sumedh

Dear roohani sevadhari Good you tried to find the proof in the scriptures. Let us see the verses presented. Srimad Bhagavad-Gita 9.4 The words used here are "avyakta murtina" which means unmanifested Form. The word "murtina" is significant here for it means Form and unmanifested ("avyakta") means that people cannot normally see it. So we do not find "niraakaar" anywhere here which you have put in the translation; on the contrary God clearly says that He has a Form which normally people cannot see, i.e. even in His lila-avataars the normal people cannot see His true Form only a material projection. This is explained clearly by the Lord just a few verses afterwards here: Srimad-Bhagavad Gita 9.11 you said: The first part has been shown to be incorrect. The second part is also incorrect because the Lord says in the sloka that the entire world is pervaded by Him which incidently is also there is your translation ("sab jagat paripoorna hai"). So He is Omnipresent in His Brahmn feature which is the brahmajyoti emanating from Him (brahmano hi pratishthaham -- BG 14.27). But then He also says "na caham teshv avasthitah" in which Krishna actually affirms that although He pervades the universe, He is distinct from it refuting the theory that God is impersonally distributed -- rather "He is not in them". This is elaborated in just the next verse: Srimad Bhagavad-Gita 9.5 Let us see the second verse that you presented. Srimad Bhagavad-Gita 10.3 Here the Lord affirms that He is unborn. This is confirmed in all the Vedic scriptures. The Srimad-Bhagavatam describes the birth of Krishna: From Srimad-Bhagavatam So the Supreme Lord was not born rather appeared in His own Form. But then Mother Devaki requested: So the Lord then appeared as a new born child. Then the last one: The word "nirguna" means without "guna" or meaning without material qualities. Thus the Lord says that He is the SuperSoul (BG 10.20 -- I am the SuperSoul ...) without the material senses, and so is "nirguna". This is clear from the previous verse which gives the context of this quote and provides the complete explanation: So reading both verses makes it plain the meaning.Elsewhere the Lord says: Srimad Bhagavad-Gita 7.24

Hare Krishna Material world is created/destroyed in cycles. Spiritual world is not -- it is Eternal realm where there is no past or future, only the undivided eternal present. From Srimad Bhagavad-Gita you said: The cycle will not stop, but not because the souls will return. It will not stop because the Lord is infinite and consequently there are infinite vibbhinnamsas viz. the infinitesemal jiva souls.

Seems like the bhrama-kumaras have taken a particular liking to this site. Too much time on their hands ... Soul will "vanish" from the material world into the spiritual realm.

Hare Krishna Liberation means Self realization and God realization. This is only your imagination. Moreover, this reasoning fits better for Lekhraj.

Dear roohani sevadhari The scope of your misunderstandings is becoming too large for me to handle. you said: You apply foolish examples to only show your poor understanding of the law or of the Truth. Let me try to give a better example: There is no law which would punish the owner of petroleum refinery plant because a criminal used petrol coming from the plant for his vehicle in which the crime was committed. The jiva soul is utterly incapable of doing anything... in fact it depends completely on the Lord for its mere existence. The source of energy of the material body as well as that of the pure soul is the Supreme Lord.

Dear roohani sevadhari you said: Don't bother searching for the quote for you shall not find it. I save you the trouble; here is the quote which you misrepresented as saying that God causes the miseries. In the thread http://www.hare-krishna.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=HareKrishnaNews&Number=9167 guest said that: and despite having directly asked to back off you again put forward the same statement. You originally said: which was in reply to the above quote. You show a complete lack of integrity, and go off into digressions when this is pointed out. Then you say that: which is besides the point. Moreover the sense of this is not wrong though you may try to twist it. The desire to do right/wrong action is ours but it is God's energy which accomplishes the action i.e. the SuperSoul dwelling in the jivas indirectly helps us fulfil our desires though He is the non-doer. However, in the context of devotion it can be seen to have another meaning. The devotee who has surrendered to the Lord (or wants to) gives up all his desires to be completely in tune with God's desires, so that he has no independent desire.

