rishidas

Interesting topic. I have also had similar experiences, although somewhat different in nature, as thus far the ghosts have never tried to choke me or pounce on me or anything like that. The experiences I have had have always happened right around the brahma-muhurta hour, somewhere between 4 and 6 AM. When I used to live in the Temples, if I took a snap during this time, I would sometimes have this semi-awake paralysis experience. I never saw ghosts at that time, however. Instead, it seemed to be more of an "astral projection" type of thing. My body would become paralyzed, but if I didn't panic, I would (or my astral body would) float upwards into the air, not too far usually, but sometimes I would go outside the building a short ways, and I could very vividly see exactly what was there, even though my physical eyes were shut. Actually, I would become exhilarated upon the thought of being able to astral travel and due to the excitement, I would always quickly re-enter my body and wake up. I have known a few devotees who were able to astral travel, and they have described a similar experience, that the body freezes up at first, and if one can overcome the natural tendency to panic, that one can learn how to astral travel. On the other hand, I have also had experiences where my body has frozen up and I have clearly seen a ghost, through eyes wide shut, and usually the ghost was standing or sitting very very close to my sleeping body, way too close for comfort. As mentioned by someone else, this type of experience would happen in an old house. Since my physical eyes were shut, my best guess is that I saw these ghosts with "astral vision", since ghosts do hover on the astral plane. So far, I have only seen 2 different ghosts. One, an old man with a long grey beard, stark naked. Kind of spooky, standing very close to me, just observing me, but apparently having little regard for my privacy or space, perhaps even trying to frighten me in some way. Naturally, I would panic, seeing this uninvited intruder standing so close to me, not saying a word, not letting me know what his intentions were, not letting me know whether he was friend or foe. So, I would try to chant. But, being that my body was paralyzed, I could only chant in my mind, and I would then awaken within a few seconds. If I immediately returned to sleep, it would happen again, unless I played a bhajan of Srila Prabhupada on my tape player. I also recall that while residing in a Temple once, I heard very loud, very malicious, and very real laughter, while taking a snap during the brahma-muhurta hour. Didn't see anyone, but definitely heard someone on another "plane". A couple of weeks ago I had an experience of someone tapping my shoulder while I was asleep, (again, during the brahma-muhurta hour, give or take), although I didn't see anyone at that time. However, just 2 or 3 nights ago, I saw a new ghost, (or perhaps the same ghost who possibly has the ability to change his/her form?) sitting down in the chair which was located just next to my bedding. This time, the form was that of an old woman with a full head of grey hair, smiling. She didn't make any threatening moves towards me, but clearly she, like the old naked man, was trying to frighten me, being that she was way too close for comfort. Obviously, a respectful guest to my room would at least stand or sit from a distance, and make some attempt to announce him or her self. Again, panic would set in, and the only way I could escape from the experience was to chant in my mind. I tend to agree that these beings or ghosts do in fact feed off of fear. However, I've been curious to experiment to see what may happen if I can somehow or other refrain from panicking and confront the ghost face to face, not letting it feed off of my fear. He/she may have the advantage, being more familiar with the astral plane than myself, but I am thinking that I could always awaken if needed, by mentally chanting, should the situation become too unpleasant. But if I could confront the entity face to face, in the astral plane, (or whatever you wish to call it), perhaps I could make it leave simply by asking it to leave. Or perhaps I could ask this entity exactly what it is he or she wants, and whether he or she has entered my private quarters as friend or foe. Who knows, it may be some sort of guardian angel. I don't know. I have read some literature on astral projection and I do know that it takes some time and experience in the astral plane to develop one's astral senses, such as sight, sound, touch, etc. So, who knows, maybe my fear is unfounded. Maybe guardian angels, if they do indeed exist, need to be in very close proximity to the physical body. My gut feeling is that these aren't guardian angels, but merely disembodied entities, who have nothing better to do than to hover around someone's sleeping body, perhaps due to a desire to possess the body, or perhaps out of some sort of twisted need to feed off of someone's fear. Maybe fear gives them strength. If that is true, then perhaps the opposite is also true---maybe courage, love, compassion, or some other positive emotion will weaken the ghost's powers, if any, and drive it away. Or, maybe the ghost is simply lonely and wants someone to talk to, who knows? On a slightly different note, my sister has said that she has had experiences where her body has become paralyzed while sleeping and that she was "abducted by aliens." So, I don't know what to think. Maybe there are different types of "ghosts". Some could be lonely, disembodied entities, perhaps "friendly ghosts". Others could be brahma rakshasas, some could be aliens, others could be demons, maybe even yamadutas, given the ghastly descriptions of these beings that other devotees have shared. Just speculating of course. But, it appears that most devotees have had similar experiences, to one degree or another. And, since I am currently living in an old house, where generations of families have lived, I am curious as to exactly what it is I am experiencing. And wondering if it is safe to enter the astral plane to boldly confront these entities and question them as to their intent. Any further input from others regarding their astral or ghostly experiences would be interesting and helpful. Hare Krsna rishidas

Wow.

