singing like a madman, completely oblivious to public opinion and the outside world?

Is this not crazy? If a person identifies with something he is not, he is considered crazy. The conclusion is that one who identifies with the body cannot really be considered sane. This, then, is a challenge to the world: Whoever claims God's property or earth as belonging to his body, which is constantly changing, can only be considered a crazy man.

As for the neutral student, at first it sounds plain wrong that the neutral student is now totally repelled from the path of Bhakti yoga, but in the back of the mind a lightbulb starts shining - "karma". For all we know these neutral minded people commited a serious offense to a Vaishnava in their previous lives without having begged forgiveness, and are now suffering for it in this way that they are meeting Vaishnavas due to pious activities but are repelled by them due to the immensely destructive Vaishnava aparadha. Of course, this is speculation, but suffice to say that anything that happens has it's divine reasons. My guru maharaj always says, whatever happens by the will of Supreme Lord is for the eternal benefit of all.

Doesn't make sense? God cannot be explained by rational thought. God is beyond reason. Adokshaja. Inconceivable, beyond our capabilities of understanding through mind, senses and intellect. Similarly, the Srimad Bhagavatam is non-different from Krishna, so the information contained in it must be equally inconceivable. So in order to realize the truth of the bhagavatam, a transcendental medium is required, a vessel, and this is sri guru.

Om ajnana timirandhasya jnananjana-shalakaya cakshur unmilitam yena tasmai sri gurave namah

 

I offer my respectful obeisances unto my spiritual master, who has opened my eyes, which were blinded by the darkness of ignorance, with the torchlight of knowledge.

Truth is revealed by the grace of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga, not by one's own endeavours. By taking full faith in Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as being Radha and Krishna combined, one has to accept the full authority of the Bhagavatam, as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Himself declared it to be the most important scripture. So whether it has been changed or adulterated since it's earliest conception is irrelevant due to Mahaprabhu's approval of the Bhagavatam during His time on this earth.

Lord Rsabadeva instructs us to have full faith in the scriptures(S.B.5.5.13).

Jaya Gurudev!

Gaura Premanande! Hari Haribol!

Hare Krishna and dandavats.

If you'll please allow me to post a comment on the following quote:

Products of the group think as I think or don't think at all school of spiritual investigation I see. Both sides have it. The Iskcon side and the GM side. Explore something outside of their established perimeters and you are a heretic. Such frightened minds are not fit for the rigors of real spiritual inquiry I don't care how many slokas they memorize.

First try to establish if that so-called 'thing outside of established perimeters' is going to add something valuable to your spiritual life.

Second, what is the value of your spiritual path and does it constitute real spiritual inquiry? Let's suppose your path is Krishna consciousness and that you concur it constitutes real spiritual inquiry. Have you seen anything superior to it? If not, then where is the need to look outside of it? Narrowminded? Krishna says:

B.G. 9.34:

"man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māḿ namaskuru

mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam

ātmānaḿ mat-parāyaṇaḥ

"Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, become My devotee, offer obeisances to Me and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me."

B.G. 9.22:

"ananyāś cintayanto māḿ

ye janāḥ paryupāsate

teṣāḿ nityābhiyuktānāḿ

yoga-kṣemaḿ vahāmy aham

But those who always worship Me with exclusive devotion, meditating on My transcendental form — to them I carry what they lack, and I preserve what they have."

B.G. 18.65:

"man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māḿ namaskuru

mām evaiṣyasi satyaḿ te

pratijāne priyo 'si me

Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend."

B.G. 18.66:

"sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

ahaḿ tvāḿ sarva-pāpebhyo

mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ

Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear."

All of the above quoted verses propagate Ahaituki Bhakti to Krishna. Exclusive devotion. Single minded devotion is the key to winning Krishna's heart. Not any other way.