Dear roohani sevadhari Okay i call your bluff. Produce a quote where someone on this forum (apart from yourself) has said that God causes misery or show it written in some Vedic scripture. If you cannot, then apologize publicly for having spread a lie more than once. Then your cheating tendency is again apparent here: Why? Because you tried to use fossil records to refute the account of scriptures. Then when i remind you that the fossil records also refute lekhraj's theories then you start off in another tangent trying to impose your imaginations upon myself. I also showed that the fossil records do not refute the scriptures (just because fossils have not been found of as old age as given in scriptures, does not mean none can be found in future -- moreover fossilization requires precise conditions which are rarely present) but on the other hand refute your imaginations since they clearly show that humans have been living for more than 5000 years. Have the decency to admit your mistakes.

Dear roohani sevadhari It is quite refreshing to see you refer to scriptures to substantiate what you say, which is quite some progress. However, the quotes you present in fact support what the learned friends on this forum said. What they said is that engaging in devotional service (by the nine processes mentioned in the quote before, primary being chanting of Holy Names) is the best way. This is what the quotes say: Here yogi means a person engaged in bhakti-yoga who fixes his mind on the Supreme Lord. We know this because in 8.22 before this quote the Lord refers to bhakti only. Thus we know He is talking about a bhakta who fixes his mind on Him. Bhagavad-Gita 8.22 Elsewhere the Lord says: Similiarly in the other quotes you have provided, the Lord says that only a devotee can see Him and Arjuna is His dear friend. This is stated clearly in just the next quote: Srimad Bhagavad-Gita 11.54 As you say one cannot reach the Lord by reading vedas, only by devotional service which is performed through the nine processes given before, the primary being the chanting of the Holy Names. you said: He gives the "third eye", as you call it, to His pure devotees; see the quote before. Haribol

Dear roohani sevadhari You again come up with your speculations etc. Whoever said that God commits the sins? You impose your speculations on others and your rumblings are only a source of amusement to others. For instance you say: If God did not make dirt, rapists etc. then did they spring out of nowhere. You are a completely confused individual who cannot distinguish between creating someone and commiting some act. No one said that God commits sins, but definitely He gives birth to the sinner.

Dear roohani sevadhari I never said that incorporeal Shiva is an imagination: what i said that what you make of Lord Shiva as being incorporeal etc. is your own imagination. Your ideas of incorporeal are your imagination; you try to "kill" Lord Shiva in your thoughts by imagining that he has no transcendental body. Shiva-tattva is very complex and would be a whole new topic in itself, but only if you come up with a better attitude. Transcendental is different from normal subtle -- transcendental is subtlest of subtle. So actually the normal non-devotee humans only saw Lord Krishna as possessing a normal human body due to lack of transcendental eyes, while the pure devotees saw the transcendental form with their transcendental eyes. Actually even though the Lord is present everywhere all the time and the pure devotees can see Him, only when He comes as a lila-avataara can the normal humans see Him though they think He has a material body due to their possessing material eyes. The siddhanta is simple -- material eyes can only see a material projection of the Truth. In this context Lord Krishna says: Srimad Bhagavad-Gita 9.11 All i can say is that you have taken to oppose all these direct scriptural statements without any evidence. you said: you imagine anyone to be god, what can be done. Even if the ideas of your god have been shown to be wrong you cling on to them -- as you wish. It may be fashionable to call the accounts given in the vedic scriptures as "outdated", "myths" etc. but does not change the Truth. In their complete understanding none of the Vedic Truths have been shown to be incorrect a wee bit; on the other hand scientists have learned a lot from the vedic knowledge e.g. using sanskrit in AI, vedic mathematics, the latest fad of yogic postures etc.

