karthik_v
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Posts posted by karthik_v
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Originally posted by amanpeter:
karthik_v, In this world the struggle for existence continues on all levels, like it or not. The freedoms we enjoy to discuss these matters over the internet or to practice our spiritual/religious beliefs, etc. etc. are only available due to the sacrifices and/or struggles of others. For certain things, I will fight viciously and to-the-death. This present war is one of them.
Perhaps your `higher` philosophical points can be addressed later, prabhu, if we're still in one piece. Right now, it's us against them. I am firmly convinced of the differences as well as the need to support our side wholeheartedly. Perhaps a visit to Afghanistan or some similar `culture` might help to convince you. Freedoms won at great expense can be so easily and quickly lost. Will you, or any of us for that matter, be in a position to regain them?
You might want to read the post on another thread about the treatment of women, including disfigurement by acid attacks, or are such incidents and the belief systems they are a product of, not important to you? Perhaps this too can be blamed on America?
Aman Peter Prabhu,
I am not taking a lopsided stand against the US and I have been dead against organized Islam, if you had read my other posts in other threads. Second, I am all for freedom and wouldn't lose it by any means. So, I am with you if you want to eliminate the Islamic terrorists.
But, I would be happier if Islamic terrorism itself is eliminated. Because, you can always eliminate one Islamic terrorist and produce 20 more. That would be counter-productive. The answer is to eliminate Islamic terrorism along with the terrorists.
Also, many don't realize the level to which these Islamic terrorists have penetrated countries like India and the USA. I am from India and I have seen it at grass-roots level. I have lived in Kashmir during the peak of militancy and know how they operate. Have you ever thought how they may strike back if the USA and its allies launch a war on Afghanistan? Imagine the possibility of an Islamic terrorist, exploding a vial of ebola or anthrax virus on top of a high-rise building. That will kill millions in days.
Also, several thousands of former-Soviet scientists have been rendered jobless after the USSR fell apart. They are ready to work for the highest bidder..I believe many already do. So, destructive technology is not out of the reach of these Islamic terrorists. And the recent attacks on WTC showed that they don't even need technology to be highly destructive.
That is why I feel a pragmatic approach is better than jingoism. That is why I stated that we should also rectify those policies pursued by the USA that would spawn future terrorists.
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Originally posted by Maitreya:
I think Saddam started a war in Kuwait karthik_v.Also they have been allowed to sell enough oil to take care of basic human needs but somehow it doesn't seem to filter down from the top.Saddam gased the Kurdish population in Iraq.Was that also the fault of the US?I also find it interesting in your attempt to take the broad view,[which is the right approach I believe]you neglect to mention the innocent victims in Isreal who have died via these suicide bombers.
Please explain how the US is responsible for lives lost in India.
Tibet?Might be more fair to blame the Chinese.
Sudan?Are you refering to Clinton's destroying that chemical plant?We do owe the world an apology for Clinton.
I didn't vote for him but on behalf of my misguided countrymen,I apologize.
By watching the Taliban and Osama we see they are religious fanatics to a far extreme.
Given the chance what do you think they would have in plan for India?
Hare Krishna
Maitreya,
Hare Krishna.
Saddam certainly is a criminal for invading Kuwait and I have no sympathies for him. But, the US carpet bombed their cities going by intelligence reports on Saddam's purported hide-outs. Many targets destroyed included hospitals and water-supplies. Contaminated water caused many an epidemic and even mild illnesses like gastroenteritis killed hundreds of children as medicines and hospitals were non-existent. I think such a large scale and sustained retaliation was disproportionate, more so as it failed to eliminate Saddam and caused misery to the civilians. Some sanctions were relaxed past 1998 and even if Saddam hadn't usrurped that money it was too little to rehabilitate the millions in Iraq.
China committed more atrocities in Tibet..it still does. But the USA never retaliated against them like they did against Iraq. Instead they sold them weapons and fighter planes. And gave them MFN status. Is it because Kuwait is a rich ally worth defending and Tibet a poor wretch?
