sumedh

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

How can such an insignificant being ever imagine that Srila Jiva Goswami is wrong, only that your interpretation of it is wrong. I will end up saying the same things again, so i just say that these statements are expositions of the abheda aspect and the bheda aspects have been dealt in great details elsewhere. Since you explicitly said that she is vishnu tattva, i can only point you out to the great details in which the differences between energy and energetic have been given everywhere and only the latter is vishnu tattva. There is another instance where Srila Prabhupada explicitly said that Tulasidevi is not offered to even Sri Radha and only to Vishnu tattva Deities (implying that Sri Radha is not vishnu).

In addition, you can find explicit statements of Srila Prabhupada that when we say Krishna then it includes all His energies and not the other way round.

Of course, the explicit statement of Srila BhaktiSiddhanta that those who do not understand other dieties (including Radha/Durga) as His servitors will never get liberation (as given in previous post).

 

The statements of the material energy being just an aspect of the original spiritual energy is understood perfectly well but the prominent thing that is being missed is the distinction with the energetic. Jiva is never called the personal energy, no doubt, but by your logic if the energy is the same as energetic then we can as well worship the energy in the form of matter as being the Supreme Lord. This is explicitly condemned many-a-times by all acharyas. This implies that your statement that there can *only* be two kinds of entities vishnu tattva and jiva tattva is incorrect. The broad categories are -- God, spiritual energy, tatastha/jiva energy, material energy (which is an aspect of the spiritual energy as said). In addition Lord Shiva is not considered jiva tattva but between jiva and vishnu tattva (there is an explicit statement of Srila Prabhupada which i can search and present if you want).

 

The pre-eminence of the vaishnava philosophy is that only the Supreme Lord is worshipped (and Sri Radha, Gurudeva to be admitted as a servitor) -- we worship the Nama prabhu and the Archadeva. It is based on the philosophy of avataaravada; we do not worship/(meditate on) an imagination (e.g. imagining light etc. as some current yogic methods do), or a feeling/thought (as many others contend as being the best), or matter (as in Arya samaj, or meditating on breath), or jiva. Of course, we should be worshipping only the energy alongwith Krishna only as the Spiritual energy to become a servitor, and not mahamaya aspect of it which would lead us away from Krishna (as in the statement of Srila Prabhupada in previous post).

Hare Krishna and dandavats

 

Being a devotee of SwamiNarayana it may be sounding harsh to you, but please read carefully what vijay prabhuji posted. He said that there is a definite "risk" in worshipping SwamiNarayana (if say only the followers made him God) rather than that which is accepted by all acharyas. Nowadays, we are seeing this phenomenon of gods popping all over the place. The main objection is that the followers of SwamiNarayana are violating his own instructions in Shikshapatri which asks them to worship only Krishna; in addition apparently they are not considering the standard Vedic texts, instead only Vachanamruta etc. The philosophy cannot be changed at all from that of the standard Vedic one, and that is what the current followers of the sampradaya are doing -- please correct this if i am wrong.

Hare Krishna

 

This is just saying the form of Sri Krishna Chaitanya as the union of Sri Radha-Krishna.

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

In my opinion, we better not make decisions on our own by reading the books rather consider the conclusions of our Acharyas. Shiva prabhuji thinks that Krishna and Durga are identical according to the opinion of Jiva Goswami. This is what Srila Prabhupada has to say:

 

 

SB 10.1 additional notes

 

To give service to the Lord, yogamaya appeared along with mahamaya. Mahamaya refers to yaya sammohitam jagat, "one who bewilders the entire material world." From this statement it is to be understood that yogamaya, in her partial expansion, becomes mahamaya and bewilders the conditioned souls. In other words, the entire creation has two divisions--transcendental, or spiritual, and material. Yogamaya manages the spiritual world, and by her partial expansion as mahamaya she manages the material world. As stated in the Narada-pancaratra, mahamaya is a partial expansion of yogamaya. The Narada-pancaratra clearly states that the Supreme Personality has one potency, which is sometimes described as Durga. The Brahma-samhita says, chayeva yasya bhuvanani bibharti durga. Durga is not different from yogamaya. When one understands Durga properly, he is immediately liberated, for Durga is originally the spiritual potency, hladini-sakti, by whose mercy one can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead very easily. Radha krsna-pranaya-vikrtir hladini-saktir asmad. The mahamaya-sakti, however, is a covering of yogamaya, and she is therefore called the covering potency. By this covering potency, the entire material world is bewildered (yaya sammohitam jagat). In conclusion, bewildering the conditioned souls and liberating the devotees are both functions belonging to yogamaya.

