ranga

"My point is that Rama and Krishna was ancient warrior Aryan invaders who where admired for their great conquests and deified by the warring Aryan tribes. I sincerely appeal for the enlightened minds to realize this ultimate truth and see god in love instead of in man made stories and folklores" Sir -- you and my humble self varies very largely.For you calling Krishna and Ramachandra as mere legendary kings is very sweet.But for we Vaishnavas they are none other than Vishnu the Supreme.In Rama I never see violence but see strength and patience at the same place.He is our Lord more than anything.We simply depend on the mercy of these two great Purnavataras and chant their holy names. You speak about Vallalar,Adiyaars and all.We respect and accept you believes as true.But this type of misdirecting other's believes is very unfortunate. You say we degrade Shiva but you have gone to the extent of underestimating the Vishnu's main mission taking avatars among human beings and enlighten us. It is better we bid farewell for it is good for you who like to stay away from Vishnu and his glorious Rama avatar. Sir -- one day or other I am sure you will learn about the Bhajana Sampradaya and appreciate his glories with tears in eyes. Wish you all the very best and farewell forever.

"Vaishnavas sure beat the humbleness of the blades-of-grass at drama. Like plastic slippers, the vasihnavas can soon give rashes to hurt the feet and cause one to slip to hurt himself when it's wet with rain water. " Let it be I am a fanatic idiot.But then why you write the above words addressing entire Vaishnava community? It means you are attacking entire Vaishnavism for a single person like me arguing something(may be right or wrong).Isn't it? What a logic!!Strange indeed!!!!!!! "For all you know the 'shaivite' writer might have considered you as an arrogant person, referring to another thread. " In which thread I showed Arrogancy? Can you come up with particular words? And considering me an arrogant(assume) why Shaivite should post a thread with title "Vaishnavaa Intolerance". Does he assume like I am a representative of Vaishnavas? Then why should he generalize my so called arrogance to entire Vaishanvism? And it seems you people are prepared for a fight.Please note we are the followers of Peaceful Ramanuja whose disciple was blinded by a Shaiva Chola king for adopting Vaishnavism.Ramanuja did not burn the whole chola kingdom nor called Shaivites cruel.Its not our way always.Please understand.We respect Shiva and Shakthi more than you pseudo people do.In the name of Advaita you dissolve our very old vedic heritage and austerities.But we answer everypoint with dignity,respect and scriputural referrence. Please dont have pre-conceived notion on anybody may it be christianity,ISKCON,ISLAM etc.

"I request fellow shaivites to exhibit tolerance in the face of persistant attacks. Counter attack will not change the attitude of our misguided friends, it will only strengthen their resolve.........." Who is attacking you Mr. Shaivite? I came forward to clarify certain things to you.But it seems your basic perception and assumption itself is afficted severly.And you are creating a scene as if every vaishnava is a rascal using filty language.I am not angry at you but I really feel bad at this society which cannot tolerate a unique path different from your Advaita.Shiva Adiyaargal never prescribed equating jivas to God and when we bring forth certain valid points you people get irritated like anything and instead of directly answering adopt such principles of indirectly attacking,making criticism etc.