Now let's suppose you have taken HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada as your guru. What does HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada say about this in his purport:

According to the devotional process, one should simply accept such religious principles that will lead ultimately to the devotional service of the Lord. One may perform a particular occupational duty according to his position in the social order, but if by executing his duty one does not come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all his activities are in vain. Anything that does not lead to the perfectional stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be avoided. One should be confident that in all circumstances Kṛṣṇa will protect him from all difficulties. There is no need of thinking how one should keep the body and soul together. Kṛṣṇa will see to that. One should always think himself helpless and should consider Kṛṣṇa the only basis for his progress in life. As soon as one seriously engages himself in devotional service to the Lord in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, at once he becomes freed from all contamination of material nature. There are different processes of religion and purificatory processes by cultivation of knowledge, meditation in the mystic yoga system, etc., but one who surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa does not have to execute so many methods. That simple surrender unto Kṛṣṇa will save him from unnecessarily wasting time. One can thus make all progress at once and be freed from all sinful reactions.

Obviously one can quote an infinite amount of references to our Guru parampara propagating this exclusive devotion.

So what does Prabhupada have to say about mental speculation?

In the book "In search of the Ultimate Goal of life" Prabhupada says:

" Nobody whose basic tendency is to engage in mundane arguments can enter the precincts of these topics. They are above such a materialistic approach. Because the subject matter is supramundane, it is therefore not possible to understand it without having reached the supramental state.

"Nobody need try to understand these transcendental topics by strenuous academic manipulation of the brain and mind, because both the mundane brain and mind are useless when attempting to reach this supramental state. Only service to Godhead and His agents can help one to experience the revelation of the truth. Mental speculation, which produces only pseudoresults, simply creates a disturbance."

In the Bhagavad-gita, it is recommended that one approach the spiritual master for supramundane knowledge under the protection of service and surrender accompanied by relevant inquiries.

In a letter to Chaturbus, dated january 22, 1972 Prabhupada writes:

As for the difference between mental speculation and philosophical speculation, we take it that everything is known by the psychological action of the mind, so that philosophical speculation is the same as mental speculation if it is merely the random or haphazard activity of the brain to understand everything and making theories, "if's" and "maybe's." But if philosophical speculation is directed by Sastra and Guru, and if the goal of such philosophical attempts is to achieve Visnu, then that philosophical speculation is not mental speculation.

In another letter to Dinesh, dated january 22, 1970 regarding a book translation:

"The idea is that we should not make any addition or subtraction of mental speculation, but we should endeavor, even if we do not fully understand from our present platform, to present simply the philosophy as we have received it directly and realized it by practical experience.

And from another letter, to Hamsaduta, dated january 23, 1970:

"After all these are facts for the process of realization, but we can try to understand them as far as possible from the statement of authorized Scriptures through the version of the Spiritual Master or saintly persons.

Of course, it is up to the devotee how serious he or she takes Guru and Krishna's instructions, nobody will stop anyone from engaging in useless mental speculation. Mental speculation does not equal spiritual discussions.

Haribol!

Hare Krishna,

wow, this sad news comes as quite a shock to me. I've never met Puru prabhu in person, but I've always admired his ability to extract the exact appropriate quotes, from the huge body of scriptures and commentaries that are available to us, when it came to resolving the issues that were put forward on this messageboard.

He never bothered much to use his own words, with a puffed up attitude, like myself. I suppose he rightly felt that the words of the acharya's are more than sufficient. Though my opinion has no value whatsoever, from his posts I have always understood him to be properly situated in his bhajana and in right understanding of the true spirit of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Although I have no right to speak of it, I'm still also very glad and relieved to see that Theist had in time reconciled past differences with Puru prabhu and got on more friendly terms again.

It is very unsettling to habituously click on the favorites link to Audarya fellowship and read that Puru prabhu has left his body, especially since his last post was only some hours ago. In this way Krishna is once more hitting me on my dull head with the hammer of material reality, saying "this material life is short, so stop wasting your valuable time in pursuance of fleeting objectives", and for a few minutes it works. But then, due to my extreme dullness of mind it settles back to it's old and corrupted state and continues in it's old imbibed habits, until one day Krishna will strike the hammer harder then ever....