...

Therefore it is to be concluded that the maya which drags a person from the Supreme Personality of Godhead is called jadamaya, and the maya which acts on the transcendental platform is called yogamaya.

 

 

SB 10.2.11-12 purport

 

Because Krsna and His energy appeared simultaneously, people have generally formed two groups--the saktas and the Vaisnavas--and sometimes there is rivalry between them. Essentially, those who are interested in material enjoyment are saktas, and those interested in spiritual salvation and attaining the spiritual kingdom are Vaisnavas. Because people are generally interested in material enjoyment, they are interested in worshiping Mayadevi, the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Vaisnavas, however, are suddha-saktas, or pure bhaktas, because the Hare Krsna maha-mantra indicates worship of the Supreme Lord's energy, Hara. A Vaisnava prays to the energy of the Lord for the opportunity to serve the Lord along with His spiritual energy. Thus Vaisnavas all worship such Deities as Radha-Krsna, Sita-Rama, Laksmi-Narayana and Rukmini-Dvarakadhisa, whereas durga-saktas worship the material energy under different names.

 

-----------------------

 

The quotes from Srila Jiva Goswami are expositions of the abheda aspect of Lord and His energy. The bheda aspect of distinction between energetic and energy, predominator and predominated, enjoyer and enjoyed have been stressed over and over again. In particular the statement that Durga is God is incorrect, for then at least one of the following has to be shown from the writings of our Acharyas:

-- She is ParaBrahman, Paramatma, Parameshvara

-- She has the six opulences in full as given by Parasara Muni

-- She has all the sixty opulences upto the level of Lord Narayana as mentioned by Srila Rupa Goswami

-- She is visnu tattva

Just mentioning the abheda aspect is not enough. Similiar arguments are made by Advaitins using statements like "He desired to become many" which are expositions of the abheda aspect only and they say precisely the same thing, that advaita is the highest level of understanding and dvaita is the preliminary level.

Sometimes we think that there are probably higher things in the books of our previous acharyas and that Srila Prabhupada has given a preliminary understanding only, but the fact is that he has given the highest and perfect knowledge in his books. He (and other acharyas) has given the clear distinction between Lord Vishnu and other dieties as being His servitors. This is what Srila BhaktiSiddhanta says:

 

"Q: -- What deliberation is there in the Brahma Samhita?

 

A: -- The Brahma Samhita has refuted Pancho-pasana. It is the eternal duty of all jivas to serve Krishna, the Lord of all Lords. All the other deities are His servitors. Their function is only to carry out Govinda's commands. They will never acquire liberation, who conceive of the deities as the different names and bodies of Vishnu instead of knowing them as His servitors. In five Shlokas of the Brahma Samhita have been described the natures of the five deities, named above: (1) "I (i.e., Brahma) adore the Primaeval Lord Govinda, in pursuance of whose order the Sun-God, the King of the planets and the eye of this world, performs his journey mounting the wheel of Time." [23] (2) "I adore the Primaeval Lord Govinda, Whose Lotus-like Feet are always held by Ganesa on the head in order to obtain power for his function of destroying all the obstacles of the three worlds." [24] (3) "I adore the Primaeval Lord Govinda, in accordance with whose will Durga, His external potency, conducts her function as the creating, preserving and destroying agent of the world" [25] (4) "I adore the Primaeval Lord Govinda, Who transforms Himself as Sambhu for performing the work of destruction, just as milk is transformed into curd which is neither the same as, nor different from, milk" [26] (5) "I adore the Primaeval Lord Govinda, Who manifests Himself as Vishnu in the same manner as one burning candle communicates its light to another candle which, though existing separately, is of the same quality as the first. [27]"

 

There is also no provision for worshipping Goddess Durga in the Vaishnava philosophy except for facilitating devotional service to Lord Krishna. For these reasons the comparison drawn between Krishna/MahaVishnu and Radha/Durga is incorrect.