Dear Shaivite, You are from tamilnadu it seems.I am a smartha(iyer) by birth but a stringent Vishnu devotee.We never insult Shiva -- for he is a Mahajanaa very great Bhagavata.If somone insults Shiva,simply conclude that he is not a Vaishnava. But I verily accept that in Srirangam and other places,some unwanted elements degrade Shiva like this.(they not only degrade Shiva but has created a partition between Vada Kalai Vaishnavas and Then Kalai Vaishnavas).Neverthless please dont come to this hasty conclusion that all Vaishnavites are intolerant. The quality of equanimity is not there because it is a fact we say.All fingers are not of same height.Everyone is unique and why expect equality? But I accept if somebody hurted without respect he is verily a sinner.(but this does not include great devotees on either side of Shiva or Vishnu who sometimes hate other Gods because they are genuine in their action and very highly evolved.If you have heard of Karaikal Ammaiyar and certain nayanmars they have openly disregarded Vishnu but neverthless as I said their purity burns the conflicts.It also exists among Alwars but we are not eligible to comment upon them) "Shaivites, are made to appear very uncivilzed, hot tempered and ignorant of scripture, but they still don't go about insulting other religions and gods" These words and phrases like Dravidan nature show that you are affected by some pre-conceived notion.Who said Shaivites appear uncivilized and hot tempered? Shaivites are not all ignorant of scriptures. Hence I request you to enjoy the bliss of Alwars bhakthi literature and of Nayanmars also and sing Hari's glories without treating Vaishnavas as arrogant. I take the privilege to address you on behalf of Vaishnavas not to confuse about disrespect.A true Vaishnava is humbler than the blade of the grass.If somebody claims a Vaishnavite and abuse Shiva surely he is a fake. But argument is always there because everyone cannot accept Advaita.While arguing comparison and all will be there but we dont compare ourselves with Shiva for he is surely powerful than all jivatmas. I invite to the bhakthi culture which we are enjoying for centuries after Ramanuja's bhakthi revolution.You ignore this comparison part if it acts as a huddle to your devotion to Vishnu.Because you will miss a lot many nice things in Vishnu devotion life. Thankyou for raising this point!!!!!

Bhadramoorthi, I first of all really appreciate your profound knowledge on Divine Mother,Tantric worship and Lalitha Sthothram. Only very few know fully about Lalith stothram and esp the fact that Vag Devatas composed it. But now with full respect to the great controllers of material energy Shiva and Kali I have to present my arguments for Vishnu is the ONLY Supreme. Sir -- I thought you would bringforth so many nectar like facts from great compostions on Devi side to prove her Maha Satvik nature.But you yourself accept certain facts on Devi Worship the main among them the left hand path and Kaula worship. Left hand tantric path is very very tamasik in nature if I should not use words like passionate and nirvaanaa worship. Kaula worship means animals are killed in sacrifice which inturn means the deity being worshipped is sectarian only to human beings and not macro in understanding the consciousness of other creatures. And with such a tamasik aspect to the Divine Mother, how can a highly evolved soul such as Buddha worship her without any conflict of principles and guiltiness? "She cant be confined to a particular Gunam like the other deities Vishnu,Indra etc..She is an all-rounder." Sir -- this is very weak in argument and highly disappointing.Both evil and good exists in the world.Everything is God's material energy only.But noone will say for that like "Oh be an all-rounder do everything". That is not the proper approach.The Divie should discard,sit over the evil and bless the Good(not blessing only the Goodness of mankind but the goodness of all creatures).Tamasik guna is in mode of ignorance.Its characteristics are attributed by ignorance.Yes I am ingorant of the sufferings of animals means I am little intelligent.If I am not able to put myself on a goat's part and be empathetic,then I am grossly ignorant and uncaring of others. Surely if a Divine be an all-rounder and take worship from such people also(without trying to change their character but change herself to their needs) I better keep myself away from that Divine. "Ask any of the tantriks why they dont perform sattwik tantras--the answer is simple--it is very hard and slow to bear fruits." Sir tantrik science is a dangerous science and I know many astonishing things about it.'Slow to bear fruits' this phrase is out of context in this transcendtal discussion where we are into finding that real Almighty. "They are the parents---hence no partiality" Yes then no partiality to animals also because our vedic religion believes that animals are soul-creatures unlike christians who conveniently say that they are chemical combinations. Sir -- what I expected from you is numerous quotes and qualities to prove that Devi is pure Satwik and different from Kali and other deities.But it seems you come down and accept tamasik and non vedic worship and with this how can you prove the Almighty aspect of Divine Mother? Today it is really sweet to become a brave valourous person,give animal's blood to Kali,enjoy good life,do social service and argue equanimity.Yes it is even so sweet to call for support from Vedic puranas and tantrism etc etc.It is really very very sweet to call Divine Mother and make her descend to our tastes.But one thing is there A supreme witness at the macro level and our own conscience at the Mini level.It can never lie and will speak what is wrong. But for all these I never discourage people arguing for Divine Mother as Almighty. The only thing I request from them is dont try to justify things but try to prove that your Divine Mother rejects sacrifice,tantrism,eternally remains in pure goodness and loves all.Make a social revolution to stop the society to offer tamasik worship to her.We may be tamasik but we should not link our Divine,make her descend to tamasik things. If you say like "onto their level Devi descends" -- then she becomes partial against animals.So that Devi should try to raise his devotees instead of comind down.