Hello again, Suryaz! I'm not sure what you are referring to by "violence" here. I wasn't aware of committing any violent acts towards women, let alone justifying such behaviour. Perhaps you could elaborate? As far as "shifting focus", actually, the focus was on myself. Again, if I may politely mention, you have taken my statements out of context and are extracting quite a different meaning than what was intended. In my conversation with Mother Jayaradhe, I was elaborating on my hesitancy to re-enter marriage, based upon the fact, as well as my fears, that I may very well be a source of disappointment to a prospective mate, based in part upon the example given above regarding my ex-fiance. I was sharing a personal example of how men have feelings as well, that men are vulnerable to feeling deep hurt as well, that men are also susceptible to experiencing the "once bitten twice shy" syndrome which many of the women have expressed, which has caused them to become cynical about the prospects of ever finding a compatible marriage partner in this lifetime. I was sharing an example of how I was unable to fulfill my fiance's expectations of me as her "protector". Perhaps the word "seduce" was inappropriate or in bad taste. If it has offended you, and apparently others, I apologize. The point was not to attack her or to cast her as some sort of "mayadevi" because of our falldowns, but to illustrate how I was faulted, blamed, belittled, and eventually tossed away like a piece of garbage because I did not possess the spiritual strength to resist her charms and to protect her from her own natural desires. May I kindly ask you what your gender is? Mother Madhavi dasi has assumed that you are a woman, and one who has suffered some abuse, and she has kindly requested that I be like a spongue if you feel the need to lash out at me as you have. I am more than willing to allow you this, if it will help heal your wounds. But first, I would like to know if in fact you are in a female body. To be honest, I have assumed from your writing, (perhaps falsely so), that you are a man. I am not at all trying to pry into your personal life, and I do respect any wishes you may have to remain anonymous. However, I think if we are to continue in this discussion, it would be helpful if I at least knew your gender. Thankyou, rishidas