Hare Krishna

 

In addition to the purports posted above, i would say the following.

 

 

Reincarnation means FUSION OF BRAHMAN into a body form. LORD KRSNA if comes back alive is NOT SUPPOSED TO COME BACK IN THE SAME BODY FORM, according to the principle of MOKHA. WHY? LORD KRSNA is already in MOKSHA 24/7 or all the time.

 

 

 

This is completely wrong. You think that the Supreme Lord takes on a material body!!! No, as explained in the purports the body of the Supreme Purusha is ever transcendental sat-chit-ananda (just like material bodies are sattva-rajas-tamas) with full spiritual senses and He never comes under the influence of the material world. Of course, the normal conditioned soul does not see the transcendental form rather just a shadow form which appears material to them and so this foolish theory of Brahman fusing into a body form.

 

What is this "principle of moksha" which you are referring to?

Hare Krishna

 

 

No 'problem' but

Hare Krshna is a mantra propagated by Chaityanya

 

"Swaminarayan" is the mahamantra propagated by Lord Sahajanand Swami. In substitution of that there is the ashtakshara mantra

Krshna t**m gatira m***

in the Swaminarayan faith...but not hare krshna.

 

 

 

Yes, the Hare Krishna mahamantra is propagated by Lord Chaitanya which is mentioned in the Vedic texts including Kali-Santarana Upanishad, Brahmanda Purana, Brahma Yamala, Ananta Samhita, Sanata Kumar Samhita etc. and also referred to in Padma Purana. It is coming from Lord Brahma (originally from Lord Narayana) in the Brahma-Madhva gaudiya sampradaya. In places this has been called the confidential mantra but Lord Chaitanya gave it to one and all and by His grace this has now been propagated far and wide. Because no one can create mantras, which can only come from the Supreme Lord, hence this objection. If you can provide a reference to this in any of the Vedic texts no one will have an objection.

The ashtakshara mantra of Sri Krishna is definitely accepted and no one would have an objection if the followers of SwamiNarayana would be following the Shikshapatri instead of giving convoluted arguments like:

-- the Krishna referred to in Shikshapatri is Swaminarayana (this is nonsense; in Bhagavad Gita the Lord always refers to Himself in First Person -- so the Lord refers to Himself in First Person and not in third Person open to all kinds of speculations; even if this be the case by a stretch of imagination better follow the instructions which by your belief are coming from the Supreme Lord and so are beyond errors, than create any number of interpretations)

-- Swaminarayana is the avataarii and all others are avataars (need unambiguous Vedic evidence for such a claim)

 

Please note that this is independent of whether or not Sahajananda Swami is an incarnation of Supreme Lord.

Hare Krishna

 

 

Will karmic reaction punish you for this? In my opinion - yes. Will God punish you for this? In my opinion - no - you acted according to your capacity and intelligence.

 

 

 

Yes, God does not deal directly with the material nature; so karmic reaction is an indirect "punishment" from God.

 

 

I did read it. Many times, many different versions. Final verdict - "Do Your Duty."

 

 

 

Right, and what is that duty? Plus, the most important point do your duty and renounce the fruits to Krishna -- then its qualified as yoga otherwise its just fruitive labour (karmii).

Hare Krishna

 

This is poles apart from the vaishnava understanding. This "Spiritual Ocean" is just Brahmajyoti which is the effulgence of the Supreme Lord. Reaching it (or sayujya moksha) is akin to spiritual suicide for the devotees for then the jiva remains bereft of rasa for eternity, and never attains the real platform of svarup-siddhi.

Hare Krishna

 

 

ok, i understand nobody knows about the truth.

 

 

 

why? the Divine Acharyas have given the perfect knowledge of these pastimes.

Sri Sri Radha is the personal energy of the Lord, and so cannot be compared to normal jiva souls which constitute the marginal energy. Their pastimes are expression of trascendental rasa on the spiritual platform, much beyond what is normally understood by swavikalpa/nirvakalpa states (or what is understood by paramananda/yogananda etc. in those). The question of moksha does not arise in the case of Sri Radha.