"Ever heard of Jaya /Vijaya who were great devotees of Vishnu and were the guards of Vaikunta, cursed by sages for ego to take birth as Asuras." Sir Jaya and Vijaya were never demons on that birth.And when they become demons on the next birth,they verily opposed Vishnu. There are two highly philosophical aspects to this exceptional scene of two devotees going against the lord. Those two were never egoistic but their understanding of Earth is very superficial.That is why they demanded three demoniac short births in the place of 45 pure devotees birth.They thought that God is only in Vaikunda.But Vishnu is there wherever his devotees chant his holy name. Unaware of this,they wanted to reach His lotus feet very quickly and chose a wrong option. Secondly in one of the births, Ravana had to carry Mother Sita the same one whom he glorifed as Jaya.Ravana inspite of all his tapas and inspite of the leela of Mother to just act controlled before him,would not be able even to touch the dust of Mother sita.But it was his previous birth as a devotee in Vaikunda, made him atleast eligible to live in the world till Rama came and killed him.Otherwise the very thought of that abominable act against Sita would have burnt him lest no need for Rama to come and kill him. It is the Supreme Lord's mercy to give a very high past history to even a demon.That is the point.The Lord never take revenge of demons but give a end in their own way.Evil to evil makes the evil good.I dont want to link here how Kali and other gods kill and suck demon's blood everytime the same way.Simply noone can be equal to him. "Ever heard of Madhu/Kesi demons who were just not devotees but actually sprang from Vishnu himself." Madhu and Kesi were never Vishnu devotees.Also everybody Sprang from Vishnu only.The whole universe sprang from him only.In this cosmic form Vishnu shows Arjuna all demons in his body.But they will always remain away from the lord for the Lord says "muda janmana janmani" birth after birth they will continue to be ignorant for one simple quality of Sharanagathi to Vishnu lagging in them. Further vishnu devotees can never become demons as Lord assures in Gita like this "Kshripram Bhavathi Dharmaathmah.... Kaunteya prathijaanihi na me bhakthaa pranashyathi" (ie) even if a person of most abominable character worships me he will soon become a righteous person for take it from me my devotee NEVER PERISHES"

Sir, You interpret the Bali priya term to give your own explanation.But in cases like this the direct meaning does have much implication. God is someone who is Supremely Lovable beyond doubt for all creatures.As you said,simply by this term,Tamasic men do an abominable sin.So a great book should never give room for speculation and mis representation.You cannot find a single name of Vishnu to misrepresent and sacrifice.And very simply why sacrifice is always involved with Shiva and Kali? Why these tamasic men get attracted to them always?Why they dont bother Vishnu?Because Vishnu never likes manly ego.They cannot really shed that out.Thats why Demons remained Shiva deovtees but never respected their own master at times.But you cannot quote a single vishnu devotee who is a demon by action.(Prahladha and Vibeeshana were exceptionally exalted high grade souls and not demons by their action) Radhe Krishna

