Indradyumna_das

The new article: Srila Prabhupada and His Transcendental Realisations: To read: http://www.russianpaintings.net/prabhupada_eng.htm To download in MS Word 2003 format: http://www.russianpaintings.net/prabhupada_eng.zip

Please, read the article by Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami Maharaja: Disciplic Succession (Sampradaya) Some quotes from the article The meaning of 'sampradaya' is defined as knowledge descending in the chain of consecutive spiritual masters. Other than this definition it can be used to denote societies, associations and groups of people. Once, it has been said that some discussions were going on with Madhva and other Sankarite scholars at Markanikaya ghat, all of them who were observing vows of fasting. Suddenly from the sky, like a blue cloud, Sri Vyasadeva appeared in the presence of all as witness and rejected all Sankara's ideology while accepting the philosophy of Sri Madhva. Srimad Baladeva Prabhu has formulated nine proverbial statements, which have been verified by Sriman Mahaprabhu in His instructions to His close followers and which are accepted as the supreme principles of Vedanta philosophy… Pure devotion means to be free from all selfish desires related to fruitive activity, independent search for knowledge, etc. To read, please, follow: http://russianpaintings.net/parapmara_eng.htm To download in MS Word 2003 format: http://russianpaintings.net/sampradaya_eng.zip

Actually, I tired to repeat that I'm not the member of camps' consciousness. My reason that if I have any doubts I'm trying to solve them. I had two doubts: 1. Should one in the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta think that shiksa-guru (and siksa) is more importent that diksa-guru (and diksa). I was asking different questions here to clear my doubts but failured. You all are so busy in camps' consciousness. Then finally I've found the answer from the disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta (read below). About my second doubt (about the principles of making up bhagavata-siksa-parampara of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta) I'll write in the next message. ************* TRIDANDISWAMI B.K. SANTA MAHARAJ FOUNDER & PRESIDENT SRI CHAITANYA ASHRAM 23, BHUPEN ROY ROAD BEHALA, CALCUTTA-34 DATED-7/10/2001 Dear (beloved) Bodhayan Maharaj, Herein I wrote the answers to your questions that you informed dear Sankara through phone. Acknowledge me of it's receipt. Question No.1 What kind of importance a Siksa Guru and a Diksa Guru can have? Answer: Though, according to the nature of Guru-tattva (the Guru-Principle) the Siksa Guru and the Diksa Guru are considered as non-different from each other, yet, the importance of Diksa Guru is understood to be more than the other. Because the Diksa Guru is the combination of both aspects-that of Diksa and Siksa as well. Siksa Guru can be many, but Diksa Guru is only one. Please Note that a Siksa Guru is acceptable only if his teachings or precepts is considered favourable and harmonious to/with the Diksa Guru's teachings/precepts. In this connection, you carefully read and analyse into Guru Tattva described in Sri Chaitanya Charitamrta, Adi-Lila, Ch-1, verse 27-29. Question No. 2 While compared between Siksa Guru and Diksa Guru---whose honour is greater in the eye of a disciple or devotee? Answer: It is Diksa Guru whose honour/respect is superior to all. Question No. 3 Is it that a Diksa Guru is accepted to be served by his disciple? Answer: Serving his Sri Guru-Padapadma is the only duty of a disciple. But, at first, one has to understand about the definition of service---"What is service?" The nature of genuine service from (of) a disciple to his Sri Gurudev is none other than fulfilling his heart's desire and the heart's desire of Sri Gurudeva can be none other than the pure service-interest of his worshipable Lord. Therefore remaining under the shelter and guidance of Sri Gurudeva when an obedient disciple will be engaged in the devotional service to his (Sri Gurudeva's) worshipable Lord, only then, his (disciple's) acceptance of a spiritual master will be considered as fruitful. Question No. 4 Is it that one has to take mantra initiation and go through other official/traditional initiation rituals separately at the time of his acceptance of a Siksa Guru? Answer: No, There is no such scriptural instruction. In this regard,please consult that chapter in Srimad Bhagavatam where in Lord Krishna's last instruction to Sri Uddhava the subject-matter--- ' 24 Siksa Gurus of Avadhuta' has been discussed.

Sri Jahnavi Mata is in Parampara of Srila Bhakivinoda Thakur. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur is in Parampara of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Bhaktivedanta. Does it mean that one can receive diksa (which is of less importance then siksa according to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta)in the line of Jahnavi Mata and then accept siksa in the line of Srila Bhatisiddhanta?

I'm not the member of camps' consciousness. Also I think that it's proper to name yourself first. Jahnava Thakurani is the first in parampara of Bhaktivinoda Thakur. It said in his writings. Caitanya is the Lord. And He empowered Sri Nityanada Prabhu (who is primeval and original Guru), Sri Jahnavi Mata, Sri Advaita Acarya, Sri Gopal Bhatta Gosvami and some others to start their lines of diksa-parampara. Diksa means not only ritualistic ceremony, but imparting the divya gyan (through Gopal gayatri and Kama Gayatri) and that is according to the teaching af bhagavatas (for example, six goswamis of Vrindavana). 1. How can you check if that is real flow? 2. Why not to include Sri Jahnava Mata (for example)? And so on...

The example of Madhva is not the main point of that discussion. The one of my questions above were whom should we include and whom exclude brom bhagavata-suksa-parampara??