Hare Krishna

 

Krsna dasa prabhuji is only quoting the scriptures; it is you who are speculating. You are right Lord Rama also suffered and if it suits you, you can imagine that to be like a suffering in the material realm. Everything that is in the material world is coming from the spiritual realm, thus suffering, anger etc. are also in the spiritual world but they are blissful !! One really has to experience to believe it, and the devotees here know this well.

 

Why don't you ask here as to how to get started to try and understand these things; or do you have some other motive in mind?

Hare Krishna

 

 

Are there any mature people out there who can convince me that you guys deserve to be taken seriously?

 

 

 

Please don't be so arrogant otherwise devotees here will even reject your entrance into the philosophy, what to talk of trying to convince. But if incorrect accusations are made then we do have to respond.

Hare Krishna

 

 

Muslims consider it their duty to help fellow human beings, whereas westerners and hindus refuse to help, and think it is the govt.'s job.

 

 

 

What do you consider as helping fellow human beings? Forcibly converting others? See, don't let this pandora's box open.

 

 

That's just a conjecture. There is no basis for it. Give me evidence and I'll consider it. And oh, control your anger if you want to serve Allah (or Krishna).

 

 

 

Yes, and all your points and "advaita came from islam" etc. are conjectures which are wrong. Vaishnavas don't consider it important to shout from top all the atrocities committed by people dressed up as muslims for the centuries; rather they sincerely want to provide some spiritual knowledge and taste to one and all.

btw, islam is similiar to advaita; i can't believe your ignorance. You are commiting the greatest blasphemy in Islam by saying that man is the same as God !!!

Okay, so go and first read some more. I guess you thought advaita means that there is one God, you really have no idea. All the philosophies derived from Vedas say there is one God; advaita says all are God while dvaita says jiva and God and eternally different identities.

Hare Krishna

 

 

but many others, including Hindus, Jains, Buddhists etc. simply chant, pray, perform rituals and leave it at that. It is pathetic because they dont understand the meaning of life.

 

 

 

We seem to be coming closer to the point. Kindly let us know what you consider to be the meaning of life. btw if you have not guessed already, you should have known by now that none of the points you listed are even remotely correct. I don't think the devotees will have anything to do with analyzing all your points before some decency is there in the exchange. Why are you avoiding the question of your intention to post this here? Are you wanting to show the vaishnavas/hindus/... to be pathetic. If you are even remotely sincere, then take up specific points and have a discussion trying to understand; else what kind of replies do you expect from such a post.

Hare Krishna

 

Okay, maybe i am a fool to be typing here but the question is why are you announcing this here; whats your intent. You think that Gaudiya Vaishnavas only chant Hare Krishna and escape; you can imagine whatever you like (if they indeed escape from this plane to the spiritual plane then it is the perfection !!).

 

 

Real religion covers all aspects of life, where chanting would have its rightful place. To focus only on love of god, chanting etc. has made hindus/hare krishans's a very pathetic community. Please broaden your outlook.

 

 

 

First learn something about gaudiya vaishnavism and then write. If you wish to learn some specifics of the life in Vaishnavism or what love for Godhead means you are welcome to ask questions. But, the point remains that you gave no consideration to this point which you would also consider important by your standards, or you think that just to spend life somehow on this plane is all in all.

Hare Krishna

 

Congratulations. I thought religion was aimed at achieving love for Godhead and there is no consideration of that; please concentrate on that aspect more.

anyway what is the meaning of announcing this here.

Hare Krishna and dandavats

 

Both the links have an extra . at the end, removing it and then reloading gets the pages.

Hare Krishna

 

Yes, consent is His but the desire is our own. On our own we have no existence what to speak of any power to do anything, so the Super Soul aids to fulfil our desires (whether appropriate or inappropriate) in accordance with the laws of nature and thus the responsibility is solely in our hands. Of course, when we have totally surrendered to the Lord, the desire and consent are one and the same -- that of the Lord.