Hi, Religion & experience are above rational sciences.Vishnu is not illogical but he is beyond the reach of logical arguments.Whatever I wrote lest even the great epics are mere literal words without belief and practice but they do carry His message.The soul which is receptive will take the right thing. And again what is right is also based on the mode on which one operates.But that does not deny a common benchmark. Perception does not affect the reality which is being perceived.A murder is punishable no matter the murderer supports that cannibalism is a part of human civilization.It is his perception.Thats all.But the reality is murder is an offense. For a butcher, killing goats is perfectly right but for a sage or budhha it is a great sin and they will feel for it when they saw such an act. So the individual consciousness give its judgements or conclusion based on its mode of nature inherent on it by a large collection of karma. But a final conclusion that is really true does exist. In short everything is relative -- I accept.But that does not deny an absolute non relative thing.That is perfection,God,Super power,Divine or Vishnu all.Why Vishnu? why not Einstein or you or me? Consider this scenario. For an ant, even my powers will look great.It will say "O a great being living for 100 years and can protect us for all our ten days life time.But if got angried,can destroy us largely by a mere crush even. Oh he must be God". But in reality I am a simply higher powerful being than that ant and I have my own constraints and limits. Like way so many powerful beings other than human race can exists in the universe but all are not God.God is the ultimate and no one is greater or equal to him. So to conclude who is God,one must use his conscience and rational neutral mind and then conclude.If we say God must be impersonal then we are putting a limit on the infinite itself. Hence we take Puranas and apply the neutral buddhi giving due importance to our intution also and come to a conclusion like Vishnu is God.And my conclusion must be realized and my path must be followed by so many and they must have attained the realtiy.That further ensures our path is right. And with Vishnu devotees it happened.For Tukaram he directly infront of everybody went to Vaikunda.So many I can give. If we filter like this only three prominent path comes -- Vishnu,Siva and Mother Goddess.Even among them the wise concludes Vishnu as Lord.(reason I explained earlier) Basic ethics must not come in the way of the chosen deity.For eg if I choose Kali, then ahimsa gets a jerk at the start itself.We cannot argue like I dont sacrifice for Kali but accept that it is prescribed in some scriptures and some low level people do it.But for Vishnu this ethical conflict never arises.No body cuts the throat of a goat for Vishnu and no scriptures argue that. That was my arguement. So Religion is experience.Experience it fully to know the truth.May it be Devi worship or Shiva worship,do it very sincerely and believe fully.One day all will come to Him.Bhagavan says in Gita that those who worship the demi gods actually adores him only but in a wrong way. Radhe Krishna!!!!!!!!

Hi, .Drishti occurs when someone looks at you with a jealous,evil and astonishing mind.Someone who cannot possess or achieve a thing which you have reached. Someone says pumpkin,bloody sacrifice and all for drishti removal. But in my experience Lord Narasimha photo in your house entrance and workplace will nullify all evil results.Its not because Narasimha has horrifying look I am telling this. Generally, Vishnu's Narasimha Avatar is to give swift removal of miseries esp due to enemies,demoniac men and horoscope planets. It is said when one loudly chants "Jai Narasimha" even the Sani planet would fly away and cannot do any harm.