1. 1. As I know from sastra, there is only one diksa-guru. And there are many siksa-gurus. Then what is the criterion following which one should produce bhagavata-siksa-parampara? Whom should he include in this parampara and whom should exclude? And what should I consider a proper siksa? Personalities such as Srinivasa Acarya and Syamananda Pandit, who were among the most prominent preachers of the Gosvami granthas, and Jahnava Thakurani, who was the crest-jewel of all Gaudiyas in the post-Gosvami era, have been excluded from this parampara. On the other hand, persons such as Aksobhya, Jayatirtha, Jnanasindhu, Dayanidhi, Vidyanidhi, Rajendra, Jayadharma, Purusottama, Brahmanya Tirtha and Vyasa Tirtha have been included in the parampara. Can you explain how they have contributed to the siksa-parampara of Gaudiya Matha? I think if parampara means a collection of the most prominent individuals who have influenced the Gaudiya tradition, you would do well to remove the aforementioned ten persons (with all due respect to these maha-bhagavatas) and replace them with Gaudiya mahajanas such as Gadadhara, Srivasa, Gopala Bhatta, Raghunatha Bhatta, Jahnava Thakurani, Syamananda, Srinivasa, Virabhadra, Krishna Mishra and Radha Krishna Das, who have had a considerable influence in our history. Well, we should admit that there was no even an idea about the conception of bhagavata-siksa-parampara in the Goudiya Vaishnava tradition since Lord Caitanya and the six goswamis time before Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. Otherwise the six goswamis had to introduce that kind of parampara in their scriptures. But we see that any other acaryas except Srila Bhaktisiddhanta used and use to bring their diksa-parampara line instead of bhagavata-siksa parampara. None (except Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur) didn’t ever use the conception of bhagavata-siksa-parampara. And for traditional lines of Goudiya Vaisnavas it seems to be doubtful to accept it. We deal rather with Saraswati Vaisnavism then with traditional Goudiya Vaisnavism. For example, even Srila Bhaktivinoda used to adduce his diksa-parampara beginning from Sri Jahnavi Mata. 2. Before one chant diksa-mantra for purifying his heart, he should first glorify the guru-pranali (dika-guru parampara) coming up to Sri Nityananda, Sri Jahnavi Mata, Sri Advaita, Srila Gopala Bhatta Goswami or any other first acharya of his shcool. How can one do that if Srila Bhaktisiddhanta didn’t accept the reliability of diksa-parampara at his time and didn’t gave guru-pranali to his disciples? 3. If there is no any diksa-parampara before Srila Bhaktisiddhanta (because he didn't leave any in his writings for his disciples) should we think that we are free either accept or not diksa in our school and in any case the result will be the same? 4. Should we consider Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's teaching in full accordance with the teaching of six Goswamis and why? 5. If diksa is of less importance than siksa does it mean that one can receive harinam from one guru and diksa from another and siksa from one more guru?

Well, I’m freshman in spiritual life and on this forum. Please, forgive me if some questions which I’ll be asking were already been asked. But I want to know the following things: 1. As I know from sastra, there is only one diksa-guru. And there are many siksa-gurus. Then what is the criterion following which one should produce bhagavata-siksa-parampara? Whom should he include in this parampara and whom should exclude? And what should I consider a proper siksa? 2. There is nothing bad in that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu wasn’t included in the diksa parampara of Srila Sachidananda Bhaktivinoda Thakur. He is Lord and He is giving example. And the real diksa-parampara lines are going from His personal companions and His expansions who were authorized by Him to begin they own lines. They are: Sri Nityananda Prabhu, Sri Advaita Prabhu, Sri Jahnavi Mata (the wife of Lord Nityananda). Then why should Lord Caitanya personally be in diksa-parampara? 3. About Arjuna, Pariksit Maharaj etc.: There is no any diksa-parampara from them. Gita and Bhagavatam are siksa. But Gita and Bhagavatam aren’t the mantra (diksa) which gives the knowledge about my personal relationships with Krishna. How may one whithout diksa receive Gopala-mantru and Kama-gayatri?

But, to understand siksha-guru correctly one musy first accept initiation into spiritual life (diksha) according to the teaching of six gosvamis, Lord Chaitanya and other acharyas: Sri Catanya Caritamrita (Antya-lila 4.192), Lord Caitanya to Sanatana Goswami: dIkSA kAle bhakta kore Atma samarpaNa | sei kAle kRSNa tAte kore Atma sama || sei deha korena tAra cid-Anandamoy | aprAkRta dehe tAra caraNa bhajoy || “At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krishna accepts him to be as good as Himself. When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord." Then, what is guru-pranali (the parampara line on initiating (diksha) guru?) of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati? /images/graemlins/confused.gif The parampara line of Srila Bhaktivinoda is as follows (found in his works): 1. (Nityananda Prabhu) Jahnava Mata 2. Ramacandra Goswami 3 Rajavallabha Goswami 4. Kesavacandra Goswami 5. Rudresvara Goswami 6. Dayarama Goswami 7. Mahesvari Goswamini 8. Gunamanjari Goswamini 9. Ramamani Goswamini 10. Yajnesvara Goswami 11. Vipina Vihari Goswami 12. Bhaktivinoda Thakur

As I know, there is no any diksa-parampara in Siddhanta Saraswati teaching school. There is only bhagavata-shiksha parampara, which members lived in different times and even did't know that they would be in Saraswati Bhagavata-shiksa parampara presented by him. Does it work? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

My thoughts in short: Freedom ends when(where) the love begins.

I am prayed to Gurudev for you. I hope they will help you and the problem will be solved soon. ys