Hare Krishna and dandavats

 

This is explained by Srila BhaktiSiddhanta Saraswati as follows:

The soul is in a state comparable to the state of slumber, then the non-self viz. mind/senses/intellect take over and instead of serving the master viz. the soul work to their own whims. The nature of soul is pure unadulterated causeless love for God, but is not manifest in conditioned state.

Hare Krishna,

 

Oh, there are all kinds of theories -- Aryans came from around Mediterranean or from Arctic region and many more i can hardly remember. This set of theories were set in motion by Max Mueller and Germans added their own sets of imaginations. The "proofs" more or less runs as follows:

1) Vedic texts mention victories of Devas over Asuras

i.e. Devas == (heros of) Aryans; Asuras == original inhabitants

Similiarly Aryans defeating dasyus; there is mention of the dravida land (that beyond the Vindhya range) so asuras/dasyus == dravidians. Thus aryans came and pushed the original inhabitants to the dravida region.

and more similiar "proofs" you would not want to hear

2) Some skeletons in the indus valley civilization of persons who seem to have been killed in war/calamaties. Thus they must be in the war with Aryans.

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

Thanks prabhu for your explanations. I have read in many a places in Srila Prabhupada writings that Bharata-varsha actually refers to the whole world -- atleast that was the case uptil Maharaja Parakshit, though the land around Ganges receives more "bias".

Hare Krishna

 

The 64 transcendental qualities of Krishna (and others) are given in Nector of Devotion Chapters 21 and 22 -- http://nectarofdevotion.com ; the details of the scriptural sources of these must be in Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu (which i have not read).

 

Lord Shiva is described thus in Brahma-Samhita 5.45:

"Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Shambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction."

purport has more: http://brahmasamhita.com/5/45/en

Hare Krishna

 

It is described in the purport of SB 10.89.57

 

 

Lord Maha-Vishnu appeared before Krishna and Arjuna as bhuma, the supremely opulent one, and as parameshthinam prabhuh, the Lord of multitudes of Brahmas ruling over millions of universes. With solemn authority He spoke in such a way as to bewilder Arjuna, in obedience to Sri Krishna's intention. His smile hinted at His private thoughts, which Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti has revealed for our benefit: "My dear Krishna, by Your desire I will describe My superiority, even though I am Your expansion. At the same time, however, I will subtly imply in My statements the supreme position of Your beauty, character and power and the fact that You are the source from which I emanate. Just see how clever I am -- that in front of Arjuna I am confidentially divulging My true identity as nondifferent from You."

 

 

 

Also SB 10.89.62: "Having seen the domain of Lord Vishnu, Arjuna was totally amazed. He concluded that whatever extraordinary power a person exhibits can only be a manifestation of Sri Krishna's mercy."

(see also the full purport)

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

"since Garbodakasayi Visnu is source of Karanadakasayi Vishnu."

The other way round; Karanodakasayi Vishnu (or Maha-Vishnu) is the first Purusha Avataara from whom all the universes emerge.

See http://vedabase.net/sb/1/3/2/en1

It is explained precisely in Brahma-Samhita. See starting from here http://brahmasamhita.com/5/10/en through to

http://brahmasamhita.com/5/20/en

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

"since Garbodakasayi Visnu is source of Karanadakasayi Vishnu."

The other way round; Karanodakasayi Vishnu (or Maha-Vishnu) is the first Purusha Avataara from whom all the universes emerge.

See http://vedabase.net/sb/1/3/2/en1

It is explained precisely in Brahma-Samhita. See starting from here http://brahmasamhita.com/5/10/en through to

http://brahmasamhita.com/5/20/en.

Hare Krishna

please accept my dandavat pranam

 

Actually i am also in a position as yourself, trying to make head and tail of the vast knowledge concerning the spiritual. The description of "sin" is what little i learnt from the words of the acharyas. May i suggest you to read some books by Srila BhaktiVedanta Swami Prabhupada which explain these things beautifully and logically. I found this small book "Perfect Questions and Perfect Answers" http://www.hare-krishna.org/books/perfectanswers.zip really helpful. Other books are available for download here

http://www.hare-krishna.org/srila-prabhupada-books.htm (the Bhagavad Gita as it is, is a must of course; you will have to install the fonts available there first)