Dear roohani sevadhari you said: As i said before, if you need to ask do it in a proper way. First off you expose your ignorance of these topics then challange others arrogantly -- do you know how persons with such a kind of behaviour have been described in the scriptures? Anyways the scriptures also give precise descriptions of these planets e.g. that these planets have different time scales. Do we or the scientists have any experience where a world has a different time scale? They do not have because using mechanical means only one level (viz. bhu-mandala, and that too not properly and completely) can be probed. The fourteen planetary systems mentioned in the scriptures are in different planes of existence as can be seen from the different time scales mentioned for them. The bhu-mandala is only composed of the five gross elements (the subtle elements being present only in living beings) while the others are in more subtle and other realms of existence. This is a very complex topic; various puranas give the description of how to move from one plane to another using the sushumna passage, e.g. markandeya purana, which is said to have closed at the start of kali-yuga though there are yogic siddhis which enable one to still go there. Even many modern day yogis claim to be able to go into other realms but their claims should be taken with a grain of salt; however acharyas have confirmed all these so there is no question at least to those who believe in vedic scriptures. See this for an introduction to this: http://nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu/~ghi/vc.html with a sample chapter here: http://nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu/~ghi/vcchap.html Suffice to say that if one is considering the descriptions of the various planetary systems from the scriptures, then one must consider the complete description not try to refute by taking a part of it. When the scientists are able to find a method to move to other planes of existence then they can try to refute it -- till then only say "we do not know" or "we do not know, and do not believe that there are other planes of existence".

Dear roohani sevadhari you said: This is not any quote from Rig Veda, a statement by someone at Adhyatmik... has not value. You need to give the precise reference for this, which richa with the complete quote. A vague reference has not value; why? because all the scriptures directly contradict this. For example see Bhagavad-Gita 7.4

Hare Krishna To some extent yes. See Sripad Madhava's commentary on Bhagavad-Gita (esp. 2.13) for instance. you said: Which has been shown to be wrong according to the scriptures, for Lord Krishna does not possess a corporeal body but a completely transcendental one. As for "incorporeal" Lord Shiva being ajanma, he is born from Lord Brahma and that is the verdict of the scriptures. Your artificial differentiation between shankar and shiva is heard of before, but has not scriptural evidence -- maybe you mean sadashiva. you said: which is only your imagination, for it was the year when Lord Krishna ended His manifested lilas.

Hare Krishna you said: which is also incorrect. The start of Vedic period is untracable; all we have is speculations from modern historians. The Vedic texts have been dated at around 3100BC which is consistent with tradition since before that all the Vedic texts were transmitted by hearing and learning. Srila Vyasadeva seeing the future degradation of memory compiled and wrote them. When you quoted the date of manuscript mahabharata, you did not apply basic facts that manuscripts do not survive for 5000 years; Shankaracharya who lived much before that quotes them (and puranas) frequently in his works. Moreover, there is no proof that your imagined god exists except in your forced imaginations. And you avoided the basic question that humans have been existing for lakhs of years without breaks as is accepted by even archeologists. What you make of that? Actually just forget it; it is pretty clear to me by now that you have just decided to repeat and repeat the same things even if they have been shown to be wrong.

Hare Krishna you said: One is that simply because astronomical evidence is scientifically provable compared to the archeological evidence which keeps changing every year. Second, if you want to live in your fantasies there is little i can do because i have already given links to places which are older than 4000BC according to history. So when you say that the only links i gave are giving astronomical evidence is nothing but a lie. you said: Which only proves that the persons who were being quoted are technically atheists because they do not know abcs of transcendental knowledge and so you should consider them "neutral". Get off your bandawagon, rewind a little and go back to the quotes i gave earlier about Krishna ascending to His abode in His trancendental form as in the scriptures. Don't jump around claiming your victory like a little kid by putting words in my mouth, okay ...

Dear roohani sevadhari You have quite a capacity to write things unrelated to questions again and again. Okay for one last time -- i am asking why does your god send the souls to this drama. I am not asking what happens in this drama and what we should do etc. My simple question is why does your god send the souls here. Is there anything lacking in the soul world? or are the souls not happy there. Another question is that what eventually happens to the souls who did not make "spiritual efforts" after your 5000 years -- do they go back to soul world you say...

Dear roohani sevadhari You again jumped the gun too early instead of trying to understand when you said: Ever heard of subtle matter. It would be a real waste to quote Bhagavad-Gita in this context. Suffice to say that you are confused what is spiritual and what is material. The vedic definition of material is different, viz. that which is not spiritual or subject to change. Spiritual reality is not subject to change while mind/intellect are. btw mind/intellect comes in the scientific definition of matter also though they are unable to define it as such due to the limited scope of current science.