It is always to see a devotee of Lord Krishna go. I'm very grateful for his contribution to the community, and very grateful for his great website www.bvml.org, the content of which has helped remove many doubts from my mind. I hope other devotees will keep the site alive and kicking.

I pay my humble prostrated obeisances to Sriman Puru Prabhu

from a conversation with Prabhupada:

 

Harikesa:When people die, though, there is usually some cause. Like they have a heart attack or they get hit by a car or some disease. So that death is caused by the disease...

Prabhupada: That is not the cause. That is the effect. You foolish, do not know. You are taking it, cause.

Harikesa: Well, when you get hit by a car, that's a cause.

Prabhupada: Just like one man becomes insolvent, loses everything. So he said that "I had no money. Therefore I become insolvent." But that is not the fact. He could not manage; therefore there was scarcity of money and he became failure. So that is effect. On account of his bad management, he came to a position that he could not pay to his creditor, and his business is failure. So that insolvency is not the cause. It is the effect.

Pusta Krsna: Bhisma was able to remain in his body even on a bed of arrows.

Prabhupada: So when you are going to die, these are the... On account of imminent death, these are the effects.

Harikesa: But that means that the body breaks down.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Harikesa: The body breaks down.

Prabhupada: At a certain period it will break.

Harikesa: So that is the cause, the body breaking down.

Prabhupada: Yes. So you say heart failure is the cause. No. The body is breaking; therefore heart failure.

Harikesa: So death means the body breaks.

Prabhupada: No, no. First of all your answer... You say the heart failure is the cause. The man is dying. I say that because the man is dying, the heart is failure. So heart failure is not the cause. It is the effect.

So from the spiritual point of view, rather than the cold, grossly material point of view, we should actually say that on account of Suhotra Prabhu's leaving of his body, the body's heart suffered a massive failure. That is the proper perspective, the spiritual perspective. So nicely put by Prabhupada.

It's always sad when a devotee of the Lord leaves the world. I pay my due respects to the departed. They have left their bodies under auspicious circumstances.

Haribol!

Hare Krishna,

No your explaination was not lost, but rather not accepted.

The very concept that a body that is in service to the lord is not subjected to the laws of material nature is a balony. It is not true as has been demonstrated numerous times by Gauduya devotees. Can you take prabhupadas example and back up your statement?

You don't accept the explanation, thinking it is my explanation or concoction, but that is not the fact. The fact is that it is Vishnu's conclusion, so if you don't agree with Him you'll have to take it up with Him.

from Sri Caitanya Caritamrta antya lila 4.191:

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "The body of a devotee is never material. It is considered to be transcendental, full of spiritual bliss.

This means you are calling Caitanya Mahaprabhu as being full of balony.

But wait, here you say:

Dear fellow Bhaktas, spiritual seekers,

I would like to add, that a couple of HK prabhus considered me as offensive since I don't feel obliged to agree exactly with their line of philosophy.

I would like to clarify that I don't have an agenda to discredit HK or its philosophy at all as is being wrongly perceived by Narsinghadev das and Guest105.

Then you say:

As a matter of fact, the gaudiya understanding of 'maya' is very limited. So all the 'devotees' are automatically free of maya in it.

To understand maya more, you have to study shaktism. Vaishnavism does not do much justice explaining it.

But I'm not really putting him down. He simply wanted to reform certain things as per his perspective of Vedas.

It is not Prabhupada's perspective of the Vedas, it is Krishna's perspective, it is Vyasadeva's perspective. There is no question of interpretation.

So by putting 2 and 2 together we get the result that you have indeed been (very) offensive, by calling Mahaprabhu as being full of balony, by equating a pure devotee of the Lord with a common man and by questioning the philosophy which is put forward by Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is God Himself.