For 21 years India has been furnishing evidence against Sikh and Islamic militants who operate from the US and Canada and destabilize India. But, the US never even extradited them on the grounds that there was not enough evidence. Also, the US sold arms and funded Pakistan, which in turn trained these militants. USA did that because all along Pakistan was an ally to fight the USSR and they were also buying arms from the USA. So, quest for economic gains indirectly destabilized India.
I am dead against Islamic terrorism. India, like Israel, has suffered a lot at their hands. I have lived in Israel and I sympathise with them and not the Islamic terrorists. I also believe that Islamic terrorism exists independent of what the USA does.
The reason I am taking a broader approach is that the US foreign policies are also fuelling Islamic terrorism. It strengthens the fundamentalists and alienates moderates among Muslims. If I were a Muslim and I see the US carpet bombing Iraqi children, I guess I am unlikely to sympathise with the US. Similarly, the decades old US policy of "horses for the courses" has weakened stable democracies like India..which should be a natural ally of the US.
The US has often propped up dictator regimes (Pakistan is a case in point) and that has led to terrorism directly.
That is why I belive that the problem should be approached openly. There is no doubt that we should eliminate the Islamic terrorists but we should also eliminate terrible policies and actions on the part of the USA that groom such terrorists. Otherwise, we will eliminate one Osama but create many more.
I hope being open doesn't make me sound like anti-US, which I am not. In fact I believe that US is the haven for peaceful ideals.
As far their plans for India, I think already Osama has a presence in Kashmir. The recent attacks of LeT are proof of this. He has also stated that after the USA, India is his #2 enemy. Now, if the USA attacks them with Pakistani support, I think they will step up more attacks on India. More so, to divert the attention of the Pakistani people who are anti-US and pro-Afghan.
Your servant,
Karthik
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Originally posted by shvu:
Have you ever seen any just statements about scientists, come forth from a iskcon devotee? Scientists are dumb, good_for_nothing idiots with their "imperfect senses". Instead of simply accepting the stories in the holy books as true, like any person with "good sense" and "perfect senses" will do, they are attempting to rationalize things such as genetics, for instance. Can they possibly get any dumber than this?
In brief, a scientist is a rascal and fool number one.
Cheers
[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 09-17-2001).]
Far from that. There are many scientists in ISKCON itself, but the difference is these people search for the truth and don't want to restrict themselves to doctrines. On the other hand, many mainstream scientists are highly dogmatic and have agendas. A case in point is the recent opposition to Astrology courses in the Universities, by Indian scientists.
Their only opposition was that astrology doesn't fit into modern scientific logic, but they couldn't explain how an astrologer can predict even one incident correctly. My argument is if astrologers can even predict 10% of the future, then there has to be a science behind that..so an open mind should explore that. But most scientists won't.
So, who is close minded? ISKCON or the mainstream scientists?
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Aman Peter,
I am against any form of terrorism, but I believe in logical thinking and not jingoism. May be it is time to think if the foreign policies of the USA, created this kind of terrorism. For years, the USA propped up successive dictator regimes in many Islamic countries and in Africa, to serve their own economic ends. The USA trained and armed Osama to teeth. And all these years, many countries including India and Tibet were bled, either directly or indirectly, due to these foreign policies.
Since 1992, Saddam claims, 1.5 million lives have been lost in Iraq due to US attacks and sanctions. His numbers may be exaggerated, but the fact is while the attacks on WTC seem spectacular, more lives have been lost in Iraq, Palestine, India, Tibet, Sudan etc. due to US policies and attacks.
In my opinion, any form of terrorism is abominable...whether it is terrorism in the name of Islam or terrorism in the name of democracy.
Let us work on stopping both. Otherwise, in a vicious cycle, one breeds the other.
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Always take these predictions with a pinch of salt. Everytime an event occurs, Nostradamus is interpreted by the publishers to suit the event. In reality, his writings were so abstract that you can't make head or tail out of them. And they are not specific.
I would have had some regard had someone published this even 1 day before the disaster.
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Always take these predictions with a pinch of salt. Everytime an event occurs, Nostradamus is interpreted by the publishers to suit the event. In reality, his writings were so abstract that you can't make head or tail out of them. And they are not specific.