Hare Krishna Vishnu and Krishna are one and the same person, get it... Now if you want to chant Lord Vishnu's name then "Om namo Narayana" or many others are prescribed but manufacturing mantras is not proper and a sign of jumping the scriptures. By the way Krishna and Rama are also Vishnu's Names -- ever heard of Vishnu sahasranama. As for Lord Krishna being the Original Personality or Original Form (one may say the Original Vishnu), this conclusion is presented in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Dear roohani sevadhari It is tiring to say same things again. Whatever you quoted is British era history now proved to be wrong. So do your readings again. I can help you for a start. From http://www.geocities.com/~ramayanam/india_history.htm The astronomical evidence of Vedic texts is irrefutable unless one believes that the writers knew how to solve differential equations. The discovery of the dried up basin of Sarasvati by satellite imagery corroborates it further. From http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/aid/astronomy.html Further many sites dating to 7000 years and earlier have been excavated. For example: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?xml=0&xml=0&art_ID=129602326 What you quoted was only an obsolete version of history held by people who believe in baseless theories like aryan theory decades ago. Then you said: which is incorrect. The traditional date for Mahabharata is 3102BC which has been confirmed from the astronomical evidence given in the Mahabharata (as quoted above). Further poeple of those ages used tools like you mention just like there are tribals even now i.e. they coexisted. The discovery of the submerged city of Dwarka further corroborates the descriptions given in Mahabharata (and all the layers have not yet been exposed). I do not have to go to "forbidden archeology" to dispute your claims which have already been debunked by almost all modern historians. In any case the humans have been around for lakhs of years using the fossil record, so your 5000 year thing is your fantasy to keep supporting your current belief system.

Hare Krishna Mantras cannot be manufactured. They come from the Lord Himself.

Dear Roohani Sevadhari If you need to know these things then you should ask in a humble manner. Unfortunately, you have mistaken conceptions of humility. You mistake duplicity to be humility. How do we know that? Because you say many times "Kindly enlighten me" when you actually mean "i have given such and such an objection to your thinking. do you have any answer". You actually do not come to learn anything from here; you do not come to ask but to find non-existent faults in our understanding. I have asked you again and again to first do some reading. You say that you have read Bhagavatam etc., but it is clear that you have not or even if you have, you have not understood whatever you read. The reason was that you read to do fault-finding and not to learn. If you would have read then you would not have wrote junk dealing with dalits etc. to an organization which comes from acharyas who for the first time made so called dalits as acharyas, as also untouchables. You do not realize that sometimes even fools can sometimes speak the truth; even a broken clock is right twice a day. My suggestion is that you should first try the path as shown by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, and then judge for one must judge by the results. The Bhagavatam says (11.8.10): So maybe you should also try to find the beautiful things in the gaudiya conception. I suggest you try chanting the maha-mantra for say three months, for about half an hour daily (one can do this at any time or circumstances). There is nothing more that i can do for you.

Dear Roohani Sevadhari All the incarnations were already mentioned in the scriptures before their appearance, just like now we have the knowledge that Lord Kalki will appear after 427000 years. For example, Mula Ramayana was narrated by Srila Narada Muni to Sage Valmiki before the actual Ramayana. Your logic is astounding! On one hand you claim that god spoke through lekhraj, and then you say that no proof is required. Then for that matter why dont believe me instead of lekhraj?

Dear roohani sevadhari you said: Seems that your god has made some progress albeit slow. But you can come to the true understanding of God slowly but surely if you remain sincere. Anyway, as usual you dodged the question? Why does God not free all of us?. Your answer that i understand is that he is incapable of doing so ...

Dear roohani sevadhari The purport to the earlier sloka was provided to help you understand simple things and the next sloka. Unfortunately it is only a waste of time to write to you. Why? Because you passed a lot of hot gas for the purport that was provided to help you understand. And then when the purport was not provided your lack of understanding of my understanding was obvious. Go back to what i wrote: cutting the tongue means cutting the arguments with arguments from scripture.

Dear Roohani sevadhari You again fail to understand simple things. you said: Even charvakas gave unique knowledge -- so you must observe your own foundations of your faith. Attributing hallucinations of lekhraj to god when he also does not claim it (according to what you say) and arguing with others ... then you said: which was heights of your inapplication of simple intelligence, because it was an illustration that anyone can claim that Lord Shiva has entered him and give "unique" knowledge. Don't believe me -- i can also act that way.