So the conclusion is that you are simply not accepting the authority of shastra. Besides the quote I have placed here in my previous post, there are other quotes like this one from Padma Purana, that leave no room for interpretation:

 

 

arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave jati-buddhir visnor va vaisnavanam kali-mala-mathane pada-tirthe 'mbu-buddhih sri-visnor namni mantre sakala-kalusa-he sabda-samanya-buddhir visnau sarvesvarese tad-itara-sama-dhir yasya va naraki sah

 

"One who thinks the Deity in the temple to be made of wood or stone, who thinks of the spiritual master in the disciplic succession as an ordinary man, who thinks the Vaisnava in the Acyuta-gotra to belong to a certain caste or creed or who thinks of caranamrta or Ganges water as ordinary water is taken to be a resident of hell." (Padma Purana)

Tell me, do you consider the deity in the temple a material item made of stone or wood? If not, then certainly you will be able to appreciate that the same goes for the body of the spiritual master. But if you do, then it is to be understood that you are not accepting the conclusion of the shastra, and that is duskrtinam, most unfortunate.

Anyhow, that was the explanation of how the pure devotee of Lord has a spiritual body, even in this world.

The other explanation of "spiritual body" is: That transcendental body which a God-realized soul achieves upon quitting his current body. When such a soul enters the Vaikuntha region, one receives an appropriate and changeless spiritual body according to one's ishta deva.

That body which the pure devotee leaves behind however, is still a spiritual body and worthy of worship, that is the reason why such a body is put into samadhi, rather then burned to ashes.

 

Shortly after that time we returned to the Krishna-Balarama Mandir and made all arrangements for his mahotsava. According to his wishes we took him on procession in front of most of the important deities of Vrindavana. There were so many of his disciples and other persons chanting in that procession. All of the Vraja-vasis came into the streets to honor him. After this, I prepared his body. I wrote the special mantras on his chest and forehead with tilaka. I used the salt for his body. Then, following all of the proper Vaisnava procedures, I put his transcendental body into samadhi with my own hand.

----Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

I sincerely hope that you understand this subject matter now, so that in the future any such aparadha may be prevented.

I don't believe in that "offences" scare crow tactic.

Vaishnava aparadha is the worst possible offense one can make. In fact it is so horrible that even Lord Vishnu Himself cannot free one from it's awkward and inauspicious backlash. Therefore again, by claiming it a scarecrow tactic and by "not believing" in it, you are once more defying the authority of the Vedic scriptures. A perfect example of the horrible offense that is Vaisnava aparadha is given in S.B. 9.4, the story of Ambarish Maharaj and Durvasa Muni. You would do well to read it.

As a result of Durvasa Muni's offending Ambarisha Maharaj he was chased by the Lord's Sudarshana Chakra troughout the galaxy. Durvasa Muni sought shelter at the feet of respectively Lord Brahma, Lord Shiva and Lord Narayana, but all to no avail. They could not save him, so Lord Narayana spoke to Durvasa Muni:

 

SB 9.4.68: The pure devotee is always within the core of My heart, and I am always in the heart of the pure devotee. My devotees do not know anything else but Me, and I do not know anyone else but them.

 

 

SB 9.4.69: O brāhmaṇa, let Me now advise you for your own protection. Please hear from Me. By offending Mahārāja Ambarīṣa, you have acted with self-envy. Therefore you should go to him immediately, without a moment's delay. One's so-called prowess, when employed against the devotee, certainly harms he who employs it. Thus it is the subject, not the object, who is harmed.

SB 9.4.70: For a brāhmaṇa, austerity and learning are certainly auspicious, but when acquired by a person who is not gentle, such austerity and learning are most dangerous.

SB 9.4.71: O best of the brāhmaṇas, you should therefore go immediately to King Ambarīṣa, the son of Mahārāja Nābhāga. I wish you all good fortune. If you can satisfy Mahārāja Ambarīṣa, then there will be peace for you.

So please do not take light upon the gravity of the offense that is Vaishnava aparadha.

As for the word Karmi, that is not (or is not supposed to be) used as slander, to put down anyone. They are simply designations to categorize the different types of people, no malicious intent included. Fact is that there are people who are engaged in performing karma according to the Vedic injunctions (karmi's), there are those who are in (search of) knowledge of the impersonal or transcendental (jnani's(B.G.7.17-18 word mentioned)) and there are those who's hearts remain connected with Sri Bhagavan or who endeavour for spiritual perfection (yogi's(B.G.6.28 word mentioned)). These explanations are perfectly in accordance with shastra. The words jnani and yogi are acceptable so why get hung up on the word karmi?