I would have had some regard had someone published this even 1 day before the disaster.
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Satyaraja,
Are you not an expert at taking words out of context, expand them and render an altogether different meaning? And when this cannot serve your purpose, you invent things on your own, don't you?
Coming to your point on 'enemies', Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya warns aspiring devotees of associating with non-believers as that would be detrimental their own progress. It doesn't ask them to regard them as enemies.
Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:
karthik_v: He never said that we should treat 'others' as enemies.
Satyaraj: Yes, Prabhupada was actually a self-made acarya and did not follow his preceptorial line, isn’t? Because Bhaktivinoda has recommended to madhyama-bhaktas to consider some (most) people as enemies. Just read Jaiva-dharma’s chapter 8 on “Vaisnava Behavior” and you may check it out by yourself.
It is an established doctrine in Gaudiya-vaisnavism that non-believers should be considered as enemies. Your own society mirrors this precept and you cannot disguise it too much.
[This message has been edited by Satyaraja dasa (edited 09-12-2001).]
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Leyh and Satyaraj,
Here are my response to your posts:
Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:
For certain the method of punishment wasn’t mentioned by him. It could be a simple danda or something worse than that... Maybe to force the infractor to kneel down on corn grains and to chant 16 rounds of harinama for example!
My response:
Satyaraja Dasa, if SP didn't specify the details of punishment, then why do you go about speculating? In this case, SP was talking of a generic scenario and not a particular case. So, if someone doesn't follow the scriptures then he will face suffering as per the law of Karma..and that would be his punishment. I would like to point out to you that in Lilamruta SP has clearly stated (in generic terms again) that our sufferings are as per the laws of karma. As far the reference to the king goes, SP has clearly stated on many occasions that a king should rule by the smritis, should be guided by detached brahmanas, should be righteous and caring for his citizens. Since our scriptures never declare anyone to be a 'kafir' or recommend 'jihad' or 'fatwa', you can be sure that SP was not even hinting at terrorist attack on non-believers. Even in case of those who violate the peace in society by abominable acts, the smritis prescribe punishment only after civil trial. So, please stop speculating.
Dear Leyh, you stated:
I think there is no difference between a person who is truly Allah Conscious and one who is truly Krsna Conscious.:
My response:
I think you are also making a sweeping generalization. A Muslim doesn't know the qualities that make Allah. In fact they don't even believe that Allah has a form. So, how can anyone be Allah-conscious? I think many devotees, as you have done, go over-board equating KC with 'Allah-consciousness'. This is not correct. While there may be some good aspects in Islam, since conception its history is replete with violence against non-Muslims and intolerance. And these started with the Prophet himself. On the other hand, the vedic systems, whether vaishnava or advaita, and Buddhism have been civil, non-aggressive, introspective and tranquil. So, let us not try to equate all faiths in a vain attempt to please all and sundry.
Satyaraj: Yes. Now you are right! A person who is really Allah-conscious would say that Americans are under the rule of Satan and should be converted, punished or eliminated. A person who is really Krsna-conscious would say that Americans are under the spell of Maya and should be converted, punished or eliminated, as they are classified by their leader as rascals, demons, karmis, atheists, and so on.
My response:
Satyaraj Dasa, our leader SP certainly called them all that. But where did he say that they should be eliminated? In fact SP clearly stated that the principle of KC is so pure and high that its success should not be measured by numbers. This shows that he was aware that in the given situation KC devotees will be only a few in number. He never said that we should treat 'others' as enemies. He in fact urged that we should extend KC to them by all means, including singing kirtans, dancing, tasty prasadam etc...so that atleast in tasting one of the above he may chant the holy name of Krishna. I hope the message is clear to you now. I hope you have read his conversations with George Harrison, then a struggling neo-phyte. SP clearly tells GH that despite all the external problems what really matters is chanting the holy name. SP also clearly stated that KC is not sectarian. So, please stop making slanderous generalizations.
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Hare Krishna Brahma Das,
Your ideas of accomodating the 'social norms' to enhance the reach of KC are amazing. Well, the church tried all that..they turned a deaf ear to divorce, turned a blind eye to homosexuality, turned speechless on abortion as all these were 'social norms'. What is the result? Has it turned the multitudes of westerners into devout Christians?