Sir, Your question is very encouraging. You have brought a very nice point. If you take Vishnu, you can do all types of devotion like a dasa,friend,mother,lover etc. Vishnu is all attractive and pleasing to everyone.He is full of mercy and always stay in the mode of pure goodness.His devotees know no refuge other than Him and he accepts only veg prasadam and no animal sacrifice and all.Because he is the father of all living entities.(even plants have life but we offer him those leaves before taking it to recycle them to higher birth.Their pain of sensitivity is far more inferior when compared to five sensed goats.Perhaps its a different issue altogether) Now why Vyasa glorified other deities in other puranas? There are two reasons. i)Vishnu devotion is something which the soul must aspire and rightly conclude given the confusing other things.It is because it is indeed it is very very tough to accept Vishnu as supreme than anybody and once accepted he becomes a Vaishhava and slowly his character is perfectionalized. If vyasa directly concluded Vishnu as great, there is no greatness for the aspiration and right decision of buddhi for devotees.But now only intelligent and humble men can seggregate fact from illusion and judge the greatness among the thrimurthis. For your information, one sage called Brighu once decided to find who is great and found Vishnu as perfect as he was very kind and lovable. Further Vishnu gets angry very rarely and hence it has its respect.In case of Narasimha avatar he was extremely angry at the bad and evil.But for that thing happened long ago,no one sacrifices poor innocent animals as a demon symbol to Narasimha.Because we all know Vishnu is the father and unwanteldy he wont continue his anger.But incase of other deities that perfect maturity is not there and something is lagging behind them though other deites are far more powerful than us. ii)The second reason is that everone is not nearby to the mode of goodness and hence different levels of lessons are there for them to gradually elevate them. For those who eat meat and drink wine,if we go and tell about Vishnu they wont listen much.So vyasa glorified Kali and Kala Bhairav in some puranas so that these men will get attracted and follow some devotion,some principles and offer their meat to Kali and start follow few things of vedic religion. Slowly they want to know more about Kali,go to Devi Bhagavadam find still more intellecutal things and slowly identifies Vishnu as the right source to accept the Perfect devotion.That is the plan.I have given you water mixed milk but use your buddhi to separate water and take the milk. (The concept of Divine Mother where we attribute all the above said good things to a deity Laitha devi can be found in Lalitha Sahasranamam.But as it would have it,there are certain flaws like Bali priya,Rowdra Rupa and other terms along with mention of Left hand tantric path(Dakshinaa dakshina rupini).Hence that very resepctable book even cannot attribute all perfect things to a Divine Mother. But to my knowledge it is only worthy among other Deity glorifications to somewhere stand against Vishnu glorification. So you very rightly quoted MUKTHANAM PARAMA GATHI and Vishnu is not our enemy or so.When one starts believing him, he slowly reveals himself. If possible go to Srirangam,Trichy where you will find gigantic sleeping Perumal the Ranganadha who is very very beautiful and admirable.Many impersonalists have got changed to Vishnu bhakthi path by such a beauty.

Maadhav, Thankyou for the correction. Yes Prana shakthi is still there in the deity idol but as you rightly said it must be transferred to a new moorthy and pooja must be carried out to New moorthy. The whole problem lies for normal devotees like us.As this person Patriot started looking into the broken part,our mind automatically goes to find faultiness even with a divine idol.It is to avoid this psychological boundary of fault finding we bind on ourself,such rituals are prescribed in scriptures. But a very high exalted devotee can call the divine to descend upon even a speck of dust. Radhe Krishna!!!!!!!

Hi, Broken ideals no longer carry Prana Shakthi of the particular deity.So please dont worship that deity. Instead, you can buy a new one,do prana prathishta and do pooja for it. The old deity must be kept in the pooja room with full respect or after installing new deity the old idol must be merged in Holy Rivers like Ganges,Cauvery(not in lakes or ponds).Sea is also acceptable.

Hi, First of all your basic assumption is Rama is a cheat. If you had genuine doubts about Bhagavan's character,you would have humbly raised the opinions with due respect to that great Maha Vishnu,Bhavagavan Ramachandra. A flawed character always looks for faulty things even in divine.But a perfect character like Rama never failed to appreciate even Ravana his enemy for his valour. That is Rama's quality and this is your qualtiy to find fault with Rama. Think of how many good he did, Vibeshana charanaagadhi and Jatayu Moksham,Bharadha abayam,Kaikeyi incident and all.Who will perform funeral rites to a bird? This bloody Vali and Ravana will kill poor messengers for carrying a bad news for them. You can have doubts about Divine's actions because we are all mortals but your tone is verily demonic as Krishna calls in Gita. Better you dont believe God,become a true atheist and say "Rama never existed" rather than cunningly barking at him.

Bhakthi is ego less and we surrender our micro ego to the macro consciousness the Bhagavan Vishnu. In this way,it is realistic,flawless and one can happily perform this yoga.Not that one aims at Moksha while doing Bhakthi.Bhakthi is complete in itself.A devotee accepts whatever he gets whether Moksha or Hell as Krishna Prasadam. Other yogas solely depend on the individual's capacity and his own Sadhana.But bhakthi depends on Mercy of the Lord. Only true aspiration and thirst for Vishnu is requried in Bhakthi.Nothing else. Hari Bol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1