It was used by Prabhupada in a similar fashion as he used the designations jnani and yogi, no foul intent there.

But I surely would like to defend the putting down of Hinduism/Sanatan Dharma and, Yoga, Tantra, and other Vedic practices, that are dismissed as "mysticism" and non Vaishnava, projecting them as low and not so intelligent as the Gaudiya ways.

We Gaudiya's are not on a high horse. We simply repeat what Krishna Has said in the Bhagavad Gita, and what is said in the Srimad Bhagavatam. It is the shastric conclusion that Kevala Bhakti, or unalloyed devotion, to Sri Sri Radha Krishna is superior to all other forms of worship. That is not a Gaudiya conclusion, it is plainly stated in scripture time and again.

B.G. 6.47:

yoginām api sarveṣāḿ

mad-gatenāntar-ātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate yo māḿ

sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

"And of all yogis, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshipping me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all."

The truth is not equally palatable to all. We are speakers of the highest truth, not proudly so, but simply as parrots repeating the opinion of the Supreme Lord.

For example I myself have no qualification to claim anything, but I am simply repeating the words of Krishna and the spiritual masters, therefore it becomes bonafide. This is also what Prabhupada said about himself, in all his humility.

By parroting and following strictly the rules and regulations as per our guruvarga and the order of the bonafide guru, we are also gradually realizing that Truth, and indeed there are lots of devotees worldwide who are situated in that Truth. As such it is not just dry parroting. Although it may be just that in the beginning, in due time the taste will come, if one strictly adheres to the orders of one's spiritual master.

Any spiritual path that is not directed at the Supreme Lord is inferior, there is ample Vedic evidence to back up this statement. Similarly out of those paths, the path of kevala bhakti yoga to Lord Krishna is the highest path, and of this statement there is also ample Vedic evidence.

What can we do about it? We did not make it that way, Krishna did. There's no such thing as HK propaganda or hidden agenda's. The only "propaganda" we're making is freely handing out the exact words of Krishna to everyone, surely that is not a crime? In fact they are words that should be propagated all over the world.

And if those words sound like the putting down of every other religious path, then sorry, but we cannot and will not bend the truth in order for us to please and appease everyone.

This is not possible. Truth is one, but those who are under the clutches maya will not agree to that truth. That is their misfortune.

If we would bend the truth, and thus would not repeat the instructions and words of our guru parampara, we ourselves plus the whole pure message will become spoiled, corrupted.

As far as Prabhupada's word usage is concerned I can say that those who Prabhupada labelled as fools and rascals are also validated by shastra as being exactly that. He was and still is cutting down the jungle of confusion with his pure sword of truth. Lots of weed and poisonous undergrowth will object to their being cut down, but the result be that the truth will be lifted out of the quagmire of halftruths and blatant lies. His weapon of words were exactly appropriate at that time, and frankly I find them to be appropriate at all times.

I would invite you to come and test for yourself to see if it is true. It is not an empty bluff. There is practice also. Sincerely take up this practice of bhakti yoga and you will find out for yourself.

Wishing you all the best in your spiritual endeavours,

Haribol!

Hare Krishna,

it appears the first explanation was lost on you. Let's take the example of prasadam, in other words foodstuffs that have been offered to and accepted by the Supreme Lord. That prasadam is spiritual, there is no question of that.

it is stated:

naivedyam jagadisasya

anna-panadikam ca yat

bhaksyabhaksya-vicaras ca

nasti tad-bhaksane dvijah

brahmavan-nirvikaram hi

yatha visnus tathaiva tat

vikaram ye prakurvanti

bhaksane tad dvijatayah

kustha-vyadhi-samayuktah

putra-dara-vivarjitah

nirayam yanti te vipras

tasman navartate punah

 

"O brahmanas, in the eating of food such as rice and water, etc., which has been tasted by the Lord of the universe, Sri Krsna, there is no consideration of whether it is eatable or uneatable. Just as Lord Visnu is spiritual and is not subject to mundane transformation, so in the same way His prasada is spiritual and untransformable. Those brahmanas, who consider that in the eating of visnu-prasada there is some mundane transformation of its spiritual qualities and thus it can become contaminated by contact with someone's mouth or hands, become afflicted with leprosy, become bereft of their sons and wife, and go to hell, never again to return from that place."