No, my friend. It just eliminated whatever religion was left in their lives.
By the way, who told you that KC is a numbers game?
Regards,
Karthik
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Dear Audarya lila:
Here are my responses to your points.
Audreya stated:
Jndas, you said on the other thread that you feel it is only the samshtapaka-acharya who can make adjustments to teachings according to time, place and circumstance. Can you provide any sastric evidence for such a statement? You have said that the acharya must follow and has no ability to make adjustments - otherwise he is a pretender. Again, I ask you where is the sastric evidence supporting this statement.
My answer:
In BG Lord Krishna tells Arjuna that he had spoken the same words of BG many times before..he spoke them to Vivaswan millions of years ago. Now he is speaking the same words to Arjuna.
That answers your point. Krishna didn't change the words to suit the time, place and circumstance. That is because the vedic teachings emanate from Krishna and are eternal. So, an acarya doesn't change the teachings either. He simply repeats them.
Audreya wrote:
Acharya means to teach by example. If the acharya is not competent to make adjustments according to time, place and circumstance what is the meaning to his teaching or of his functioning as a teacher? If he is not competent to make adjustments, he certainly is no teacher. I'll give you a mundane example. I am a biochemist and I have occasion to train others in such things as protein purification. I don't teach others based on the 'exact' methods I was first taught. I teach based on principles which must be applied to changing technology and advances in science.
My answer:
You are speculating as to the qualities of an acarya. As for you example for bio-chemistry thanks for admitting that you are teaching mundane science. Such a teaching is ephemeral and has to be adjusted to the changing times. But, spiritual science is transcendental to time and is eternal. So, it has to be presented as it is.
Audreya wrote:
The spiritual master teaches spiritual principles and is an expert at applying these principles according to time, place and circumstance. There will always be a need for advanced devotees to apply the principles according to changing times and to reinvigorate the tradition and make the teaching relevant to the generation at hand.
My answer:
You are again speculating. Let me give you an anology. If I am obese, a true instructor will ask me to work out at a gym and get back to shape as that is good for me. On the other hand an instructor who suggests that I am 'normal' and I change my lifestyle to suit my obesity is a rascal. Likewise, a true acarya always goes by the teachings of Krishna, even if they seem anachronistic. They seem anachronistic only because we have fallen so much from the spiritual standards. He tells them to get their acts together and get back to the high ideals of vedic teachings. On the other hand a 'guru' who makes amendments to play to the gallery of 'devotees' and justifies their fallen position is to be avoided.
Audreya wrote:
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was prepared to serve meat to guests in order to get them to hear the message of Lord Chaitanya.
My response:
What proof do you have in support of this?
Audreya wrote:
Our vision is limited
My response:
Certainly yours is. But it can improve if you stick to the original teachings of Srila Prabhupad.
Regards,
Karthik
Hello
in The Hinduism Forum
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DEAR CHRIS and SATYARAJA DASA:
Satyaraja Das has made some nice points. It is true that the Supreme Lord manifests both in personal and impersonal forms. But in BG Lord Krishna himself says that of all forms of yoga Bhakti yoga or devotional surrender is the best. Also this is the path with few pitfalls.
I would like to give an anology in this context. A child surrenders to his mother instinctively. She takes care of all his needs and protects him. This allows the child to be care-free. This also ensures that the child progresses through his childhood safely under the sure protection of his mother.
On the other hand, the child may experiment on his own and try to be independent of his mother. But the chances are that most often he will fail. This is because, while the child is ignorant of material knowledge, the mother possesses the same.
Likewise, we jivas (humans) are like an ignorant child and Krishna the all-knowledgeable parent. While speculation may or may not take us to the destination, surrender certainly will.
In BG Lord Krishna says that once we surrender to him he gives us everything we need to go back to him. He gives us intelligence, knowledge, wealth (or takes it away if he feels that would help our devotional service) etc.. and delivers us.
So, where is the need to speculate? Is it not evident that surrender or bhakti yoga is the easiest way to realize the Supreme Truth?