Thankyou for your kind words, Suryaz. I was just catching up on all the posts here and ready to reply in length to Mother JayaRadhe dasi's excellent, well-thought out postings. But I was very surprised to see this attack. As JRdd has pointed out, it is beneficial to view these discussions from various viewpoints. Thus, I attempted, (rather miserably it appears), to add some food for thought, based upon my own experiences and from observing the experiences of others. It appears that you are reading into my words what you will. It is a shame, as these are rather sensitive matters to discuss openly, (perhaps confidentially would be best, as Maitreya prabhu seems to be hinting.) I am willing to accept correction, (if I have erred) as well as some degree of reasonable and mild chastisement. (I have no interest in continuing this dialogue openly if such hostile attacks are to continue.) Not out of humility, (if I were actually humble, I would probably just ignore this attack instead of trying to defend myself!), but with a sincere mood of attempting to address many of these important issues, (which all too often seem to degrade into either extreme mysogeny or it's opposite, unrelenting male-bashing, neither of which will serve any positive, constructive purpose for illuminating the topic under discussion.) As far as your example above, no, I was not at all blaming my fiance for the falldowns. If anything, she was by far the better devotee, being that she felt more guilty and depressed about the falldowns than did I. For that, I respect her, and am able to understand why she would feel the need to find a scapegoat, to blame me for the falldowns. Yes, I did use the word "seduce". But I did not mean that in the sense that I was blaming her or faulting her in any way. I clearly mentioned that the falldowns were mutual. Yes, I was seduced several times, and there is no need for me to go into any further detail about this. But I was not angry with her, nor was I blaming her, nor have I ever blamed her. I *allowed* myself to be seduced, and as they say, "it takes two to tango." The difference was, I didn't scapegoat her, nor did I blame her or become angry with her for the falldowns. I was not disappointed with her, nor did I consider her to be any less of a devotee because of the falldowns. I did not lash out at her for the falldowns, nor did I harrass her or try to humiliate her in any way. I didn't accuse her of being some sort of "mayadevi", nor did I lose respect for her as a devotee and as my friend and fiance. My mood was that we pick ourselves back up and get on with our devotional service. In striking contrast, her mood was to become so utterly depressed, morose, and disappointed over the falldowns that she would become bitter with me, greatly disappointed in me, holding a heavy grudge, that I was not strong enough to "protect her" from the falldowns, and I would therefore become the scapegoat, which as JRdd has pointed out, was simply denial. After the engagement was broken off, (her decision), she bad-mouthed me pretty good to the devotee community we were connected with. I was described by her to be nothing but a rascal, and someone who had "one thing on his mind, and one thing only." I honestly do not believe that this was an accurate depiction of our engagement. Nor do I believe that it was proper to publicly scapegoat me as she did. I was attached to her, and was trying to make the relationship work, and despite what you may think of me, was quite heartbroken that our friendship/engagement ended as it did. Yet despite all this, I easily forgave her, as I know that these were nothing more than knee-jerk reactions to her despondency over breaking the regulative principles while in my rotten association. I've never thought of myself as a mysogenist, as you say. In fact, 20 years ago, when most husbands were ordering their wives around to "do this", "do that", "get me this", "get me that", I used to try to encourage my friends to ask nicely, instead of ordering and demanding, often treating their wives like slaves. I'm sorry you have misunderstood my words. I wonder if this isn't a result of your own conditioning? There are, after all, people who are outright male-bashers and truly believe that 95% of the devotee men are incorrigible abusers of women. While I fully acknowledge that abuses and mistreatment have been committed, I also like to think that most devotee men, in my age group anyway, (note that I use the word devotee here, as I am not referring herein to those who may externally *appear* to be devotees) have matured over the years and have perhaps learned some valuable lessons, the hard way, (usually through painful divorces) that if they want a happy marriage, they'd better get their act together and treat their wives with honor, love, and respect. I am by no means a humble devotee. Nor did I ever state or try to convey that I was a "protector". Quite the opposite, I failed miserably in protecting my fiance from our falldowns, as I have already admitted. (Is it possible that you are the one who is "manipulating" the language here?) But I am trying to be honest in these discussions. If I'm going to be viciously attacked while speaking honestly, as I try to share my input as JRdd has asked us to, then I will have to agree with Maitreya prabhu that some things are probably best discussed confidentially. To Mother Jaya Radhe prabhu, I apologize, but I have temporarily lost interest in adding to the discussion, at least for today, despite the fact that I had just returned home from work all ready to reply in depth. At this time, all I can offer in the way of a reply is that I greatly *greatly* appreciate your deep and thoughtful insights and realizations. Especially on the subject of love, friends and/or mates giving of themselves freely with Krsna at the center. Your quotes from Scott Peck were much appreciated, although I have never read his material before. But I do share these ideals, as much as I may have fallen short of the mark in the past. Begging for forgiveness for any offenses commmitted, The most deplorable, rishidas [This message has been edited by rishidas (edited 09-25-2001).]

Dear Dasanudas prabhu and Jaya Radhe prabhu, All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga. Thankyou both so very much for your warm encouragement and friendly words. I will definitely try to stay on board. Actually, Suryaz' attack didn't bother me much at all, except in the sense that I had to take the time to reply/clarify my words at the expense of replying to JRdd's wonderful posts, which I am already several days late in responding to. I consider this to be an important thread here, being that it attempts to address the situation of estranged or isolated devotees around the world who have little or no personal sanga with their godbrothers and godsisters. Also the protection and care for devotee women, who may no longer have any sort of protection available, whether from family or Temple communities. Will write more later, although it may be a few days (again.) In friendship, rishidas

Dear Mother Jaya Radhe dasi, I just now read your reply to my earlier posting. I thank you for your warm, heartfelt, honest, compassionate, and Krsna Conscious reply. I was touched. I am unable to do justice by replying to such a nice message at this time, mostly due to time constraints. I will hopefully be able to reply at a later time, perhaps within a few days. But again, thankyou so much. It is a rare treat to see such friendly Krsna Conscious personalism in cyberspace. For so long, most of what I saw on the VNN forums and a couple of other sites was just impersonal bickering. (And I must admit that I was also guilty of engaging in this myself.) How refreshing to be able to share a heartfelt exchange for once. I hope my posting from earlier today (which you stated you hadn't yet read) wasn't in bad taste or offensive to you or anyone else. Haribol, rishidas