(Visnu Purana)

maha-prasade govinde

nama-brahmani vaisnave

svalpa-punya-vatam rajan

visvaso naiva jayate

(Mahabharata)

"O king, for those who have amassed very few pious activities, their faith in maha-prasada, in Sri Govinda, in the Holy Name and in the Vaisnava is never born."

So in the same way, that body which is offered to the Supreme Lord in full surrender (atma-nivedanam) is a spiritual body. That it is subject to the laws of material nature is of no consideration here.

Umm... I beg to differ really. The terms you use have nothing to do with the "depth of English language." 'Karmi' for instance is far from being an "english" term!! so what's your understanding of its depth? Karmi according to "HKs" is a worldy person, a person engaged in worldly activities, one who is not a (prefereably gaudiya) Krsna devotee as per HK understanding of service. Did you come across much often "the supreme personality of "god-'head'" in english dictionary?? What about the "spiritual body"? Do we see much of that term in the New Testament? or is it again a term taken from Yoga / Sanatana Dharma?

I fail to find it anywhere except the HKs! And if these terms are not all that important, why call everybody else names like "karmis" etc?

Well I was not referring to the word Karmi, the word which seems to bother you a whole lot. The phrase "Supreme personality of godhead" does not need to be in the dictionary for one to understand that word for word, it is plain English. That phrase, just like the phrase "spiritual body" is designed to distinguish it and set it apart, a tool in helping one gain a better understanding of the spiritual plane. There's no need for it to be confirmed by the latest Oxford Concise English Dictionary, nor does it need to be stated in the shastra for it to be allowed to be used.

Why would any man outside of the Gaudiya tradition know of these words, or use them? And what difference does it make that they do or don't?

It is not that because 500 million Indians don't know of these words that it therefore invalidates the Hare Krishna movement. Like I said, why would they know them in the first place, it is of no importance.

The HKs surely are not following the original Sanatana Dharma! They are following gaudiya vaishnavism projected and advertised as Vedic dharma. How often do you study the Vedas to start with? Are your sadhna practices the same as that in the Vedic age? Sanatana Dharma is not just about chanting HK mantra. What happened to other Vedic sadhnas? Vedic Sanatana Dharma is not just about gaudiya line of vedantism! There is a big difference between the sadhnas of Vishwamitra, Lord Rama and say... prabhupada. umm... how Sanatana is one Vaishnava sect that doesn't accept any other part of this cultures simply dismissing it as "hodgepodge, is the question!!

There are many dharma's indeed, and yours currently seems to constitute the discrediting of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas at any cost, as most of your posts convey. However that is not your sanatana dharma.

Neither is the chanting of the Maha mantra sanatana dharma. That is our yuga dharma, as revealed by shastra. Each yuga has it's particular yuga dharma, and they bring us TO our sanatana dharma. There are differences in the sadhana for each yuga dharma, and in this Kali yuga the yuga dharma is the chanting of the Maha mantra, so there is really no challlenge there.

When we speak of a sanatana dharma that means 'that eternal function of the living entity', then there is only one sanatan dharma, and it is indeed followed by the Gaudiya Vaisnavas, because it is every living entity's eternal constitutional position to be a servant of the Supreme Lord.

My advise to you is therefore that whatever path it is you follow, just stick to that, rather than creating a profession out of discrediting the Gaudiya Vaisnava line and it's practitioners, for that is sure to destroy your spiritual life completely.

All the best,

Haribol!