Seems there are 2 separate topics being discussed on this thread now. But if I may divert this back (temporarily) to the original topic... It is very enlivening to learn that even a few compassionate words in cyberspace can provide a soothing, healing effect on our wounded hearts. You raise a valid point regarding men being qualified both spiritually and materially before entering into married life. This hits home quite effectively as it pertains to my own fears/hesitations in pursuing marital bonds (both in the past and in the present.) However, I might also add that in my own experience, as well as in observing the experiences of many of my godbrothers, it is often the case that one may be qualified spiritually, but not materially. Or vice versa. Or even that he may be qualified in both ways, but there may be some mild shortcomings which may be a source of disappointment for his wife. For instance, I have a dear friend who has faithfully provided for his wife and family for 2 decades, being the sole wage-earner of the family. (Keeping in mind that in this day and age, it generally requires 2 incomes to support a household.) And at the same time, he is a pukka brahmana who follows the 4 regs, chants his rounds, and studies scripture, encouraging his family members to do the same. His wife loves to travel to various festivals and places of pilgramage, and my friend always seems to somehow find a way to scrape up the money to finance these trips, even if he is unable to accompany her due to the demands of work. And yet, at one point just after returning home from one of her trips, she exploded on her husband viciously, lashing out with anger that was extremely hurtful and senseless. You see, her husband, not being perfect, (who is!), has this "defect" of being somewhat shy. He is not so much inclined to give public classes or lead public kirtans, despite the fact that he is quite eloquent and has quite a melodious voice. She faulted him for not being "like the other men." But of course, who can say what "defects" the other men may have which would offset their outgoing natures, (which I guess is an attractive quality to women.) The point being, I think that sometimes devotee women may be setting their expectations just a bit too high. Most of the devotee men I know are sensitive and caring souls, and are quite dedicated to their wives and families. Still, there is disappointment. But I suppose that is the nature of this material world. I had an experience many, many years ago of having an engagement with a nice devotee lady. As is quite often the case when men and women associate together closely, falldowns are sometimes inevitable. In my own case, although infrequent, they were mutual. Afterwards, I would have to endure some heavy chastisement because I failed to "protect" her from her lust, that it was my duty to prevent any falldown, no matter how seducing or lusty she may have been. That I was directly responsible for her breaking the regulative principles. My "fire and butter" analogy was rejected outright. I was "the man" and I was supposed to "protect". Well, okay, so I decided I would muster up all the strength that I could, to not allow myself to be seduced. I would prove to her that I cared enough about her to "protect" her from her lust, even though my own spiritual strength was quite pathetic, to say the least. So, when the next "encounter" was about to happen, I didn't allow it to go further than a simple hug. The result? She became furious, and refused to speak to me for a period of time, thinking that I no longer found her to be attractive or desirable. It was a no-win situation. Another example: A good friend of mine was faithfully married for many years (despite the fact that his wife had strained the marriage by once having had a brief affair with another man during their marriage). They had their occassional falldowns, (as is often the case), and the wife, like my ex-fiance, always blamed her husband. At one point, she even left him completely, to re-join the brahmacarini ashram, ultimately divorcing him. The result? Within a year, she had left the ashram to become a cocktail waitress and was sleeping freely with many karmi men, and taking cocaine. She was obviously a lusty woman, and clearly would have been better off sticking by the side of her loving husband, neophyte weaknesses and all. JRdd's point about the karma thing was right on, I might add. It's worth repeating: Sincerely, rishidas

Hare Krsna JayaRadhe dasi, I appreciated your thoughtful and heartfelt expression of the need for devotees, especially those who are now estranged from the Temples and isolated around the world, finding personal association with one another. As we grow older, it seems that old friends gradually drift away due to various circumstances...attrition, if you will. Myself, I've more or less been content living single, mostly due to habit, although I'm certainly not without desires for association, companionship, and basic human affection. There's a part of me that feels that I would be greatly benefitted by having the association of a like-minded Vaishnavi. Another part of me, however, feels that I may just wind up committing offenses, or being a source of eventual disappointment to a potential Vaishnavi companion. Probably this fear has prevented me from actively pursuing such association, especially as I grow older. You sound like someone who has very much to offer in the way of companionship. I know for myself, living alone, I often eat bhoga, (out of laziness), which of course is sinful. But I know that were I married or were I to have the good fortune of daily association with a devotee friend, (or friends), that this friendship would save me from eating bhoga. I consider honoring prasadam to be such a critical and vital aspect of our Krsna Consciousness development and growth. Sadly, it is rather difficult to link up with like-minded mates these days, when most of us are isolated from one another. Sadder still that direct disciples of Srila Prabhupada must spend their final 20 or 30 years alone and isolated, when very possibly their association could very well have been beneficial for one another. I fully empathize with your situation. Women are not alone in this. For men, we also have the added pressure of the possible "embarrassment" of female association, as we have been taught for so many years that household life should be finished as we reach or approach the age of 50. On the other hand, there are extenuating circumstances these days which I feel should make it socially acceptable for allowing middle-age devotees to strike up relationships for the sake of obtaining sanga. (Especially when the alternative is utter isolationism.) It's a real dilemma. And it's sad. Very sad. Don't really have much else to add at this time, but just wanted to share a couple of my own thoughts on this topic which you have raised. ys, rishidas